Super Smash Bros. for 3DS & Wii U Thread XI: Where 90% correct equals 100% wrong

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I suppose you have a strong hate for any standard card game as well? If both players are playing by the same rules then the game can still be fun.
There's a difference between playing a game for fun and playing it competitively. And sure, some card games are played competitively. Poker had a boom in popularity during the last 10 years despite random elements. But a game of poker isn't decided after a few hands, so players get roughly equal hands averaged over the long term. And because players have direct control over the stakes of each hand, Poker is ultimately a risk management game. A game with less risk management such as Go Fish has less viability as a tournament game. Coin-flipping has no chance as a competitive sport.

Smash Bros is also a risk management game, because players have imperfect knowledge of their opponent's future moves. Ideally, competitors only have themselves to blame when they lose. Competitive sets are decided after only 2-3 rounds, so the variance introduced by items greatly reduces the impact of competitor skill on the outcome of the match.
 
So much Dragoon hate :(

i think that its not only Dragoon, but what Dragoon represents. Its the item that better represents the direction that some items took with smash bros brawl. There are many crazy items in brawl.

The Dragoon its one of those things in a game that at first it may look ridiculous and amazing but that, after little time, you realice that it detracts from the basic gameplay of the game. I like to call things like that "easy fun" (in a bad way :p).

Its the type of desing that i dont expect from nintendo. I expect them to work harder, when introducing something in a game, that just introducing something crazy because its "fun".

(in my opinion haha)
 
I want to love Samus again. I hope she's the versatile killing machine she was in Melee.

For Samus and Link, I fear going to their SSB4 incarnations from PM will feel like Melee to Brawl all over again. Though hopefully the comments we've heard so far regarding small buffs to them is an indication of a greater change.
 
Anyone have an idea of who they're going to main? From the footage I've seen and bit that I've played, Villager will certainly be one of mine. Mario looks impressive, too.


Peach as always but I can use almost anyone decently. Mario too if by some miracle he plays like the doc or his project m self.
 
You guys have mentioned a lot of newcomers, and I am definitely excited by several of them. I can't really predict who will end up being my main, of course. Ultimately, it will be decided by their "feel." Before Brawl's release, I expected to main Link (lol) but ended up maining Snake. Each of the Smash 4 newcomers (including Miis) have quite unique movesets:

Robin - Elwind looks beast
Pacman - <3 Fire Hydrant and Bonus Fruit
Palutena - super speed
Miis - Not sure yet, but I love "compilation" characters in other fighting games.
Greninja - Dunno about this one. Looks to me like a hybrid of Sheik and ZSS gameplay.
Little Mac - The new Roy
Rosalina - Hilarious zoning combos from Bill Trinen.
Wii Fit Trainer - Tekken character
Mega Man - Hardnuckle = projectile spike :O
Villager - Basically all of his moves.
 
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Pic of the day. Look at these three radiant pieces... Yup, you guessed it! It's another combinable item like the Dragoon-the Daybreak.

zlCfzSQ0FbIniLrwXP

This is what it looks like when all three parts are combined together. How powerful will its beam blast be? FYI, you can fire shooting items while moving backward and forward. Change direction by flicking the Control Stick or Circle Pad toward the back of the fighter.
Expected and it's pretty awesome.
 
Anyone have an idea of who they're going to main? From the footage I've seen and bit that I've played, Villager will certainly be one of mine. Mario looks impressive, too.

If there is a Skyward Sword Zelda alt costume, I'd play her always no matter what even if she's bottom tier.

"Please Sakurik"
 
Olimar was my main in Brawl and I anticipated maining him in each successive entry, but I am absolutely not a fan of the changes made to him.

I'll probably try him anyways.
 
Olimar was my main in Brawl and I anticipated maiming him in each successive entry, but I am absolutely not a fan of the changes made to him.

I'll probably try him anyways.
Would you mind explaining? I'm familiar with the changes, but it seems to me that he's been buffed overall. Only three Pkmin, but has a huge recovery.
 
Would you mind explaining? I'm familiar with the changes, but it seems to me that he's been buffed overall. Only three Pkmin, but has a huge recovery.

-Only three Pikmin
+Non-shitty Recovery
+Pikmin are plucked in a specific order allowing you to actually plan around your Pikmin this time around
+Only three Pikmin makes it easier to organise the ones you do have

Seems like a pretty nice buff to me as well.
 
