That's arguable. Frisk is incredibly ambiguous in general (by design) and it's never addressed. Or are you being facetious?
Stardew Valley: Token minority character
- Thread starter Bboy AJ
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That's arguable. Frisk is incredibly ambiguous in general (by design) and it's never addressed. Or are you being facetious?
Scientist Supreme!
Banned
The difference is that does characters would be turn into minorities for want of seeing representation instead of keeping the status quo of the majority (white people). I would question the motives of one that does the latter.
EdibleKnife
Member
The human is of ambiguous gender which is more thought put into diversity and representation than I can say for a lot of other mainstream games.
The hell? He argued talking real world demographics was pointless, then went on to point out another real world demographic. Sure you can draw from another setting to get different demographic. Him pointing that out is no different than people pointing out that this game could be set in a midwest farm town.
It's not defending a particular viewpoint of the game, it's exploring the hypothetical of what could have been intended when the game was modeled. Calling me disingenuous and setting up a strawman is absurd. I make no claim that this game is literally set in the midwest.
You have in actuality set up a strawman by misrepresenting my comment. Arguing against conclusions which I haven't drawn.
Then furthermore posing this question to me, as to whether I would be taken out of an experience if I saw a black character. I absolutely wouldn't. That is not the only takeaway from this thread, and it certainly isn't the only thing to ask coming off my comment. Your comment comes across as a grasping attempt to set up a strawman and land a hammer blow.
UncleSporky
Member
I would only have a problem with it if they modified anything that laid bare negative intentions, more than simply recoloring some sprites. For example if they changed some dialogue to be like "boy I'm glad there aren't any black people around here!" (And similarly I'd take as much issue if an all-black mod changed dialogue to say "boy I'm glad there aren't any white people around here.")
RomanticHeroX
Member
People comparing the game's community to an unspecified norm for small, rural areas are either disingenuous or put very little thought into their argument. I grew up in a rural area and nowhere did we have a mine full of monsters and valuable ores. Saying a game should have a very stereotypically white cast because it has to stick to one idea of realism in this one specific area is absurd.
In any case, lots of great responses for people willing to genuinely engage with the topic! I really thought Demetrius initially stood out as token-ish too, but he's really grown into one of the most likable characters. The game already does such a great job of building a believable, enjoyable, lovable community that more minority representation would only make it better.
It's also worth mentioning the game presents great depictions of lots of things that are underrepresented in games! Having an interracial couple, dealing with poverty and wealth gap and the conflict between small community and globalization. All of these things really stand out to me as exceptional in this game, and it's perfectly fine to have critical dialogue about what could make it even better while also highlighting all the things it's already doing well!
In any case, lots of great responses for people willing to genuinely engage with the topic! I really thought Demetrius initially stood out as token-ish too, but he's really grown into one of the most likable characters. The game already does such a great job of building a believable, enjoyable, lovable community that more minority representation would only make it better.
It's also worth mentioning the game presents great depictions of lots of things that are underrepresented in games! Having an interracial couple, dealing with poverty and wealth gap and the conflict between small community and globalization. All of these things really stand out to me as exceptional in this game, and it's perfectly fine to have critical dialogue about what could make it even better while also highlighting all the things it's already doing well!
I apologize for misrepresenting your statement. I genuinely believe it's silly to even talk about real world demographics in a game that is 100% fictional, however. On both sides, it's a silly and pointless thing to bring up. You can find an example of every extreme fairly easily, and I don't think it's in good faith to try and assume a creator's intent--especially when said intent is typically, "Man I dunno. I didn't even think about it."
As for the takeaway--that's literally what it is. That's what it always is. Why would it bother people to see a black person where they don't think one would exist? Why should it matter at all to people that aren't effected by the lack of diversity in any given game?
My wife grew up in a country town of 80 people and didn't see a single minority until she went to college.
Don't have a problem with more minorities, but the game is pretty accurate to my anecdotes of country life. Of course, like the poster above said, monsters and sprinklers with no required water, etc, I know. Like I said, it wasn't jarring to me seeing no minorities in it like some other games without minorities, but I have no problem diversifying it up.
