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[Kleegamefan]

They are according to the register:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/07/31/ms_japan_blue_laser/

Microsoft supporting Blue Laser? What about Blu-Ray? Err, maybe

By Faultline

Published Saturday 31st July 2004 22:19 GMT

There’s something disingenuous about the announcement this week from Microsoft Japan that it will make Longhorn, the company’s next major operating system release, compatible with the High Definition blue laser DVD from NEC and Toshiba, which is also backed by the DVD Forum.

Since when was Longhorn written in Japan? And since when did an operating system company decide on support for a peripheral which will need its own dedicated drivers and which can be made almost plug compatible with the current DVD drives, as far as the operating system is concerned.

In our view it was a major non-announcement.

The competing Blu-Ray specification is already streets ahead of the NEC Toshiba standard, and it has already established support from Hewlett-Packard and Dell, which is far more significant than Microsoft, since they are the customers here and they will actually buy the drives. Microsoft is hardly likely to turn around to its two biggest customers and tell them, no the operating system won’t recognize their DVD devices.

Add to this the fact that Sony has announced it will make drives which will read both types of HD DVD, and this is turning more and more into political cowtowing, rather than anything concrete. Another thing that goes against the Longhorn announcement is that the war for the Blue Laser space will be over long before Longhorn ever comes to market (2009?) and by then Longhorn will want all the friends it can get. It will support every peripheral standard out or risk losing whatever market share Windows retains by then.

But there is yet more damning evidence. Microsoft recently signed up to be a founder member in the Advanced Access Content System Licensing Authority. This is developing an access control system for copy protection and DRM for the new pre-recorded material.

Also in the group is Panasonic, Sony and Toshiba. Panasonic and Sony both support the alternative Blu Ray standard, along with Philips. So Microsoft is clearly working as much, if not more, with Toshiba’s competitors in HD DVD, than with Toshiba itself.

Microsoft supposedly said, as it announced support for the HD DVD from Toshiba, that it was not yet decided whether Longhorn would support the rival Blu-ray technology from a consortium of companies.

It looks to us like Microsoft Japan was trying to keep its partners happy and didn’t really look too closely where its foot was when it opened its mouth.

Microsoft was attending a “love-in” for the Toshiba standard where it invited thousands of studio personnel from all over the world and managed to get just one Japanese studio to commit to the standard. The Toshiba camp has tried to give the impression it is catching up the six months lead time it has lost on the Blu-Ray team. Hollywood has yet to make any pronouncements except of course that the Sony owned Sony Pictures will support Blu-Ray.

© Copyright 2004 Faultline

Faultline is published by Rethink Research, a London-based publishing and consulting firm. This weekly newsletter is an assessment of the impact of events that have happened each week in the world of digital media. Faultline is where media meets technology. Subscription details here.

 

[Kleegamefan]

http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/index.cfm?NewsID=9315

Blu-ray roadmap defined
By Martyn Williams



The group of companies behind the Blu-ray Disc format outlined some of the future enhancements and additions it is planning for the format this week.


Blu-ray Disc is being positioned as a successor to DVD for high-definition content. DVDs don't have the storage capacity to accommodate an entire movie in high-definition format but Blu-ray Disc does. That's largely because it uses blue lasers to read and write data on the disc, rather than the red lasers used by DVD. A blue laser makes a smaller spot on the disc surface which means the space required for one bit of data is smaller and so more can be fitted onto a 12-centimetre disc.


Another format, HD-DVD (High Definition/High Density-DVD), is being promoted by NEC and Toshiba for the same application and is battling with Blu-ray Disc for the market. Players based on that format will be available in 2005, the two companies said at a seminar in Tokyo in July.


The first part of the Blu-ray Disc format to be standardized was that for rewritable discs. The first version of the BD-RE format covers single-layer discs with 23GB, 25GB and 27GB capacities and dual-layer discs with 50GB capacity. Products supporting that format are on sale in Japan. Sony began selling a recorder last year and Matsushita Electric Industrial, better known as Panasonic, followed with the launch of its first recorder last week. The target market for both is recording of high-definition television.


