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[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #3) - That's Not How the Force Works

Surfinn

Member
The main character of the PT was Obi Wan, even though it focused on the Skywalker family.

The conflict between Luke and his nephew and Leia and her son is enough Skywalker family connection that will always be in the background.

I could see how that unintentionally happened via sloppy directing due to the clusterfucks that are the prequels, but the main character is INTENDED to be Anakin, considering he's the center of all three posters.

And I disagree. They've never had a main character NOT be a Skywalker, and I think that's what Kennedy's quote is referring to.

Again, this comes down to interpretation of vague quotes, so no one is right or wrong, at this point.
 
What I think is interesting is that all of this can be true, Leia/Han may know more about Rey's past then they are letting on, without her being a direct family member. Her past could intersect with theirs, and with Luke's, even if she's not the daughter of one of them. It seems plausible that she has some tangential connection to Luke, and the most obvious is that she is his daughter so it's easy to understand why people jump to that conclusion. It was one of the first possibilities I thought after my first viewing. The movie is very obviously setting up her past as a mystery and being deliberately ambiguous about it.

But what if after all that build up and mystery and allusion and obvious speculation that she is from some important bloodline and this all must mean something, that it's nothing? That her parents were just regular students of Luke's makeshift academy who were killed by Kylo, leaving her orphaned? Or hell, maybe they weren't even students, but just collateral damage of the massacre.

And she was just left on Jakku because Luke went AWOL, and Leia/Han were so fucked up over what their own son did that they couldn't take raising this girl themselves, so they dumped her on Jakku with Unkar Plutt, and paid him off with the Falcon to ease the burden looking after this orphan girl put on him.

And what if Rey herself was buying into the obvious idea of her being Luke's daughter, of her life having some big, grander meaning, and her disappointment at finding out the truth mirrors the audience's? And the story becomes not about her finding out the "point" of it all, but about Luke teaching her that her past, or her family, or her lack of family, doesn't define her, it's what she makes for herself in the now that does. Which is actually pretty much what her arc in The Force Awakens was. Letting go of her past and moving forward. It hits on the thematic idea that Abrams has about the Force being the potential for anyone to become special.

I mean, I kind of like the sound of that. This kind of thing to me seems as plausible as anything else at this point.

I'm down for that. It also ties into the redemption of Vader (in the OT). Just a teensy bit.
 

-griffy-

Banned
Like, what if the mirroring of Vader's "No, I am your father" isn't Luke saying the same thing to Rey, but instead the revelation of Luke not being her father is what has enormous, earth shattering implications for Rey's character that she needs to come to terms with.
 
Like, what if the mirroring of Vader's "No, I am your father" isn't Luke saying the same thing to Rey, but instead the revelation of Luke not being her father is what has enormous, earth shattering implications for Rey's character that she needs to come to terms with.

Yeah. And in that case we're already being set up for that loss by the loss of Han - the father she never had - in the previous film.
 

Surfinn

Member
Like, what if the mirroring of Vader's "No, I am your father" isn't Luke saying the same thing to Rey, but instead the revelation of Luke not being her father is what has enormous, earth shattering implications for Rey's character that she needs to come to terms with.
I was thinking of a revelation like this as well. I agree this is possible, it just seems like there's more info we have to suggest she's Luke's. But if they go this direction I believe it could be done well and surprise us all.

I'm actually surprised there's not more talk about Luke and Rey's themes being beautifully intertwined in JW's ending score. Sat in shock as I heard it after my last viewing.
 

-griffy-

Banned
I was thinking of a revelation like this as well. I agree this is possible, it just seems like there's more info we have to suggest she's Luke's. But if they go this direction I believe it could be done well and surprise us all.

I'm actually surprised there's not more talk about Luke and Rey's themes being beautifully intertwined in JW's ending score. Sat in shock as I heard it after my last viewing.

