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Social services takes baby from the womb

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C

ChainedMaster

Banned
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/10486452/Child-taken-from-womb-by-social-services.html

A pregnant woman has had her baby forcibly removed by caesarean section by social workers.
Essex social services obtained a High Court order against the woman that allowed her to be forcibly sedated and her child to be taken from her womb.
The council said it was acting in the best interests of the woman, an Italian who was in Britain on a work trip, because she had suffered a mental breakdown.
The baby girl, now 15 months old, is still in the care of social services, who are refusing to give her back to the mother, even though she claims to have made a full recovery.
The case has developed into an international legal row, with lawyers for the woman describing it as “unprecedented”.

They claim that even if the council had been acting in the woman’s best interests, officials should have consulted her family beforehand and also involved Italian social services, who would be better-placed to look after the child.
Brendan Fleming, the woman’s British lawyer, told The Sunday Telegraph: “I have never heard of anything like this in all my 40 years in the job.
“I can understand if someone is very ill that they may not be able to consent to a medical procedure, but a forced caesarean is unprecedented.
“If there were concerns about the care of this child by an Italian mother, then the better plan would have been for the authorities here to have notified social services in Italy and for the child to have been taken back there.”
The case, reported by Christopher Booker in his column in The Sunday Telegraph, raises fresh questions about the extent of social workers’ powers.
It will be raised in Parliament this week by John Hemming, a Liberal Democrat MP. He chairs the Public Family Law Reform Coordinating Campaign, which wants reform and greater openness in court proceedings involving family matters.
He said: “I have seen a number of cases of abuses of people’s rights in the family courts, but this has to be one of the more extreme.
“It involves the Court of Protection authorising a caesarean section without the person concerned being made aware of what was proposed. I worry about the way these decisions about a person’s mental capacity are being taken without any apparent concern as to the effect on the individual being affected.”
The woman, who cannot be named for legal reasons, is an Italian national who come to Britain in July last year to attend a training course with an airline at Stansted Airport in Essex.
She suffered a panic attack, which her relations believe was due to her failure to take regular medication for an existing bipolar condition.
She called the police, who became concerned for her well-being and took her to a hospital, which she then realised was a psychiatric facility.
She has told her lawyers that when she said she wanted to return to her hotel, she was restrained and sectioned under the Mental Health Act.
Meanwhile, Essex social services obtained a High Court order in August 2012 for the birth “to be enforced by way of caesarean section”, according to legal documents seen by this newspaper.
The woman, who says she was kept in the dark about the proceedings, says that after five weeks in the ward she was forcibly sedated. When she woke up she was told that the child had been delivered by C-section and taken into care.
In February, the mother, who had gone back to Italy, returned to Britain to request the return of her daughter at a hearing at Chelmsford Crown Court.
Her lawyers say that she had since resumed taking her medication, and that the judge formed a favourable opinion of her. But he ruled that the child should be placed for adoption because of the risk that she might suffer a relapse.
The cause has also been raised before a judge in the High Court in Rome, which has questioned why British care proceedings had been applied to the child of an Italian citizen “habitually resident” in Italy. The Italian judge accepted, though, that the British courts had jurisdiction over the woman, who was deemed to have had no “capacity” to instruct lawyers.
Lawyers for the woman are demanding to know why Essex social services appear not have contacted next of kin in Italy to consult them on the case.
They are also upset that social workers insisted on placing the child in care in Britain, when there had been an offer from a family friend in America to look after her.
An expert on social care proceedings, who asked not to be named because she was not fully acquainted with the details of the case, described it as “highly unusual”.
She said the council would first have to find “that she was basically unfit to make any decision herself” and then shown there was an acute risk to the mother if a natural birth was attempted.
An Essex county council spokesman said the local authority would not comment on ongoing cases involving vulnerable people and children.
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What the...
 
S

Sorian

Banned
Not going to lie, if you had put a G/A/F up, I would have been positive that the answer had to be georgia, alabama, or florida (ie I thought there was no way in hell this wasn't america).
 
