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[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #3) - That's Not How the Force Works

L

LegendofLex

Member
Edag88 said:
That's another thing. Even if she's not his daughter necessarily he's still shocked to see her specifically because he obviously knows her. I can't see it any other way.

That's bare minimum.
Click to expand...

I'd say the bare minimum assumption is someone who appears to want to be a Jedi just showed up on the doorstep of the guy whose last batch of trainees was killed by his nephew, who he was also training.

He's clearly been staying away from actively training anyone, so the prospect of having someone new to train would be terrifying and sobering all at the same time - whether he's related to her or not.

I took his reaction as "welp, I guess it's finally come to this. I'm so sorry for the destiny that has been thrust upon you."
 
G

-griffy-

Banned
Paganmoon said:
I didn't get the impression that Luke was shocked or surprised. It looked more like he was finally ready, like this was something he was waiting for (for someone to find him), and expecting, and now it's time for him to get back into the game.
Click to expand...

Yeah it read more like resignation to me. The jig was finally up, and now he's gonna have to face some stuff head on finally.

DavidDesu said:
Anyone think that Episode 8 will continue directly on from TFA or be set a few weeks/months/years after like how the previous trilogies were? It just seems so ripe for a direct continuation on. I don't see how we can NOT see exactly what Rey and Luke say and do at that moment but just have it hinted at. Feels like we need to see that moment.

Rian Johnson has apparently said he will be doing something we've not seen in Star Wars before. Does that mean continue directly on from TFA... maybe feature an extensive flash back then flash forward back to the "present" to cover all of this stuff..? I'm very curious. CANNOT BLOODY WAIT. Best SW film incoming? And yeah I truly love TFA, it gets me every time (4 now), it has a ton of great moments and I actually love the new cast of characters in a way I thought was impossible. The casting and characterisation of them all was exemplary. Really invested in their arcs now, all equally.
Click to expand...

If it's a direct continuation, picking up right with Rey holding the saber out to Luke, then it begs the gigantic question: What is the opening scrawl? Which I think is a fascinating thing to ponder.
 
S

Surfinn

Member
LegendofLex said:
I'd say the bare minimum assumption is someone who appears to want to be a Jedi just showed up on the doorstep of the guy whose last batch of trainees was killed by his nephew, who he was also training.

He's clearly been staying away from actively training anyone, so the prospect of having someone new to train would be terrifying and sobering all at the same time - whether he's related to her or not.
Click to expand...
Seemed to me he was expecting her too, the way he was standing especially.

And yeah, he feels for her as well.. The burden she will now carry.
 
S

Surfinn

Member
LegendofLex said:
Yeah, it's clearly a "I knew this day would come, and I'm sad and scared that it's finally here" sort of moment.
Click to expand...
Exactly. Remember what Yoda said.. "not ready for the burden were you"

I think Luke is in a similar position now, especially considering Yoda's ultimate failure and exile.

He will teach her carefully and judge how much she should know and when.
 
S

Surfinn

Member
LegendofLex said:
I'm so ready. Especially given JJ's comments about the Force possibly not being so tied to blood in the paradigm of the new films.
Click to expand...

Me too.

I've always thought TFA was made to make us THINK he will not be a Jedi, but I'm thinking we're looking at TWO Jedi, not just Rey. There could be some awesome story dynamics if done correctly.

I'm also thinking there's some double fakeout stuff going on. Not to say Rey isn't the centerpiece and main character, of course..
 
T

Toxi

Banned
Edag88 said:
That's another thing. Even if she's not his daughter necessarily he's still shocked to see her specifically because he obviously knows her. I can't see it any other way.

That's bare minimum.
Click to expand...
Maybe he's shocked to see another human being for the first time in years.
 
D

DavidDesu

Member
-griffy- said:
Yeah it read more like resignation to me. The jig was finally up, and now he's gonna have to face some stuff head on finally.



If it's a direct continuation, picking up right with Rey holding the saber out to Luke, then it begs the gigantic question: What is the opening scrawl? Which I think is a fascinating thing to ponder.
Click to expand...