It's very cool, but I think it's important to consider that song is actually more strictly the Force theme, not explicitly Luke's theme. Thought it's often paired with him on screen so it's more unofficially his theme. (You know, this is kind of an interesting thing on its own. Luke doesn't get a track titled "Luke's Theme" on any of the soundtracks. In fact, from what I can see the only characters to get proper titled themes are Princess Leia, Darth Vader, Yoda, Anakin and now Rey.)

She has more of a literal relationship to the Force then she does to Luke at this point, so regardless it's appropriate how those two themes mix and play off of each other. Of course the implication is there should there also be a literal relationship between Rey and Luke as well.
 
Is Imperial March actually formally titled "Vader's Theme" anywhere? I've never owned the old soundtracks, and the digital version I access doesn't actually identify it as such.
 

-griffy-

Banned
Is Imperial March actually formally titled "Vader's Theme" anywhere? I've never owned the old soundtracks, and the digital version I access doesn't actually identify it as such.

It seems to vary. For the Empire Strikes Back soundtrack, on iTunes it's just "The Imperial March," on Spotify it's listed as "The Imperial March - Darth Vader's Theme," and on Amazon it shows "The Imperial March (Darth Vader's Theme)."

EDIT: On the actual physical release it also says "Darth Vader's Theme:"
esb_soundtrack_cover_back.jpg
 
It seems like it's just a colloquial name for the theme since it usually accompanies Vader

EDIT: It's called Imperial March (Darth Vader's Theme) on the soundtrack release
 

FloatOn

Member
this is going to sound very shallow but I hope Rey loses the tied back hair look in future episodes

She looks so much better with her hair down

IMG_0840.png
 
That's what I thought, but I could have definitely seen it just kind of being informally known as Vader's Theme, even if that was never an official title for the theme.
 

Surfinn

Member
It seems to vary. For the Empire Strikes Back soundtrack, on iTunes it's just "The Imperial March," on Spotify it's listed as "The Imperial March - Darth Vader's Theme," and on Amazon it shows "The Imperial March (Darth Vader's Theme)."
Funny you say that, just listened to this on the way to work.
 
Since you read a lot of theories and whatnot on the SW subreddits, what is the consensus on how they are going to explain the Starkiller Base? Or is it even possible to explain it's existence. Like how the First Order managed to create it in the first place and what does it mean that they lost it.

A lot of the theories behind Starkiller revolve around Snoke being Plagueis.

In a nutshell:

Snoke aka Plagueis faked his death and went into hiding. He waited in the shadows watching Palpatine's rise and the Death Stars 1 and 2. During this time he gathered more people loyal to him from the past and/or disenchanted with Palpatine to his side. He saw the flaws of the two Death Stars and channeled pretty much all his assets into making the ultimate DS, far beyond Palpatine's creations.

The novel explanation for the base itself makes more sense than the movie (I'll have to find an excerpt that describes it), but in use it essentially was meant to be the base of the FO's forward operations under the leadership of Hux, with Kylo being the enforcer. They dumped pretty much all they had into making it, and all Snoke/Plagueis is left with now is his base and fleet (of unknown power and size).

So losing Starkiller was a critical blow to the FO, just like the Starkiller attack on the Republic effectively crippled them as well. Both sides are in a shitty spot come Episode VIII.


IMO, that Abrams quote is referring to Finn. He's not any relation to known force users and yet he most likely wields some type of force power. Meaning anyone, even a lowly Stormtrooper, can tap into the power of the force.

This is pure speculation on my part but I think Finn is force-sensitive, but nowhere near Rey (think Leia to Luke), and his "awakening" was when he chose to face Kylo instead of run. I think he will come back in a Leia (OT era) position of leadership, but not go outright Jedi.
 

-griffy-

Banned
It seems like it's just a colloquial name for the theme since it usually accompanies Vader

EDIT: It's called Imperial March (Darth Vader's Theme) on the soundtrack release

That's what I thought, but I could have definitely seen it just kind of being informally known as Vader's Theme, even if that was never an official title for the theme.

