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SONY Confirms Blu-Ray for PS3

Alcibiades

Member
Li Mu Bai said:
Good to hear, for a moment I feared you were too far gone. We are both enthusiasts for our consoles/companies of choice, but as long as we're both grounded in reality intelligent dialogue or debate can always ensue.

I wouldn't call statements like "Nintendo lost" intelligent dialogue...

I'd expect to hear that out of some mainstream/unknowing gamer who claims PS3 will be out in a few months (like many of the customers I encounter), but that's going too far in a message board where financial reports show Nintendo's game business is still a profit-cranking machine, and how they have carved out their own market/profit in spite of what an electronic and/or computer companies (that basically have 7 and 10-year plans for eventual profit) have done...

Sega responded very forefully with Dreamcast (with marketing, retailer support, games, online, etc...), and the Gamecube has already surpassed what was argueably a must-have, valient effort...

Nintendo, instead of responding, just did their own thing, and they doing just fine, with possibly their strongest holiday lineup ever just around the corner...
 

Fafalada

Fafracer forever
aaaa0 said:
At 6.75 MB/s, it will take 75 seconds of loading to fill 512 megs.
A 12x DVD-ROM will take about 30 seconds to do the same thing.
Those are theoreticals though.
On the negative side, the actual reading speed you can expect to achieve will be around 80% of the spec in a well optimized system - poorly written stuff will do MUCH worse.
On the positive side, the actual amount of data you need to read to fill the memory is much much less then the actual memory size. Partly because plenty of memory is taken by structures that are generated, not loaded, and also because any half decent loading system loads compressed data, not raw.

For example on current generation.
A normally sized executable on PS2 is around 3-4MB, so you start off with 28MB to fill, not 32. Various generated data such as DMA lists and other system stuff will take you another couple of MB - so you're quickly down to 20-24 or less.
Lastly a trivial compression scheme that favours speed over compression ratios will run you another 20-30% off the data size loaded, so what you get is 14-17MB of data to load for a clean load, without any other clever optimizations like permamently shared data across levels (main characters and such).

Anyway these balances will be different as memory pools grow, but still, a 12x drive should be plenty enough for any developer that cares about load times.

Yup, and a 16x for not much more.
However real 12x speed is apparently pushing physical limits of DVD disc integrity - faster spinning tends to cause discs to explode, so 16x or higher drives will never really run at that speed.
 

aaaaa0

Member
Fafalada said:
Those are theoreticals though.
On the negative side, the actual reading speed you can expect to achieve will be around 80% of the spec in a well optimized system - poorly written stuff will do MUCH worse.
On the positive side, the actual amount of data you need to read to fill the memory is much much less then the actual memory size. Partly because plenty of memory is taken by structures that are generated, not loaded, and also because any half decent loading system loads compressed data, not raw.

For example on current generation.
A normally sized executable on PS2 is around 3-4MB, so you start off with 28MB to fill, not 32. Various generated data such as DMA lists and other system stuff will take you another couple of MB - so you're quickly down to 20-24 or less.
Lastly a trivial compression scheme that favours speed over compression ratios will run you another 20-30% off the data size loaded, so what you get is 14-17MB of data to load for a clean load, without any other clever optimizations like permamently shared data across levels (main characters and such).

Anyway these balances will be different as memory pools grow, but still, a 12x drive should be plenty enough for any developer that cares about load times.

All very true. I was just giving a ballpark number.

However real 12x speed is apparently pushing physical limits of DVD disc integrity - faster spinning tends to cause discs to explode, so 16x or higher drives will never really run at that speed.

True as well. Though I thought 16x was the physical limit, not 12x. (And just to clarify, I mean 16x peak, as the transfer rate on the inner and outer edges of course will be different.)
 

mrklaw

MrArseFace
I'd like a Bluray in my PS3, but I don't see the point.

sure, Sony would like it to be the next big thing, but HD movies (which is what its for) are going to be niche for a while yet. Even if HD displays take off big time, people will be happy enough with their upscaled DVDs.

HD will be like laserdisc for at least a few years (likely the timespan of PS3 maybe)

So why put it in a consumer device, and one that kids will be playing on their SD TVs in their bedrooms within 12 months?
 