Ahh, very good point. Probably why it's not likely then, lol. I just think it is hard to just carry on weeks or months later not really knowing what happened right after TFA ended. Will the opening crawl just say "Luke reluctantly begins training Rey in the force", I wonder how they're going to adequately fill in the blanks from that ending.
 
S

Surfinn

Member
DavidDesu said:
Anyone think that Episode 8 will continue directly on from TFA or be set a few weeks/months/years after like how the previous trilogies were? It just seems so ripe for a direct continuation on. I don't see how we can NOT see exactly what Rey and Luke say and do at that moment but just have it hinted at. Feels like we need to see that moment.

Rian Johnson has apparently said he will be doing something we've not seen in Star Wars before. Does that mean continue directly on from TFA... maybe feature an extensive flash back then flash forward back to the "present" to cover all of this stuff..? I'm very curious. CANNOT BLOODY WAIT. Best SW film incoming? And yeah I truly love TFA, it gets me every time (4 now), it has a ton of great moments and I actually love the new cast of characters in a way I thought was impossible. The casting and characterisation of them all was exemplary. Really invested in their arcs now, all equally.
Click to expand...
Can you link me to where RJ says this?

Pamplemousse said:
But Finn isn't force sensitive. Is literally everyone going to be using one now?
Click to expand...

The suggestion is that he is and could become a Jedi. My argument is that someone who isn't force sensitive could not have struck Ren in a duel. He's too successful with a saber to not be, IMO.
 
G

GhaleonEB

Member
Pamplemousse said:
But Finn isn't force sensitive. Is literally everyone going to be using one now?
Click to expand...

Whether he is or is not isn't established in the film. Finn never sees anything Rey does with the Force, and is not there when Maz talks with her about it. It's entirely possible. I'm rooting for Jedi Finn, myself. I'd love to see Rey and Finn's adventures together continue with them both in Jedi training, it's a dynamic we've not seen in the films before.

RE: some of the discussion a bit ago - how they handle the time skip from VII to VIII is my biggest question leading into it now. They ended with a scene we very much want to see the end of.
 
S

SlickShoesRUCrazy

Member
Surfinn said:
I'd love to see their progressions as Jedi.
Click to expand...

I think it would be interesting if like Finn was a Jedi like Obi Wan. All light and good.

Rey, if it turns out that she is likes daughter, then there is going to be a struggle between the light and dark, so may be she turns out to be a a gray Jedi. But, if she turns out to be Obi Wans grand daughter or somebody just random, that can be switched with Finn.

Obvious Kylo represents the dark side after killing Han.
 
S

Surfinn

Member
GhaleonEB said:
Whether he is or is not isn't established in the film. Finn never sees anything Rey does with the Force, and is not there when Maz talks with her about it. It's entirely possible. I'm rooting for Jedi Finn, myself. I'd love to see Rey and Finn continue with them both in training, it's a dynamic we've not seen in the films before.

RE: some of the discussion a bit ago - how they handle the time skip from VII to VIII is my biggest question leading into it now. They ended with a scene we very much want to see the end of.
Click to expand...
Right. I've said from the beginning that Finn is FS. I'd love to see the dynamic of two Jedi on different paths. There's a tin of potential, from a storytelling perspective. That doesn't have to mean one is light and the other dark.

Considering all SW have begun with a space dropdown, it'll be interesting to see if and how they continue the cliffhanger.

Reminds me of arguments on how valve would continue HL3.
 
T

TheXbox

Member
DavidDesu said:
Anyone think that Episode 8 will continue directly on from TFA or be set a few weeks/months/years after like how the previous trilogies were? It just seems so ripe for a direct continuation on. I don't see how we can NOT see exactly what Rey and Luke say and do at that moment but just have it hinted at. Feels like we need to see that moment.

Rian Johnson has apparently said he will be doing something we've not seen in Star Wars before. Does that mean continue directly on from TFA... maybe feature an extensive flash back then flash forward back to the "present" to cover all of this stuff..? I'm very curious. CANNOT BLOODY WAIT. Best SW film incoming? And yeah I truly love TFA, it gets me every time (4 now), it has a ton of great moments and I actually love the new cast of characters in a way I thought was impossible. The casting and characterisation of them all was exemplary. Really invested in their arcs now, all equally.
Click to expand...
Prologue, maybe.

