Support NeoGAF

[ChorizoPicozo]

This. They have $85 billion to spend on Minecraft, zenimax, activision blizzard but are letting themselves get outbid by Sony that's worth maybe $100 billion max? Gtfo with your sob story Phil.

and is not like they didn't do it. in fact; they had a golden opportunity to overtake PlayStation and they fucked up hard.

 

[TheGodfather07]

Can't Microsoft just outbid them?
Sony doesn't own those Studios, those Studios can do whatever they want.

I don't know how Microsoft compares exclusive deals to a frigging acquisition.

Not if a publisher isnt interested in any kind of deal with Microsoft. It's business. Why would you want to market or do timed exclusives with a platform that has the least marketshare? It makes no sense for most publishers. Where as its the total opposite with sony. That's why sony seem to get all the marketing and stuff. Money is no barrier for Microsoft. It's their weak position in the market.

 

[BeardGawd]

Perhaps, but I think they know they would lose.



Not true. Sony barely even made mention of Nintendo. Microsoft tried to insert Nintendo into this discussion as proof that Sony can live without Call of Duty if Nintendo can. It was just a bullshit argument that both the FTC and CMA rejected. The FTC is the one that separated Nintendo based on the Switch's technical capabilities. So now MS is resorting to this fairy tale that the market is split 80-20.

Sony went along with that definition because it benefitted them. They can't then turn around and say it's not true. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

 

[Topher]

Sony went along with that definition because it benefitted them. They can't then turn around and say it's not true. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

No they didn't. That wasn't Sony's argument at all.

 

[Thirty7ven]

So we continue the narrative of a trillion dollar company that pays for exclusives, buys historical ip, and buys the biggest publishers on the market being the good guys but meanwhile anyone else who does something remotely similar is bad.

 

[AtomicStarving]

So reason Microsoft, the trilionary company, is not putting banger games on Game Pass and Games with Gold is SONY? Incompetence has found its cause.

 

[BeardGawd]

No they didn't. That wasn't Sony's argument at all.

Did Sony dispute that definition? If they had this acquisition would already be approved as Nintendo is proof COD isn't needed.

 

[Perrott]

What a retarded discussion topic.

Of course Sony is not going to let any of the titles with which they have any marketing deal (Resident Evil 4 Remake, Street Fighter 6, Pragmata... wow, I only managed to think about Capcom titles) go on their competitor's subscription service day one.

Anyone who might argue about this being anti-competitive is just plain stupid and doesn't understand business.

 

[Hendrick's]

A business doing business stuff.....holy god damn,someone call the cops!

Yet when MS tries doing business the sky is falling and the end of gaming.

 

[Topher]

Did Sony dispute that definition?

I can't take you seriously right now.

 

[BeardGawd]

I can't take you seriously right now.

Well move on then.

 

[Ar¢tos]

Yet when MS tries doing business the sky is falling and the end of gaming.

I don't recall seeing an angry mob after MS for Octopath Traveler exclusivity 2 years ago.

 

[Punished Miku]

Yet when MS tries doing business the sky is falling and the end of gaming.

Indeed.

It just flips endlessly back and forth to whatever is more convenient to win the latest dumb argument. The arguments will never end, because they never even stay in the same position. The only consistent thing is bickering.

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

I think they do blame themselves for not investing in their first party. They even made a 6 part documentary showcasing it, and brought Don Mattrick back for an interview.

They're clearly investing now.

If you want to talk about blaming Sony for getting better deals, they didn't blame them publicly. The actual history is that they tried to get 3rd party exclusives as well. We famously know the price tag of the Rise of Tomb Raider deal for just 1 year was supposedly $100 million. That's an astronomical price, when Insomniac sold their entire studio for $229 million. And we know MS didn't really see much of a benefit to their business from that Tomb Raider deal either. The level of outrage was almost as bad as we see now with Activision. People were flipping out that they'd have to wait 1 year, and I don't think the game sold that well.

What people are pointing out is that Sony can get 3rd party deals over and over for much cheaper than this since they only have to cover the lost revenue from a much smaller competitor if it's exclusive. MS would have to cover the lost revenue from the huge market leader, and then the game they get would still not sell that great - because they're much smaller. Repeat this over and over for 20 years and with a small amount of money, a dominant player can bleed out all their competitors while they gain very little.

MS tried this and knows it's a losing strategy. They didn't blame Sony, they moved to a sub model and acquisition strategy, which is far more logical and cost efficient in the end. And like you said, they are a trillion dollar company so no excuse to not invest and spend some of that money. They finally are.

Very well said.

Agree with everything except that its NOT a losing strategy.