Fafalada

Fafracer forever
Well I'm not 100% sure if it's 12 or 16, either way Xenon drive being in that range of speed is a safe bet, unlike BRD.
Honestly I'd like to see a BluRay in PS3 too, but not at the cost of compromising the rest of the system.

Didn't realize that BluRay Rom 1x speed was actually faster then previous spec though, interesting. Speaking of which, does anyone have an idea here what kind of impact faster spinning drives have on manufacturing costs? It could give us a better idea of the likelihood of seeing faster BRDs in near future...
 

Greekboy

Banned
efralope said:
Nintendo, instead of responding, just did their own thing, and they doing just fine, with possibly their strongest holiday lineup ever just around the corner...

If selling the GCN at a loss for $99 because the console wasn't selling is "their own thing" and "not responding" then you are absolutely correct.
 
efralope said:
Sega responded very forefully with Dreamcast (with marketing, retailer support, games, online, etc...), and the Gamecube has already surpassed what was argueably a must-have, valient effort...

Nintendo, instead of responding, just did their own thing, and they doing just fine, with possibly their strongest holiday lineup ever just around the corner...

Why are you even comparing the GC to the DC? Is that suppose to make it look good or something? The DC was doomed before it was even released simply due to how much Sega's name was hurt in the public eye. There weren't enough people that actually trusted them.
 

kaching

"GAF's biggest wanker"
Li Mu Bai said:
The studios have already voted, or more precisely the DVD consortium. HD/DVD was their medium of choice iirc.
What other choices did they have? Who else actually submitted a DVD successor format to them to evaluate? It's not like they were offered a choice between BRD and AOD. Their choice seems to have been AOD or wait for something else to come along...meanwhile, the BRD forum would proceed with their plans independently...

given that HDTV will not yet be in every household by '06,
Estimated to be in 25-30 millions households by 2006. Larger than certain console audiences, and people who are willing to buy higher-priced HDTVs should have a larger amount of disposable income to consider giving their home theater the full treatment.

The extra medium space truly isn't necessary from a developer's standpoint.
Is that for now or for 3-4 yrs down the road when devs have learned the ropes of the next gen hardware and are starting to really push it for what its worth, offering widescreen, high definition visuals and cutscenes, larger, more intricate worlds, more complicated character models, lots of immersive 5.1 sound, etc.? I doubt they'll need to fill a full 25 gig BR disc on a regular basis, but if they can use a significant portion of it and include extras because of it, or consider other packaging options (such as HD movie and the game based on the movie on the same disc), then it will not be a useless resource.
 

kaching

"GAF's biggest wanker"
Fafalada said:
Sure, for a single speed device.
Now, do you honestly expect a nexgen console to launch with a optical disc SLOWER then two of the current gen consoles?

Better yet, Xenon's current drive spec is 3-4x faster then BRDx1.
For DVD media. Would a BRD drive offer the same read speeds for DVD/CD as it does for BR discs or could a BR drive effectively be 1x or 2x for BR discs while offering 12x for DVD discs?

Either way, it's worth noting that Matsushita BRD recorder set to ship soon isn't just lower in price than Sony's BRD recorder, it's also higher spec. Sony's BRD recorder launched in April can only use 23-25 gig single-layer BRDs, while the Matsushita's recorder will be approx. 100,000 Yen less but offer the ability to record on 50 gig dual layer BRDs. Price has lowered and yet spec has improved. So it seem possible to see the same trend applied to BRD drive speeds.
 

Kleegamefan

K. LEE GAIDEN
I think its important to specify the differences in BRD devices:

BRD-R

This is the write once version of Blu Ray....similar to DVD-Rs.....


BDR-RE

This is the recordable version of Blu-Ray....an optical HD-VHS deck if you will....you can supposedly re-record over previous data millions of time, ala Mini Disk.....current BRD decks for sale use the BDR-RE format

BRD-ROM

This is the mask ROM version of Blu-Ray....pre-recorded media (such as High-Def movies and PlayStation 3 games) will use this....similar to DVD-ROM and CD-ROM, you cannot record over this....it is pressed...


The original PS3+BRD rumor really shifted into high gear when Asahi PC magazine interviewed Kiyoshi Nishitani, Sony's management director in charge of Blu-ray Disc development and next-generation home electronics.....