I think for me the biggest thing is the only three Pikmin thing. What made Olimar so perfect for me was how playing him felt like organizing an actual, albeit tiny, Pikmin horde. Only three Pikmin feels like the character has been gutted. I do agree the recovery is a huge buff, but (just from the footage I've seen) you're so weighed down when you have three Pikmin that it'll just be: kill off your Pikmin -> Recover -> pluck more, anytime you want to recover. Which isn't terribly laborious, it just seems unnecessary to weigh it down that much to me.

I'm sure Olimar will be better for the changes, I'm just not a huge fan of the way they were implemented. I don't think even 5 Pikmin would've been too much to manage. It just seems like they buffed his recovery then compensated a bit too much with the Pikmin total. I think 4 or 5 would've been better personally.

Also I'm kinda salty that Rock Pikmin didn't make it. I really thought they should take the mechanics of Purples (don't latch on, just smash into targets), and give them to Rocks, then make Purples latch on and increase the weight of targets. Maybe Rock Pikmin will show up in customizable specials though.

I'm sure once I get used to the new Olimar I'll be fine.
 
Anyone have an idea of who they're going to main? From the footage I've seen and bit that I've played, Villager will certainly be one of mine. Mario looks impressive, too.


I want to try and main Luigi again like I did in Brawl. I really enjoyed using him and he has the best side smash. Out of the new characters, Greninja looks to be the most interesting. I want Link to be buffed though, he deserves better than what he's been getting.
 
Also, damn are 3DS capture cards expensive, I was considering getting one so I could stream the 3DS version before I start streaming the WiiU version, but it's 2+ times the price that my elgato was.
 
we don't want competitive smash to be influenced by random factors.

That's a really weird way to write "fun".



If you want take this argument to its logical conclusion, then you can't really be considered a pro at Melee unless you also hold world records in Home-Run Contest. Nah, mate. If you play the game professionally, you're a pro. That's just how it is. Sorry if that bothers you.

Yes, actually, Home-Run Contest is an aspect of Melee. Therefore it's one of the things one would have to excel at to really be a pro at Melee. That's just how it is. Sorry if that bothers you.
 
-Only three Pikmin
+Non-shitty Recovery
+Pikmin are plucked in a specific order allowing you to actually plan around your Pikmin this time around
+Only three Pikmin makes it easier to organise the ones you do have

Seems like a pretty nice buff to me as well.

Going from 5 to 3 Pikmin worsens his game. Dead Pikmin take a time to regenerate before you can pluck them again, so you have to be more careful with them. Also it hurts his projectile game, which was one of his best (and most annoying) traits. But they are nerfing the projectile game for all characters this time around so it doesn't seem much of a deal.
 
Yes, actually, Home-Run Contest is an aspect of Melee. Therefore it's one of the things one would have to excel at to really be a pro at Melee. That's just how it is. Sorry if that bothers you.
Don't be ridiculous now. People are allowed to be good at one aspect or another without it being invalidated. Being a 'pro at Melee' doesn't mean you have to be a pro in all the game types. There's very obviously a mode that most people think of when talking about professional competitions.
 
That's a really weird way to write "fun".

Yes, actually, Home-Run Contest is an aspect of Melee. Therefore it's one of the things one would have to excel at to really be a pro at Melee. That's just how it is. Sorry if that bothers you.

I've never found items to be fun, they suck fun out of the game for me.


And no, that's not how it works, if you play Melee at a professional level, you are a pro melee player. It's not that hard to understand.
 
Cool.

I'll be sure to turn that off in multiplayer.

For this reason. Items like these over-centralize the fight. They make it all about them, and not actually about the match. I turn off stages that do the same thing.

I mightleave it on at first, but this is basically my thoughts. I always leave most items on unless my friends are whining to shut them off, but matches become this over an item that usually misses, so I figured why bother. Daybreak worked great in Uprising, but here, from what I can tell, it's just Dragoon Mk. II...
 
Going from 5 to 3 Pikmin worsens his game. Dead Pikmin take a time to regenerate before you can pluck them again, so you have to be more careful with them. Also it hurts his projectile game, which was one of his best (and most annoying) traits. But they are nerfing the projectile game for all characters this time around so it doesn't seem much of a deal.

Well Olimar needed a bit of a nerf anyway, but the way they've gone about it he atleast has upsides to his nerf.





I've heard people praise how Marth and Fox have "finally" been nerfed as well, but only ever seen people complain about Olimar's very sight nerfs, which to me is very weird - do people not know Olimar was one of the best characters in Brawl or something?
 
