Sony chief warns technical problems persist for cloud gaming

Gone said:
@CMA

You read this?
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why do you care? Own ms stocks? Gamers should not be rooting for publisher buyouts, only fan boys care about that for "owning the other team" its childish.
Them buying AB would just hurt current customers who are already hurting in our high inflation shit economy.
 
Shadowstar39 said:
why do you care? Own ms stocks? Gamers should not be rooting for publisher buyouts, only fan boys care about that for "owning the other team" its childish.
Them buying AB would just hurt current customers who are already hurting in our high inflation shit economy.
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Well, at least you wouldn't have to pay full price for each Activision Blizzard game and that would be a great help for people in this high inflation shit economy.
 
Eotheod said:
Essentially. So much for it apparently being this world ending apocalypse that Sony and select others had to tell CMA. Now with the deal essentially dead, it's not likely to be that big of a deal (and never should have been thought of as one). Plus the bundling of Game Pass numbers as being cloud users specifically was a straight lie.

Cloud gaming will be an alternative to the traditional style of play, not a replacement fully. Tangible goods are what humans love best, and get attached to in order to create memories/nostalgia. Remove that and you are left with convenience sure, but lack of real ownership is hard to sell.

With technologies like Starlink and low orbiting/laser delivery systems, we could see far quicker throughput in latency. The issue is it will take some time and probably be costly to get it to truly emulate physical response.
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Deal isn't totally dead yet
 
Remote play isn't nearly as special or complicated as most make it seem. Anyways, to touch on the WiiU. Nintendo's solution for it was simple, it used a direct peer-to-peer wifi link between the console and the handheld. Basically cutting off the router middleman. A direct link would always be faster than anything that is doing remote play over or via a router.

And that brings me to the whole streaming or even remote play as seen in PS consoles. As long as you have to go through a router, your latency would be higher. Now in addition to the router, add a server... that on its own, adds even more latency, now lets also add the distance that server is from where you are, that just makes this whole latency thing become impossible to predict.

Eg... just doing a speed test and pinging off a server in my region, I get downloads of 100Mbs@44ms latency. Now simply pinging off a server from Miami... closest North American city to my location... downloads stay at 100mbs, but now latency literally doubles to 82ms... and don't even get me started on upload latency too which is different and should also be considered. And this is just server-to-server latency, we have not factored in what wud be end-to-end latency which would include controller input and TV latency. Further away that server is, the higher my latency.

Yeah, streaming is technically easy to do, but it's just a fundamentally complicated problem to solve because its made up of too many parts most of which are all controlled by someone else.
 
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StereoVsn said:
When you go to vacation you will be on terrible Hotel WiFi mostly, and Cloud Gaming will be the last thing you can do.
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That's their point.

The big benefit to cloud gaming is to game anywhere, but outside of the home is where the biggest latency hurdle is right now.

So as you and they point out, might be good at home, but go to a hotel and in most likelihood it would suck ass.

But as they then point out, give it more time and connectivity will have improved outside of the home. Just as it already has done over the last decade.
 
01011001 said:
the Wii U gamepad was the only "remote play" like feature to ever be useable.
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Funny you bring this up, when I started using my WiiU again recently I noticed that the gamepad is comparable to using my TV in game mode. Of course they both faceplant compared to the 1ms monitor but for my wifi wireless controller to have parity with the wired TV from the same era is nothing to scoff at.
 
lh032 said:
that doesnt matter when latency is ass for me.
If the latency and connection quality is perfect? sure, why not.
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Yeah. This is an issue of physics. Creative solutions are being, and have been, developed. But it's just not enough, clearly. I've tried cloud gaming multiple times through various services. The QoL just wasn't there for me, the latency (lag) was too much. For certain kinds of games this is less of a problem. For example, anything turn based wouldn't be too awful.

Unfortunately those games are few and far between anymore.
 
BlackTron said:
Funny you bring this up, when I started using my WiiU again recently I noticed that the gamepad is comparable to using my TV in game mode. Of course they both faceplant compared to the 1ms monitor but for my wifi wireless controller to have parity with the wired TV from the same era is nothing to scoff at.
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it's about 1 frame slower compared to the best modern TVs in a 60fps game.

back in 2012 it was about the same as any of the best TVs of the time.

what I'm wondering is if the latency of the Gamepad comes from transmitting the video or if it comes from the GamePad's own screen latency 🤔
 
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01011001 said:
Sony's remote play has been tested again and again by different people (including DF), with many setups, in all possible configurations.

it's abysmal... it was worse before, like really shit... but it's still shit to this day.

tests on PSTV connected through a wired connection to the PS4 revealed additional latency of ~100ms

these days on PS5 it seems they brought it down to an astonishing 70 to 80ms 😲 CRAZY I KNOW!

and that's just dogshit latency.
maybe you're just used to high input lag because you have a pre-2020 Sony TV or something 🤷
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Tested on a PSTV with a cable?