Don't have a problem with more minorities, but the game is pretty accurate to my anecdotes of country life. Of course, like the poster above said, monsters and sprinklers with no required water, etc, I know. Like I said, it wasn't jarring to me seeing no minorities in it like some other games without minorities, but I have no problem diversifying it up.
It would be interesting if there was a game that randomized NPC races and appearances when not a factor to their character. Gender as well in non-voiced cases. Lots of games now come with powerful character creators, often times the same ones the developers use themselves to generate NPCs. Would be pretty cool to play a major AAA title that uses specific parameters for NPCs, but lets the die roll on most of the stuff. Especially if it was not advertised as such and people online started discussing their experiences and sharing screens and videos and people were confused as fuck that NPC X, Y, Z looked nothing like that in their game.
A game like Stardew Valley may be a bit harder with its customized pixel portraits, requiring manual alterations, but seeing as they aren't animated it would only be single fixed portraits, so it's not like there are tons of variables that need to be changed. Though the game was made by just one person so that could be a considerable amount of extra work for them.
A game like Stardew Valley may be a bit harder with its customized pixel portraits, requiring manual alterations, but seeing as they aren't animated it would only be single fixed portraits, so it's not like there are tons of variables that need to be changed. Though the game was made by just one person so that could be a considerable amount of extra work for them.
EdibleKnife
Member
Edit: Saw your edit so forget it
AcademicSaucer
Member
What do you care other people do to the game they bought tho, its a mod , its not mandatory.
Scientist Supreme!
Banned
Sure.
I just don't see where to the desire or need to do that comes from besides negative/curious reasons since most of society already caters to that group.
I don't.
Only question why they do.
I edited my post to reflect this argument.
EdibleKnife
Member
Edited mine too
Well, that's still a bit fewer than I was imagining if we're basing it around a cast of 40, but yes: I think it's fair to say that there is a point where I would say that there is sufficient diversity for a given game, and I think it's also fair to say that there are people who'd feel strongly that what I regard as sufficient in that respect is still too few because it left out representatives of X race/gender/sexuality.
As it happens, I went to a wedding this weekend; it happened to be a pretty huge wedding, since the bride and groom were involved in a number of societies and had lots of friends from across the board. As a member of the group probably best broadly labelled as "People who knew the groom from university", we were a very small group (3 out of 200 or so?); I gather there was one other group of friends who was omitted almost completely. Which was unfortunate - but I recognised that there was so much diversity from a range of groups of the couple's friends that they were clearly trying to be as inclusive as possible, even though it probably feels very awkward to be someone who wasn't invited to it.
So... yeah: I recognise that being left out of a game that's genuinely trying to be diverse isn't great, but a designer who genuinely feels they've put in an appropriate level of effort shouldn't beat themselves up after being criticised by a member of such a group. Ultimately, you can't be perfect - which doesn't negate valid criticism (I'm not saying "So therefore you shouldn't bother trying at all!"), but it's something you can fall back on after making a reasonable effort.
Rust does that actually. Randomizes appearance, race, penis size,and gender in the future.
Well yeah, but that's an online multiplayer game. I'm talking about an actual single player game with properly written NPCs and a real storyline and interactions between them.
Though Rust did provide a preview of how people might react to such a thing with people losing their ever living shit when they first introduced the random character models.
Icyflamez96
Member
While I'd like to see more diversity in games, I don't like the idea that everyone should have to represent multiple races/ethnicities for the sole purpose of fitting a quota, and those who don't should be put under scrutiny. People should be allowed to execute on whatever artistic vision they have without succumbing to pressure that may go against it. If they envisioned a story in their head with the characters being a certain ethnicity, then they should go for it. Though I'd say avoiding stereotypes would be smart. Also, sort of an aside, but it's not like the representation here is unrealistic.
If someone genuinely wants to have a diverse cast for the purpose of having more representation, that's cool. Again, I just don't think we need to get all over any game that doesn't. Games will get more diverse over time in terms of representation as the industry gets more diverse.