Format incompatibility hits early adopters


The path for early adopters isn't easy. The Sony machine uses 23GB discs while the Panasonic machine uses 25GB or 50GB discs. The result is that the Sony discs can be used for recording and playback in both machines but the same is not true of the Panasonic discs, according to Panasonic. The Sony machine can read the 25GB disc, after a 90 second delay to recognise the disc, but recording onto the Panasonic discs using the Sony machine is impossible. This will change in future, Sony said.


Sony was one of a small number of companies at the event that was demonstrating prototype Blu-ray Disc machines. Its device was a Blu-ray Disc player for BD-ROM format discs. BD-ROM is a new format that hasn't been commercially launched yet and has been developed for prerecorded content.


Version 1.0 of the BD-ROM physical format was approved in June this year and work is continuing on several other aspects of it, such as the codec that will be used for video compression. Current BD-RE machines use MPEG-2, but the format group is considering the adoption of MPEG-4 AVC FRExt or Microsoft's VC9 codec. Both of these are more efficient than MPEG-2 so more video can be stored on the disc.The HD-DVD group has already made MPEG-4 and VC9 a part of its format.


A decision on the inclusion of these was due in July but has been delayed slightly, said Makoto Morise, assistant general manager at Panasonic. He said he expects a decision soon that will call for the inclusion of at least one of the two codecs.


Development roadmap defined


The group is also looking at higher read/write speeds than the standard 36Mbps. Its format roadmap calls for a 2x version of the write-once BD-R format to be approved in September this year and a 2x version of the BD-RE format to be approved in October.


A 4x version of BD-R is also tentatively scheduled for next year and the group said it is looking at 6x discs as a future technology. However, standing in the way of faster discs is more than just format finalization. Higher speeds demand stronger lasers and there is no word on when those may be available.


Also being looked at for the future is a quad-layer version of BD-R that will be able to hold around 100GB of data.


Other prototypes on display on Tuesday included a Blu-ray Disc recorder from Samsung. It is based on the ATSC (Advanced Television Systems Committee) high-definition broadcasting format in use in the US and South Korea. Samsung plans to have the machine on sale in those markets by the end of this year, said Ko Jungwan, a principal engineer at Samsung's audio-visual application lab. The machine will also be capable of CD and DVD playback, he said.


The presentation in Tokyo and those in the US last week were held to explain the format and promote a new association that will be open to any company in the industry. Wide support is important for any new standard and especially so for Blu-ray Disc because its competing against HD-DVD in a market where consumers have shown in the past a strong preference for a single standard.


Wooing Hollywood


Both the Blu-ray Disc and HD-DVD groups see the support of content providers, especially movie studios, as vital and the events in the US last week included promotions to Hollywood studios, said Morise. For such companies a key issue is the time and cost of producing a single disc. Blu-ray Disc and HD-DVD groups generally agree on production cost and both say they expect the discs to cost a little more than DVDs to produce.


There are bigger differences between the two standards in the time taken to produce a disc. Disc-maker Memory-Tech said in July that it can already produce HD-DVDs in volume and at yields of over 90 per cent. It said it takes 3.5 seconds to make a single HD-DVD compared with around 3 seconds for a DVD.


In contrast, Sony said in presentations in the US last week that it is aiming for a production time of 4 seconds and indicated that it expects to achieve this in about a year from now. Panasonic's estimate for disc production is 5 seconds, according to the same presentation. For a single disc the difference isn't much but it can become substantial when the global disc production industry, which produces hundreds of millions of discs per year, is considered.


Following the Tokyo event, which drew participants from several Asian nations including Japan, South Korea and Taiwan, the group will prepare to accept applications for membership. It is planning its first major meeting in Tokyo on October 4 and its first board meeting in November at an undisclosed location.

This is news from the USA Blu-ray event 6 days ago....there is another BRD even today in japan so hopefully some updated news will trickle out from there pretty soon....

 

[deadhorse32]

If Sony really support both i guess it means BRD has failed .....

 

[Kleegamefan]

I disagree....