That just proves you didn't understand the technicalities of my previous comment.

The PS3(the Brawny device as the cloud game server) in my scenario and the PSP go connect directly. using just the PS3's wifi and PSPGo wifi. They aren't going through a router's memory routing and switching latency in any way with those PS1 classics - even if the PS3 wifi is effectively bridging networks by still getting an internet connection as a client of the router too.

DF certainly didn't test that latency back in the day because all scenarios they used went through their router.
 
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I know many of you will laugh, but when I can't use tv, I'm playing demon soul remote play on pc, which is streamed back to a quest 2...compression is not great, but latency is not as bad you may think, considering the game require quick feedback from the controls
 
Sony's chairman declined to comment on the expected impact of Microsoft's acquisition of Activision by Microsoft, which spent $75 billion on the purchase, arguing that regulatory reviews are still ongoing.
 
The only time I ever noticed latency on xcloud is that odd game that has terrible native latency in the controls anyway, other than that it's fantastic.

Can't help but keep wishing for geforcenow image quality tho, that shit is just magic.
 
01011001 said:
it's about 1 frame slower compared to the best modern TVs in a 60fps game.

back in 2012 it was about the same as any of the best TVs of the time.

what I'm wondering is if the latency of the Gamepad comes from transmitting the video or if it comes from the GamePad's own screen latency 🤔
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Not quite for smaller screens. Back in 2010 when virtua fighter 5 final showdown released on PS3(and 360) with Sony having marketing rights in Japan(atleast IIRC) they showcased the game on a Sony W7 LCD with just 5ms latency in game mode.

I've still got one attached to my PC because the 1080p resolution is at 32" is fine for dev work and the colour reproduction and image quality is miles ahead of my kids' newish, smaller and more expensive Iiyama and Hanspree touchscreen monitors that have lower latency.

The real criminals of latency in gaming are the lengthy AC-styled animation sequences that need 60fps to feel like you can break the sequence at latency of an excellent 30fps implementation(mario sunshine), Animations latency is discrete like frame-rate so can easily add +100ms of latency in a 30fps game, for 3frames too many, or +50ms at 60fps.
/edit
And that is a best case scenario, because if the game is designed to run at 30fps at the baseline, then you still get that extra 100ms, just you can break the sequence 16.67ns early. Although latency in such situations isn't instantaneous reactions like old arcade games, but interpolated in the mind, so some of that latency is mitigated by human prediction/anticipation, which is easier at 60fps(higher frame-rate) because the animation is smoother which makes predicting the time to react easier.
 
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Completely streaming games from a server far from my locations will always present problem…. BUT, if they could implement a hybrid approach where you have a small skeleton of the game where you could have your input locally and stream all the other data and assets, that would be interesting to explore.
 
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K' Dash said:
Completely streaming games from a server far from my locations will always present problem…. BUT, if they could implement a hybrid approach where you have a small skeleton of the game where you could have your input locally and stream all the other data and assets, that would be interesting to explore.
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And it is exactly the endless variations on finding solutions like the one you are think about why the UK's CMA have refused Microsoft's acquisition of ATVI.

They know that the innovation by start-ups to find great solutions of that ilk will be killed off the minute the cloud gaming market is gift wrapped for a big cloud player like Microsoft, as they will just move to the margins and profit phase and use whatever solution they have on hand leaving no opportunity for innovation to be properly rewarded as it otherwise would be.
 
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01011001 said:
I literally bought a new TV, because the 7-10ms of additional latency in Apex Legends that I had on my old one over my Gaming monitor, made the game unplaybe to me on PS5. so until I got my new TV I exclusively played it on PS4 Pro, which is connected to my PC monitor. and even tho the framerate and graphics were way worse on PS4 Pro, the lower latency of the monitor made me prefer it.

you can bet your left testicle that I'll never play anything over the cloud.
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An additional 7-10 ms made it unplayable? Very hardcore of you 🙄
 
Captain Toad said:
The glory of streaming games? Lol, fuck that. In what universe will it ever be better than playing natively?
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The fact that you don't have to worry about download, patch it. You can switch to any games that you want to play.

B2P model isn't here right now, but once it does, that is where the real fun starts.
 
FearlessBelgian said:
Cloud gaming is trash and will stay trash.
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old-man-cloud-HD.jpg
 
MarkMe2525 said:
An additional 7-10 ms made it unplayable? Very hardcore of you 🙄
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it did indeed.
it felt sluggish and I constantly overshot my target due to the additional latency.
doesn't happen on the new TV anymore :)

input lag is the mortal enemy of a first/third person shooter. high input lag leads to a terrible feeling shooter, and having varying input lag from one session to the next will lead to a complete disruption of your muscle memory.
 
feynoob said:
The fact that you don't have to worry about download, patch it. You can switch to any games that you want to play.
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Stadia literally had you wait for patches when they released 🤣
GeForce Now as well!

you know that servers need to update as well right when a new version releases? the new version of a game doesn't just magically appear on the server's SSD

"oh but it will update by itself while you're not playing", yes and consoles do that too :)
 
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01011001 said:
Stadia literally had you wait for patches when they released 🤣
GeForce Now as well!

you know that servers need to update as well right when a new version releases? the new version of a game doesn't just magically appear on the server's SSD

"oh but it will update by itself while you're not playing", yes and consoles do that too :)
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All that will by done by them.
 