Well Olimar needed a bit of a nerf anyway, but the way they've gone about it he atleast has upsides to his nerf.

I've heard people praise how Marth and Fox have "finally" been nerfed as well, but only ever seen people complain about Olimar's very sight nerfs, which to me is very weird - do people not know Olimar was one of the best characters in Brawl or something?
When I think of Brawl characters, I don't think about any nerfs being needed other than Snake and Meta Knight. There were several other characters that were very good, but in the context of that game they weren't huge standouts, I thought.
 
That's a really weird way to write "fun".





Yes, actually, Home-Run Contest is an aspect of Melee. Therefore it's one of the things one would have to excel at to really be a pro at Melee. That's just how it is. Sorry if that bothers you.
Items are fun, but why the hell would anyone want to hit a randomly spawned explosive capsule when money is on the line? Don't be so obtuse.

Also most decent players can play Home Run Contest fyi. And play with items. Let me do bat drop cancels on you while you want to keep items on.
 
Yeah Olimar didn't need a nerf in the Pikmin total department. Like I said, having the total be 5 (or even 4) would've been fine I think.

But recovery buff so yeah. Overall I think Olimar took one step forward and one step back. He's more or less in the same position.

Still not a fan of the change to the Pikmin total though.
 
Anyone have an idea of who they're going to main? From the footage I've seen and bit that I've played, Villager will certainly be one of mine. Mario looks impressive, too.



For me it'll likely be Captain Falcon because he's always been my main and Little Mac because I like how strong his offense and ability to control a match seem. And the OHKO mechanic is just cool.

That said, I've only ever had "soft mains" because I tend to use a majority of the available characters. It's rare for me to play more than three matches using the same character.
 
That's a really weird way to write "fun".





Yes, actually, Home-Run Contest is an aspect of Melee. Therefore it's one of the things one would have to excel at to really be a pro at Melee. That's just how it is. Sorry if that bothers you.
This is like saying you can't be a pro basketball player unless you can spin the ball on your finger. The rules for competitive Melee are standardized and you can look them up if you want to see. And competitive games are not about fun, although I enjoy playing competitively more than I ever did goofing around as a kid.
 
i think that its not only Dragoon, but what Dragoon represents. Its the item that better represents the direction that some items took with smash bros brawl. There are many crazy items in brawl.

The Dragoon its one of those things in a game that at first it may look ridiculous and amazing but that, after little time, you realice that it detracts from the basic gameplay of the game. I like to call things like that "easy fun" (in a bad way :p).

Its the type of desing that i dont expect from nintendo. I expect them to work harder, when introducing something in a game, that just introducing something crazy because its "fun".

Some of the standard items seemed to be powered up in Brawl, but I don't think you can lump the Dragoon with that. It's not just a mindless overpowered item thrown to a random player.

Thanks to the three piece mechanic, basically the very flow of the match changes while the Dragoon is in play - and that's likely why it was added in the first place. It's not just another item, but something that changes the dynamic of the battles when it appears even if the underlining fighting mechanics are still the same. And of course, it can just be turned off too like any other items, if that change of pace actually is negative to the player.

I understand why some people wouldn't desire that change of pace in the first place, but acting like the addition of the Dragoon is a negative to the game is identical to casual players who complain about competitive players using their own custom rules. You're basically annoyed that some people don't play like you.
 
For me it'll likely be Captain Falcon because he's always been my main and Little Mac because I like how strong his offense and ability to control a match seem. And the OHKO mechanic is just cool.

That said, I've only ever had "soft mains" because I tend to use a majority of the available characters. It's rare for me to play more than three matches using the same character.
Unfortunately, it is not a OHKO. Heavy characters can survive it at higher percents, even.
 
Dragoon sucked. I always had that turned off even when I played with items on.

Anyone have an idea of who they're going to main? From the footage I've seen and bit that I've played, Villager will certainly be one of mine. Mario looks impressive, too.


Until I play it I don't really have much idea. I'll start with my old ones (Falcon, Marth, ZSS) and see how things go from there. And I guess Lucina even though she unfortunately just looks like a gimped Marth. If Marth isn't good she will probably just be worse.
 
This is like saying you can't be a pro basketball player unless you can spin the ball on your finger. The rules for competitive Melee are standardized and you can look them up if you want to see. And competitive games are not about fun, although I enjoy playing competitively more than I ever did goofing around as a kid.