Fact of the matter is that MS has been in this industry since the PS2. They have had 3 generations to get it right. And lets not forget they even leveled the playing feild with the 360. They had the momentum going into the XB1 gen, or rather before they announced the XB1. They have had 20 years to do exactly what sony has been doing. Building organic relationships, developing their first party, growing their user base...etc. They have had every opportunity sony has had.

lets not forget that MS originally had that COD marketing deal, they gave that up because they felt they had Halo and that sony getting it wouldn't do much for them anyway since xbox I've had the best MP service anyways.

If MSiswing to offer most of these publishers $300M just so their game will be on gamepass, there is absolutely nothing sony can do about it. And they would only have to do that for like 1 or two major games a year. like you think MS couldn't have outbid sony for Hogwarts and paid them $300M just so its on GP? Imagine what that would have done for GP.

With the kinda money MS has shown its ready to spend, almost $80B now.... can you imagine how many $200Mdeasthey could have secured or games to just also be on GP day 1...

MS own incompetence has put them in a position where the only way to compete now (and thats just because they are not patient enough to do it organically) is to buy out publishers in their entirety.

How anyone cant see how that is a problem is beyond me.

 

[Bumblebeetuna]

The weird thing is it's not even for exclusive games, which would be obvious and not a story. Sony uses their market power to put these clauses into multi platform games.

 

[MadchesterManc]

Evil Sony punching down and preventing all those big AAA 3rd party games going to poor Microsofts GamePass so peasants have to actually buy a game. Dark times.

 

[Topher]

The weird thing is it's not even for exclusive games, which would be obvious and not a story. Sony uses their market power to put these clauses into multi platform games.

As part of overall marketing agreements. Why pay to market a game only to have it show up on a competing service? Microsoft has marketing agreements as well.

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

I don't recall seeing an angry mob after MS for Octopath Traveler exclusivity 2 years ago.

or even for when they acquired Zenimax or mahjong.

Or even when they acquired ninja theory whose next game's first outing actually sold better on PS platform.

We got people talking like this is the first-time MS is `doing business` lol.

 

[DenchDeckard]

Well, at least after all this we will never get another Tomb Raider scenario but we will still probably get a million phil quotes of " I thought everyone wins Phil if we play together". "arent timed exclusives bad, phil?"

 

[Punished Miku]

MS own incompetence has put them in a position where the only way to compete now (and thats just because they are not patient enough to do it organically) is to buy out publishers in their entirety.

How anyone cant see how that is a problem is beyond me.

I don't think anyone denies what you're saying. I didn't even bother buying an Xbone last gen. They nearly left the entire console business.

I'll just add one last thing to my earlier post you quoted, just my opinion. I think that we're basically passed the end of the window for a 1st party to actually be able to catch up and compete organically. I think it's literally impossible. I think the MS strategy is the only possible move they could actually make other than quitting the industry.

My reasoning for that is that game development just takes so long now. We agree, they fucked up. Start over organically. Okay, 1 game will take you probably 7 years for a brand new studio that's never even made a game. I think it's pretty logical to think that you may need to make several games before your team is really hitting their stride and has developed a coherent and functioning development culture. A lot of Sony 1st party was mediocre for decades until PS4, and got experience quickly and cheaply making 6+ games through PS2 and PS3. This is no longer really possible. This means that moving organically, for MS to get experience with 1 trilogy would take them potentially 15-20 years. That's just literally not an option. This is why you see everyone moving towards acquisitions now. It's because you cannot easily replicate a functional, existing development studio with experience. You can't create it organically very easily, and the cost and time requirements are nearly impossible to truly catch up on - especially if you're just planning on footing the bill for 20 years while you get good, so you don't have crazy sales.

If anyone wants MS to even stay in the business, I think this was their only real move.

 

[Thirty7ven]

The weird thing is it's not even for exclusive games, which would be obvious and not a story. Sony uses their market power to put these clauses into multi platform games.

At what point exactly does it become confusing to understand that third parties go into marketing agreements with Sony out of their own volition, because it makes business sense for them I imagine, and part of the deal is that they don't put the game on gamepass?

Because it probably doesn't make sense for Sony to market a game heavily only for MS to turn around and say "thanks for the marketing, that game is on gamepass day 1 yaaaas"

Why is this so complicated? If the third party felt having the game on gamepass would be more profitable for them…. They would not sign the deal right?

 

[Aguero9320]

Trying to outmanoeuvre the opposition is what everyone does in a competitive business environment.

Its kinda weird to me that people into games and gaming don't want to look upon corporate doings as a high-stakes competition where every participant is laser focussed on winning.

Of course Sony is going to try and check MS' ambitions and vice-versa.

