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Sony chief warns technical problems persist for cloud gaming


Sony’s chief executive has warned that cloud gaming is still technically “very tricky”, playing down the risk to the console maker of the industry quickly converting to a technology on which its rival Microsoft has bet heavily.

In an interview with the Financial Times, Kenichiro Yoshida said the PlayStation creator would still study “various options” in the future for streaming games over the internet itself, adding it could utilise GT Sophy, its artificial intelligence agent, to enhance cloud gaming.

"I think cloud itself is an amazing business model, but when it comes to games, the technical difficulties are high,” said Yoshida, citing latency — the fast response times demanded by gamers — as the biggest issue. “So there will be challenges to cloud gaming, but we want to take on those challenges.”

Despite various attempts to remake the gaming industry around the cloud, many users have yet to switch from a console or high-end gaming PC to streaming games entirely over the internet, fearing the lags that can be caused by slowing internet connectivity and server speeds.

Publishers have also not been fully supportive. In January, Google shut down its Stadia streaming service after most game producers held back from making their top titles available on the platform.

The promise of cloud gaming is still unfulfilled after more than a decade of development. Sony was one of the first big companies to enter the market, having acquired cloud gaming company Gaikai for $380mn in 2012 and later the technologies of its rival OnLive.

While it launched a cloud gaming subscription service in 2014 that is now integrated with its upgraded and expanded service PS Plus Premium, analysts say Sony has not capitalised on its early bet to establish itself as a leader in the field.

Yoshida also pointed to the costly inefficiencies of cloud gaming where servers are idle for much of the day before having to cope with the high levels of traffic of gamers playing during the evening or “dark time”. He added that Sony had responded by unleashing GT Sophy in the quiet hours to learn how to beat human competitors in the auto-racing simulator Gran Turismo.

“The dark time for cloud gaming had been an issue for Microsoft as well as Google, but it was meaningful that we were able to use those [quieter] hours for AI learning,” said Yoshida, speaking at the company’s headquarters in Tokyo.

He declined to comment on the impact Sony foresees from Microsoft’s $75bn agreed purchase of the publisher Activision, the company behind the Call of Duty and World of Warcraft game franchises, saying regulatory reviews were continuing.

But the deal has rattled the global gaming industry, where the US software company is engaged in a cut-throat battle with Sony for dominance of console gaming.

Industry and regulatory concerns have focused on whether Microsoft would make Activision’s games exclusive to its own cloud gaming service, a move that could potentially accelerate the shift away from consoles.

Last month, the UK competition regulator blocked the acquisition, concluding that the takeover would cement Microsoft’s dominance of the nascent cloud gaming market. According to Microsoft, its Xbox Cloud Gaming service has more than 20mn users.

The regulatory response has been mixed, however, with EU regulators clearing the purchase on the basis that Microsoft had made concessions to alleviate its concerns.

If it goes through, the deal would make Microsoft the third-biggest gaming company by revenue, behind China’s Tencent and Sony.
 

lh032

I cry about Xbox and hate PlayStation.
Cloud gaming, at most, will be alternate way to play games.

Replacing the non-cloud gaming way? i doubt it will happen in the next few decades.

As long latency and the possibility of disconnection exist, cloud gaming will never work for me as the main way to play games.
 

feynoob

Banned
Cloud gaming, at most, will be alternate way to play games.

Replacing the non-cloud gaming way? i doubt it will happen in the next few decades.

As long latency and the possibility of disconnection exist, cloud gaming will never work for me as the main way to play games.
Until you go to a vacation and start playing your games through cloud.

In 10 years from now on, they dynamics will be different.

I mean we have VR as a testimony for that.
 

lh032

I cry about Xbox and hate PlayStation.
Until you go to a vacation and start playing your games through cloud.

In 10 years from now on, they dynamics will be different.

I mean we have VR as a testimony for that.
that doesnt matter when latency is ass for me.
If the latency and connection quality is perfect? sure, why not.
 

feynoob

Banned
Isn't latency on GFN already comparable with consoles at 60 Hz and only a bit behind at 120 Hz?
It feels like a console to me sometimes.
Only issue is that at some instances, I get image refreshes, but that is a rare instance.