Just found pics of the original vinyl release, so it was actually referred to as Darth Vader's Theme as far back as 1980:
 
This is pure speculation on my part but I think Finn is force-sensitive, but nowhere near Rey (think Leia to Luke), and his "awakening" was when he chose to face Kylo instead of run. I think he will come back in a Leia (OT era) position of leadership, but not go outright Jedi.

I thought his awakening was when his buddy smeared blood on his helmet. And if him staying to fight Kylo is his awakening, Finn deciding to go save Rey is a better candidate since that is where his character shifts from coward to courage.


Maybe he's born with it. Maybe it's Force-Maybelline

Just found pics of the original vinyl release, so it was actually referred to as Darth Vader's Theme as far back as 1980:
Nice catch.

Such a big disc for so few songs.
 

Interfectum

Member
A lot of the theories behind Starkiller revolve around Snoke being Plagueis.

In a nutshell:

Snoke aka Plagueis faked his death and went into hiding. He waited in the shadows watching Palpatine's rise and the Death Stars 1 and 2. During this time he gathered more people loyal to him from the past and/or disenchanted with Palpatine to his side. He saw the flaws of the two Death Stars and channeled pretty much all his assets into making the ultimate DS, far beyond Palpatine's creations.

The novel explanation for the base itself makes more sense than the movie (I'll have to find an excerpt that describes it), but in use it essentially was meant to be the base of the FO's forward operations under the leadership of Hux, with Kylo being the enforcer. They dumped pretty much all they had into making it, and all Snoke/Plagueis is left with now is his base and fleet (of unknown power and size).

So losing Starkiller was a critical blow to the FO, just like the Starkiller attack on the Republic effectively crippled them as well. Both sides are in a shitty spot come Episode VIII.

Thanks for the explanations

So unlike what some have been speculating, we aren't gearing for another Rebel vs. Empire style fight, but rather two rivals that are more or less on equal footing due to the massive setbacks from TFA.

And yeah I don't think Finn is setup to be a Jedi, only that the he has some influence in regards to the force.
 

FloatOn

Member
yeah, it's interesting on a macro level that the first order and resistance are on equal footing

and the same is happening on a micro level with kylo and rey in that they will both be trained in the next film

it's almost.... poetic
 

Surfinn

Member
It's very cool, but I think it's important to consider that song is actually more strictly the Force theme, not explicitly Luke's theme. Thought it's often paired with him on screen so it's more unofficially his theme. (You know, this is kind of an interesting thing on its own. Luke doesn't get a track titled "Luke's Theme" on any of the soundtracks. In fact, from what I can see the only characters to get proper titled themes are Princess Leia, Darth Vader, Yoda, Anakin and now Rey.)

She has more of a literal relationship to the Force then she does to Luke at this point, so regardless it's appropriate how those two themes mix and play off of each other. Of course the implication is there should there also be a literal relationship between Rey and Luke as well.

Are ending songs usually intertwined? I know there's different variations of themes/songs in the credits, but have they been mixed together in the past? If not, it's an interesting choice of songs considering the force theme is strongly associated with Luke and his journey.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
Does the novelization explain how the hell Starkiller base was going to fire any more shots after it had removed the sun from its solar system, and how that didn't destroy the base in the process of somehow displacing all that mass?
 

-griffy-

Banned
Are ending songs usually intertwined? I know there's different variations of themes/songs in the credits, but have they been mixed together in the past? If not, it's an interesting choice of songs considering the force theme is strongly associated with Luke and his journey.

