Cosmic Smash
Member
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Steven Soderbergh Sounds Alarm On Mid-Budget Films After ‘Black Bag’ Underperforms
- Thread starter Cosmic Smash
- Start date
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
I like him but the trailers turned me off to this movie. Nobody involved has ever really been a big box office draw either.
ReBurn
Gold Member
Which is the thing Soderbergh should be focused on. That and movie ticket prices are stupid. People over 25 years old learned during Covid that it's cheaper to wait a few months and stream it at home for 5 bucks. Even when HBO was streaming new release rentals for 20 bucks it was cheaper overall than a cinema outlay.
Movies are destined to become a straight to streaming business. After 2020 not as many people care about them.
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
Yeah but they tend to use young talent and have eye catching trailers that get word of mouth. Hell just having the A24 logo gives their films word of mouth.
Black Bag has neither going for it.
Having said all that I believe A24 has said they can't really survive using their current model and need to branch out into films that become actual "hits." A lot of A24 movies don't generate a bunch of box office.
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Men_in_Boxes
Snake Oil Salesman
I played Fortnite with a lot of 10 - 16 year old kids back in the day doing rando duo queue. I'd always ask them "What's your favorite movie?" because that's what I remember talking to my friends about at that age.
It was shocking how infrequently they'd be able to answer. It was frequently "I don't really watch movies. Do you know who Mr Beast (insert some other YouTuber) is?"
Youth culture has moved on completely from that medium.
I think this type of film is 100% killed by the streaming market. I considered seeing this in the theater as a date night though, so it's not entirely dead. The inability to target the audience with previous in theater ads and older demographic shows (aka CBS crime dramas) hurts as well.
And of course, is it any good?
I feel like these types of films always thrived in the rental market.
And of course, is it any good?
I feel like these types of films always thrived in the rental market.
Hugare
Member
From what I've seen, it seems like an ok movie like The Killer was: nothing really original, but fun and well executed.
But The Killer launched on Netflix.
A24 made their name with horror movies. Horror movies are usualy low risk/high reward. Something like "Talk to me" costs a Big Mac to make and generates crazy revenue.
Now they are risking more with bigger productions. But still, they dont make uninspired spy thrillers. Their movies always have something unique to invite viewers. A small/mid budet movie needs that kind of originality in order to survive.
I like Soderbergh, but its clear that this movie should have been on a streaming service from day one.
But The Killer launched on Netflix.
A24 made their name with horror movies. Horror movies are usualy low risk/high reward. Something like "Talk to me" costs a Big Mac to make and generates crazy revenue.
Now they are risking more with bigger productions. But still, they dont make uninspired spy thrillers. Their movies always have something unique to invite viewers. A small/mid budet movie needs that kind of originality in order to survive.
I like Soderbergh, but its clear that this movie should have been on a streaming service from day one.
Fbh
Member
From the poster to the concept, the movie just sounds kinda generic and unremarkable.
There was a time going to the movies was a relatively cheap and I used to go watch movies like these on a lazy weekend afternoon or as a cheap and easy plan with some friends on a Friday night when we had nothing else going on, etc.
These days though, between the higher ticket and food prices, the fact many people are dealing with tighter budgets and many big studio getting everyone used to movies being released digitally like a month after premiering, it's no wonder movies like these aren't bringing in lots of people.
There was a time going to the movies was a relatively cheap and I used to go watch movies like these on a lazy weekend afternoon or as a cheap and easy plan with some friends on a Friday night when we had nothing else going on, etc.
These days though, between the higher ticket and food prices, the fact many people are dealing with tighter budgets and many big studio getting everyone used to movies being released digitally like a month after premiering, it's no wonder movies like these aren't bringing in lots of people.
IDKFA
I am Become Bilbo Baggins
Jesus. How much as Cinema tickets in the states?
In the UK I pay £7.99 (a little over 10 bucks) a ticket.
I don't think cinema will die. Plenty of movies make back their budget at the cinema. Some recent ones even made billions.
Heimdall_Xtreme
Hermen Hulst Fanclub's #1 Member
I thought I read Steven Spielberg
Pejo
Member
RLM just did a video addressing some of this stuff. Worth a watch.
The modern movie world has changed. It seems Hollywood was eager to aim for a modern "audience" but still refuses to update their model to something that makes sense, in terms of where movies as a product and medium exist today.
