Super Smash Bros Wii U & 3DS Thread 4: New Year, Old Arguments

Meh, I think it's really hard to try and predict any of the characters potential movesets. Some definitely are based almost exclusively off moves from their games but if Sakurai wants to include the character then he obviously has things in mind for them and will make them feel unique and interesting. But that's just my opinion about it.

Also, thank you Ryce for giving me a little better perspective. I think that it is very easy to get over-whelmed with the hype train and forget about some amazing and mind-blowing reveals that have already occured. WFT? man I seriously was in shock when I saw that trailer and thought someone was trolling hard.
 
I don’t mean to single you out, but I think the general condescension towards “safe” rosters is a combination of revisionist history and goalpost moving.

Regarding the revisionist history: Pokémon Trainer and R.O.B. were the only post-E3 2006 Brawl newcomers that nobody (or very few people) speculated. Ike, Diddy, Lucas, Sonic, Dedede, Olimar, Lucario, Toon Link, and Wolf were all heavily discussed from the moment Brawl was revealed. Few people wanted Toon Link or Wolf, but they were still talked about. People thought Young Link would get a Wind Waker redesign and/or be renamed to Cel-Shaded Link, Cat-Eyed Link, or Hero of Winds. There was even a hoax that Sakurai confirmed Toon Link during a radio interview. Wolf seems to be forgotten because Krystal was the more anticipated Star Fox character.

Regarding goalpost moving: for whatever reason, people act like the already revealed newcomers don’t count as surprises when critiquing roster predictions. I wouldn’t call any of the four revealed newcomers “safe.” Nobody saw Wii Fit Trainer coming, nobody expected a Rosalina & Luma tag team, and everyone counted Villager out after Sakurai deemed Animal Crossing unfit for Brawl. Even Mega Man scored poorly in Heath’s pre-E3 roster prediction contest. I can’t help that they’ve already been revealed. That also doesn’t mean every future newcomer is going to somehow shock everybody — there’s a finite amount of Nintendo characters, and an even smaller amount of sensible Nintendo newcomers. We already know about most of the unexpected newcomers.

Agree with most of this. I just hope there's one or two characters left with a Wii Fit Trainer level of WTF to them.
 
Yea, Ryce's post nails it.
Fair enough, but Samurai Warriors 3 was released internationally.
Yea I know that. The way my sentence was structured was terrible lol, so I can't blame you at all.

Was referring to the Takamaru IP itself with this, "An obscure Japan-only IP that had" and then referring to Samurai Warriors 3 with this, "a game within another game".
I get what you mean, but "slashing with sword quickly", "slashing with sword strongly" and "slashing with sword elegantly" doesn't seem very different in comparison to "commands plant drones for attacks", "uses space-based magic" or "utilizes a yo-yo".
Well you've got a "fitness trainer that uses yoga and stuff as attacks", a "space queen that has a little star as a stand", a "villager who uses everyday things found in his/her game as attacks", and a "robot who uses various moves from bosses he faces". Mega Man in Smash is very different compared to other fighting games he has been in.

I think Sakurai and co. has been nailing the presentation of characters with every newcomer so far.

You aren't given a choice of either having Takamaru or some crazy whacky character. It is either some crazy whacky character is in or not, which is entirely unrelated to whether Takamaru is in or not.

You have characters that punch/kick fast or slow as the main difference. You have to look at what else they do. You see Link and Toon Link using key items throughout the Zelda series. Labeling them only as a swordsman is really simplistic.
 
Little Mac is the safest newcomer prediction you can make at this point.
 
Maybe it's just me but I'd rather have a safe roster with characters I like over a bunch of "wtf" characters.

Considering we already had the safest rooster garanteed with brawl, I would love to see more WTF newcomers like WFT, Captain N, Sukapon and things like that
 
Regarding WTF characters, here’s something I wrote up a while back:
We already have our Mr. Game & Watch/R.O.B., and it’s Wii Fit Trainer. There are a lot of parallels between the three characters.

They’re the only Smash Bros. characters tied to a specific piece of hardware/peripheral — they do not come from standalone retail games that can just be popped into a console. Mr. Game & Watch represents the line of handheld Game & Watch units, R.O.B. is literally a piece of hardware, and the Wii Balance Board is necessary to play Wii Fit.