The credits music is always a medley of themes, but I can't recall something specifically like those two themes being layered together like that. Apparently Williams hadn't even conceived of them being able to work like that until he just kind of stumbled upon it when writing the end credits music. Here's a really nice interview with Williams all about scoring TFA.
On Rey’s Theme:

“It’s an interesting challenge with her, because her theme doesn’t suggest a love theme in any way. It suggests an adventurer, a female adventurer, but with great strength. She’s a fighter, she’s infused with the Force, and it needed to be something that was strong but thoughtful. She’s a very young girl, but she’s a woman of diverse parts, and so there’s a maturity, I think, about the approach, melodically, to her that I hope will fit her. It seemed particularly challenging, both in the scavenger section in the beginning and in the trip to the island to find Luke in the end, where her theme is pretty fully realized with the orchestra. And it seemed to the right degree of strength and beauty for an adventuress.”

Rey’s theme shares a chordal relationship with the Force theme, and Williams counterpoints the two during the end credits.


“The idea of bringing them together at the end came together at the end. I don’t think I ever played them actually simultaneously until then.”

Williams’ introduction to Rey is scored with flute, celeste, and piano—a surprisingly fragile and interior sound juxtaposed against the enormous, galactic backdrop of a beached star destroyer.

“I thought that something very delicate at that moment… particularly coming after the first reel and the attack on Jaaku, and we’ve just seen her face disguised and so on… and there’s a short flute cadenza when she drinks the water from her emptying canteen, which is a fabulous shot. And I thought that the sand slide should not be big and broad, but make it big when she arrives at her machine and drives off with that. And that we would hear something very delicate, and with some speed in it, though. That I thought would enhance that shot more than something broad and big. And I played it for JJ on my piano here at the house, and he thought also it was a good idea, and we said, ‘We’ll do it.’ And we did it, and I hope it’s right.”
 

Surfinn

Member
The credits music is always a medley of themes, but I can't recall something specifically like those two themes being layered together like that. Apparently Williams hadn't even conceived of them being able to work like that until he just kind of stumbled upon it when writing the end credits music. Here's a really nice interview with Williams all about scoring TFA.

Interesting, thanks for this. Doesn't mean he didn't write Rey's theme with Luke's (force) theme in mind, of course, just that he'd never considered playing them simultaneously before. The blend beautifully, and again, there's surely a reason for this (which he doesn't provide).

Dude's pretty damn humble for who he is. Seems like an awesome guy.
 
Just found pics of the original vinyl release, so it was actually referred to as Darth Vader's Theme as far back as 1980:

Awesome, thanks for doing that legwork. =)

Reading Williams's comments about Rey's Theme is making me think of the sand slide scene and I tear up every time, guys.
 

Surfinn

Member
Awesome, thanks for doing that legwork. =)

Reading Williams's comments about Rey's Theme is making me think of the sand slide scene and I tear up every time, guys.

One of the best parts of the film. My personal favorite is the music that plays when Rey is eating and stares into the sky. Seems to end with the three notes from the Imperial March, interestingly enough.
 
One of the best parts of the film. My personal favorite is the music that plays when Rey is eating and stares into the sky. Seems to end with the three notes from the Imperial March, interestingly enough.

She's chilling at the literal foot of an AT-AT, so I guess I don't find that too surprising. ;p
 

Surfinn

Member
She's chilling at the literal foot of an AT-AT, so I guess I don't find that too surprising. ;p

Lol, I doubt that's why those notes were hit. Either way, that's my favorite part. Reminds me of how the notes were hit in Anakin's Theme, but obviously in a more subtle way.


Well shit, that's already a far cry from Jurassic World, considering that movie has some of the laziest, prequel style CGI ever.
 
Lol, I doubt that's why those notes were hit. Either way, that's my favorite part. Reminds me of how the notes were hit in Anakin's Theme, but obviously in a more subtle way.

Really?

The fact that the new characters are growing up in the shadow of the old conflicts was literally the first big idea they had when developing this film.
 

Surfinn

Member
Really?

The fact that the new characters are growing up in the shadow of the old conflicts was literally the first big idea they had when developing this film.

They show an entire crashed Star Destroyer and Rey inside/outside of it/driving past it (living by scavenging their parts). Why not play those notes then?
 

prag16

Banned
Does the novelization explain how the hell Starkiller base was going to fire any more shots after it had removed the sun from its solar system, and how that didn't destroy the base in the process of somehow displacing all that mass?

