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[JoeInky]

Tiers without knowing anything about allowed stages and rules in terms of stock count, time limit, whether custom moves are legal or not are completely pointless.


And besides, I wouldn't trust an NoA rep to know just how good characters are when they're not actually competing with a variety of people and with real money on the line. They'd miss things that pro players would exploit the fuck out of to get an advantage.

 

[Tripon]

Based of a demo? Too early for me. And no mario is weird cause there have been reports of him being good

IIRC, the tier list is based on supposed monthly builds NOA players are allowed to play. Again, this is assuming the guy who posted this info wasn't a troll.

 

[autobzooty]

Yeah, biggest reason to keep the Ridley dream alive is that they have been teasing and leading us on for a while now. If that doesn't end up with SOME kind of payoff, I'm not sure what they were thinking.

However, it could be a Wii U game pad thing. I'd actually kinda like that more than having him as a traditional character.

 

[Ahnez]

Lemme play devil's advocate. How about a FFA with 4 ICs, High Pokeballs and Assist Trophies, on a stage containing a boss with 3D turned on.


I have nothing else to say, I was just stating a bunch of stuff.

I have done something similar in brawl..

Samus with FS, Zelda, PKMN Trainer (charizard), and Olimar with no pikmin

Everyone but samus with a pokeball in hand (3 limit )

Used the FS to force ZZS, everyone used the pokeballs, both Zelda and Trainer transformed and Olimar plucked all 6 pikmin..

Just caused the transformations to take longer.

I didnt test further, we did it just to see if the game crash or something

 

[Blizzard]

Sakurai must know by now that Ridley has been the fan favourite for almost 3 games in a row, and I think he'd be absolutely stupid to think that that is what people have wanted out of Ridley for all these years.

Firstly, exactly which "people" are you referring to? I don't want Ridley. I don't even want boss mode Ridley. Presumably you are referring to the people who like Ridley, who might show up in character polls, but that's not everyone.

Secondly, you seem to be assuming that Sakurai wants to do what some group of "people" want, especially what they have wanted for "all these years". Do you think Sakurai added tripping, or final destination mode yet not battlefield platform mode, because he thought that was exactly what "people" wanted?

I think Sakurai does what Sakurai wants, sometimes because of what certain audience segments may like, sometimes not. I think Sakurai does not follow exact rules consistently. In that way, he may be somewhat like his cat.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Sakurai pretty much lives on surprises. You should be well aware of this by now.

Ice Climbers represent the entire library of small arcadey early NES games and offer a unique experience experience that not many, if any, other team ups could. They fill the roster slot where balloon fighter, donkey kong jr, clu clu, lolo, etc can't fill. It also helps they are first party Nintendo characters. Isaac is from Camelot, which obviously makes his pull in Nintendo a lot less.

Lucina is a clone bonus character from an important Nintendo series, I don't quite see your point here. Golden Suns only hope for a character is via an extremely popular main character and it doesn't even have a main character consistent between games.

Shadow is revealed, likely because Sonic is a starter or just because they want to. Barbara the Bat hasn't been shown either, does she have a chance to be playable using this train of thought?

Pit is a really awful example considering Brawl was basically like a beta test for Pit's design for Uprising. Even if he wasn't relevant then, Sakurai knew he would be in a few years. Also Pit had been highly requested as a character since 64. Isaac just doesn't have that sort of pull.

 

[Beelzebufo]

Them being assist trophies previously means that they had a chance as far as Sakurai was concerned.

I was always under the impression that Assist trophies meant the opposite. They're basically "we're not even going to bother trying to make them playable" characters, like the Pokemon that show up in Pokeballs. That's why we see characters like Metroid, Hammer Bros, Waluigi (who no matter how hard he tries, will never make it), and Isaac/Ray. Characters like Mewtwo were seemingly almost included in Brawl, but were cut due to time restraints. I don't think Sakurai ever aimed to put in Shadow, Knuckle Joe, or Little Mac, even if he had all the time in the world.

Like obviously things can change between games (Punch-Out!! came out, Sakurai getting the idea for Pokemon Trainer let Charizard move up from Pokeball), but I don't really know what would make Sakurai change his mind on those two characters. Maybe Isaac because his series got a new game that not many people know about and he was barely in? Maybe Ray because... uh... well maybe no Ray.

 

[Shadow Hog]

If you'll forgive the RGBGAF in me for a minute: sooooo muuuuuch dooooot craaaaaawl

 

[PadWarrior]

IIRC, the tier list is based on supposed monthly builds NOA players are allowed to play. Again, this is assuming the guy who posted this info wasn't a troll.

Ah I see

 

[OricWindstar]

Bah, I wish there was an 'added on' date so I know who I've already added without having to comb through the list. Stupid 3DS friend system!

