I don't think I've ever heard of this, so it'll be interesting what his article claims. He's saying the reason why the game has problems is because Sony (and presumably MS) allowed Cyberpunk to bypass some parts of certification. That's something so explosive I'd imagine it'd spark an official response from them.
Sony (and MS?) didn't subject Cyberpunk 2077 to full certification?
I don't think I've ever heard of this, so it'll be interesting what his article claims. He's saying the reason why the game has problems is because Sony (and presumably MS) allowed Cyberpunk to bypass some parts of certification. That's something so explosive I'd imagine it'd spark an official response from them.
I don't think the point is what is included in the TCR/TRCs these days. But if the platform holders gave CDPR a shortcut to publishing their game that other studios don't get, it can get pretty nasty.
Nikana
Go Go Neo Rangers!
You can apply for waivers of things that are damning.
Basically let's say something really fucked up is happening in cert but the game runs. You can go to the licensee, this case sony and microsoft, and say this will be fixed on day 1. We promise.
They say ok. It passes.
Basically let's say something really fucked up is happening in cert but the game runs. You can go to the licensee, this case sony and microsoft, and say this will be fixed on day 1. We promise.
They say ok. It passes.
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Burger
Member
Did they need a shortcut? It was submitted a long while before release.
Did CDPR lie about being able to address any issues? That's more interesting.
iamvin22
Industry Verified
I shouldn't speak on this but this is my work. I don't understand how this happened because ms and sony have a 3rd party compliance(cert) team that sits on EVERY game for a minimum of 3 weeks so how it passed makes no sense unless ms and sony say the preorder numbers and just ignored the problems. I don't think both ignored issues but I do think cdpr was given way too much "ok we trust you". I've spoken to many and they can't understand how something like this passed cert so a lot of blame needs to be spread out cause this doesn't happen at all unless.....
Strider Highwind
Banned
Damn, thanks for the insight..Do you think the push to catch some holiday sales could have lead to this?
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
Cert is not the same as QA.
Cert is about preserving integrity and consistency of the Platform OS, not about bugs which affect performance and behavior.
e.g. gameplay bugs don't fall under cert, so you could have a game that runs at 1fps for prolonged periods and still pass. But if say a button prompt doesn't display the correct icon (i.e an Xbox/PC icon on a Playstation platform) then they'd get rejected.
Cert is about preserving integrity and consistency of the Platform OS, not about bugs which affect performance and behavior.
e.g. gameplay bugs don't fall under cert, so you could have a game that runs at 1fps for prolonged periods and still pass. But if say a button prompt doesn't display the correct icon (i.e an Xbox/PC icon on a Playstation platform) then they'd get rejected.
Agnostic2020
Member
The last delay after it went gold apparently was because it failed the certification for sony and probably ms
ethomaz
Banned
I can only guess promises.
Sony and MS probably send a report showing all the issues they found on Cyberpunk 2077.
CDPR told than they will have a big day one patch to fix most if not all issues.
Sony and MS looked at the preorders bar and said "Ok but you need to fix all of that in the day one patch".
So they certified a promise to have a game finished at day one.
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yurinka
Member
If the game has been released with a ton of bugs and shitty performance it's only CD Project's fault. Sony and MS are not related at all to this mess.
Sony and MS certification only ask devs to fix huge bugs or standards related stuff like the game doesn't brick the console, the game doesn't break the HDD, it reacts in a certain way when you connect or disconnect stuff like a pad or LAN cable in certain ways, it uses trophies/achievements as expected by the standard, it handles console users as expected by standard, etc.
Beyond this kind of stuff Sony and MS don't try to find bugs or analyze performance or resolution for any game. They don't give a fuck regarding flying cars, stuck NPCs and stuff like that, it's something that the QA team of the publisher/dev must find and the dev coders must fix. The publisher and the dev are the only ones who decide if a game is in good shape to be released regarding performance and bugs.
MS, Sony, Nintendo or Valve won't spend hundreds or thousands of hours per game for all the dozens of games released every week on their platforms.
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iamvin22
Industry Verified
absolutely. I'm treading lightly hear because I do no there are some that are watching.
Craig of War
Banned
Things keeps getting worst and worst for CDPR 2020 the year that keeps on giving.
iamvin22
Industry Verified
wrong! this is my rib eye. yes, each platform has its own trcs list that differs BUT!!!! there is no way that some from 1st part cert and compliance would not raise a concern including the devs own compliance team. some devs, well most devs don't have cert team. they rely on their own compliance team which is usually shit.
iamvin22
Industry Verified
this is exactly what I think happened. they both just trusted cdpr with day 1 patch without even testing it which is fvckinng bad. this doesn't bold well for gamers going forward because platform makers are allowing specific devs to get away with fixs without propper compliance(cert).
