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[georly]

Although there was that comparison between Sakurai and George Lucas earlier,

That was made by 'melee is like cake' inky. I think we need to cut off all smash analogies. Nip them in the bud.

I would think Popo + Nana's polycount would be a higher polycount than Rosalina + Luma and Olimar + 3 pikmin, plus they have spammable projectiles and particle effects with the ice wind and iceberg toss.


I mean, I don't want to argue for the removal of ICs, but I really do think the 3DS might end up screwing us on this one.

That's true, I forgot about the duplicate projectiles. Once again, those can also be simplified and limited. There are tons of things that can be changed to fit them into the game. I think they're pretty beloved and I'd hate to see a 2-time veteran be cut.

 

[JoeInky]

That was made by 'melee is like cake' inky. I think we need to cut off all smash analogies. Nip them in the bud.

Woah woah woah, I thought it was someone else that made the cake analogy because I made a car analogy because they made a steak analogy?

 

[SoldnerKei]

You could argue that 4 rosalinas, or 4 olimars might do that, too. It's very likely the 3DS is the reason Olimar only has 3 pikmin now.

As long as their character models are simple enough, the 3DS can more than likely handle all 8 of them at the same time. I can't imagine the poly count is that different from 4 olimar. If anything, it's the AI that would cause issues, I think. Considering that pikmin are smart enough to pick up items and return them to you, I don't think nana's AI should be an issue. If it is, they can either optimize it or dumb it down.

Nana's AI definitely isn't that complicated, but if it's not really optimized, it could cause issues, but I really really doubt it, because she's as simple as a pikmin or a luma. If the game can handle them, they can handle nana.

yeah, since Nana is as complex as a cpu controlled character, pikmins and luma AI is limited to certain actions, while Nana has a whole pool for movesets, full interaction with items and other characters(she can attack, grab & be grabbed, etc)

the dumb her down solution would be just more likely that, limit her actions

 

[georly]

Woah woah woah, I thought it was someone else that made the cake analogy because I made a car analogy because they made a steak analogy?

Who knows anymore! I can't hold all these analogies!

 

[YoYo Switch]

I will never believe leaks

 

[IntelliHeath]

Geez, we are almost half way with thread and it's not even a week yet.

I see that beezlebufo got unbanned when I'm looking through old thread. I'm surprised that he haven't post anything.

 

[JoeInky]

Who knows anymore! I can't hold all these analogies!

Let me just make an analogy to balance this all out, maybe if it's one powerful enough, they'll all implode and remove themselves from the space time continuum.


Analogies are like

 

[Loco4Coco]

Geez, we are almost half way with thread and it's not even a week yet.

I see that beezlebufo got unbanned when I'm looking through old thread. I'm surprised that he haven't post anything.

We've hurt his feelings.

 

[PadWarrior]

Geez, we are almost half way with thread and it's not even a week yet.

I see that beezlebufo got unbanned when I'm looking through old thread. I'm surprised that he haven't post anything.

Shhhh don't summon him lol

 

[Neoxon]

I'm so sad because the Ice Climbers and Lucas are my mains and if they go I have NOTHING.

You have absolutely nothing to fear for the Ice Climbers, they're gonna come back.

 

[PadWarrior]

You have absolutely nothing to fear for the Ice Climbers, they're gonna come back.

Agreed. Don't let this bogus rumor get to you.

 

[8 X 11 Printer Paper]

I'm so sad because the Ice Climbers and Lucas are my mains and if they go I have NOTHING.

All 3 of my mains are unconfirmed: Jiggly, G&W and Ice Climbers also. Really only one with any chance of not being in is Ice Climbers and that's super low.

 

[Neoxon]

Agreed. Don't let this bogus rumor get to you.

This guy gets it.

In fact, any rumor that says the Ice Climbers are cut is an easy way to tell if a rumor is fake.

 

[IntelliHeath]

Oh boy. Imagine the salts if Ice Climbers got disconfirmed.

 

[Loco4Coco]

Oh boy. Imagine the salts if Ice Climbers got disconfirmed.

Salt melts ice.

 

[JoeInky]

I think the true thing that debunks the leak is that one of the testers is someone who prefers Melee to Brawl.