I think there actually is in the google doc. I'll check it out after work. And, fortunately, the Wii U version is going to be so much easier to deal with.

 

[Mr.Miyamoto]

Other M Ridley is going to be playable, I'd take any bet against it.

When the 3DS version is released and there's no playable Ridley I'll be like:

 

[Crocodile]

Even if that tier list is from an NoA employee and not BS, I don't see anything objectionable about it. Developers and testers always have opinions on the tier list of their own game. How the meta shakes up when MILLIONS of people around the world get their hand on the game as opposed to the several DOZEN people who are working on the game right now will always be different and interesting to see.

 

[Kriken]

Well, we're moving on from I heard it from a friend to reposting info from a supposed Nintendo retail rep. This post is no way an admission of anything. Take it for what you will.

"We managed to make a tier list from the information from people who made the "Combos in Smash 4" video based purely on characters that are revealed right now only."

 

[Troubled Bat]

When the 3DS version is released and there's no playable Ridley I'll be like:

 

[georly]

See, I would normally agree with you, except the mere fact that Issac and Ray Mk II actually became assist trophies in the first place. Them being assist trophies previously means that they had a chance as far as Sakurai was concerned. As such, I would expect that they were all definitely considered when deciding which characters to have playable.

Does it mean they're guaranteed to make it in? No, not really.

Does it mean that they have an inherent edge over most other characters? Hell yeah it does.

There's also the notion that some characters are a 'good fit' for an assist trophy and might stay there permanently, like Lynn. Maybe it's because they're not really relevant to a large amount of people or maybe it's because they are characters that aren't really able to be fleshed out into a fully playable fighter. Not saying isaac or ray deserve to permanently be assist trophies, because they have enough versatility to be full playable characters, but it's also possible sakurai and team think they're a 'better fit' as an assist trophy than as playable.

I'm all for isaac being playable, I think he'd have a cool moveset, using the djinn's powers and all. Same w/ ray having tons of cool custom robo abilities. But where they fit in my mind (this is just me personally, not you, or sakurai!), they're not really 'visible' enough to be smash bros fighters, so I'm just not getting my hopes up. I think an addition has to make sense. It has to be able to get more "Wow, that's so cool that they added so and so" responses than "who on earth is that?" responses from the public at large. And if they do get the 'who on earth is that?" response, they need to be quirky enough that it's quickly forgiven. Isaac and Ray just look like generic video game characters in the grand scheme of things.

One again, not trying to upset any isaac or ray fans, I'm just saying how I see it. If I were making smash bros, I'd keep them at assist trophy level. Fortunately for you guys, I'm not!

 

[Kyzon]

I have done something similar in brawl..

Samus with FS, Zelda, PKMN Trainer (charizard), and Olimar with no pikmin

Everyone but samus with a pokeball in hand (3 limit )

Used the FS to force ZZS, everyone used the pokeballs, both Zelda and Trainer transformed and Olimar plucked all 6 pikmin..

Just caused the transformations to take longer.

I didnt test further, we did it just to see if the game crash or something

I'll have to see what I did, but i do remember making the framerate in Brawl chug before.... Or it may have been Melee. I'm not sure off the top of my head.

 

[Berordn]

I'll have to see what I did, but i do remember making the framerate in Brawl chug before.... Or it may have been Melee. I'm not sure off the top of my head.

The engine's never been totally perfect, even though it's generally pretty solid. If I recall right four Ice Climbers in Melee was actually one of the few things to cause noticeable lag.

 

[JoeInky]

Firstly, exactly which "people" are you referring to? I don't want Ridley. I don't even want boss mode Ridley. Presumably you are referring to the people who like Ridley, who might show up in character polls, but that's not everyone.

Secondly, you seem to be assuming that Sakurai wants to do what some group of "people" want, especially what they have wanted for "all these years". Do you think Sakurai added tripping, or final destination mode yet not battlefield platform mode, because he thought that was exactly what "people" wanted?

The vocal smash fanbase, metroid fans, etc. he's consistently been one of the most requested characters since Melee.
I honestly don't care if a few people don't want Ridley (whether it be for genuine reasons or contrarian reasons), I don't want Lucina or Palutena and that means fuck all, he's the primary antagonist of the Metroid franchise and popular with smash fans, that's enough for me.

He does do what he wants, but if he wanted Ridley to not be an actual playable character, he would have deconfirmed him by just outright stating he's a boss by now, and if he didn't want to reveal information about a playable boss mode yet he just wouldn't have said anything about that mode, the important thing would be that a character that could be playable would be deconfirmed immediately, rather than do the exact opposite of how he's stated he should handle (and how he has handled so far) character deconfirmations.