Each character represents an important moment in Nintendo history, too. Game & Watch was Nintendo’s first big hit, R.O.B. “saved” the North American gaming industry, and Nintendo achieved its biggest success to date with their casual-focused approach to the Wii.

The most straightforward bit of evidence suggesting that Wii Fit Trainer is our “WTF character” comes from an interview Sakurai gave in the August 2008 issue of Nintendo Dream magazine (which is referenced in R.O.B.’s Japanese Wikipedia article). In it, Sakurai says he chose R.O.B. for Brawl because he wanted another “unexpected appearance” (“tojo no igaisei”) in the vein of Melee’s Mr. Game & Watch. This is the same language he’s used to describe Wii Fit Trainer in the Japanese Developer Direct and Famitsu columns published since E3.
Again, just because she doesn’t appear to be a hidden character people act like she doesn’t “count” as the WTF character. We don’t even know what SSB4’s unlock situation is like.
 
WTF characters and characters you like shouldn't be mutually exclusive

Well yeah, but what I mean is I don't want them to go over board with wtf characters. WFT is cool and I'm glad we got her but I wouldn't want a bunch of choices such as that if it came at the cost of Little Mac or Palutena.
 
I feel like another Pikmin captain would be an even safer pick than Mac'n'cheese
No way, I can't see another Pikmin captain as part of the roster. There's really not much you can do with another that wouldn't be a straight clone. Even in the Pikmin games, all the captains have the exact same properties iirc
 
I don’t mean to single you out, but I think the general condescension towards “safe” rosters is a combination of revisionist history and goalpost moving.

Regarding the revisionist history: Pokémon Trainer and R.O.B. were the only post-E3 2006 Brawl newcomers that nobody (or very few people) speculated. Ike, Diddy, Lucas, Sonic, Dedede, Olimar, Lucario, Toon Link, and Wolf were all heavily discussed from the moment Brawl was revealed. Few people wanted Toon Link or Wolf, but they were still talked about. People thought Young Link would get a Wind Waker redesign and/or be renamed to Cel-Shaded Link, Cat-Eyed Link, or Hero of Winds. There was even a hoax that Sakurai confirmed Toon Link during a radio interview. Wolf seems to be forgotten because Krystal was the more anticipated Star Fox character.

Regarding goalpost moving: for whatever reason, people act like the already revealed newcomers don’t count as surprises when critiquing roster predictions. I wouldn’t call any of the four revealed newcomers “safe.” Nobody saw Wii Fit Trainer coming, nobody expected a Rosalina & Luma tag team, and everyone counted Villager out after Sakurai deemed Animal Crossing unfit for Brawl. Even Mega Man scored poorly in Heath’s pre-E3 roster prediction contest. I can’t help that they’ve already been revealed. That also doesn’t mean every future newcomer is going to somehow shock everybody — there’s a finite amount of Nintendo characters left, and an even smaller amount of sensible Nintendo characters left. It’s not beyond reason to assume that we already know about most of the unexpected newcomers.

this this this this holy crap this, godamn this, sonofabitch this.
 
I don’t mean to single you out, but I think the general condescension towards “safe” rosters is a combination of revisionist history and goalpost moving.

I wasn't trying to be condescending towards your character picks. If I came off as such, I want to apologize. As I said, I wouldn't be opposed to that roster (aside from Ridley getting shafted again). I just think it lacks... oomph. You know what I mean?

Regarding the revisionist history: Pokémon Trainer and R.O.B. were the only post-E3 2006 Brawl newcomers that nobody (or very few people) speculated. Ike, Diddy, Lucas, Sonic, Dedede, Olimar, Lucario, Toon Link, and Wolf were all heavily discussed from the moment Brawl was revealed. Few people wanted Toon Link or Wolf, but they were still talked about. People thought Young Link would get a Wind Waker redesign and/or be renamed to Cel-Shaded Link, Cat-Eyed Link, or Hero of Winds. There was even a hoax that Sakurai confirmed Toon Link during a radio interview. Wolf seems to be forgotten because Krystal was the more anticipated Star Fox character.