The pseudoscience is totally different in the novel. It's getting a little hazy now. I've read a few more books since I read the TFA novelization, but instead of just consuming the entire star, they collect dark energy from it, and store it in containment in the planet core. When it fires, the projectile(s) are described as balls of dark energy. Not linear lasers as depicted in the movie.

I don't think they actually state that the star totally dies when they charge up in the novel, as they seem to show in the movie. Meaning in the book, it's conceivable that they can sit there feeding off the same star many times.

The movie is a bit more problematic. How did they fire the first time? Was that star system originally binary? Is each star good for two "charge-ups"? Otherwise, did they move the planet around? How? Almost everything about the concept of Starkiller is definitely what I dislike most about the movie.
 

Dr Prob

Banned
Just found pics of the original vinyl release, so it was actually referred to as Darth Vader's Theme as far back as 1980:

Went digging in the crates before seeing your post (could have just looked it up!) and found my vinyl copy: http://i.imgur.com/2z3J2Or.png

Not in the greatest shape, but this thing is still cool as hell. Here's the listing:

SIDE TWO
No. 1
The Imperial March (Darth Vader's Theme): The Imperial March also functions as Darth Vader's theme and is based on the war-like triplet figure that serves as its introduction. The melody is heavily scored in octaves for brass and even in the quiet middle section, the triplet moves relentlessly forward. The march ends with a flourish.
 

GhaleonEB

Member
It's kind of funny how you are quickly dismissing Kennedy's quote as an indication (not confirmation) of Rey being a Skywalker, but JJ's vague quote totally reinforces the opposite idea. I mean, I think it could go either way, but it's hard to deny the most plausible outcome is Rey being a Skywalker. Far from definitive, far from watertight, but it is the most plausible hypothesis.

I think you've missed the through line on where I stand on this, which is understandable as I haven't gotten too entangled in the debates. It's possible she's a Skywalker. I think the preponderance of information from the film points otherwise (starting with Maz straight up telling her she's not) - but it's not ruled out. Certainly they're dangling the question.

But Kennedy's statement absolutely does NOT mean Rey has to be a Skywalker. That is the beginning, middle and end of the point I was making.

Kennedy: The saga films are about the Skywalker family saga. TFA: one of the new main characters is a Skywalker. Her statement is 100% true as of right now, because of Ren.

I personally like the idea of a main character force user who is not a Skywalker. But I realize that may not be the case. That said, the film is intentionally ambiguous about it. And here we have the writer/director telling us that he prefers the idea that the Force is more democratic than something limited to a family line.

Abrams: Likes the idea that the Force is something not tied to inheriting, but more wide spread. TFA: one of the new main characters and force user might not be a Skywalker.

I do not think it's in any way a stretch to connect those dots. I don't think it's conclusive, but I cannot see how Abrams quote from that interview does anything but add to the available information pointing to the possibility that Rey is not a Skywalker. We might find out later that's JJ's personal preference and that he chose not to go that way for whatever reason. But it's clearly another signal in that direction, for now.

I just bought the novelization for the movie! I hope it's good. The Force Awakens rocks!

Let us know what you think of it, I'm curious about that myself. I love this movie. Might see it again this weekend.
 