New worlds on GeForce felt like a PC experience, instead of a cloud experience.
 

Fess

Member
Isn't latency on GFN already comparable with consoles at 60 Hz and only a bit behind at 120 Hz?
I played through Tomb Raider, Rise of the Tomb Raider and Shadow of the Tomb Raider on the much hated on and now dead Stadia, with zero latency issues. Looked great, played great, at 60fps.

I think it all depends on your location, how far from a server you are.

I also used Geforce Now. Some micro-stutters aside it essentially felt like I played locally. I think the UI showed that I had like 17ms streaming latency.


Problem there was when I tried to play Cyberpunk at launch and was placed in a queue and couldn’t play at all because so many others tried to play it. And the user experience is absolutely terrible if you use 2FA and play on TV and has to type in codes, I used the phone as touch pad remote, not ideal.
 

BootsLoader

Banned
Cloud could work for countries with high internet services and stable connections. I live in Greece and there is not a chance I can live with cloud gaming here. The web infrastructure is dog water at its best.
 

hemo memo

You can't die before your death
@CMA

You read this?

px56n63a0ai01.png
 

Eotheod

Member
Essentially. So much for it apparently being this world ending apocalypse that Sony and select others had to tell CMA. Now with the deal essentially dead, it's not likely to be that big of a deal (and never should have been thought of as one). Plus the bundling of Game Pass numbers as being cloud users specifically was a straight lie.

Cloud gaming will be an alternative to the traditional style of play, not a replacement fully. Tangible goods are what humans love best, and get attached to in order to create memories/nostalgia. Remove that and you are left with convenience sure, but lack of real ownership is hard to sell.

With technologies like Starlink and low orbiting/laser delivery systems, we could see far quicker throughput in latency. The issue is it will take some time and probably be costly to get it to truly emulate physical response.
 

cireza

Member
It is almost as if cloud wasn't an appropriate technology for gaming, but people were dumb and decided to use it anyway.

How about using some common sense ?
 

X-Wing

Member
People who think this somehow makes CMA's case weaker should go and read the issues the CMA raised about cloud gaming. More precisely the 10 year contracts to have Activision content on rival service providers with said providers not being allowed to make any money on that, which would define future agreements for other cloud players.
This changes nothing.
 

PaintTinJr

Member
Isn't latency on GFN already comparable with consoles at 60 Hz and only a bit behind at 120 Hz?
It was screen tearing, which isn't a viable solution for the cloud service as a generalised rendering method to lower latency for gaming, no matter how much DF flip flop on the narrative of screen tearing when it can use the narrative against PlayStation (GT5 vs VRR & GFN)

The latency measurements are also unrepresentative of what 20m simultaneous console gamer connections will look like across a cross-gen or end of gen library, and more importantly the worst case scenario (in say the UK) of a cloud gamer in a rural area stuck with ADSL over eroded copper core from 1960's getting 10Mbit/s and the error rate from the eroded lines and ADSL encoding raising latency from resending packs.



In many ways the WiiU tablet controller and soon to be Project Q controller are a great way of technically transitioning to Cloud gaming IMO, prioritising local cloud play to get things working in ideal conditions and then users naturally bridging out further and further from the console - in the case of project Q - until they discover the source of a limiting problem - such as their own crappy switching latency on their home router, or in rural areas they might move to 5G - and if the problem makes it unworkable, to play, then they just acknowledge the range limitation. The general expectation of gamers has been using RemotePlay via mobile data in any random location and when it isn't good, we then naturally proclaim all cloud gaming is rubbish.
 
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killatopak

Gold Member
Stream latency is an addition to local latency.

Having 20ms displayed simply means an additional 20ms of latency on top of the local input delay.

The comparison how some streams have lower latency than local is simply because it is running on higher framerate than what is being compared to as well as having the best conditions like having high speed internet and testing close to a data center.

The comparison falls apart and goes back in favor of local when similar framerates are displayed.

As for competitive gaming, even miniscule of delays have a huge impact and has already been observed. Local servers are still required. Ex. League of Legends MSI/Worlds during the height of covid years.
 

Superkewl

Member
I used Geforce Now when Darktide came out and it worked great. I couldn't see any issues with it other than an occasional hiccup, however I have good internet.