 

[deadhorse32]

It shows a lack of confidence in the BRD format .... which imply nothing good

 

[DSN2K]

MD all over again.

 

[Deleted member 284]

It shows a lack of confidence in the BRD format .... which imply nothing good

Millhouse has a point. Its not like you hear HD-DVD makers/supporters making dual drives. Especially since these are supposed to be competing formats. Sucks, cause I really wanted BRD to succeed.

 

[cybamerc]

I doubt Sony has any intention of supporting HD-DVD. In fact, I could swear I've read them saying that they won't.

 

[Kleegamefan]

There are no HD-DVD products for sale.......so in comparison, Blu-ray is a raging success....

Plus, you could look at this the other way as well....AOD/HD-DVD, which, do not forget, was announced *after* Blu-ray, hasn't made that much effort towards a single format either.....2 of AODs major backers are Toshiba and Warner, both of whom are the major licenceholders of the DVD format....

The both have a large revenue stream to lose if an optical HD format(one that, say, that doesn't use DVD patents) becomes sucessful in the long term...Warner especially

In case the lack of support behind AOD/HD-DVD didn't imply it, there is alot pent up dissatisfaction against the DVD forum among the major CE companies.....Warren Lieberfarb made TONS of enemies during his tenure at Warner....the unsatisfaction of the major CE and Movie studios against Warner and Lieberfarb is well documented....

The major mouthpiece for HD-DVD and the antagonist against Blu-ray is TimeWarner/Warren Lieberfarb(Mr. "Blu-ray is vaporware') so it is no surprise to me that there is so much support for Blu-ray at this time

The news that Sony is considering a dual-format BRD-HD-DVD drive sounds like good news to me, considering people were complaining of a format war, but then some people are never happy...

At any rate....here is some more info from Video Business:

HD DVD FORMAT TO INTRO EARLY 2005

Blue-ray backers also mark progress

By Paul Sweeting 7/30/2004

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

JULY 30 | Angling for the inside track in the high-def sweepstakes, backers of the HD DVD format last week formally unveiled plans to introduce HD hardware and prerecorded software early next year.

If the ambitious rollout plans succeed, they would give HD DVD backers a jump on the rival Blu-ray Disc camp, which appears to be on track for a 2006 launch.

Kicking off a three-day "HD DVD Showcase," in Tokyo, format developers Toshiba Corp. and NEC Corp. said they plan to have HD DVD players, and possibly a recorder, on the market in the U.S. and Japan in 2005.

They also picked up their first prerecorded software support, from Japanese programmer Pony Canyon, which said it will release eight HD DVD titles in conjunction with the hardware's introduction.

Not to be outdone, the Blu-ray Disc Assn. held its first organizational meeting in San Jose, Calif., on Wednesday.

An outgrowth of the original Blu-ray Disc Founders Group, the BDA is meant to provide a structure similar to the DVD Forum that will allow studios and other hardware and technology companies to be involved in or support the format.

The DVD Forum voted earlier this year to support HD DVD.

Representatives from Disney, Universal, Warner and Fox attended the meeting, along with Sony Pictures, but no studio beside Sony committed to joining the association.

Several high-tech companies from nearby Silicon Valley also were on hand.

Blu-ray officials would not discuss details of the meeting. But sources said the new association would have three levels of membership, modeled closely on the three-level DVD Forum organization.

Each successive level, in conjunction with successively higher dues, will offer members increasing access to technical information about the format, up to the opportunity to contribute directly to its development and sit on the group's board of directors.

"The question is what does each level mean in terms of your commitment?" to the format, one attendee said. "It's hard to know how much you want to support the format until you know more about it, but to know more about it you have to make a commitment to joining."

Another source said the group appears to be making an effort to be less opaque.

"They recognize that there's a perception that they're a secretive organization, so they're trying to set up something like the DVD Forum to let more people in," the source said.

No U.S. studio has committed to the HD DVD format yet, either, despite its backers aggressive new timetable.

Although the Blu-ray meeting offered little in the way of new technical information about the format, attendees said, the format's supporters appeared to have backed off from their most aggressive timetable for launch.