 

[georly]

I think there actually is in the google doc. I'll check it out after work. And, fortunately, the Wii U version is going to be so much easier to deal with.

It's sorted alphabetically for me, I can't see the order in which people were added to the list.

 

[Kyzon]

The engine's never been totally perfect, even though it's generally pretty solid. If I recall right four Ice Climbers in Melee was actually one of the few things to cause noticeable lag.

I know the black hole glitch did that, in Melee.

Great times!

 

[OricWindstar]

It's sorted alphabetically for me, I can't see the order in which people were added to the list.

Oh I know, I mean I think I can reveal a column that has the date info was added.

 

[georly]

Oh I know, I mean I think I can reveal a column that has the date info was added.

Oh, beautiful!.

 

[TreIII]

I know the black hole glitch did that, in Melee.

Great times!

Yaaaaaaaaaaaas.

I remember the first time my college pals and I pulled that off in front of everybody in our game room. So much fun.

 

[Anth0ny]

The engine's never been totally perfect, even though it's generally pretty solid. If I recall right four Ice Climbers in Melee was actually one of the few things to cause noticeable lag.

Fountain of Dreams is banned in teams because it lags with 4 players.

 

[SenorArdilla]

Way too early for tiers. And honestly, it sounds like the person's just repeating stuff he's heard. ZSS is top tier because Sakurai made some off-comment about how ZSS has the advantage against Kirby. Kirby and Pit are top tier because ZeRo said they were strong during his AMA. And Bowser is top tier because he won the Smash 3DS tournament.

 

[liquidekkah]

There's also the notion that some characters are a 'good fit' for an assist trophy and might stay there permanently, like Lynn. Maybe it's because they're not really relevant to a large amount of people or maybe it's because they are characters that aren't really able to be fleshed out into a fully playable fighter. Not saying isaac or ray deserve to permanently be assist trophies, because they have enough versatility to be full playable characters, but it's also possible sakurai and team think they're a 'better fit' as an assist trophy than as playable.

I'm all for isaac being playable, I think he'd have a cool moveset, using the djinn's powers and all. Same w/ ray having tons of cool custom robo abilities. But where they fit in my mind (this is just me personally, not you, or sakurai!), they're not really 'visible' enough to be smash bros fighters, so I'm just not getting my hopes up. I think an addition has to make sense. It has to be able to get more "Wow, that's so cool that they added so and so" responses than "who on earth is that?" responses from the public at large. And if they do get the 'who on earth is that?" response, they need to be quirky enough that it's quickly forgiven. Isaac and Ray just look like generic video game characters in the grand scheme of things.

One again, not trying to upset any isaac or ray fans, I'm just saying how I see it. If I were making smash bros, I'd keep them at assist trophy level. Fortunately for you guys, I'm not!

That's not necessarily true. Marth and Roy were pretty "Who on earth is that?" for their inclusion in Melee, and neither of them are quirky. They're pretty standard video game swordsman.

 

[Kjellson]

Anyone here think we'll get a veteran this week?

I think Wario's time has come.

Or Ice Climbers. Both are long overdue.

 

[TomShoe]

Anyone here think we'll get a veteran this week?

I think Wario's time has come.

Or Ice Climbers. Both are long overdue.

Keep hope alive.

 

[JoeInky]

Anyone here think we'll get a veteran this week?

I think Wario's time has come.

Or Ice Climbers. Both are long overdue.

Falco or G&W

 

[PadWarrior]

Anyone here think we'll get a veteran this week?

I think Wario's time has come.

Or Ice Climbers. Both are long overdue.

I think in 2 weeks we will.

 

[georly]

That's not necessarily true. Marth and Roy were pretty "Who on earth is that?" for their inclusion in Melee, and neither of them are quirky. They're pretty standard video game swordsman.

They were quirky for melee because no-one on the roster looked like that. They were also from a 'japan only' franchise.

Their inclusion, however, wasn't for the 'Who on earth is that" reason AT ALL. That's just the western point of view. They were included because fire emblem is pretty huge in japan. Fire emblem had 5 games, going on 6. And that was in 2001.

 

[Troubled Bat]

Keep hope alive.

You aren't qq moe.

 

[NeonZ]

Just from a tecnical standpoint, a FFA with 4 of the same character isn't one of the least taxing 4p FFA possible? Even with the semi-AIs (nanas).

Spoiler

The GC can handle ICs, theres no way the 3DS can't

I think an Ice Climbers 4p match with items could cause some performance problems in some Melee stages.

Also, regarding that previous comparison of polygon count - although one pair of Ice Climbers by themselves might not seen much above a standalone character, when you add all four of them, you basically end up with the equivalent of five standard characters on the field.

 

[Lunar15]

The undeniable fact about characters like Lynn, Issac, and Andy is that Nintendo clearly loathes the GBA and refuses to even acknowledge its existence.