I don't see cloud gaming being a mass market solution, unless there is some miracle breakthrough in the tech.
 

PaintTinJr

Member
Essentially. So much for it apparently being this world ending apocalypse... .....
.....
Cloud gaming will be an alternative to the traditional style of play, not a replacement fully. Tangible goods are what humans love best, and get attached to in order to create memories/nostalgia. Remove that and you are left with convenience sure, but lack of real ownership is hard to sell.
....
Long term it won't.

Just take a look at the size of CoD installs and updates for a game that gets replaced yearly, gamers without high-end broadband will be more likely to play by cloud than download 500GB of the game. The current obstacles are cloud storefront prominance from content, pricing and licensing models. it is exactly why the CMA sees the threat from XGS, Xcloud Microsoft's deep gamepass loss pockets + ATVI content like CoD.
 

UltimaKilo

Gold Member
Cloud gaming, at most, will be alternate way to play games.

Replacing the non-cloud gaming way? i doubt it will happen in the next few decades.

As long latency and the possibility of disconnection exist, cloud gaming will never work for me as the main way to play games.
Definitely will happen sooner than that. It won’t be 30+ years, but we almost certainly won’t see it this decade, barring some huge breakthrough.
 

MarkMe2525

Gold Member
Soo... Latency can be an issue. I never knew that 😂

Joking aside, MS has an elegant solution to combate the idle server time, that being the servers can be used for general computing. Sony using it's downtime for novel computing applications is also very neat.
 
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Wooxsvan

Member
Geforce Now is amazing tech wise in my experience. Sony doesnt have the infrastructure to build up on their own. I dont see a future where they are not tied to either google/ms for their datacenters. Also this is interesting considering they just announced Project Q
 

01011001

Banned
Until you go to a vacation and start playing your games through cloud.

In 10 years from now on, they dynamics will be different.

I mean we have VR as a testimony for that.

you'd have to pay me to play anything over the cloud.

and in 10 years from now, mobile chip technology will be so advanced that you'll be able to play high end PC quality games on your handheld or phone.
making cloud gaming even more useless than it already is.
 

poppabk

Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
When they realize they can't eliminate latency, they'll work on compensating for it by using AI to learn players reactions and predict players actions.
In the end games over cloud streaming will play themselves and the players just think they are playing the games.
Have you seen the controller aim assist videos. We are already there.
 

feynoob

Banned
you'd have to pay me to play anything over the cloud.

and in 10 years from now, mobile chip technology will be so advanced that you'll be able to play high end PC quality games on your handheld or phone.
making cloud gaming even more useless than it already is.
I am not gonna pay you for that. You will be first in line anyway.
If the future is cloud gaming, get left behind. It's the best option.
We will see.
 

01011001

Banned
I am not gonna pay you for that. You will be first in line anyway.

I literally bought a new TV, because the 7-10ms of additional latency in Apex Legends that I had on my old one over my Gaming monitor, made the game unplaybe to me on PS5. so until I got my new TV I exclusively played it on PS4 Pro, which is connected to my PC monitor. and even tho the framerate and graphics were way worse on PS4 Pro, the lower latency of the monitor made me prefer it.

you can bet your left testicle that I'll never play anything over the cloud.
 
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feynoob

Banned
I literally bought a new TV, because the 7-10ms of additional latency in Apex Legends that I had on my old one over my Gaming monitor, made the game unplaybe to me on PS5. so until I got my new TV I exclusively played it on PS4 Pro, which is connected to my PC monitor. and even tho the framerate and graphics were way worse on PS4 Pro, the lower latency of the monitor made me prefer it.

you can bet your left testicle that I'll never play anything over the cloud.
Season 2 Cheers GIF by Showtime
 

01011001

Banned
Dont worry, you will love it once you tasted the glory of it.

ah yes... the glory of input lag.

you clearly have no idea how much I despise input lag. I will not even play a game locally if it passes a certain latency threshold.