I mean, why would Sakurai even listen to him? He's obviously never made a game.

Spoiler

No but seriously that's the thing that outright seems like bullshit to me, way too much wishful thinking and pointless optimism that's commonly found in smashboards.

 

[MrSaturn99]

Woah woah woah, I thought it was someone else that made the cake analogy because I made a car analogy because they made a steak analogy?

JediLink made the cake analogy. I thought you did the Sakurai is George Lucas one, though?

 

[J@hranimo]

After skimming through alla dat:

I am 99% sure Ice Climbers will be back :]

Spoiler

Even though I hate them lol

 

[Lord_Byron28]

Salt melts ice.

Loco4Coco use your powers to get an Ice Climbers reveal for tonight.

 

[georly]

Oh boy. Imagine the salts if Ice Climbers got disconfirmed.

My girlfriend will not play smash 4 if ice climbers are not in. At all. Every time I tell her about some cool smash announcement (paper mario stage! your favorite mario franchise!) she says something along the lines of 'oh, that's not ice climbers, never mind.'

She even has ice climbers keychains. I've heard her mention ice climbers in her sleep.

What if the Ice Climbers are reworked to become "Ice Climber"?

Popo is default and Nana is alternate costume with own colors?

Would be the same for Wii Fit Trainer and Villager.

Would ruin the point of ice climbers. My girlfriend only likes them because they're a 'cute couple.' It's basically the 'boyfriend/girlfriend' team in smash bros, which she finds adorable. She has told me that if it's just one climber she won't be happy and still won't play it.

 

[ALM5252]

What if the Ice Climbers are reworked to become "Ice Climber"?

Popo is default and Nana is an alternate costume with own colors?

Would be the same as Wii Fit Trainer and Villager.

 

[Myn]

Paper Mario was unfortunately cut.

 

[Lord_Byron28]

JediLink made the cake analogy. I thought you did the Sakurai is George Lucas one, though?

He did. It was and still is a terrible analogy.

 

[Freezie KO]

Oh boy. Imagine the salts if Ice Climbers got disconfirmed.

But there's a polar bear in Smash Run...

 

[JoeInky]

JediLink made the cake analogy. I thought you did the Sakurai is George Lucas one, though?

Yeah that was definitely me.

I did it twice as well with the:

"Lucina is the key to all of this"

post (which I thought was a pretty funny joke but apparently not).

 

[georly]

Yeah that was definitely me.

I apologize for confusing the 2 of you!

 

[IntelliHeath]

But there's a polar bear in Smash Run...

Gotta to make a tribute for a dead character.

 

[Tripon]

What if the Ice Climbers are reworked to become "Ice Climber"?

Popo is default and Nana is an alternate costume with own colors?

Would be the same as Wii Fit Trainer and Villager.

Not going to happen. Sakurai wouldn't turn an interesting character into something more generic.

 

[Loco4Coco]

Loco4Coco use your powers to get an Ice Climbers reveal for tonight.

Sorry, but character reveals are for Fridays.

 

[Freezie KO]

Gotta to make a tribute for a dead character.

Can't... can't we at least get a super-powered Sopo?

 

[JoeInky]

I apologize for confusing the 2 of you!

Well JediLink is my alt account so it's an easy mistake to make!

Spoiler

Sarcasm obviously, figured I'd protect my ass though

 

[Exotoro]

i don't see the ice climbers getting cut but I think out of the entire roster they're maybe the most forgettable, with not much fan art at all or even really a mention from nintendo

nintendo has brought back R.O.B in kind of small way after Brawl even though he's kind of forgettable as well (you rarely see fan art of him either...)

that said I'm not surprised to hear on most leaks that they're cut; same goes with every melee character that was cut with the sole exception being mewtwo

 

[ALM5252]

Not going to happen. Sakurai wouldn't turn an interesting character into something more generic.

I agree, but mentioned it due to all the "issues" 8 Ice Climbers would cause our as a means to protect them from being cut because the 3DS limitations.