In that interview Nishitani-san *SPECIFIED* that they were looking to usethe ROM VERSION OF BLU-RAY in the PlayStation 3....not the BRD-RE version of the format which you would expect to be used in a PS3-based PSX2....

It seems to me that Sony is pretty straightforward in the way they position their videogame media....The PSOne uses CD-ROM media, the PS2 uses DVD-ROM media, Kiyoshi Nishitani says the PlayStation 3 will use BRD-ROM media and I believe him...

If Sony choosed to release a higher-end, PS3-based PSX2, I would imagine they would use the BRD-RE format for it since the PSX is also a recordable device....would be weird for its successor to use just BRD-ROM, IMO

The studios have already voted, or more precisely the DVD consortium. HD/DVD was their medium of choice iirc.

The only Major Studio that has made a commitment to either blu-laser formats is Sony/Columbia/TriStar (and probably MGM too, if Sony has their way)....HD-DVD only has Pony Canyon sofar and while Warner Bros. support seems likely, they, like all the other studios have not given official support to HD-DVD or BRD yet...
 

Prospero

Member
GIR said:
Sony PS3 Developer 1: hey that a cool HD cut scene you included on that game you made, its so detailed, fuck you must have used up 20 SGI workstations rendering that thing, and shit it must be at least 18gb, good thing you got the Sony BRD then, you got enough for the rest of the game too.

Best post in the thread.
 

deadhorse32

Bad Art ™
Pioneer began development of a new digital video disc format in 1991, with the goal of recording two or more hours of high-quality video on one disc, as a next-generation replacement for the LaserDisc.

In 1994, Pioneer introduced to the market an industrial model called the Karaoke System, which could store and play back 2.1 GB of MPEG-1 data from a one-sided, 1.2 mm thick disc, using a 680 nm laser. In 1994, Pioneer also developed another digital video disc system which used an SHG blue laser. In response to Hollywood's desire to have this kind of new system enter the market before multi-channel satellite broadcasting, Pioneer worked with Toshiba to propose a disc specification called SD, which used a red laser, at the end of 1994. Around the same time, Sony and Philips were promoting the MMCD specification. The major difference between the SD and MMCD specifications were whether the discs should use two 0.6 mm substrates bonded together, or a single 1.2 mm substrate, as an extension of the CD format. At the end of 1995, agreement was finally reached on a specification that combined the two-substrate approach of SD with the 8/16 modulation of the MMCD specification. At this point the DVD Consortium was formed, and DVD truly got started.

In August 1996 the DVD Video Book was published, and the first DVD video players went on sale in November of the same year. The 3.95 GB Write-Once DVD-R Book, and the 2.6 GB rewritable DVD-RAM Book, were published in 1997. A DVD-RW Book and DVD-RAM Book, which define 4.7 GB rewritable formats, were published in 1999. A specification for 4.7 GB DVD-R was introduced in 2000. Two application specifications, the DVD Audio and the DVD Video Recording specification, were introduced in 1999. Following these specifications, DVD audio players, which provide high-quality multi-channel audio, and DVD video recorders, which allow recording to and playback of DVDs, were introduced to the market.

http://www.pioneer.co.jp/crdl/tech/dvd/1-e.html

Let's compare this generation with the last one

1996 (first DVD-Rom player) -> 2001 (PS2 release)
2004 (first BR player/recorder) -> 2009 (PS3 release (?)) Since we are pretty sure the PS3 won't be release in 2009 let's kiss BR good buy for this generation.

Also note than in 1996 the whole "DVD war" was already over, we are currently in the middle of the HD-DVD/BR war.

Also I'm not against BR I personally think it's the best format of the two but i don't expect HDDVD or BR in next-gen hardware.
 

Kleegamefan

K. LEE GAIDEN
Of course there are a few holes in your theories, Millhouse...

First hole:

The first released Blu-ray player is a Recordable device.....Recordable DVDs were *NOT* released in 1996.....