And ROB ended up being my most favorite newcomer of Brawl, G&W was my most favorite newcomer of Melee. I am quite aware that many of the characters on the Brawl roster were talked about or expected, but I still feel that Olimar, Lucario, Zero Suit Samus, etc., at least brought enough new things to the table with their unique mechanics and movesets.

In terms of their movesets, Toon Zelda (safe to assume would be somewhat similar to regular Zelda), Dixie, Takamaru, Wii Fit Trainer and potentially Pac-Man all don't seem to be particularly interesting. I don't think there's many ways for Sakurai to make them have a unique playstyle - Wii Fit Trainer's "saving grace" is that she was completely unexpected, but also just works within the Smash series. In retrospect, to me, Wii Fit Trainer seems like a really obvious choice.

Regarding goalpost moving: for whatever reason, people act like the already revealed newcomers don’t count as surprises when critiquing roster predictions. I wouldn’t call any of the four revealed newcomers “safe.”

I wasn't talking about the characters that were already revealed, though, but about the characters that you had on the roster otherwise.

That also doesn’t mean every future newcomer is going to somehow shock everybody — there’s a finite amount of Nintendo characters, and an even smaller amount of sensible Nintendo newcomers. We already know about most of the unexpected newcomers.

It doesn't have to be a shock character ala ROB/Wii Fit Trainer/etc. to be an interesting reveal, or be a wacky choice.

Personally, I 100% expected Rosalina. I heavily expected her to be playable, and knew she was going to be in Smash the moment they revealed she was going to be in 3D World. Yet Sakurai completely surprised me with her just because she is so extremely unique in playstyle. You already said it - the tag team with Luma is unexpected, and out of the currently revealed newcomers, Rosalina is the single one I'm looking forward to the most, if only for the wacky playstyle.

The only unrevealed character on your roster that has the potential to be extremely unique in that regard is Palutena - she uses a staff and has lotsa magic. That already is potential for unique gameplay. She would be the one I would look forward to as well.
Pac-Man has huge potential as well, but it really depends on what Namco and Sakurai would do with him.

But otherwise, I feel like that roster would be somewhat of a letdown, just because most of the unconfirmed characters on your list just lack that wackiness in their gameplay.

I still hope the roster is gonna be much bigger than we are anticipating. 8 newcomers seems so little to me.
 
No way, I can't see another Pikmin captain as part of the roster. There's really not much you can do with another that wouldn't be a straight clone. Even in the Pikmin games, all the captains have the exact same properties iirc

Yeah, another Pikmin Captain would be redundant. I feel like it'll take away from Olimar's schtick as the Pikmin guy. It could happen, but I doubt it.
 
I don’t mean to single you out, but I think the general condescension towards “safe” rosters is a combination of revisionist history and goalpost moving.

Regarding the revisionist history: Pokémon Trainer and R.O.B. were the only post-E3 2006 Brawl newcomers that nobody (or very few people) speculated. Ike, Diddy, Lucas, Sonic, Dedede, Olimar, Lucario, Toon Link, and Wolf were all heavily discussed from the moment Brawl was revealed. Few people wanted Toon Link or Wolf, but they were still talked about. People thought Young Link would get a Wind Waker redesign and/or be renamed to Cel-Shaded Link, Cat-Eyed Link, or Hero of Winds. There was even a hoax that Sakurai confirmed Toon Link during a radio interview. Wolf seems to be forgotten because Krystal was the more anticipated Star Fox character.

Regarding goalpost moving: for whatever reason, people act like the already revealed newcomers don’t count as surprises when critiquing roster predictions. I wouldn’t call any of the four revealed newcomers “safe.” Nobody saw Wii Fit Trainer coming, nobody expected a Rosalina & Luma tag team, and everyone counted Villager out after Sakurai deemed Animal Crossing unfit for Brawl. Even Mega Man scored poorly in Heath’s pre-E3 roster prediction contest. I can’t help that they’ve already been revealed. That also doesn’t mean every future newcomer is going to somehow shock everybody — there’s a finite amount of Nintendo characters left, and an even smaller amount of sensible Nintendo characters left. It’s not beyond reason to assume that we already know about most of the unexpected newcomers.