Handy Fake
Member
I think CDPR are showing their true colours when something goes wrong. They've been riding a wave of critical acclaim and obviously aren't equipped to deal with negative critical feedback and start throwing blame around.
It's this generation's John Romero.
It's this generation's John Romero.
MrFunSocks
Banned
Certification has never been quality control like you're talking about, it's just "does it run on the console without breaking the console" essentially.
yurinka
Member
The tester from certification (on platform holder's side) may notify the dev -or not- that found certain bug not listed in the console's TRC checklist that mentions the stuff needed to be certified. But that won't block the game from getting certification, because certification is only to make sure the game doesn't break the console and follows certain standards for using stuff like gamepads, trophies, console user management, etc.
The platform holder's certification team doesn't need to find bugs or to block a game's certification because it has too much bugs (other than the super important specific ones included in the TRC like the game bricking the console or corrupting the HDD stuff) or if its performance sucks.
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Burger
Member
It certainly was before games got patches delivered to them constantly.
That's what the Nintendo Seal of Quality was.
iamvin22
Industry Verified
I don't know about you and how you do your work but if I spot something that is outside of my job I alert the project manager and devs. I have stopped a few games from reaching launch because I found "bugs" put side trcs/ tcr that would be end-user, not acceptable. we have a job to do. just because you are in a specific department doesn't mean you don't alert the devs of a highly potential critical.
iamvin22
Industry Verified
Nintendo, out of the platform makers is by far the worst to work with. they used tools to find LOT checks that they didn't provide to partners which in the end would increase delays and ultimately make devs just not want to work with them. shitty company if you asked me.
Sejan
Member
Its simply not possible for Sony, MS , or Nintendo to play QA. Games have simply grown exponentially bigger and more complex than the days of the Nintendo seal of quality. This problem is compounded by the sheer number of games releasing on each system. It would take thousands more employees to even attempt to do that.
The most anyone can do is send a bug report and get assurances that any major problems will be ironed out by launch.
The best thing that any of us can do is punish the companies that release games in this sort of broken state. Get your refund to make a statement.
The most anyone can do is send a bug report and get assurances that any major problems will be ironed out by launch.
The best thing that any of us can do is punish the companies that release games in this sort of broken state. Get your refund to make a statement.
MrFunSocks
Banned
iamvin22
Industry Verified
absolutely.
TheGejsza
Member
Ok I can agree with the parts that the image quality, bugs or performance is something that certification does not give a flying fuck. But what about crashes? They can potentially damage the console. I am currently not playing CP77 because I am afraid that those constant crashes will brick my consoles.
I am playing on PS system since PS1 and I have never seen another game which crashes so often. Hell I don't think I had more than 10 crashes since I had PS3 up untill CP77 release week (can't remember ps1 and ps2 properly but I used pirated versions back then so still invalid set of data).
So what about those crashes? What about 1+ min X-one freezes?
I am playing on PS system since PS1 and I have never seen another game which crashes so often. Hell I don't think I had more than 10 crashes since I had PS3 up untill CP77 release week (can't remember ps1 and ps2 properly but I used pirated versions back then so still invalid set of data).
So what about those crashes? What about 1+ min X-one freezes?
yurinka
Member
I think it's pretty obvious that everyone at CD Project knew that the game was not in a shape to be published. Their testers and coders for sure said: this game can't be released like this, it needs at least 3 or 6 months more to fix stuff.
The certification guy from Sony or MS for sure said: here you have the greenlight because your game has all the checks in our checklist, but we personally wouldn't release it in this shape, we suggest you to fix many bugs before but we can't block you from releasing your game because you already check all our checklist stuff.
But CD Project management decided to release it for whatever reasons they had (maybe they ran out of budget and weren't able to get another delay or to make the last one longer, had pressure from investors, stakeholders, MS having the marketing rights and demanding to have it for XSX launch because Halo was delayed, Ouya pressuring because also paid a shit ton of money to have it at launch, the publishers of the retail version because paid a ton of money for the game and expected to have X revenue this quarter, etc.
spawn
Member
It might be just like the ESRB. The ESRB does not fully play the games because they don't have the time to play every game. The dev or publisher submits a video showing just the worst parts of their game and the ESRB trusts the dev or publisher that their showing them the worst parts.
Kataploom
Gold Member
I don't it only had to do with preorders and "trust", but the could also be a fear of the other having the game earlier which would put them in disadvantage
#Phonepunk#
Banned
wut this seems like some dumb bs i just bought Immortals: Fenyx Rising and it has the same epileptic warning as at the start of Cyberpunk. what is he even talking about.