"You don't hear the words '2005' anymore. They now talk about 2006," one source said.

In July, however, the head of Sony's game business, Ken Kutaragi told a PlayStation developers meeting that the company planned to have a working version of its next-generation console on display in May 2005 at the E3 show in Los Angeles.

Although Sony has not said so formally, it is widely expected that the new system will include Blu-ray technology.
In addition to software support from Pony Canyon, HD DVD backers also appeared to get a boost last week from Microsoft.

A representative of Microsoft's Japanese subsidiary told the HD DVD gathering in Tokyo that the software giant's next-generation operating system, code-named Longhorn, would include support the HD DVD format.

A Microsoft spokesman in the U.S., however, said the decision to support HD DVD did not indicate an exclusive commitment to that format.

"We're still evaluating the final feature set of the forthcoming operating system, and nothing is set in stone at this point," said Jonathan Usher, director of Microsoft's Windows Digital Media division. "Microsoft remains neutral with respect to the technology we plan to support for high definition DVD playback in future versions of Windows, and we remain committed to discussions underway with other groups like Blu-Ray."

In addition to including support for Blu-ray in Longhorn, Microsoft is also in talks with Blu-ray's developers over the prospect of incorporating into format specs Microsoft's Windows Media 9 compression software.

Last year, the Blu-ray Disc Founders Group rejected a proposal by Microsoft, but recently agreed to reconsider that decision.

A Microsoft spokesman said those discussions were "going well," but the outcome remained uncertain.

Final specifications for HD DVD were originally scheduled to be released by the DVD Forum in July, but apparently have been pushed back.

 

[Gorgie]

The Sony machine uses 23GB discs while the Panasonic machine uses 25GB or 50GB discs.

Imagine games that need all 23GB of space, or more. Insane.

 

[DarienA]

Not having followed this story/debate I have to ask... how is this any different than the DVD writing drives that came out support both formats? There were multiple writing formats right?

 

[jarrod]

So will the new PSX play XBox games too?

 

[cybamerc]

There are no HD-DVD products for sale.......so in comparison, Blu-ray is a raging success....

Please... there's no prerecorded content and the recorders will likely be obsolete once the spec is finalized. I'm sure NEC and Toshiba could release HD-DVD drives if they didn't give a crap about future compatibility.

 

[Kleegamefan]

Not having followed this story/debate I have to ask... how is this any different than the DVD writing drives that came out support both formats? There were multiple writing formats right?

It is very much like that, except you are talking about 2 formats...one with the support of 2-3 companies (HD-DVD) and one with the support of everybody else (Blu-ray)

 

[kaching]

Millhouse has a point. Its not like you hear HD-DVD makers/supporters making dual drives.

Considering how rapidly the situation is developing/changing on both fronts, and since I think this is the first time we've heard this suggested, I think it's premature to call what this is anything other than "interesting".

 

[Kleegamefan]

Please... there's no prerecorded content and the recorders will likely be obsolete once the spec is finalized. I'm sure NEC and Toshiba could release HD-DVD drives if they didn't give a crap about future compatibility.

And what makes you say that ????

I have not seen anything to indicate that at all??

They have no shipping products!!!

The HD-DVD spec, which was supposed to be finalized last month, has been pushed back to some unknown date

They have no support!!!

For some reason, there is something going on with HD-DVD that gives people on this forum a lot of faith in it, but I just don't see it....

Could someone enlighten me????

 

[Midas]

Considering how rapidly the situation is developing/changing on both fronts, and since I think this is the first time we've heard this suggested, I think it's premature to call what this is anything other than "interesting".

IAWTP

First time I wrote that, OMG!

 

[sonycowboy]

And what makes you say that ????

I have not seen anything to indicate that at all??

They have no shipping products!!!

The HD-DVD spec, which was supposed to be finalized last month, has been pushed back to some unknown date

They have no support!!!

For some reason, there is something going on with HD-DVD that gives people on this forum a lot of faith in it, but I just don't see it....

Could someone enlighten me????