You need a reason to go to the theater. For some big action movies, or meme "event" movies like Barbenheimer/Minecraft, it happens naturally, but as much as they want to, Hollywood can't force these things to happen. With how fast movies go to streaming, and streaming at home generally being a much better place to watch slower/subtle/dialogue heavy movies, it's not really the public's fault for not wanting to go to a theater for a sub-optimal experience. At home I can pause, adjust volume, turn on subtitles, etc without negatively affecting anybody else's experience.
The answer here (in my opinion) is to reduce budgets, hire up-and-comers instead of making star draw the focal point. But how do you get people to watch a new IP movie with no big stars? Marketing, and that has to change, too. You can't depend on your Chris Pratts and Zendayas to sell movies anymore, so they need to think outside of the box and start finding new ways to promote their product.
Anyways, I think quality art movies will always exist, but it's not our fault that the market has changed but Hollywood hasn't. Look at the pains that the music industry went through and continues to go through because they similarly didn't have any foresight about what the landscape should look like. Just how they panicked about mp3s and music streaming and made a race to the bottom with stuff like Apple Music/Spotify for short term profits, the movie industry did basically the same thing. They devalued their movies, accelerated bringing them to streaming when they saw the profits dwindling, etc.
It'd be interesting to see if the bigger studios tried listening to the fans/movie-goers instead of trying to make every movie for every demographic. Like a male led Star Wars not focused on the Skywalker legacy without K.K. at the helm. I think there's plenty of room out there for big money and big box office revenue, but not with their current ideals and plans.
As far as these mid budget movies though, outside of a few anomalies, I'm pretty sure they're done making big box office.
The modern movie world has changed. It seems Hollywood was eager to aim for a modern "audience" but still refuses to update their model to something that makes sense, in terms of where movies as a product and medium exist today.
You need a reason to go to the theater. For some big action movies, or meme "event" movies like Barbenheimer/Minecraft, it happens naturally, but as much as they want to, Hollywood can't force these things to happen. With how fast movies go to streaming, and streaming at home generally being a much better place to watch slower/subtle/dialogue heavy movies, it's not really the public's fault for not wanting to go to a theater for a sub-optimal experience. At home I can pause, adjust volume, turn on subtitles, etc without negatively affecting anybody else's experience.
The answer here (in my opinion) is to reduce budgets, hire up-and-comers instead of making star draw the focal point. But how do you get people to watch a new IP movie with no big stars? Marketing, and that has to change, too. You can't depend on your Chris Pratts and Zendayas to sell movies anymore, so they need to think outside of the box and start finding new ways to promote their product.
Anyways, I think quality art movies will always exist, but it's not our fault that the market has changed but Hollywood hasn't. Look at the pains that the music industry went through and continues to go through because they similarly didn't have any foresight about what the landscape should look like. Just how they panicked about mp3s and music streaming and made a race to the bottom with stuff like Apple Music/Spotify for short term profits, the movie industry did basically the same thing. They devalued their movies, accelerated bringing them to streaming when they saw the profits dwindling, etc.
It'd be interesting to see if the bigger studios tried listening to the fans/movie-goers instead of trying to make every movie for every demographic. Like a male led Star Wars not focused on the Skywalker legacy without K.K. at the helm. I think there's plenty of room out there for big money and big box office revenue, but not with their current ideals and plans.
As far as these mid budget movies though, outside of a few anomalies, I'm pretty sure they're done making big box office.
Fbh
Member
It's not just that though IMO.
During the pandemic they started dumping everything online and even afterwards many studios drastically shortened the time between the theater release and the digital release, so people got more used to watching movies at home and they've encouraged the "just wait for the home ralease" mentaility
Prices also went up and with the current economy many people are already struggling and cutting back on unnecessary expenses.
I think even the fact it's relatively cheap to get a decent setup at home these days is a factor. Growing up the family TV was a 24-5" CRT TV, so the theater was a big upgrade.
These days even a $500 tv with cheap-ish audio setup will give you a decent audiovisual experience at home (Not to mention if you have a higher end TV and audio setup)
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I think there is a place for these films in theaters, but its the smaller dinner theaters that appeal to older viewers. Stuff like Alamo Draft House. The big glitzy mega-screen place cant afford to screen low viewer films like this but I'm very happy with my Alamo with smaller screens but no noisy kids, good beer/food, and a chill vibe.