E

Ether_Snake

安安安安安安安安安安安安安安安
The council said it was acting in the best interests of the woman, an Italian who was in Britain on a work trip, because she had suffered a mental breakdown.
Click to expand...

Yeah, that's gonna help...
 
W

Wafflecakes

Member
Sorian said:
Not going to lie, if you had put a G/A/F up, I would have been positive that the answer had to be georgia, alabama, or florida (ie I thought there was no way in hell this wasn't america).
Click to expand...

...I love mocking the south, but I don't see it at all.
 
Jezbollah

Jezbollah

Member
This is fucking crazy. Social services over here have got to find a balance all the fucking time. With Baby P it was that they did too little. Here it seems like they've done too much.

All this happened virtually on my doorstep. Just left here shaking my head.
 
K

kick51

Banned
Sorian said:
Not going to lie, if you had put a G/A/F up, I would have been positive that the answer had to be georgia, alabama, or florida (ie I thought there was no way in hell this wasn't america).
Click to expand...



uhhhh no

the social workers would be scared shitless of a jillion dollar lawsuit

(which is good, but i still believe in tort reform)
 
F

Funky Papa

FUNK-Y-PPA-4
I may need more sources. The Telegraph is known for outright bullshitting anything related to the NHS and/or social services.
 
T

Transhuman

Unconfirmed Member
I feel like there's a piece of information missing that makes this decision sane, but if she didn't try to hurt the baby or herself (and thus by natural consequence, the baby) during her panic attack, I can't see what the reasoning could possibly be for forcing a c-sec and taking the baby.
 
C

ChainedMaster

Banned
Transhuman said:
I feel like there's a piece of information missing that makes this decision sane, but if she didn't try to hurt the baby or herself (and thus by natural consequence, the baby) during her panic attack, I can't see what the reasoning could possibly be for forcing a c-sec and taking the baby.
Click to expand...

Sane? Maybe. Justifiable? No.
 
C

CTLance

Member
That is sickening. No matter how effed in the head the poor woman was before, this course of events has ensured she'll have suffered severe trauma and will probably need in-depth counseling for quite some time. You don't just take a kid from its mother, especially not in this way. Holy crap. What is wrong with some people.
 
D

demon

I don't mean to alarm you but you have dogs on your face
Maybe I'm missing it but how far into the pregnancy was she?
 
T

Transhuman

Unconfirmed Member
ChainedMaster said:
Sane? Maybe. Justifiable? No.
Click to expand...

If she ever attempted or expressed a desire to hurt herself or the baby it would be justifiable (though it doesn't say so in the article, so she probably didn't do either). The judge upholding that social services keep the child away from the mother after she is mentally healthy, that's the shit that doesn't seem justifiable.
 
K

kirblar

Member
Not contacting Italian social services and handing the child over to them (and then, presumably, a member of the family who could care for the child) is ridiculous.
 
C

Clegg

Member
The story I've heard is that she's bipolar and wasn't taking her medication. I can see why there would have been concern for the safety of the child. But forcibly removing the baby from the womb and not returning it even after the mother has recovered? That's appalling.

Hopefully this is a case of the Telegraph cherry picking its information.
 
D

Dr.Guru of Peru

played the long game
ChainedMaster said:
Sane? Maybe. Justifiable? No.
Click to expand...
Sure it can. A ton of information is missing to make this story as perplexing and infuriating as possible.

Agitated people are commonly sedated in hospitals if they pose a risk to themselves or others. It may sound harsh, but its the safest option for everyone. There are also plenty of medical reasons to opt for a cesarean section over a vaginal delivery, and if the mother was not in the frame of mind to consent for medial treatment then it would be up to a pubic guardian and trustee to make that decision for her. There is nothing to suggest the child was removed prematurely.

The child being removed from the custody of a mother in a psychiatric institution is a no-brainer.
 