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Brillant post! I can't believe that I overlooked this post in first place. Serve me right for watching super bowl awhile reading smash thread at same time.
 
No way, I can't see another Pikmin captain as part of the roster. There's really not much you can do with another that wouldn't be a straight clone. Even in the Pikmin games, all the captains have the exact same properties iirc
Flying Pikmin and Rock Pikmin are two things Captain Olimar doesn't use....well, we haven't seen him use them.
 
No way, I can't see another Pikmin captain as part of the roster. There's really not much you can do with another that wouldn't be a straight clone. Even in the Pikmin games, all the captains have the exact same properties iirc

You're right, I don't disagree with it one bit =) The point brought up was the safest pick, not one that would be the best. Pikmin has become a decently-sized franchise, and another representative from it wouldn't seem so crazy if you look at the Mario, Zelda, and Pokemon representation (Note: I'm Not talking about slots, there's no such thing). Safer does not equate to "better" or "more fun".

Another really safe pick, although I would love to see this character get in, is Chrom. Chrom, as a standalone fighter as opposed to a Chrom/Lucina team, would be a way safer pick than Little Mac.
 
I wasn't trying to be condescending towards your character picks. If I came off as such, I want to apologize.
Oh, don't worry, I wasn't directing that post at you. I'm just generally frustrated that the only roster predictions received warmly (mostly at other sites) are those that arbitrarily include trivial characters like the Teleroboxer guy. Everyone tries to manufacture surprise, but even the most unexpected Smash Bros. characters have important historical context.
 
Rosalina is a surprise character in retrospective. I never would have expected her in August or something. It was only during the 3D World reveal that I expected her somewhat, but even then, I would have never expected the Luma.
Can't you play as him in Versus mode in Pikmin 3?
I mean we haven't seen him use them yet in Smash 4.
 
Oh, don't worry, I wasn't directing that post at you. I'm just generally frustrated that the only roster predictions received warmly (mostly at other sites) are those that arbitrarily include trivial characters like the Teleroboxer guy. Everyone tries to manufacture surprise, but even the most unexpected Smash Bros. characters have important historical context.

I understand what you mean, and I didn't want to be rude. Though that is the sole reason I don't post roster predictions or extended wishlists beyond saying I want Ridley in.

My character choices would be incredibly weird - my most wanted character after Ridley is, after all, Captain Syrup. I think that should be telling toward which kind of characters I gravitate. :P

Rosalina is a surprise character in retrospective.

I always thought that if Mario got a new character, it would be Rosalina.
 
I don’t mean to single you out, but I think the general condescension towards “safe” rosters is a combination of revisionist history and goalpost moving.

Regarding the revisionist history: Pokémon Trainer and R.O.B. were the only post-E3 2006 Brawl newcomers that nobody (or very few people) speculated. Ike, Diddy, Lucas, Sonic, Dedede, Olimar, Lucario, Toon Link, and Wolf were all heavily discussed from the moment Brawl was revealed. Few people wanted Toon Link or Wolf, but they were still talked about. People thought Young Link would get a Wind Waker redesign and/or be renamed to Cel-Shaded Link, Cat-Eyed Link, or Hero of Winds. There was even a hoax that Sakurai confirmed Toon Link during a radio interview. Wolf seems to be forgotten because Krystal was the more anticipated Star Fox character.

Regarding goalpost moving: for whatever reason, people act like the already revealed newcomers don’t count as surprises when critiquing roster predictions. I wouldn’t call any of the four revealed newcomers “safe.” Nobody saw Wii Fit Trainer coming, nobody expected a Rosalina & Luma tag team, and everyone counted Villager out after Sakurai deemed Animal Crossing unfit for Brawl. Even Mega Man scored poorly in Heath’s pre-E3 roster prediction contest. I can’t help that they’ve already been revealed. That also doesn’t mean every future newcomer is going to somehow shock everybody — there’s a finite amount of Nintendo characters left, and an even smaller amount of sensible Nintendo characters left. It’s not beyond reason to assume that we already know about most of the unexpected newcomers.
This guy gets it!