While this is true, it's also why there are regulators and rules. You aren't allowed to do whatever you want, and you cannot intentionally limit 'free competition' through certain practises. Like this one? We'll see. Would this be an antitrust violation? Potentially.

People can scoff, but there is a reason Microsoft is trying to prise these contracts out through legal motions in this case, and a reason Sony is trying hard to block them. And it's not to 'embarrass Sony' on Neogaf

There are huge fines and serious consequences for shady business practises (as Microsoft is painfully aware). If Sony has been a naughty boy, they are probably quite seriously concerned - although it would take literal years to resolve.

 

[TheGodfather07]

The weird thing is it's not even for exclusive games, which would be obvious and not a story. Sony uses their market power to put these clauses into multi platform games.

Ultimately its up to the publisher though. Of course they will make business deals with the market leader. Why shouldn't they? Nothing stops them from making deals with Microsoft instead if they want. Except they don't want to! How is that sonys fault? Their weak market position is their own fault! nor anyone else's. You should be pointing your fingers at Microsoft because it's all on them.

 

[Tams]

Yet when MS tries doing business the sky is falling and the end of gaming.

I mean, when they offer access to games for so cheap, it certainly isn't healthy for the market.

And anyone with half a brain knows that the good deal that Games Pass is (even if it is lacking in games somewhat) is only temporary. Companies don't bleed money like that out of kindness.

 

[Topher]

I don't think anyone denies what you're saying. I didn't even bother buying an Xbone last gen. They nearly left the entire console business.

I'll just add one last thing to my earlier post you quoted, just my opinion. I think that we're basically passed the end of the window for a 1st party to actually be able to catch up and compete organically. I think it's literally impossible. I think the MS strategy is the only possible move they could actually make other than quitting the industry.

My reasoning for that is that game development just takes so long now. We agree, they fucked up. Start over organically. Okay, 1 game will take you probably 7 years for a brand new studio that's never even made a game. I think it's pretty logical to think that you may need to make several games before your team is really hitting their stride and has developed a coherent and functioning development culture. A lot of Sony 1st party was mediocre for decades until PS4, and got experience quickly and cheaply making 6+ games through PS2 and PS3. This is no longer really possible. This means that moving organically, for MS to get experience with 1 trilogy would take them potentially 15-20 years. That's just literally not an option. This is why you see everyone moving towards acquisitions now. It's because you cannot easily replicate a functional, existing development studio with experience. You can't create it organically very easily, and the cost and time requirements are nearly impossible to truly catch up on - especially if you're just planning on footing the bill for 20 years while you get good, so you don't have crazy sales.

If anyone wants MS to even stay in the business, I think this was their only real move.

So you think Microsoft's only choices are buy Activision or exit the industry?

 

[ReBurn]

Sony did this to themselves by excluding Nintendo as a competitor.

I thought the top minds in the local video game company competItion debate decided that Nintendo can be a competitor now. We need a chart to help us plebs understand when Nintendo are competitors and when they're not.

 

[Unknown?]

Very well said.

Agree with everything except that its NOT a losing strategy.

Fact of the matter is that MS has been in this industry since the PS2. They have had 3 generations to get it right. And lets not forget they even leveled the playing feild with the 360. They had the momentum going into the XB1 gen, or rather before they announced the XB1. They have had 20 years to do exactly what sony has been doing. Building organic relationships, developing their first party, growing their user base...etc. They have had every opportunity sony has had.

lets not forget that MS originally had that COD marketing deal, they gave that up because they felt they had Halo and that sony getting it wouldn't do much for them anyway since xbox I've had the best MP service anyways.

If MSiswing to offer most of these publishers $300M just so their game will be on gamepass, there is absolutely nothing sony can do about it. And they would only have to do that for like 1 or two major games a year. like you think MS couldn't have outbid sony for Hogwarts and paid them $300M just so its on GP? Imagine what that would have done for GP.

With the kinda money MS has shown its ready to spend, almost $80B now.... can you imagine how many $200Mdeasthey could have secured or games to just also be on GP day 1...

MS own incompetence has put them in a position where the only way to compete now (and thats just because they are not patient enough to do it organically) is to buy out publishers in their entirety.

How anyone cant see how that is a problem is beyond me.

They didn't have momentum going into Xbox One. The 360 shit the bed 2010 onwards. Most gamers grew tired of the kinect only getting games and all the great games it was known for ceasing to exist.

 

[Topher]

I thought the top minds in the local video game company competItion debate decided that Nintendo can be a competitor now. We need a chart to help us plebs understand when Nintendo are competitors and when they're not.

The context of that debate keeps shifting though. It was brought up in the context of Call of Duty and somehow folks morphed it into competition overall. So yeah.....a chart reminding folks what is being debated would be good.