But I don't think the movie will open with Rey and Luke. It doesn't need to. We KNOW what happens the moment after the credits roll in TFA. What we don't know is how Hux, Phasma, and Kylo escaped Starkiller Base. We don't know where they'll go, we don't know what Snoke is planning, and we don't know how the Republic has taken to having its capital and its fleet evaporated. Most importantly, Finn is still in a coma. When does he wake up? Where does he go from here? I think these concerns are more immediate than 'what does Luke do next?' He trains her.
 
W

watershed

Banned
GhaleonEB said:
Whether he is or is not isn't established in the film. Finn never sees anything Rey does with the Force, and is not there when Maz talks with her about it. It's entirely possible. I'm rooting for Jedi Finn, myself. I'd love to see Rey and Finn's adventures together continue with them both in Jedi training, it's a dynamic we've not seen in the films before.

RE: some of the discussion a bit ago - how they handle the time skip from VII to VIII is my biggest question leading into it now. They ended with a scene we very much want to see the end of.
Click to expand...

I think the time jump is going to be substantial enough that we never see the "start" of Rey and Luke's relationship. I imagine that when we meet them again in Ep 8 Rey will already be training with Luke or they will be on some sort of journey together. Of course their relationship will still be developing but it won't be at the start. And so we will never see how the final scene of Ep 8 played out. But expanded media will fill in all those bits.

And I predict Finn will be force sensitive just because it would be cool!
 
D

DiipuSurotu

Banned
I think it's pretty clear that Finn is Force-"Schrodinger cat" in TFA. As in, J.J. and Kasdan carefully did everything they could to make it 100% ambiguous whether he is Force-sensitive or not. It will be up to Johnson to make a decision on this topic. For now, there is no way to tell.
 
G

GhaleonEB

Member
Surfinn said:
Right. I've said from the beginning that Finn is FS. I'd love to see the dynamic of two Jedi on different paths. There's a tin of potential, from a storytelling perspective. That doesn't have to mean one is light and the other dark.

Considering all SW have begun with a space dropdown, it'll be interesting to see if and how they continue the cliffhanger.

Reminds me of arguments on how valve would continue HL3.
Click to expand...

If they want to go with 1) no time skip, and 2) continue the tradition of panning through space toward something, and 3) open with an action sequence, they could open by panning down to the planet, right as the First Order ships arrive and interrupt Rey and Luke's first meeting. Cue escape sequence as Rey brings Luke back to Leia and the gang.

Though I'm guessing there will be a time skip.

watershed said:
I think the time jump is going to be substantial enough that we never see the "start" of Rey and Luke's relationship. I imagine that when we meet them again in Ep 8 Rey will already be training with Luke or they will be on some sort of journey together. Of course their relationship will still be developing but it won't be at the start. And so we will never see how the final scene of Ep 8 played out. But expanded media will fill in all those bits.

And I predict Finn will be force sensitive just because it would be cool!
Click to expand...

Yeah, I think this is more likely. Glad to see #teamjedifinn forming. :D
 
S

Surfinn

Member
TheXbox said:
Prologue, maybe.

But I don't think the movie will open with Rey and Luke. It doesn't need to. We KNOW what happens the moment after the credits roll in TFA. What we don't know is how Hux, Phasma, and Kylo escaped Starkiller Base. We don't know where they'll go, we don't know what Snoke is planning, and we don't know how the Republic has taken to having its capital and its fleet evaporated. Most importantly, Finn is still in a coma. When does he wake up? Where does he go from here? I think these concerns are more immediate than 'what does Luke do next?' He trains her.
Click to expand...

This is a good point. We certainly DON'T have to see what happens right from where we were left off, otherwise it would have just been all saved for Ep. 8. We will probably begin elsewhere.