2nd Hole:
The first DVD player was released in 1997 *NOT* in 1996

http://www.cedmagic.com/history/rca-dvd-rc5200p.html

3rd Hole
The PS2 was released in 2000 (Japan and North America) *NOT* in 2001
 

deadhorse32

Bad Art ™
and for the record I believe the first dvd player was the Panasonic DVD-A100 release the 1st november 1996 in Japan.


edit : there was also a Toshiba player released the same day.

so it's 4 years laps for a standard format backed up by the whole industry.
 

Kleegamefan

K. LEE GAIDEN
well you should have specified Japan....

Since you (mysteriously) chose a later date for the PS2 (2001) then I could only surmise you were talking about the US......the Toshiba 3006 was the first DVD player available in the US (April 1997) BTW...


Some of your dates are all over the place

DVD (1996 in japan)

PS2 (2001 in EU?)

Blu-Ray (You must mean 2004 in Japan for Panasonic's 1st BRD player as the Sony BRD Recorder came out April 2003 in Japan)

Your dates are all over the place, not to mention very deceptive.....unless you were stating abitrary dates to reinforce you point, whatever that might be?
 

kaching

"GAF's biggest wanker"
Milhouse31 said:
so it's 4 years laps for a standard format backed up by the whole industry.
hehe...sure, for the one format you happened to pick. You haven't established a trend yet. What was the lap time from first CD player on the market to the first game console to support CD format? I'm seeing 1982 for the first CD player in Japan/Europe and then 1988 for the first use in a game console - the PC Engine CD ROM.

So DVD lap time picked up two years on the CD lap time. Who's to say blue-laser optical media backers couldn't do something similar and reduce the lap time even more?
 

border

Member
kaching said:
So DVD lap time picked up two years on the CD lap time. Who's to say blue-laser optical media backers couldn't do something similar and reduce the lap time even more?
Exactly. I don't see what the old technologies have to do with the new ones. Adoption rates are not just some arbitrary thing where you can say "It always takes 4 years"....if production costs come down more quickly then consoles will adopt a new technology more quickly.
 

deadhorse32

Bad Art ™
For the ps2 date I was wrong no prob.
and I wasn't trying to etablish a trend between format it was just a simple comparaison.
 

Mustang

Banned
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?section_name=dev&aid=3919

PlayStation 3 to feature Blu-Ray disc

Rob Fahey 15:04 04/08/2004

New playback-only Blu-Ray technology to feature in Sony's next console
Sony has revealed that its next-generation games console will use the Blu-Ray disc format, which is an evolution of the current DVD system that is designed to hold five times as much data on a similarly sized disc.

A meeting in Tokyo yesterday saw the creation of a working group to draw up final specifications of a read-only Blu-Ray system, including representatives from many of the world's largest electronics companies such as Sony, Dell and Matsushita (Panasonic).

Until now, Blu-Ray discs, which are similar to standard DVDs but use more accurate blue laser light rather than the normal red laser light to read and write data, have been both readable and writeable.

Sony officials confirmed that the next iteration of the PlayStation home console will be equipped with a Blu-Ray disc drive, allowing it to play back high definition movies (as movies are gradually expected to move from DVD to Blu-Ray in the coming years) as well as providing more space for game developers on the discs.

Single-layer Blu-Ray discs can store up to 27Gb on one layer of data, compared to 4.7Gb on DVDs, although the version of the standard favoured by Sony holds only 23Gb - still around five times larger than existing DVD discs. The Blu-Ray specification also allows for reading existing DVD discs, so the PS3 will almost certainly still be able to handle standard DVD movies and PS2 titles.

Video playback units based on the new read-only standard are expected to appear by the end of the current fiscal year, which runs through to March 2005 - the same timescale in which Sony plans to unveil the PlayStation 3 in public for the first time.
 

kaching

"GAF's biggest wanker"
klee's last post made me realize I made a mistake in one of my earlier posts:

kaching said:
I believe the Matsushita device is expected to retail for the equivalent of approx. 1000 USD less than the Sony unit released earlier this year. If that rate of cost reduction remains consistent, there wouldn't be much to worry about by 2006.

Problem is, Sony's BRD recorder wasn't released earlier this year, it was released in April 2003. So the reduction in cost between this unit and the Matsushita unit isn't nearly as aggressive as I thought it was, though it will still be interesting to see what the first BRD recorders retail for when they hit the States later this year (hopefully).
 
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