Because Sony is behind Blu-Ray for the PS3. I didn't hear even half the crap I've heard trying to pump up HD-DVD until it was speculated that Blu-Ray would be in the PS3 and would potentially allow Sony to make a truly convergent home entertainment device. The idea of that scares the crap out of quite a few.

 

[kaching]

Other prototypes on display on Tuesday included a Blu-ray Disc recorder from Samsung. It is based on the ATSC (Advanced Television Systems Committee) high-definition broadcasting format in use in the US and South Korea. Samsung plans to have the machine on sale in those markets by the end of this year, said Ko Jungwan, a principal engineer at Samsung's audio-visual application lab. The machine will also be capable of CD and DVD playback, he said.

Boo to ATSC support only...what about QAM/Cable HD recording? Is it really too much to ask? At this rate, first one to get me a video recorder that can manage HD recording from any broadcast source will probably get my money.

 

[cybamerc]

Kleegamefan:

> They have no shipping products!!!

So what? What's the point in making the hardware before content providers are ready? What's the point in making hardware when you haven't even finalized the spec?

> The HD-DVD spec, which was supposed to be finalized last month, has been pushed
> back to some unknown date

Again, so what? The BRD spec isn't finalized either.

> They have no support!!!

Sure they do.

> For some reason, there is something going on with HD-DVD that gives people on this
> forum a lot of faith in it, but I just don't see it....

It's not a matter of faith. I just don't see what BRD has over it at this point.

 

[jarrod]

It is very much like that, except you are talking about 2 formats...one with the support of 2-3 companies (HD-DVD) and one with the support of everybody else (Blu-ray)

One with the support of the DVD forum and one without?

 

[cja]

For some reason, there is something going on with HD-DVD that gives people on this forum a lot of faith in it, but I just don't see it....

Could someone enlighten me????

The companies that voted for AOD to become the HD-DVD format:

Toshiba
NEC
Time Warner
Microsoft
Intel
IBM
Mitsubishi
Pioneer
Hollywood Advisory Committee

Of course the worlds biggest computer company, the worlds biggest software company, the worlds biggest media company, the worlds biggest CPU maker, Hollywood and key Japanese consumer electronics companies are meaningless!

 

[cybamerc]

Don't forget the DVD Forum. The industry after all is larger than a bunch of, admittedly, big electronics companies.

 

[deadhorse32]

They have no support!!!

Could someone enlighten me????

http://www.bizreport.com/article.php?art_id=7725

At the briefing, Pony Canyon Inc, a music, video and game software unit of radio station Nippon Broadcasting System Inc., said it planned to launch a series of movies in the HD DVD format next year, becoming the first content creator to commit itself to offering HD DVD-based content.

 

[Kleegamefan]

The companies that voted for AOD to become the HD-DVD format:

Toshiba
NEC
Time Warner
Microsoft
Intel
IBM
Mitsubishi
Pioneer
Hollywood Advisory Committee

I honestly didn't know about that.....that is a pretty impressive list and it includes a couple of Blu-ray backers (Mistusbishi and of all companies, Pioneer Electronics)

I would like to learn more about this....could you provide me a link?

Cybermerc, the BRD-RE format has been finalized for over a year...perhaps this is why BRD-RE stuff is for sale???

 

[cybamerc]

Cybermerc, the BRD-RE format has been finalized for over a year...perhaps this is why BRD-RE stuff is for sale???

Oh please. Anything that they're considering changing is not finalized.

 

[cja]

I honestly didn't know about that.....that is a pretty impressive list and it includes a couple of Blu-ray backers (Mistusbishi and of all companies, Pioneer Electronics)

I would like to learn more about this....could you provide me a link?

Cybermerc, the BRD-RE format has been finalized for over a year...perhaps this is why BRD-RE stuff is for sale???