Publisher would do anything to take away physical option for you. They don't want you to resell your game.

Cloud gaming will make sure of that, if digital hasn't.
 
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PaintTinJr said:
Tested on a PSTV with a cable?

That just proves you didn't understand the technicalities of my previous comment.

The PS3(the Brawny device as the cloud game server) in my scenario and the PSP go connect directly. using just the PS3's wifi and PSPGo wifi. They aren't going through a router's memory routing and switching latency in any way with those PS1 classics - even if the PS3 wifi is effectively bridging networks by still getting an internet connection as a client of the router too.

DF certainly didn't test that latency back in the day because all scenarios they used went through their router.
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I only ever tried that once, and the latency was fucking awful.

I might try it for the lulz tomorrow, gotta charge my PSP and connect my PS3.

I think I have MGS1 installed on my PS3, so I can test that over remote play and see how much slower it is.

I would be very surprised if its less than 100ms of additional lag compared to my TV, which would have been around 75ms of additional lag compared to my older Full HD TV that I had around the gen7 era.
 
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cireza said:
It is almost as if cloud wasn't an appropriate technology for gaming, but people were dumb and decided to use it anyway.

How about using some common sense ?
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Very true. The problem is, Microsoft is throwing so much money at it and brute forcing the cloud. I would imagine that this is what helped the Xbox division survive last into this generation when they were looking at what to do next. Microsoft is all about the subscription service model and saw this as another service even if they had to build it from scratch.
 
There are a ton of games that are perfectly playable on cloud currently. Anything ps3/xbox 360 era and below play as if they were the native versions along with alot of modern indies/aa games.
 
Claim that cloud is not ready for full production. Therefore Microsoft Remains the only Main player. Then claim Microsoft would own a monopoly in cloud and cannot be allowed to buy Activision.

Seems like a loophole to me.
 
Gamepass on steamdeck has been an absolute game changer for me. It feels like I have a portable Xbox one/series s. I wish there was a better ps now workaround for getting it running on steamdeck.

Gamepass/psnow/retroarch is all that's needed for a portable. Modern AAA games can be left for consoles.
 
X Cloud, PS Now, and Stadia have proven low cost "console blades" serving up 30 and 60fps streaming simply doesn't cut it, the lag is far too high and the experience is dog shit. Nvidia has proven 120fps+ streaming is the future, and will gladly be accepted by 95% of consumers. The question is who's going to front the cost of setting up $2000 "PC Blades" to run a single instance per user on a large scale for "free" (i.e. bundled with a Gamepass or PS+ sub).
 
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01011001 said:
it did indeed.
it felt sluggish and I constantly overshot my target due to the additional latency.
doesn't happen on the new TV anymore :)

input lag is the mortal enemy of a first/third person shooter. high input lag leads to a terrible feeling shooter, and having varying input lag from one session to the next will lead to a complete disruption of your muscle memory.
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I have to say... unsarcastically now.. that is very hardcore of you.
 
Remember when we were kids and those Japanese heads talked and we listened as if we were listening to gods back then?

yeah .. he still lives in that era it seems.

People are playing FPS games over the cloud, they won't be able to play Single player games like GoW or Horizon flawlessly? GTFO of here. you are just shitting your pants and that's about it. stay in the ice age with the rest of the big heads at Sony, soon you will be left behind.

Sony is so afraid of online that they do not have a simple browser on their PS5. Do you want them to focus on online play? LoL. what a joke of a company this is becoming. honestly between this, and that shit Sony conference they showed... I have zero interest in their upcoming games outside of third-party timed exclusives like FF16 and FF7 remake 2 or whatever it's called these days " rebirth. lol"
 
Cloud gaming is bigtime crud and will fails my friends any lagging and stutters at all is not allowed round here and game breaking they never totallys get rid of it
 
Certainly not the same, but LCD- were also inferior to CRT-monitors (probably still are in some regard) but current tech is based on flat and not tubes anymore. If the benefits outweighs the downsides some negatives can be accepted. And streaming is convenient af if you ever used it.

Streaming works fine for many games. It's basically just one level higher for the difficulty. Souls players should love it, suddenly all games are hard.

And to the statement that servers idle most of the day. They just have to use some longer lines for certain games. It's absolutely irrelevant to play eg. Xblaze, Battle vs Chess, or Life is Strange with extra extra latency. So to maintain high usage rates over the day and limit the necessary number of units, at least a bit, since I guess CoD/Overwatch/Apex etc. is also on streaming most wanted, stream those over half the planet. No one will care.
 
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