The Cowboy

The Cowboy

Member
Reminds me of the social services devil worshipers case, they didn't take the kids from the womb (just WTF!), but if you haven't read about it - you really should.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/real_story/4595158.stm

It took 10 years to get some of the children back despite the parents being proven innocent. If you can find it I highly recommend the BBC documentary "When Satan came to town".
---
Simply put, the social services here is messed up, they either do to little or far to much it seems.
 
K

kirblar

Member
Dr.Guru of Peru said:
Sure it can. This is the telegraph, so naturally a ton of information missing to make this story as perplexing and infuriating as possible.

Agitated people are commonly sedated in hospitals if they pose a risk to themselves or others. It may sound harsh, but its the safest option for everyone. There are also plenty of medical reasons to opt for a cesarean section over a vaginal delivery, and if the mother was not in the frame of mind to consent for medial treatment then it would be up to a pubic guardian and trustee to make that decision for her.

The child being removed from the custody of a mother in a psychiatric institution is a no-brainer.
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It's funny how the headline-grabbing parts are actually the most likely to be reasonable, while its the aftermath that makes you wonder WTF is going on.
 
T

timetokill

Banned
Truly horrifying.

Sorian said:
Not going to lie, if you had put a G/A/F up, I would have been positive that the answer had to be georgia, alabama, or florida (ie I thought there was no way in hell this wasn't america).
Click to expand...

You might have a touch too much hate for the south. I don't know what would give you this idea.
 
B

Bo-Locks

Member
Funky Papa said:
I may need more sources. The Telegraph is known for outright bullshitting anything related to the NHS and/or social services.
Click to expand...

This isn't really fair.

This hasn't got anything to do with the NHS and there have been many high profile failings of social services in Britain in which children have ended up dead, being raped etc due to social service's incompetence. There have also been many, many investigations into these incidents, and the phrase "lessons have been learned" has now become almost ubiquitous with social services and their failings.

And these reports/investigations don't just stem from centre-right newspapers sticking the boot in, social services have come under a lot of pressure from all quarters of the government and media. Notice in the article that a Liberal MP is due to raise the issue in parliament next week.

That being said, I have no idea about the details of this case and I would also like to see more sources, but I think it's foolish to simply dismiss reports like this because they come from a centre-right source, especially during a time when social services are already under a lot of scrutiny.

The Telegraph is a legitimate source, you just have to understand that it comes with its own slant, as does every newspaper and news source.

Regarding this story, under exceptional circumstances I can understand why a bipolar pregnant woman may be sectioned, and possibly even have a court ordered caesarian if it was deemed to be in the balanced interests of the Mother and baby, but at a bare minimum social services seem to have failed in not contacting the woman's family in Italy and trying to return the baby to a stable home there. But to be fair, this seems like just as much of a legal battle as a failure of social services.
 
Q

questionmark

Member
Without knowing the details of her mental breakdown, I can't really say for certain whether this was wrong or right. It does sound like they may have gone overboard though.
 
W

Walshicus

Member
Yeah, I've got a feeling that as more information on this comes out... a lot of opinions are going to reverse. It just reads like one of *those* stories.
 
S

Shao Kahn on the Lawn

Member
Sorian said:
Not going to lie, if you had put a G/A/F up, I would have been positive that the answer had to be georgia, alabama, or florida (ie I thought there was no way in hell this wasn't america).
Click to expand...

Not sure if you're from the United States but it takes an extraordinary amount of fucking up to have your children taken from you in this country.
 
S

Sorian

Banned
timetokill said:
You might have a touch too much hate for the south. I don't know what would give you this idea.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure why people think my jab is to the south in particular. It's always been explained to me that the G/A/F game is Germany, Austrailia, Florida and if you want to make it the american edition it is Georgia, Alabama, Florida. In this case I was pointing out the fact that this felt "Merica!" to me for some reason so I was going with the variant version of the game.

Edit: ^ And yes, I am from the US. How much fucking up before your child is taken from you is very debatable. For every article about a child who should have been taken from their parents 5 years ago there is one about how the state is perceived to be wrong in taking a child.
 
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