The main draw of Super Smash Bros. is it's VS. Mode, and so it is rightly considered a competitive game by nature. Therefore, Smash Bros. is not about fun. Someone should tell Sakurai about this, he won't be too pleased I imagine.

That may not be what you mean to say but it is what you said.

Items are fun, but why the hell would anyone want to hit a randomly spawned explosive capsule when money is on the line?

I thought we were talking about hardcore Smash players? They don't necessarily play for money.
 
Anyway, potential mains:

- Villager (No brainer, perfect character for me)
- Robin (Same as Villager, character I love from a series I love and looks perfectly implemented)
- Olimar (As has been discussed recently)
- Pit (I like the changes in Smash 4. Honestly one of my favorite changes is the VA, haha)
- Mr. G&W (Been reppin since Melee)
- Marth (Mainstay for me at this point)
- Pikachu (Dat Thunderspike)
- Ness (Assuming he'll return, cause I mean come on)
 
zlCfzSQ0FH852MDe-8

Pic of the day. Look at these three radiant pieces... Yup, you guessed it! It's another combinable item like the Dragoon-the Daybreak.

zlCfzSQ0FbIniLrwXP

This is what it looks like when all three parts are combined together. How powerful will its beam blast be? FYI, you can fire shooting items while moving backward and forward. Change direction by flicking the Control Stick or Circle Pad toward the back of the fighter.

Something something Goldmember joke.
 
I'll probably main Robin, Lucina and Wii Fit Trainer. WFT kicks all sorts of ass, and will probably become everyone least favorite character to face off against thanks to her great evasive maneuvers.
 
The main draw of Super Smash Bros. is it's VS. Mode, and so it is rightly considered a competitive game by nature. Therefore, Smash Bros. is not about fun. Someone should tell Sakurai about this, he won't be too pleased I imagine.

That may not be what you mean to say but it is what you said.



I thought we were talking about hardcore Smash players? They don't necessarily play for money.
Competitive and casual are terms used to distinguish Smash Bros playstyles. The competitive community enjoy playing Smash Bros like a fighting game, whereas the casual community like playing Smash Bros like a party game, although there is a lot of overlap. Nobody is going to stop you if you want to use items, etc, but it is bizarre that you want to deconstruct the nature of competitive gaming. Feel free to start a Homerun Contest league.
 
Are we talking about mains? Well I always use Mario as my number 1 main. And have secondaries I play a lot. For this game my secondaries will be: Mega Man, Greninja, Bowser, Luigi, and Pit.
 
I usually wait a while before settling on a main. I'll probably try out everyone first. That being said, I mained ZSS in Brawl and she looks stronger than ever, so she's going to be hard to resist. Ike will probably be my secondary merely because he's my favorite character.

As for the newcomers, Greninja and Little Mac have really appealing movesets. I have to show Robin and Palutena some love, though.
 
Dragoon sucked. I always had that turned off even when I played with items on.



Until I play it I don't really have much idea. I'll start with my old ones (Falcon, Marth, ZSS) and see how things go from there. And I guess Lucina even though she unfortunately just looks like a gimped Marth. If Marth isn't good she will probably just be worse.
I only played one round with Marth against a Level 3 Samus CPU on 3DS at the Best Buy event, but I think he's going to be a good character. Spikes are super easy and his Fair is still good, even if he can't do two in a short hop.
 
HW Ganondorf is pretty cool and all, but Smash Ganondorf is about supreme blows that carry a lot of weight and power to them. Ike already does that with a sword, with slow swings, which makes him clumsy as a trade off.

I think Ganondorf delivering scary blows that can KO you with 3 or 4 of them suit his personality well. I personally loved the Iori grab, it fits his evil, schemy and "play dirty" personally well as it puts you in an unfavorable position and can use it to mess with you again and again.

They only need to make it even more powerful, with hits that can obliterate shields quickly to keep the matches interesting, and maybe changing some of his attacks to make him more Ganondorf like. His stomp, Sparta kick, fast jab and air punch suit him well, but his B could use a change, maybe with a black explosion in front of him. Ganondorf should be all about power and being able to decimate foes quickly without sweating, and not even Bowser nor Ike can do that. I heard Bowser is more of a luchador type nowadays.
 
Coming close to finishing my play through of EarthBound on my Wii U. I really want Ness revealed soon. And considering we've been seeing a lot of content people have been clamping for the past couple of years, I'm confident Saturn Valley will be a stage this time around.
 
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