Don't expect any crazy, unexpected characters. I highly doubt we're going to get another character that literally nobody seriously expected like Wii Fit Trainer. There will surely be characters that people will be surprised by because they didn't think they'd actually end up being playable, but not because they never thought of them. Rosalina & Luma is a good example of that. Rosalina is a popular character and was commonly suggested, but many people discounted her—but they were surprised when she was revealed for that very reason. And in hindsight, her inclusion makes perfect sense, like Wii Fit Trainer. But she wasn't exactly unexpected like Wii Fit Trainer. I think that pretty much any character that's going to be revealed from here on out isn't going to be surprising because no one thought of it. What's going to be surprising is that it actually happened.
 
Well yeah, but what I mean is I don't want them to go over board with wtf characters. WFT is cool and I'm glad we got her but I wouldn't want a bunch of choices such as that if it came at the cost of Little Mac or Palutena.

Yeah, that makes sense. For some reason I think this time around the roster will be relatively safe though.
 
Chrom, as a standalone fighter as opposed to a Chrom/Lucina team, would be a way safer pick than Little Mac.

Yeah, but, we have already seen Mac's stage. Safety.
 
Yeah, but, we have already seen Mac's stage. Safety.

True. But we've also got Arena Ferox, which is confirmed as being so rather than still up in the air like the boxing stage is

EDIT: For ArchedThunder below. It isn't really a leak unless it's true. Either we wait till we have the game and the characters show up or some hints about their previous existence are found in the game data, or we send in one of us on an insider job to Sakurai's studio =p
 
True. But we've also got Arena Ferox, which is confirmed as being so rather than still up in the air like the boxing stage is

I think it is more likely for there to be a new Fire Emblem: Awakening stage without direct character representation, than a generic ring stage being in the game that also shares numerous visual similarities with a specific franchise for no reason.

But anyway, Chrom wouldn't be a surprise.
 
I feel like Chrom is almost too safe. It could be end up being Robin/The Avatar instead. Or hell, nobody. Chrom is really boring and everybody will stop caring about him by the next game. I don't see the point in adding him to be honest, he doesn't bring anything interesting to the table.
 
You guys do know it is OK to have "safe" (I'm starting to hate the word)/expected charcters as well as surprising/unexpected characters?

I feel like people are way too fixated on it.
 
You guys do know it is OK to have "safe" (I'm starting to hate the word)/expected charcters as well as surprising/unexpected characters?

I feel like people are way too fixated on it.

Yes I know, im going to be every bit as happy about every newcomer coming in as I was for brawl and melee.
 
You guys do know it is OK to have "safe" (I'm starting to hate the word)/expected charcters as well as surprising/unexpected characters?

I feel like people are way too fixated on it.

I'll start using "of a higher qualitative probability" instead of "safe" then =)

I don't disagree with you at all though. Smash without Mario (arguably the character of the highest qualitative probability) would feel so wrong.
 
Yoshi isn't a safe bet.

Boshi could totally replace him.
 
Okay, so what wacky things would Takamaru do then? I mean, it's obvious that, as a swordsman, he's gonna use mostly sword moves. And as his specials, he probably will have some ninja stars, and Inazuma thunder as either another special or his final smash. And that's where his game's source material ends. I guess we could see some other ninja magic or weapons, but I dunno. I just don't think that Takamaru is ever gonna be even slightly comparable in wacky playstyle to Olimar, or Rosalina, or the Ice Climbers.

He also had fireballs, throwing knives and an invisibility coat. He could actually be a heavily projectile based sword wielder, rather than a more straight forward one, mixing up some projectiles in the middle of his normal attacks.
 
You guys do know it is OK to have "safe" (I'm starting to hate the word)/expected charcters as well as surprising/unexpected characters?

I feel like people are way too fixated on it.

It's more than okay, it's better for the most part imo. I'll gladly take safe choices I want like Little Mac or Palutena over someone no one ever could have expected. Those characters have a place but when people act like the whole roster should be like that I just don't get it.
 
Yeah, I think some people forget these games are more or less just a gigantic piece of fan service in the end. I'll generally take safe characters over random characters. A few odd ball choices are fine, though.
 
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