I posted info (think it was a wall street journal report) late last year on gaf about blu-ray members voting for the HD-DVD proposal, remember pana's damage control well . I'll dig the story up, only reference I can find to it via google is a comment at anandtech unfortunately:

http://www.anandtech.com/news/shownews.html?i=21028

 

[kaching]

Considering that the DVD forum is partially comprised of the companies working away separately at the BRD spec, for which it was specifically decided not to submit it to the DVD forum, I'm not sure how meaningful it is that AOD has DVD forum support...what other options were submitted to them to succeed DVD? Red Laser HD DVD? China's EVD format?

 

[jarrod]

Considering that the DVD forum is partially comprised of the companies working away separately at the BRD spec, for which it was specifically decided not to submit it to the DVD forum, I'm not sure how meaningful it is that AOD has DVD forum support...what other options were submitted to them to succeed DVD? Red Laser HD DVD? China's EVD format?

Sure, but at the same time implying that the whole of the BRD forum are behind BRD 100% seems a bit too giving as well. Really right now it seems that just a few founding companies are totally committed to one format (Sony/Matsushita/Phillips for BRD and NEC/Toshiba for HD-DVD) with pretty much everyone else open to both or pledging vocal support while waiting for a victor.

 

[deadhorse32]

Considering that the DVD forum is partially comprised of the companies working away separately at the BRD spec, for which it was specifically decided not to submit it to the DVD forum, I'm not sure how meaningful it is that AOD has DVD forum support...what other options were submitted to them to succeed DVD? Red Laser HD DVD? China's EVD format?

March 2003

There are now at least 5 candidates for high-definition DVD. (See 3.13 for details).
HD-DVD-9 (aka HD-9).
Advanced Optical Disc (AOD).
Blu-ray (BD).
Advanced Optical Storage Research Alliance (AOSRA), Blue-HD-DVD-1.
AOSRA Blue-DVD-DVD-2.

http://www.dvddemystified.com/dvdfaq.html#6.5

 

[Squeak]

It's not a matter of faith. I just don't see what BRD has over it at this point.

One word: Cartridge.

 

[jarrod]

One word: Cartridge.

They dropped the caddy. BD uses a thick coating instead now for protection... which is good as plastic caddies would drive costs up.

 

[kaching]

Milhouse: thanks for that but what I'm asking is which DVD successor formats have been formally submitted to the DVD forum, not what successor formats exist. I think the only one that may have made it in front of the forum was HD DVD 9 which, as the FAQ indicates, pretty naturally folds into AOD.

jarrod: I'm not Pana, and I already supported you about this last week when you previously made this point about BRD forum members not necessarily supporting BRD 100%. I've implied nothing about their support for BRD being 100%.

I'm challenging what it really means that AOD has DVD Forum blessing, including from some of the BRD backers. BRD Forum members have known that they weren't going to submit BRD to the DVD Forum and they also knew that they weren't going to simply exit the DVD Forum because of it - after all, the DVD forum will continue to represent the *existing* DVD format that everyone supports for quite sometime to come. The DVD forum was naturally going to have to consider a successor even as they continue to support the current format. But what options did they have to evaluate, what other formats have been submitted? I think AOD and HD DVD 9 were the only two, and they're obviously complimentary. The fact that a few BRD forum members chose to support that doesn't necessarily mean that they are hedging their bets or actively defecting, it may mean they simply see no reason to stand in the way of such proceedings, esp. when they seem to be a foregone conclusion with no other suitors at the table.

 

[Squeak]

They dropped the caddy. BD uses a thick coating instead now for protection... which is good as plastic caddies would drive costs up.

I don't think there’s a final decision on that issue.
A coating can never replace a caddy for protection purposes, cartridges you can replace when they get worn out, and move the disc to a new one. The only coating hard enough to withstand the same conditions a cartridge protected disc would be able to withstand, is diamond coating.
Maybe pre-recorded discs will be "naked" and record able ones in cartridge?
About the difference in price, all CDs and DVDs come in expensive multipart covers so I can't really see how a cartridge would ad that much to the price, if at all. With cartridges you could get by with just a simple plastic or cardboard sleeve.

 

[PS2 KID]

People forget that Sony was the company that ended the DVD+ and DVD- war by introducing the first DVD burner to support both formats and their respective RW recording abilities.