El Muerto
Member
His movies arent for everybody but complaining about people not seeing mid budget movies is a lie. The movie Sinners that just came out had a budget of $90 million, $40 million more than Black Bag, and it's doing pretty good for an original movie. It was #1 over easter weekend too. Another low budget movie that people watched was MaXXXine. $1 million budget, grossed $25 million. Monkey Man made $35million w/ $10million budget, Late Night With The Devil made $11 million w/ $150k budget. Make something good and original and people will see it.
Donald mac Ronald
Member
He's kinda right tbh.
In the 90s you had lots of low budget, amazing films that had big stars in.
That happily made 30/50 million on a tiny budget.
You don't see thrillers and court room dramas any more. 80s/90s/ early 00s had plenty.
Take a film like a few good men.
If that released today. Nobody would watch that at the cinema.
In the 90s you had lots of low budget, amazing films that had big stars in.
That happily made 30/50 million on a tiny budget.
You don't see thrillers and court room dramas any more. 80s/90s/ early 00s had plenty.
Take a film like a few good men.
If that released today. Nobody would watch that at the cinema.
near
Member
I think Soderbergh is mostly being emotional here, and honestly, I get it. I'd probably feel the same way if the majority of my films struggled at the box office. Has he completely erased Solaris from his memory? Sure, mid-budget films had legs in the '90s and early 2000s, but saying Erin Brockovich wouldn't get made today is kind of nonsense. Distributors like Focus Features (the same one he just worked with), A24, and Searchlight Pictures routinely back mid-budget, adult-skewing films. And plenty have been box office successes - Poor Things, Everything Everywhere All at Once, Conclave, etc. His argument feels reductive to me.
bitbydeath
Member
Movies out-priced themselves on taking chances with unknowns.
Griffon
Member
I have a feeling that the movie industry was almost entirely carried by boomers (much like TV).
Younger generations also know movies, sure, but they split their attention between that and video games, youtube/streamers and social media. Movie have a much smaller place in their lives than it had for their parents.
Younger generations also know movies, sure, but they split their attention between that and video games, youtube/streamers and social media. Movie have a much smaller place in their lives than it had for their parents.
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Kenpachii
Member
Not surprising really, movies where big when i grew up. Now its just filler at best. Also doesn't help that movies got butchered by movements in the last decade+ to the point nobody cares about them anymore.
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Juror #2? Anatomy of a Fall? Presumed Innocent? The Staircase?
Lunarorbit
Member
Covid destroyed the last of the casual movie going experience for alot of people.
Ownage
Member
The length was perfect. It told a story and completed it successfully. Not all stories need to be as brutally long as The Brutalist, Gettysburg or Endgame.
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calistan
Member
Not that it would have affected the box office take, but the ending felt rushed to me:
As soon as Fassbender makes the suspected mole guy agitated enough to pick up the unloaded gun, he shoots him in the face. No chance for a twist, or even an explanation. Just summary execution.
Maybe I need to see it again.
Trogdor1123
Member
I can't recall this film at all. The only two in recent memory I can think of is Snow White which I have zero interest in and thunderbolts which I really want to see.
I just have no desire to go to most movies now. I'd rather watch at home or spend the time taking my wife and kids to dinner.
I just have no desire to go to most movies now. I'd rather watch at home or spend the time taking my wife and kids to dinner.
March Climber
Member
And that's part of the problem. Aside from the issues people have listed above regarding price and streaming which are both true, movies have also essentially become popularity contests where only the biggest brands or the biggest hyped projects will get people to show up or even pay attention to them.
There are a ton of classic movies that would have probably bombed if they had released today, like Pulp Fiction, or Forest Gump, or Trading Places, or Pursuit of Happyness, etc.
Movies like those would be 'wait for streaming' types today, and even those movies would be filled with random A-list cameos in an attempt to get people to pay attention.
BigBeauford
Member
I think it has less to do with the quality of the mid budget movie, and much more to do with the mind-numbingly high price of the experience. It was $70 for me to take my family of four to see Minecraft (granted on their biggest screen) but that just isn't something most individuals can do as often as they used to.
longrainwater
Neo Member
And then if you go out to eat as well you're looking at maybe 200
With streaming and TVs being such high quality, it's harder to justify
LordOfChaos
Member
Was the problem really mid budget or mid movie
DKehoe
Member
It's a good movie.