If someone genuinely wants to have a diverse cast for the purpose of having more representation, that's cool. Again, I just don't think we need to get all over any game that doesn't. Games will get more diverse over time in terms of representation as the industry gets more diverse.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Bboy AJ, good thread. However, you're wasting time arguing with these people. Don't try to convince them. Notice how confrontational they are despite seemingly innocuous remark on diversity in games. Most of whom are white. Do not engage white people on racial issues. They are, for the most part with rare exceptions, incapable of talking about race in a serious, mature manner without resorting to arguing like complete children. Even talking about diversity in games makes them lose their shit and make up false equivalence arguments about no white people being in Wu-Tang Clan. Don't engage white people on race, you'll always regret it.
Regarding Stardew Valley, I watched the launch trailer and the first thing I noticed was the complete lack of people of color in it despite trying to advertise it as a game inspired by the real world. I didn't buy it for that reason beyond the fact it's obviously another mindless time sink game. Despite being a game based on farming and trying to promote a "realistic" close knit American town, as far as I know, there's not one single Latino, either. I could be wrong!
Given your ability to create a character, I made a guess that you would be incapable of being able to customize your avatar's skin color so the first thing I did after watching the trailer was watch a video of character customization. Guess I was wrong, but considering the fact you can't do that very thing in something like Animal Crossing without getting a "tan", it's not like it wouldn't be unprecedented.
It's really no surprise, but this game has no purchase from me.
Regarding Stardew Valley, I watched the launch trailer and the first thing I noticed was the complete lack of people of color in it despite trying to advertise it as a game inspired by the real world. I didn't buy it for that reason beyond the fact it's obviously another mindless time sink game. Despite being a game based on farming and trying to promote a "realistic" close knit American town, as far as I know, there's not one single Latino, either. I could be wrong!
Given your ability to create a character, I made a guess that you would be incapable of being able to customize your avatar's skin color so the first thing I did after watching the trailer was watch a video of character customization. Guess I was wrong, but considering the fact you can't do that very thing in something like Animal Crossing without getting a "tan", it's not like it wouldn't be unprecedented.
It's really no surprise, but this game has no purchase from me.
EdibleKnife
Member
Like I posted before, there's no such thing as a 100% artistically represented game. Whatever a creator's vision was at the start can change due to limitations of the project, time, how they want it marketed, and so on. And we are still allowed to critique games based on what they give us. Even if games were 100% untouched art, we still critique them for their sound, story, gameplay, graphics, setting and so forth. Diversity doesn't just come from diverse teams and creators but also from creators actually putting thought into it beyond just never thinking of it and making white casts the default. And in terms of the realism in regards to it's representation, from the jump there's nothing "realistic" about Stardew Valley, It's a game where you can farm and also kill slimes in a mine. Realism has no place in this discussion because the game isn't a sim of a specific town.
Shifty1897
Member
I know I'm being the devil's advocate, but I can't think of any white indie developer who makes games with people in it who doesn't get hit over the head about diversity in their games.
The alternative is going anthropomorphic, which, in retrospect, was probably a smart move by Dean Dodrill (Dust: An Elysian Tail).
The alternative is going anthropomorphic, which, in retrospect, was probably a smart move by Dean Dodrill (Dust: An Elysian Tail).
Maybe they should add in people of color if they all keep being beat over the head about it. Enough people care about it, so why isn't it changing?
¯\_(ツ
_/¯I feel like the weirdest games get singled out for stuff like this. Like, Stardew Valley was made by one person, the minority characters that are in it arn't shitty stereotypes, you can play as any race you want, and there is great gender representation by not limiting you in your choice of marriage partner. I understand that you wern't trying to call out the game as bad or anything and it may even meet the technical definition of having a token minority but you can't ignore the social connotations involved when you specifically call out "Stardew Valley has token minorities". Very very few people will see that and read it only as "there is just one person to represent a minority" and will read it as "Stardew Valley has a bad stereotypical character to represent an entire minority". It just feels like making a topic to single out this of all games is just diverting attention away from all the games that don't do as much to forward representation in video games as Stardew Valley already does.