And Sony's cloud gaming tech is so abysmally shit that basically no game falls beneath that threshold 🤣
 
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Cloud gaming is essentially a distribution platform. But it will take a long time before we get true cloud exclusive games and even then they will have to run on some hardware...And even then we still have games that require internet anyway.
 

feynoob

Banned
ah yes... the glory of input lag.

you clearly have no idea how much I despise input lag. I will not even play a game locally if it passes a certain latency threshold.

And Sony's cloud gaming tech is so abysmally shit that basically no game falls beneath that threshold 🤣
Don't worry, it's coming soon.
Currently, this is your inner feeling for cloud gaming.
f7e7210e3741db03e4ad21c097f15f97.jpg
 

PaintTinJr

Member
ah yes... the glory of input lag.

you clearly have no idea how much I despise input lag. I will not even play a game locally if it passes a certain latency threshold.

And Sony's cloud gaming tech is so abysmally shit that basically no game falls beneath that threshold 🤣
What about the WIiU tablet controller? Local cloud direct to the console - without the garbage router switching latency of an average gamer's ISP supplied router - works great just like local play and Nintendo do lots of high frame rate, high reflex gameplay so claiming there is a fundamental problem with the technology is just pure denial IMHO.
 

01011001

Banned
What about the WIiU tablet controller? Local cloud direct to the console - without the garbage router switching latency of an average gamer's ISP supplied router - works great just like local play and Nintendo do lots of high frame rate, high reflex gameplay so claiming there is a fundamental problem with the technology is just pure denial IMHO.

the Wii U gamepad was the only "remote play" like feature to ever be useable.

in fact, at the time of release in 2012 the Wii U gamepad had less input lag than playing on contemporary HD TVs

many of the best TVs back then had 33ms of latency, the Wii U GamePad only had around 26ms of latency.

that's not amazing for today's standards, but still better than Sony's shitty 70 to 80ms remote play that they're now making a whole device for lol.

also the consistency was on another level compared to any other streaming tech, be it over the cloud or remote play.


the Wii U Gamepad also received the image differently than what any cloud streaming service does or what any other remote play services do. not only did the Wii U use a completely separate chip to handle the streaming to the Gamepad, but also it did start to send the image into the GamePad's framebuffer before it was finished drawing on the GPU of the console.

The Wii U was purpose designed for this very feature, and it shows.
no other console has remote play even remotely on par with it.
 
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PaintTinJr

Member
the Wii U gamepad was the only "remote play" like feature to ever be useable.

in fact, at the time of release in 2012 the Wii U gamepad had less input lag than playing on contemporary HD TVs

many of the best TVs back then had 33ms of latency, the Wii U GamePad only had around 29ms of latency.

that's not amazing for today's standards, but still better than Sony's shitty 70 to 80ms remote play that they're now making a whole device for lol.

also the consistency was on another level compared to any other streaming tech, be it over the cloud or remote play.


the Wii U Gamepad also received the image differently than what any cloud streaming service does or what any other remote play services do. not only did the Wii U use a completely separate chip to handle the streaming to the Gamepad, but also it did start to send the image into the GamePad's framebuffer before it was finished drawing on the GPU of the console.

The Wii U was purpose designed for this very feature, and it shows.
no other console has remote play even remotely on par with it.
You are still technically out of your depth to have such a strong opinion about this technology IMHO, and I get the impression you never tried using remoteplay direct to console with PS3 to play any PS1 classics like ISS Pro Evo or Tekken 2 in the style of WiiU tablet play. The latency is low enough for perfect input timings in that situation
 

01011001

Banned
You are still technically out of your depth to have such a strong opinion about this technology IMHO, and I get the impression you never tried using remoteplay direct to console with PS3 to play any PS1 classics like ISS Pro Evo or Tekken 2 in the style of WiiU tablet play. The latency is low enough for perfect input timings in that situation

Sony's remote play has been tested again and again by different people (including DF), with many setups, in all possible configurations.

it's abysmal... it was worse before, like really shit... but it's still shit to this day.

tests on PSTV connected through a wired connection to the PS4 revealed additional latency of ~100ms

these days on PS5 it seems they brought it down to an astonishing 70 to 80ms 😲 CRAZY I KNOW!

and that's just dogshit latency.
maybe you're just used to high input lag because you have a pre-2020 Sony TV or something 🤷
 
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