So, I was reading a review on IGN for the most recent Rebels episode, when Eric Goldman, the review, had this to say:

Sabine’s big moment declaring who she was to the Mandalorian warriors was a nice little mini-reveal, as we learned her mother was a member of the Death Watch. This naturally makes us all guess her mom is Bo-Katan, because, well, that’s the only female Death Watch member named in The Clone Wars. But… her mom is totally Bo-Katan, right? Which would make her Satine's niece, which would be an interesting connective tissue between Sabine and Obi-Wan Kenobi. Hmm…

In the comments, I said this in response:

As to what Eric said about Sabine's potential relationship to Satine as her niece, what if she is her niece, but is secretly really her daughter, a daughter that she secretly had with Obi-Wan (I don't even know when that could've possibly happened, only that it would have had to happened some point during the events of the Clone Wars). Now, there are some rumors that Rey from the Force Awakens is Obi-Wan's granddaughter. What if Sabine is Rey's mother? That would be a cool connective tissue of everything. Who would be Rey's father, though? Could it be Luke (making her both Skywalker and Kenobi)? That could be possible and cool and I suppose Luke and Sabine would be similar in age considering Leia was just recently on Rebels and looked not that much younger than her appearance in A New Hope. What about Ezra? That would be a cool twist, huh?

Would you be for or against that, if it was at all possible? Also, as someone speculated earlier (something I also speculated about a while back), what if Ezra is Snoke? That would be interesting. But what if Ezra is Snoke AND Rey's father? That would be really interesting.
 
I personally like the idea of a main character force user who is not a Skywalker. But I realize that may not be the case. That said, the film is intentionally ambiguous about it. And here we have the writer/director telling us that he prefers the idea that the Force is more democratic than something limited to a family line.

I feel the same way. So much about TFA is about new blood and overcoming the old and not being mired in the past. It'll be nice to have a protagonist not attached to the crazy backstory of the Skywalkers.

EDIT:

Has this been mentioned in the thread before?

George Lucas said:
Congratulations on pulling off an amazing show. Don’t tell anyone … but when ‘Star Wars’ first came out, I didn’t know where it was going either. The trick is to pretend you’ve planned the whole thing out in advance. Throw in some father issues and references to other stories — let’s call them homages — and you’ve got a series.

It's from an open letter Lucas wrote to Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse.
 
Did anyone see Colin Trevorrow's request for Episode IX? Now, before we get into it, I know he is not liked here (on the internet in general) but like most internet things, I find the hate is irrationally overblown. But if you didn't hear, he requested that certain sequences in the movie be shot in IMAX in actual outer space. I personally don't see what could be gained in terms of the actual movie (space has looked real enough thus far), but knowing that we'd be seeing actual space would be kind of cool, I guess.
 
Rey is Palpatine reborn

At the end of VIII you will here that famous cackle from her

that one

just close your eyes and imagine rey cackling like that

it's amazing

Daisy could pull it off
 

Falk

that puzzling face
The movie is a bit more problematic. How did they fire the first time? Was that star system originally binary? Is each star good for two "charge-ups"? Otherwise, did they move the planet around? How? Almost everything about the concept of Starkiller is definitely what I dislike most about the movie.

You just kinda shrug and tolerate it the way you shrug and tolerate contemporary pop music.

Something simplified and made really obvious and in-your-face for people of average intelligence.
 

Surfinn

Member
I think too many people are forgetting that JJ no longer has control over the next two films. His ideas for Rey will be changed as the other writers and directors see fit, if they like.

I think this is more for the mere idea of doing it rather than adding anything beneficial to the film.

Talk about a waste of resources. Hope this doesn't happen.
 
I think too many people are forgetting that JJ no longer has control over the next two films. His ideas for Rey will be changed as the other writers and directors see fit, if they like.


I think this is more for the mere idea of doing it rather than adding anything beneficial to the film.

Talk about a waste of resources. Hope this doesn't happen.

If he's executive producer, that means he still gets alot of control on who he chooses to direct/write, whether scenes have to be refilmed or the script has to be changed, among other things. Basically JJAbrams is trying to mimic George Lucas, where George wrote and directed the first movie and then moved to a producer role for the subsequent sequels.

I mean, people are right to call out TFA as having alot of references to the OT. But JJAbrams is going meta and following the role of George Lucas. So I think the sequels will be alright in that sense. And like I said, JJAbramas probably chose the writer based on aligning visions(Or he can just reorder a script, after all they already said they're rewriting some of it)
 
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