Edit: Not to mention this was literally made by a 1-man dev team. While asking every dev to be more mindful of greater representation in their games isn't a bad thing, it's certainly asking alot of a 1-man team to properly represent a fully diverse cast all on their own. That's likely either going to entail alot of extra time the dev may not have seeking advice from others or risking falling back on stereotypes.
Edit: Not to mention this was literally made by a 1-man dev team. While asking every dev to be more mindful of greater representation in their games isn't a bad thing, it's certainly asking alot of a 1-man team to properly represent a fully diverse cast all on their own. That's likely either going to entail alot of extra time the dev may not have seeking advice from others or risking falling back on stereotypes.
There is a difference between assuming the creator's intent, and hypothesising "If this was the outskirts of Milwaukee then no harm, or if this was the outskirts of Atlanta then we may have a problem." I think it is entirely reasonable to postulate that the demographics in Stardew need not be a problem and need not be malicious. But that is only say that we don't necessitate that lense on the game. We are merely opening up a framework of lenses that can only be solved if we discover more about the intent or creative background of this game.
So in constructing a frame of mind in how we approach this game, it is entirely reasonable to discuss real world demographics. It doesn't dismiss or excuse problems that may or may not exist. Dismissing that hypothetical pursuit by pointing out that other demographics from which one could draw from exist is pointless. Which was what my first comment was saying. It does nothing to change the fact that one can reasonably set their game in the midwest, or even Poland. There is no argument to be made that diversity is necessitated because you can find other demographics that would deliver.
Why would people be bothered by a game with mostly white representation? Well the true answer is obvious when you look at games as a whole. There isn't much in the way of the flipside. It entirely makes sense to talk about demographics and representation. It's what allows this thread to exist, exploring games that don't adequately justify their representational demographics. We can't conclude that the game is justified, but others also can't conclude that no justification could exist. People that talk about agrarian demographics are simply saying this game could be justified.
rrvv
Member
CenturionKei
Banned
Your singling out an entire group of people and basing your opinion on sterotypes. Not only is that infamatory, its also racist.
About the modding...its modding. The dev is very supportive of it, and unless you would want him to regulate it (which would to a shitstorm unheard of, and goes against the very idea of modding) modders can do what they want.
Spring-Loaded
Member
This criticism/observation has been levied at Assassins Creed, Legend of Zelda, Uncharted, and so forth. The "20/30-something white dude," or "bald white space marine," protagonist is a running joke in big games and it's so prevalent everyone is aware of it, but are used to it as it's essentially the norm. Focus tests and supposed demographics of gamers are commonly given justifications for that, so when a smaller, atypical game comes out that isn't some AAA endeavor, people think of them as a good chance for something new and progressive in more ways than one.
The only thing he's wrong about is that it's not just/only white people who think that way and who refuse to understand the importance of the discussions. It's an unfortunate mentality hat transcends demographics.
I feel like people are missing a big point here. It isn't about someone's "blackness." It isn't necessarily about their cultural representation--especially in a game like Stardew Valley, where the cultural representation is very much, "Small, nondescript sleepy fantasy town."
It's about visual representation. It's about showing minorities as people, just like anyone else--where the only difference happens to be the color of their skin. By consistently saying, "They have to be culturally represented!" You're creating an 'other' situation. The black characters in Stardew Valley are not representing black culture. They're just people.
A lot of folks simply want a character they can point at and go, "Hey! That looks like me!" They want the same escapism that so many people get to experience without a second thought. They want to not feel like they have to be "represented" on a cultural level and have that character's existence be justified by the narrative of the game. There's a lot to be said about cultural representation, and it's already been stated--and I do think it's important in some games, but definitely not all. It's an undertaking that is difficult, and does require a lot more work.
As for the 1-man dev team thing, it's literally a matter of changing the sprite's skin-tone. It isn't about giving them black colloquialisms, or latino colloquialisms. It's not much in the way of work.
Thank you for breaking it out in such great detail. I can get behind discussing the hypothetical demographics to try and justify the end-result of the creator's vision. I agree with that wholeheartedly, but I think it's a waning aspect given the globalized culture we're rapidly spinning towards. Ignorance is an explanation, but it becomes grating when it turns into a constant excuse.
i don't think anyone would disagree that modders can do what they want, but nobody has to agree that all mods are good or cool. it's okay to criticize mods. modding a game to remove all non-white characters? fucked up and shitty, lmao.