 

[alecfa]

Reposting and elaborating:

If nana's AI is too much, there are solutions, like dumbing her down, or not allowing desync (which might ruin competitive ice climbers) and having nana have no need to recover (teleports to you if she gets too far away) so that the AI doesn't have to be as smart.

I don't know how this has even been spun into a potential cause for removal. Game AI typically isn't "artificial intelligence". In Nana's case, it's a set of rules and corner cases to abide by. Simple logic, like:

If not attacking, and not in attack cooldown, move towards Popo on the X-Axis, then on the Y
If near Popo, mirror his movements on a frame delay

Citing this sort of thing as the reason for their potential removal is absolutely ridiculous. Logic like that is NES stuff. If anything, Sakurai was referring to the higher vertex count in comparison with other characters, or more likely, the difficulty in distinguishing 8 individual Ice Climbers running around on a 3DS-sized screen, in addition to whatever assist trophies and pokeballs may be active.

With their default poses and outfits in brawl:

Popo sits at 2902 tris

Nana at 2920 tris

And most other characters hovering around 5K or 6K.
Mario's at 5186

A pretty negligible difference, when put together. If there's any difficulty in having the Ice Climbers playable on 3DS - it's in the fact that the smaller screen makes distinguishing characters more difficult. And that's a design challenge, not a technical one.

Now can we stop with all this "3DS is holding Wii U back" garbage?

 

[Diprosalic]

where can i find this leak? Duck Hunt Dog?

 

[Makonero]

Paper Mario was unfortunately cut.

His chances were paper thin.

 

[Myn]

What if the Ice Climbers are reworked to become "Ice Climber"?

Popo is default and Nana is an alternate costume with own colors?

Would be the same as Wii Fit Trainer and Villager.

I thought about this as well, if that was ever the case then they would need to be heavily redesigned. Playing as just one IC isn't fun, when you have both there's a lot of technical management of the second IC that goes on and that's where their gameplay comes from. Removing that destroys the strategy of keeping your second IC intact when you become separated, as well as the overall effectiveness of your moves since a single IC can't conventionally inflict much damage.

You guys shouldn't worry about things like graphical limitations preventing IC's from being cut. Things like Smash Run, where it's basically a gigantic stage with tons of monsters spawning. If the 3DS can handle that, it'll have no problem rendering four IC's at once. If it was such a problem, they could have the second IC be a much lower-res model but detail it so it fits the quality of the rest of the characters.

 

[Übermatik]

His chances were paper thin.

I think Nintendo folded on their decision to include him.

 

[oreomunsta]

Reposting and elaborating:



I don't know how this has even been spun into a potential cause for removal. Game AI typically isn't "artificial intelligence". In Nana's case, it's a set of rules and corner cases to abide by. Simple logic, like:

If not attacking, and not in attack cooldown, move towards Popo on the X-Axis, then on the Y
If near Popo, mirror his movements on a frame delay

Citing this sort of thing as the reason for their potential removal is absolutely ridiculous. Logic like that is NES stuff. If anything, Sakurai was referring to the higher vertex count in comparison with other characters, or more likely, the difficulty in distinguishing 8 individual Ice Climbers running around on a 3DS-sized screen, in addition to whatever assist trophies and pokeballs may be active.

With their default poses and outfits in brawl:

Popo sits at 2902 tris

Nana at 2920 tris

And most other characters hovering around 5K or 6K.
Mario's at 5186

A pretty negligible difference, when put together. If there's any difficulty in having the Ice Climbers playable on 3DS - it's in the fact that the smaller screen makes distinguishing characters more difficult. And that's a design problem, not a technical one.

Now can we stop with all this "3DS is holding Wii U back" garbage?

Do you happen to have more breakdowns like this? I find that stuff fascinating o__o

 

[SmithnCo]

Good info on tri counts. The climbers aren't exactly complicated characters in both design and AI, so I don't think the 3DS wouldn't be able to handle them.

 

[Storm Kyleis]

this is just why Ice Climbers are likely untouched, rosalina and luma works somewhat the same way after all, doubt they haven't found a work around for ice climbers

That's why I posted it. He said that Ice Climbers were proving "a challenge", but also that no one had been cut so far.