But this game crashes like crazy on PS4/PS5 atleast, and not always to dashboard but sometimes together with OS and this could brick console easily.
MS and Sony also partially responsible for this mess, because they take fairly big chunk of revenue from this turd.
Nah.
Sony is a bit controlling when it comes to certifications. Cyberpunk got pushed back BECAUSE they failed it with Sony. MS is pretty chill when it comes to it and only expects this.
That scene in particular was likely more fucking intense back then and Sony saw it now as "good enough"
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ArtHands
Thinks buying more servers can fix a bad patch
To be honest that's my current speculation as well. It is odd that the game slipped past the widely known certification check on (Playstation console) that was suppose to see if the game runs fine as well (of course I think there are other previous examples).
And now some people are claiming that the check is bare minimum and only serves to make sure the game is bootable on PS console or break the console?
Various publishers receives various special treatments from Sony frequently, so it won't be surprising to see Sony giving them preference treatment in terms of full certification. Especially if its multi-platform release, and I can imagine Sony closing an eye because they don't want CDPR to delay the Playstation release while the game gets release on XBox and PC on time as that will result in multi-platform players (who don't want to wait) to buy the game on XBox/PC.
And now some people are claiming that the check is bare minimum and only serves to make sure the game is bootable on PS console or break the console?
Various publishers receives various special treatments from Sony frequently, so it won't be surprising to see Sony giving them preference treatment in terms of full certification. Especially if its multi-platform release, and I can imagine Sony closing an eye because they don't want CDPR to delay the Playstation release while the game gets release on XBox and PC on time as that will result in multi-platform players (who don't want to wait) to buy the game on XBox/PC.
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GreatnessRD
Member
The only certification these big corps are concerned about is when will the check be cut.
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
I'm pretty sure both MS / Sony drastically reduced their certification processes years ago; they used to charge way more because it was basically them doing decent QA on a game, but now they do it much quicker and cheaper and that implies way less actual vetting.
yurinka
Member
Games can't be published on PS4 without Sony's certification. If the game got the gold and has been published on PS4 is beause Sony gave them the ok.
The game was delayed several times -and needed a longer or another delay- because now it needs a ton of work fixing and optimizing stuff. So months ago they had way more stuff to fix and optimize. And the game is developed by CD Project, so they are the ones who need to optimize find and fix bugs and decide if the game is in good enought shape to be released, not Sony.
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This. Im surprised people is wondering if CDPR had a special treatments, when things as "Pillars of eternity 2" was released on PS4 and One. For people who don't know, the port of Pillars of Eternity 2 on consoles its much much much worse than Cyberpunk on base consoles.
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zwiggelbig
Member
Its almost no different then games like fallout76 that gets launched buggy as fuck and gets patched up in the comming months. Its going to be a new trend that wont just fade away. Just look what sony says about the refunds. ''ýea yea, bla bla they have 2 patches in 2 months you just wait for that!''
Sony/MS have final say on what gets released on their consoles. They're the gatekeepers. They left the gate open and looked the other way.
Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
My guess is they checked the trc and it passed so they gave the greenlight anyway.
AllBizness
Banned
A thread based on a Jeff Grubb tweet? Come on breh dude is a mad Xbox fanboy and has it in for Sony.
Radical_3d
Member
I don't know MS, but Sony droped the certification process halfway the PS4 generation to be "indie friendly". What that really meaned is "we love the Steam and phone model and want our piece of cake in our hugely successful platform". Very sad move and a proove that the current management doesn't live up to the Ken's legacy. Which led to a lot of crapware and indie sub-standards to flood the PSN. And eventually to this:
So yeah... CP2077 was off the hook from the very beginning. It was up to CDPR to lauch something accordingly to their credit.
So yeah... CP2077 was off the hook from the very beginning. It was up to CDPR to lauch something accordingly to their credit.
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hemo memo
You can't die before your death
They added that in with a patch didn't they? Because Game Informer who wrote that article and had a seizure playing the game said the game didn't have a warning anywhere.
Edit: Yeah it was added in a patch:
Cyberpunk 2077 sequences may cause seizures, developer patches in new warning
Also Jeff in the latest Giantbomb podcast explained how CDPR got their certification by promising Sony (and Microsoft?) they'll have the issues solve before release. He said it is a standard companies used even before patches and he mentioned an old Tomb Raider game. In Cyberpunk case, CDPR fail the promise.
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iamvin22
Industry Verified
Yea but that's still wrong. You have to keep the quality of the game at a playable level.