Shifty1897
Member
It's the truth. Everyone wants to complain, which makes nobody want to create for fear of backlash.
OP, if you want to create a game that is as well designed as Stardew Valley and include a diverse cast of characters of all nationalities and orientations. I'll buy it. I'll convince all of my friends to buy it. Until then, my tomato plants need watering.
It's pretty simple and you don't have to justify it from 'demographics', 'writer's perspective' or anything:
- There are other people than white people in the world, especially non-white people who play video games
- Video games are so incredibly white that you can't avoid the majority if not all characters being white in almost every single game
- Perhaps consider to reflect other actually existing people than yet another sandcorn in the massive pile of Whiteness that is video games.
Also, so many fragile posters in this thread:
- There are other people than white people in the world, especially non-white people who play video games
- Video games are so incredibly white that you can't avoid the majority if not all characters being white in almost every single game
- Perhaps consider to reflect other actually existing people than yet another sandcorn in the massive pile of Whiteness that is video games.
Also, so many fragile posters in this thread:
UncleSporky
Member
Well, Cindi's also wrong to claim that the game's demographic problem is because it doesn't represent a real American small town well enough. That's been discussed extensively in the last few pages - it does represent real demographics, but the problem is that there's no reason that it should, being a fantasy game. Nor was it really intended to represent actual demographics/small town America, I believe, which Cindi seems to think it was advertised as?
CenturionKei
Banned
Yeah, I agree but on the same token, so is the reverse dumb. Why would you waste time changing an NPC skin color? From black to white. To black to white. It just seems silly to me.
Im suprised people get more worked up on this then all the creepy ass Skyrim mods...
A character should be more then there skin color. If I like a character, it has nothing to do with race.
EdibleKnife
Member
Fear of backlash only comes from the heads of the people who are so resistant to diversity. No one want's to crucify the Stardew Valley dev. No one has accused him of being a bigot. I posted before that as a black guy, 95% of what I consume in media would be considered racist if that was the way I thought. This discussion isn't for shaming the Stardew Valley dev. It's for furthering the discussion of diversity using current examples. The opportunity to diversify existed and it wasn't taken not due to malice but due to the fact that we don't actually have these discussions and when we do, too many people come out of the woodwork with the assumption that we are judging the creators rather than trying to progress the medium.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
This thread proves me right. Stereotypes? Heh. Racist? Haha, please.
Because visual representation matters to a lot of people. Simple as that.
If you like a character for being that character, and race plays absolutely no part in it--why do you care if other people want that character to be black, or latino, or asian?
Maybe in 30 years. AAA Designers with hundreds of millions in thier pockets cant make hand sculpted good looking characters to save thier lives, let alone making a random character generator to autopopulate the world.
Look at The Division, every character in that game is ugly as hell and nobody has a memorable design. Could you imagine a video game populated with 100 copies of that Fat Guy Who Talks About Karma In the Hells Kitchen Safehouse? Just blow my brains out now.
Icyflamez96
Member
I'm not saying they can't be critiqued for it necessarily, but I don't think we should necessarily be mad or offended at these people, or start questioning their character or whatnot. (Not saying OP or certain people in this thread are doing that. I haven't really read through the thread so I dunno where the discussion went).
People are naturally going to be more comfortable writing or dealing with the types of culture that they can relate with. I know people can and DO tastefully include other cultures in their work, but I'd assume it'd take more work/thought along with a bit of getting out of their comfort zone. I could imagine that someone trying to represent cultures aside from the ones they've grown up in and experienced first-hand could lead to some bad stereotyping. The people who go to the lengths of representing many different cultures in a tasteful way should be praised, but I personally can't be too upset at someone if they choose to stay within their comfort zone, even if it could feel a bit unambitious.