GhaleonEB said:
If they want to go with 1) no time skip, and 2) continue the tradition of panning through space toward something, and 3) open with an action sequence, they could open by panning down to the planet, right as the First Order ships arrive and interrupt Rey and Luke's first meeting. Cue escape sequence as Rey brings Luke back to Leia and the gang.

Though I'm guessing there will be a time skip.



Yeah, I think this is more likely. Glad to see #teamjedifinn forming. :D
Click to expand...

I kind of hope we don't get another chase sequence this early. We need to SLOW DOWN and breathe. I'm guessing time skip and we see what's going on with the dark side (Snoke, Kylo, Hux).
 
F

FriendlyGoat

Member
Regarding the time skip, I feel pretty confident they'll keep it in. Picking up where they left off leaves some baggage to deal with that could result in a slow start. Like, while watching Rey and Luke immediately after their meeting would be interesting, watching her train, watching Finn and Kylo recover (and also train) seems like an awkward start and like was previous said, we know and expect all that.

i think jumping ahead and leaving the audience to figure things out gives them more opportunity for storytelling, and provides space to exploit the interim with books and games and general merchandise.

The only real issue to me is how they handle Finn. Just having him up and operating at the beginning seems like it would be a little more jarring than the other characters, but I suspect they might do something similar to Han Solo between V and VI, where he is literally frozen and picks up right where he left off in the previous film. Considering Finn is essentially the audience surrogate, having him wake up from the coma to a whole new status quo leaves him to ask the questions and figure out what the hell is going on right along with the audience.
 
S

Surfinn

Member
FriendlyGoat said:
Regarding the time skip, I feel pretty confident they'll keep it in. Picking up where they left off leaves some baggage to deal with that could result in a slow start. Like, while watching Rey and Luke immediately after their meeting would be interesting, watching her train, watching Finn and Kylo recover (and also train) seems like an awkward start and like was previous said, we know and expect all that.

i think jumping ahead and leaving the audience to figure things out gives them more opportunity for storytelling, and gives them space to exploit the interim with books and games and general merchandise.

The only real issue to me is how they handle Finn. Just having him up and operating at the beginning seems like it would be a little more jarring than the other characters, but I suspect they might do something similar to Han Solo between V and VI, where he is literally frozen and picks up right where he left off in the previous film. Considering Finn is essentially the audience Surrogate, having him wake up from the coma to a whole new status quo leaves him to ask the questions and figure out what the hell is going on right along with the audience.
Click to expand...

Good ideas. I agree with skipping forward and letting Finn fill in blanks.
 
S

Surfinn

Member
SlickShoesRUCrazy said:
That's how I see it.
Click to expand...

Possible. I think the awakening isn't just about Rey, like I've said before, but we just see her perspective how important she is in it.

If RJ truly IS doing different things with SW, then part of that could be explaining more of the grand picture of what that awakening is. We know it HAPPENED, as it was introduced to us in TFA, but we don't know the ultimate ramifications of where it will take the story.
 
prag16

prag16

Banned
The indication seems to largely be that Finn is NOT force sensitive. But I guess they may have left the door open a crack. Doubt we'll see that, but could be wrong. But I try not to get hopes up if I were you guys. I think all of us are kind of seeing what we want to see in varying ways.
 
C

Cth

Member
DiipuSurotu said:
I think it's pretty clear that Finn is Force-"Schrodinger cat" in TFA. As in, J.J. and Kasdan carefully did everything they could to make it 100% ambiguous whether he is Force-sensitive or not. It will be up to Johnson to make a decision on this topic. For now, there is no way to tell.
Click to expand...

Yes and no.

As of this moment, all indications are that Finn is NOT Force sensitive. While not stated specifically in the film, there are multiple merchandising factors to consider. These factors would have been set in stone from higher ups.

As we saw, they tried their hardest to hide that Rey was a Jedi.. a few things slipped through.. that battery commercial and that card game. Since there seems to have been the suggestion of execs telling toy makers to avoid making Rey saber toys, and to hide that aspect, it says to me the game one gets similar weight.

If you'll recall, the card game had Rey as Force Sensitive (which a lot of people noticed) and Finn NOT Force Sensitive. This says to me that execs, in their current mindset, have decided Finn is NOT a Force user.