 

[rekameohs]

Now can we stop with all this "3DS is holding Wii U back" garbage?

Great post. I never understood why so many people parrot this out for some reason. The 3DS is a very capable console, with more RAM than GameCube or Wii, and I would say that those ran Ice Climbers just fine, wouldn't you all agree? The whole point of that comment, which was taken absurdly out of context, was that fitting more characters on a small screen like the 3DS's is a challenge new to Smash Bros.

 

[Loco4Coco]

Isn't the 3ds "stronger" than the Wii anyways?

 

[Myn]

His chances were paper thin.

I think Nintendo folded on their decision to include him.

 

[JoeInky]

Now can we stop with all this "3DS is holding Wii U back" garbage?

No.

On the topic of the roster, Sakurai noted that the 3DS version of the game, with its hardware’s technical limitations, would likely keep the volume of the roster in check, though no characters had been cut so far, and any determination to that effect is a ways away. Which characters ultimately are included will be the result of careful consideration, ranging from which fighters have unique characteristics, equally representing franchises and how signature traits carry over well from previous games like Brawl. Sakurai did tell me that “multiple character” combatants like the Ice Climbers were proving a technical challenge on the 3DS.

Maybe this has since changed somewhat, but the 3DS' lower technical specs will always have been taken into consideration when designing shared content.



Unless you were just talking about ICs still and not in a general sense.

 

[georly]

I agree, but mentioned it due to all the "issues" 8 Ice Climbers would cause our as a means to protect them from being cut because the 3DS limitations.

Does anyone know a way or a website that lists polygon counts for each character? How does ice climbers compare to everyone else? Is it astronomically greater? Is it similar to someone with a lot of detail?

What's the most damage Ice climbers can do, poly-count-wise? 8 climbers, 8-16-24? projectiles (ice things) out on screen while all doing the down-b? All w/ raccon tails and ears Add in some crazy assist trophy or pokeball, while a cucco is attacking (can cuccos exist at the same time as an assist trophy?) Maximum high-poly items on screen as well, on a busy stage, like mario kart/lumiose/reset bomb... Will that slow the game down?

Edit: seems like my questions have been answered.

After looking at everything I really don't think it'll be an issue. No worse than any other 4 characters.

And yes, I'm just simplifying her rules as AI. I know it's not much more than a set of rules, but that's really all most game NPC 'AI' is - rules. I don't mean AI as in... actual AI.


AND FOR THE RECORD - I'm not saying I think that ice climbers aren't possible on 3DS. I fully believe they are. I'm just spitballing ideas and possibilities, trying to make sure that there is no way the 3DS is the reason that they're not in.

 

[udivision]

Isn't the 3ds "stronger" than the Wii anyways?

I think it's more modern and supports newer shaders... but I don't think it is more powerful.

 

[rekameohs]

Isn't the 3ds "stronger" than the Wii anyways?

Yep, it is. Just pushes fewer polygons, but that's no issue.

 

[Myn]

Reposting and elaborating:



I don't know how this has even been spun into a potential cause for removal. Game AI typically isn't "artificial intelligence". In Nana's case, it's a set of rules and corner cases to abide by. Simple logic, like:

If not attacking, and not in attack cooldown, move towards Popo on the X-Axis, then on the Y
If near Popo, mirror his movements on a frame delay

Citing this sort of thing as the reason for their potential removal is absolutely ridiculous. Logic like that is NES stuff. If anything, Sakurai was referring to the higher vertex count in comparison with other characters, or more likely, the difficulty in distinguishing 8 individual Ice Climbers running around on a 3DS-sized screen, in addition to whatever assist trophies and pokeballs may be active.

With their default poses and outfits in brawl:

Popo sits at 2902 tris

Nana at 2920 tris

And most other characters hovering around 5K or 6K.
Mario's at 5186

A pretty negligible difference, when put together. If there's any difficulty in having the Ice Climbers playable on 3DS - it's in the fact that the smaller screen makes distinguishing characters more difficult. And that's a design challenge, not a technical one.

Now can we stop with all this "3DS is holding Wii U back" garbage?

Gonna quote this for this page so people understand. Great post.

 

[PadWarrior]

That is a very good post