I think the most natural way for this problem to be remedied is just to have a more diverse gaming industry in general, so that we have a more varied bunch of people designing games and stories from their perspective to give us more genuine representation of the cultures that we don't see represented much nowadays. Of course, not trying to undermine the efforts of those who do strive to represent other cultures tastefully. We could always have more of that.
If people can't handle simple constructive criticism and instead just resort to the White status quo for fear of "backlash", they shouldn't be in any creative industry. Being an adult with a job means being able to receive feedback, improve and create better products for everyone - that is what this sort of feedback in this thread aims to do: To help developers make better products / entertainment.
I like to think I'm doing okay.
then maybe you just aren't cut out for a creative industry
being that black people/people of color/minorities are much less represented than white men, i don't find the reverse to be dumb, or a waste of time. here's a nice couple paragraphs on why visibility is/can be so important to minorities.
http://egrollman.com/2012/09/24/representation/ said:
bobbychalkers
Member
Why are some of you comparing the demographics in Stardew Valley to real places? You aren't fighting monsters in mines, and meeting farm fairies in Omaha Nebraska.
I have no reason to believe that the creator set out to make the game the way is but I do think they ran into the Scott Pilgrim vs The World issue of: "oh shit, this is super white!" Its a fairly easy problem to encounter within games.
I have no reason to believe that the creator set out to make the game the way is but I do think they ran into the Scott Pilgrim vs The World issue of: "oh shit, this is super white!" Its a fairly easy problem to encounter within games.
You're welcome. I agree that in the modern age there are some perfectly valid backdrops that can be explored that may interest wider audiences. It certainly would be a problem if someone was using a backdrop as an excuse to avoid representing certain races.
If you're saying we need more cole-trains, I'm down. This thread makes me appreciate how fun/diverse the cast is in gears. Maybe some stereotypes going on but still. I'd say most people are fine with different races being added to games, it's still up to creators though. I'd say it's probably best to say we need different races in video games in general. In the case of stardew, like the OP says, it probably wasn't intentional.
It's pretty simple and you don't have to justify it from 'demographics', 'writer's perspective' or anything:
- There are other people than white people in the world, especially non-white people who play video games
- Video games are so incredibly white that you can't avoid the majority if not all characters being white in almost every single game
- Perhaps consider to reflect other actually existing people than yet another sandcorn in the massive pile of Whiteness that is video games.
Also, so many fragile posters in this thread:
What is the point of acting all sactimonious like this? Jesus Christ. No wonder nobody wants to engage with you when you act like a prick.
-Video Games are an outgrowth of the computer industry, one that required educated people to work in. In the 70s these people were mostly white.
-Early Video Game adopters were the children of wealthy upper-middle class people (mostly white) in the 80s. So the first generation of video game enthusiasts that grew up were going to be disproportionately white since consumer electronics were a luxury.
-These disproportionately white developers made games for a disproportionately white audience.
And here we are today, the economic barriers to computing and education are coming down so its not surprising to see a hobby that mostly used to exist in the hands of the well to do (largely white) now is a hobby shared by many, many people.
You think any of us here have any control over the American economy at large, or what demographics develop an interest in what hobbies? Youre just sitting around going "Kukuku, top Kek, video games So White", and complaining that other people aren't self flagellating enough.
Inspector Jones
Member
More diversity in games is discussion that should be kept up; but I don't think every game needs to confirm or meet some diversity quota. Stardew Valley is its own game and I feel it works; Pelican Town feels like a real place you might find in the US and its cast of characters are well developed and deal with unique situations. I guess what I'm saying is that I don't think developers should follow their vision and not feel mandated to meet certain goals, even if they are noble ones.
veloxStrix
Banned
This seems like one of the strangest choices of game to have this thread centered around. There is, unlike many other games, actually a black person in the game. In a relationship. With a white person. They have a family. By any measure, Demetrius and Maru are both two of the most successful characters in the entire game. There aren't any Asians unless you count
in the game at all. Or Hispanics, even. Unless Alex's skin tone is more than just a sick tan like I always assumed it was. So the idea of them being token minorities seems pretty silly.
Mr. Qi - who is a stereotype in and of himself, along with Pam, but no one is bringing them up
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