Mr Reasonable
Completely Unreasonable
It's pretty interesting how cinema/movie viewing discussion brings up the same things every time - too expensive, I can pause when I'm at home, audiences don't know how to behave, films go to streaming too quickly so people don't feel compelled to go to the cinema.
I think, also from a position of ignorance as a punter, that cinema problems are pretty much all the things people complain about and more. But not necessarily all of them for everyone.
I don't think my local cinema could sell tickets cheaper - I booked to see Sinners for £10. We saw a few Oscar nominated films there for £5 a ticket. The cost of tickets isn't the problem for me. I kinda wonder how much people think the ticket should be and have the business be able to make money - other activities are always more expensive as far as I can tell (I know other cinemas are much more expensive, but the three cinemas within a 15 minute drive for me are all £10 or less a seat). For as long as I can remember, the cost of tickets and cinema snacks have been a standard complaint. A coke costs more than a supermarket? What, like it does in a bar, restaurant, cafe, McDonald's, bowling alley?! People always complain about the cost, but only when it comes to buying at cinemas.
I digress.
The thing I go to the cinema for is the experience. I love that you have to pay attention. You can't pause. You can't stop the film to go make a coffee. You have to watch the film uninterrupted. This is great.
There was also an exclusivity to films. It seemed like films played all summer when I was a kid and you'd really want to go see what people were talking about.
Home screen sizes are obviously bigger now and you may have a decent size screen and sound system, but for most people a well looked after cinema will still be the best way to see and hear a film, imo.
That cinemas don't lean into those things more baffles me - keep films off streaming (and put real effort into making sure that it doesn't leak to the internet) make sure that every time you go to a film it's a great experience - kick out people who don't know how to behave and make sure the projector and sound are up to scratch. Oh, and make sure that even when Avengers: The New Batch launches that the cinema is showing other films too.
Do those things and I'd like to think more people would go more often. Even if the ice cream is cheaper at the supermarket. The cinema is the best way to lose yourself in a film, imo, it's a shame that all the things that are killing cinemas are now apparently starting to kill films too.
I think, also from a position of ignorance as a punter, that cinema problems are pretty much all the things people complain about and more. But not necessarily all of them for everyone.
I don't think my local cinema could sell tickets cheaper - I booked to see Sinners for £10. We saw a few Oscar nominated films there for £5 a ticket. The cost of tickets isn't the problem for me. I kinda wonder how much people think the ticket should be and have the business be able to make money - other activities are always more expensive as far as I can tell (I know other cinemas are much more expensive, but the three cinemas within a 15 minute drive for me are all £10 or less a seat). For as long as I can remember, the cost of tickets and cinema snacks have been a standard complaint. A coke costs more than a supermarket? What, like it does in a bar, restaurant, cafe, McDonald's, bowling alley?! People always complain about the cost, but only when it comes to buying at cinemas.
I digress.
The thing I go to the cinema for is the experience. I love that you have to pay attention. You can't pause. You can't stop the film to go make a coffee. You have to watch the film uninterrupted. This is great.
There was also an exclusivity to films. It seemed like films played all summer when I was a kid and you'd really want to go see what people were talking about.
Home screen sizes are obviously bigger now and you may have a decent size screen and sound system, but for most people a well looked after cinema will still be the best way to see and hear a film, imo.
That cinemas don't lean into those things more baffles me - keep films off streaming (and put real effort into making sure that it doesn't leak to the internet) make sure that every time you go to a film it's a great experience - kick out people who don't know how to behave and make sure the projector and sound are up to scratch. Oh, and make sure that even when Avengers: The New Batch launches that the cinema is showing other films too.
Do those things and I'd like to think more people would go more often. Even if the ice cream is cheaper at the supermarket. The cinema is the best way to lose yourself in a film, imo, it's a shame that all the things that are killing cinemas are now apparently starting to kill films too.
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Cosmic Smash
Member
Unknown Soldier
Member
I think the issue here is that apparently nobody promoted this man's movie because I had never even heard of it until I saw this thread on GAF
DKehoe
Member
ResilientBanana
Member
Didn't know the movie existed till it made it here to NeoGAF. Still won't see it because now he's whining about people not seeing it. It makes me want to see it less.