I mean, look at Roy. They ditched his ass as soon as they got a chance. I'm right because evidence supports my claims.

 

[Tripon]

Accept no substitutes.

 

[darkmagus]

Sadly until the very bitter end, i am going to belive in playable Isaac.

 

[PadWarrior]

Accept no substitutes.

Lol!!

 

[liquidekkah]

They were quirky for melee because no-one on the roster looked like that. They were also from a 'japan only' franchise.

Their inclusion, however, wasn't for the 'Who on earth is that" reason AT ALL. That's just the western point of view. They were included because fire emblem is pretty huge in japan. They do not apply.

Eh, that's arguable.

Also, I wasn't saying that they were included to fill some sort of "Who is that?" requirement, just that was the reaction millions of people had to them.

And FE might have been "pretty huge" in Japan, Awakening was still the first FE to jump 1 million, so it's not exactly far-fetched to put them up against a series that has achieved that twice.

 

[BassForever]

I really never understood this "people wouldn't know who isaac/ray mk2/etc" argument is

Do you think your average person knew who Ness or Captain Falcon were back when Smash 64 first came out?

Do you think your average person knew who Mr G&W or Ice Climbers were when Melee came out? And for us gamers who marth and roy were?

Do you think your average person knew who Pit or Rob were when Brawl came out?

Again not saying either will be playable in this game, but lets not act like just because a character is obscure or not mass market they are suddenly not eligible for Smash.

Lets be honest here, if we had not see the boxing stage and not had the gematsu leak, we'd probably be talking about Little Mac the same way we talk about Isaac or ray.

I think both WFT and Little Mac show Sakurai can literally pull characters from anywhere at anytime and make them Smash viable regardless of what we think.

 

[IntelliHeath]

Accept no substitutes.

I remember how people were so impressed with the textures on Sub. Doll.

 

[Kyzon]

Yaaaaaaaaaaaas.

I remember the first time my college pals and I pulled that off in front of everybody in our game room. So much fun.

Melee items are so good. I actually like them a lot. 64's as well.

 

[oreomunsta]

I remember how people were so impressed with the textures on Sub. Doll.

This person still is! Looks really good ^-^

 

[Zubz]

Paper Mario was unfortunately cut.

Unfortunate? What happened? Can they tape him back together?

 

[georly]

I really never understood this "people wouldn't know who isaac/ray mk2/etc" argument is

Do you think your average person knew who Ness or Captain Falcon were back when Smash 64 first came out?

Smash 64 is a bit different. Smash 64 wasn't as big back then. Also Ness and Captain falcon were still mostly relevant. Mother 3 Was in development and F Zero had a recent entry.

Do you think your average person knew who Mr G&W or Ice Climbers were when Melee came out? And for us gamers who marth and roy were?

G&W fits the 'weird wtf' category. In some regards, so do ice climbers. Ice climbers also fits the 'launch NES'/Retro category for quirkiness.

Do you think your average person knew who Pit or Rob were when Brawl came out?

Same as the above. Pit represented the classic NES/retro category, so a lot of people over the age of 20 probably remembered him. Rob fits both categories.

Again not saying either will be playable in this game, but lets not act like just because a character is obscure or not mass market they are suddenly not eligible for Smash.

Lets be honest here, if we had not see the boxing stage and not had the gematsu leak, we'd probably be talking about Little Mac the same way we talk about Isaac or ray.

Little mac fits into the retro NES category AND he had a game released since the last smash bros. He's also been the star of all 4 punch-out games.

I think 'retro NES' pulls more weight than 'Gamecube/GBA era' does. We honestly haven't seen a lot of love from that era, and it's one of nintendo's weakest, as far as sales go.

To *ME*, as someone who doesn't really have any nostalgic feelings for the GBA/Gamecube era games, I don't think a lot of those characters have much pull or weight. I don't think they're very attention-worthy. That's just me, though.

That said, sakurai can do what he wants. I still think they're a better 'fit' as an assist trophy, though.

 

[SmithnCo]

Went through and added everyone on the google doc.

 

[liquidekkah]

Went through and added everyone on the google doc.

Would you happen to have a link to this elusive google doc?

 

[IntelliHeath]

Went through and added everyone on the google doc.

Did I already added you right?

 

[georly]

Would you happen to have a link to this elusive google doc?

PM oricWindstar to get added and for access.

 

[Makai]

Firstly, exactly which "people" are you referring to? I don't want Ridley. I don't even want boss mode Ridley. Presumably you are referring to the people who like Ridley, who might show up in character polls, but that's not everyone..

Me neither. I'm fine with Boss Ridley, though.

 

[liquidekkah]

PM oricWindstar to get added and for access.

Will do. Thanks.