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[Stele]

In both cases, none of their writings exist. We only know of them from the writings of their pupils/disciples. There is no historical records of both individuals either.

Historical records of them in what? English? Probably not. I can guarantee you Confucius is very much prevalent in Chinese records, lol. His latest descendent (77th-generation) is Kong Decheng, born in 1920.

 

[videogamer]

No, first hand accounts from people who actually live in Indonesia and Malaysia.

1. Not just Indonesia and Malaysia were hit.
2. Many missionaries don't do a good job of presenting themselves (and thus their religion).

 

[Chrono]

1. Not just Indonesia and Malaysia were hit.
2. Many missionaries don't do a good job of presenting themselves (and thus their religion).

dude if those accounts are from people like Iceman, they probably think being a non-christian is hostile. -__-

 

[Saturnman]

Only 77 generations, after 2500 years? They breed really slowly.

From my stint in East Asian studies in university, there is no definitive proof. No historical document attesting his then current existence. He was probably not too important in his time and grew in popularity as his teachings, through his students and the students of his students, spread.

But he probably did exist. There was nothing too supernatural and far-fetched about him.

 

[Stele]

1. Not just Indonesia and Malaysia were hit.
2. Many missionaries don't do a good job of presenting themselves (and thus their religion).

They could present themselves as well as they want. These people have established civilizations (with religion) dating back millennia. It's pure Western hubris to think they even need Christianity.

From my stint in East Asian studies in university...

From my stint in East Asian studies, I've found it is completely useless. And I don't see how 77 generations in 2400 years is slow.

 

[Nerevar]

It is in 3 ways at least.

- if you take the immaculate conception at face value, Jesus was really the Son of God and Mary just gave birth to him. There is no ethnicity as he is divine. He just happens to live in Palestine among Jews.

- Like for Confucius and Socrates, there is no direct proof of Jesus' existence. It looks like he really existed from the indirect proof, but you can not be completely sure. Since you already cast doubts on his very existence, the same goes for his ethnicity. Nothing is certain.

- When Mary got pregnant, her fiancé Joseph was upset about it. If you don't believe in the immaculate conception, you'd suspect Joseph to have fornicated with her and the messiah bit is just the cover-up (by the authors of the Gospels), but there is also the possibility that somebody other than Joseph impregnated her. Could be another Jew, but since Palestine was at the crossroads and occupied by the Romans, it could be someone else.

now you're nitpicking

Like I said, according to standard Biblical teachings, Jesus was the king of Jews, therefore, by extension, a Jew himself. As to whether you want to challenge his very existence, well, I'll let you argue with the Bible-thumpers from here until eternity on that.

 

[Saturnman]

Human lifespan was much shorter than it is now through most of history. And that includes China.

I'm not saying it is impossible that the 'Confucius line' procreated every 32 years or so on average, just odd.

 

[Stele]

No, average lifespan was shorter. The Kong family was nobility, and with the concubinage system and power intrigues between the sons, the son that is eventually recognized as carrying on the line can be more than a generation younger than the father.

 

[Saturnman]

As I said, odd.

 

[Teza]

Really?

Ask yourself, then, why one of (if not the) the largest supporters of Zionism in America is the evangelical Christian community.

That's a poor example.

Evangelical Christians who support Zionism see Israel as one step towards the fulfilment of Biblical prophecy, i.e., the second coming of Christ. They are using the Jews to satiate their own eschatological vision.

 

[Guileless]

I live in an area where Southern Baptists are the dominant denomination, so I have ample experience with the hypocrisy that results from the gap in evangelical rhetoric and their actual practices--e.g. domestic abuse, racism, and divorce rates.

However, these people are actually dedicating their lives to helping people who need it. I would think that the tsunami victims would rather receive real help--along with pamphlets about Christianity--than the abstract moral support of internet forum members living comfortable lives.

 

[xsarien]

However, these people are actually dedicating their lives to helping people who need it. I would think that the tsunami victims would rather receive real help--along with pamphlets about Christianity--than the abstract moral support of internet forum members living comfortable lives.

How about "Fuck the pamphlets"? I get the feeling that anyone who's truly religious would recognize that simple, yet apparent act of humility and not worry about whether or not the person they helped knew their religion.

And don't talk to me about "abstract moral support," or anyone for that matter. You don't have a list of who's donated to various charities focused on this disaster.

 

[Loki]

That's a poor example.

Evangelical Christians who support Zionism see Israel as one step towards the fulfilment of Biblical prophecy, i.e., the second coming of Christ. They are using the Jews to satiate their own eschatological vision.

I'm aware of their motivations; the point is that if they harbored such virulent anti-semitic sentiment, it'd likely militate against such eschatological beliefs (at least somewhat), though perhaps their religious convictions would supersede their personal loathing of the Jews. Still, point taken.

 

[Guileless]

Doubtless many people here contributed to the relief effort. However, even if it's a significant amount it pales in comparison to the contribution of someone who lives there full-time and has dedicated themselves to missionary work.

I understand the point about helping people for the sake of helping people, but--as long as they follow the local laws governing proselytizing--I personally do not feel comfortable criticizing foreign missionaries working in impoverished countries.

 

[videogamer]

A Virginia-based missionary group said this week that it has airlifted 300 "tsunami orphans" from the Muslim province of Banda Aceh to Jakarta, the Indonesian capital, where it plans to raise them in a Christian children's home.

"Normally, Banda Aceh is closed to foreigners and closed to the gospel. But, because of this catastrophe, our partners there are earning the right to be heard and providing entrance for the gospel," WorldHelp said in an appeal for funds on its Web site this week.

The appeal said WorldHelp was working with native-born Christians in Indonesia who want to "plant Christian principles as early as possible" in the 300 Muslim children, all younger than 12, who lost their parents in the tsunami.

"These children are homeless, destitute, traumatized, orphaned, with nowhere to go, nowhere to sleep and nothing to eat. If we can place them in a Christian children's home, their faith in Christ could become the foothold to reach the Aceh people," it said.

The Web site was changed, and the appeal was removed yesterday after The Washington Post called to inquire about it. The Rev. Vernon Brewer, president of WorldHelp in Forest, Va., said in a telephone interview the organization had collected about $70,000 in donations and was seeking to raise another $350,000 to build the orphanage.

Brewer said the Indonesian government gave permission for the orphans to be flown to Jakarta last week and was aware that they would be raised as Christians.

["We have no knowledge of this," Foreign Ministry spokesman Marty Natalegawa said today in Jakarta. "If confirmed, this would constitute a serious violation of the standing ban by the Indonesian government on the adoption of Acehnese children affected by the tsunami disaster and appropriate steps would be taken accordingly." He added that he did not believe any Indonesian official would have approved the transfer of the children.] "These are children who are unclaimed or unwanted. We are not trying to rip them apart from any existing family members and change their culture and change their customs," Brewer said. "These children are going to be raised in a Christian environment. That's no guarantee they will choose to be Christians."

http://stevegilliard.blogspot.com/2005/01/dont-mind-us-while-we-convert-your.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A5018-2005Jan12.html