Does this mean, he'll never be a Jedi? Nope. As you said, Johnson could make a pitch that changes their minds.

The real question is, if Finn suddenly DOES become Force Sensitive, will there be the same Mary Sue/Gary Stu arguments? Will it be cynically seen as a way to placate people upset at being misled?
 
T

TyrantII

Member
Edag88 said:
That's another thing. Even if she's not his daughter necessarily he's still shocked to see her specifically because he obviously knows her. I can't see it any other way.

That's bare minimum.
Click to expand...

Maybe, but Kylo is shocked and scared when she turned against him in the Starkiller scenes. She's oozing force, and those with force knowledge can feel it.

Plus in the back of Luke's mind is the prophecy of the one who will bring balance to the force. It wasn't his father, and he knows it was not him.
 
D

DavidDesu

Member
Speaking of Finn... he was seriously injured by Kylo Ren, he more or less had his spine lightsabred all the way up. I have a weird feeling he might start off Ep.8 crippled in some way, or at the least up and walking about but getting used to some kind of robotic cybernetic spine or something.

They made a big enough deal out of his injury and being in a coma I just don't see him walking around as normal like nothing happened, but of course the actor is in training so of course I don't think he'll be out of action for too long. Maybe he will begin using the Force and that explains his recuperation...?

I hope Rey, Finn and Poe all get back together in this film and that Rey's not out with just Luke for too long.
 
K

KoruptData

Member
Came across this on my Facebook feed and remembering the scene. It was shot in such a way that could support this theory.

rEvuVWV.jpg
 
V

Vyer

Member
No, they did struggle after Ben at first seemed to start willingly hand it over. Once Han grabs it, Kylo stops him from pulling it away.
 
M

Mr Cola

Brothas With Attitude / The Wrong Brotha to Fuck Wit / Die Brotha Die / Brothas in Paris
Blunoise said:
I don't see no injured Finn, I see a stronger Finn coming. They waney lying that he maybe the biggest dude in Star Wars
Click to expand...

Hes working his arms so he has the strength to push his wheelchair around in episode 8

Paralysed from the waist down

Cannon
 
L

Lmo911

Member
Man I want a dual journey for Rey and Finn in VIII. Rey can get the proper training with Luke while Finn has to wing it through some kind of rehab involving Maz. By the end of his training Finn pulls off some amazing force of will moment (walking again when no says he can?) and seals the deal he's has the gift but not in the classical sense. Then he reunites with Rey in some round two battle with the Knights of Ren.

Hell, make it a triple journey with Kylo finishing his training by killing Snoke and taking over!

Episode VIII longest training montage ever!
 
F

Farsi

Member
KoruptData said:
Came across this on my Facebook feed and remembering the scene. It was shot in such a way that could support this theory.

rEvuVWV.jpg
Click to expand...

That would actually be some really great writing if it attributed to Kylo turning on the FO. You can also use that for Rey's turn to the DS.

If they need a twist that would match ESP, that would be it. I don't think they do it though.
 
S

Surfinn

Member
KoruptData said:
Came across this on my Facebook feed and remembering the scene. It was shot in such a way that could support this theory.

rEvuVWV.jpg
Click to expand...

When Ren was struggling (mentally, not physically), and both of their hands were on the saber, it was turned sideways. So if Han would have simply pressed the button, it would have activated off to the side, not straight through his body. Unless it's arguing that Han activated AND turned, stabbed himself with the saber (which I think is a huge stretch).. but I still don't think it makes much sense.

They would essentially have to flash back to this moment and show that Han stabbed himself, which would be really silly. Or they would have Ren admit this to the audience which would also be silly.

Han looked pretty surprised to me, not that he couldn't turn his son, but that Ren outright murdered him in their embrace. I think he pretty much knew it wasn't going to happen (turning his son), but wanted to believe he could still come home. Either way, I DON'T think he was expected to be impaled by his son at point blank. Maybe be captured and eventually killed/executed by the FIRST ORDER, but not first hand by Ben, in that instance.
 
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