Super Smash Bros Wii U & 3DS Thread 4: New Year, Old Arguments

I'm looking around the forums, but I found the link, and cednym posted the information in other thread.

I was going through some of my old discs and hard drives and I came across something that I've been trying to find for years: beta Smash Bros. roster information that I typed up waaaay back in 2002.

These notes come from the official Japanese N64 Smash Bros. site and a bunch of old Famitsu magazines from early 2002 (I want to say somewhere between January and April). I'd greatly appreciate any help in relocating some of these articles, because it appears that they've been lost in time. I'm hopeful that there's additional information out there in issues that I haven't had the chance to read.

In the original Super Smash Bros., Sakurai wanted to include some hidden villains: Bowser, Dedede, Wolf (Star Fox 64 was brand new during the planning period), and Mewtwo. However, time and budget constraints meant that Sakurai had to ditch these characters.

Fast forward to Melee: Bowser, Dedede, and Mewtwo were planned for inclusion, but later on Sakurai decided to cut Dedede in favor of adding six clones in his place. (Fans were asking for more characters, so Sakurai figured it would be better to add six clones than to add one original character.) Wolf was going to be one of these clones, but ultimately Falco made the cut because he received more fan requests and because he stood out more from Fox visually. So… Dedede and Wolf were both planned for the first Smash Bros. AND Melee, but they made the final cut for neither. You could say that Dedede and Wolf were eight years in the making.

Just for fun, here's a quick mock-up of what the N64 Smash Bros. select screen probably looked like in terms of placement:

3jWQF.png


I'm amazed at how conveniently the villains line up below their respective universes. I didn't even have to change the order of any of the default characters!

What does this mean for SSB4? Some of the "Forbidden Seven" might be more likely than we think, given Sakurai's evident propensity for carrying over planned characters into future games.
Click to expand...

I can't remember if I posted this on NeoGAF, and it isn't really 100% on topic, but I made bullet points of the old 2002 Famitsu translations I found on my old computer pertaining to Melee. There's some good insight in here, I think. It's interesting that a lot of these concepts ended up making it into Brawl.

  • It was decided early on to separate the newcomers into two even groups for balance reasons: fan favorites (as determined by a survey) and unique, unexpected characters.
  • Bowser, Peach, Mewtwo, and Marth were culled from the fan survey.
  • Zelda, Sheik, Ice Climbers, and Mr. Game & Watch made up the other group.
  • Just in case Sakurai couldn't get approval to use Marth from Intelligent Systems, he had some King Dedede concepts ready as a backup.
  • Wario placed third in the poll, but with Bowser and Peach pencilled in, Sakurai didn't want to include 3 Mario newcomers.
  • Sakurai considered adding a character from Pokémon Gold/Silver during planning, but none of the popular options were feasible.
  • He thought about having a trainer summon the second generation starters, but there wasn't time/resources for such a labor-intensive character.
  • Pichu was promoted as the main Pokémon from those games, but it would have been too similar to Pikachu, so Sakurai passed on it.
  • Thinking back to Pichu is partly what made Sakurai want to include clones.
  • Clones were not included in Melee's planning documents.
  • Sakurai had a hard time deciding on all of the clones, though some choices came easy like Pichu and Young Link.
  • Sakurai says that he probably could have finished Dedede in the time it took to make the 6 clones, but he's glad he was able to beef the roster up a bit.
  • Wario was briefly considered as the Mario clone, with low speed and high attack power, but Sakurai felt that Wario deserved better.
  • Dr. Mario made sense for a few reasons: he's from a critically-acclaimed retro game, the team wanted to include his music, and because a doctor would probably be on hand at an event as violent as Smash Bros.
  • Wolf was considered as Fox's clone, but with shared animations Sakurai felt he would just be perceived as a gray-colored Fox, so he went with Falco for his drastically different appearance and excellent jumping capabilities.
  • Leaf was considered as Marth's clone, but when Sakurai went to Intelligent Systems for approval they gave him an early look at the GBA Fire Emblem, and he agreed that Roy would be a better fit. Sakurai mentions his fire properties as making him stand out.
  • Ganondorf was the last character added to the game. He was only included because he was popular, had a similar body type to Captain Falcon, and because Sakurai couldn't really think of any additional plausible clones.
Click to expand...
 
Sometimes I feel like Sakurai has a massive grudge against Ganondorf.
 
The WarioWare characters are so peripheral that I couldn't imagine there ever being a second character in Smash Bros. under any circumstance. It's just one of those series that feels adequately represented with a single character. I feel the same way about Animal Crossing, Pikmin, Yoshi, and F-Zero.
 
Anura said:
I thought one usage was to denote missing letters... Is it strictly limited to word like "don't" or can I use it informally to imply slurred speach?
Click to expand...

Nah, I was just joking around that I got your reference.

its the line reference that just won't die lol
 
I wonder if we ever got any insight on if Sakurai ever considered Rare characters before the buyout. The proximity mine in Melee was based off the one from Perfect Dark at one point. I'm also sure Banjo had to be considered at one point.
 
Sponge said:
I wonder if we ever got any insight on if Sakurai ever considered Rare characters before the buyout. The proximity mine in Melee was based off the one from Perfect Dark at one point. I'm also sure Banjo had to be considered at one point.
Click to expand...

Dunno if Rare characters were considered by Sakurai himself, but they were certainly highly requested after Smash 64.

This Japanese poll following the release of Smash 64 had Banjo & Kazooie at #8 most requested and James Bond at #6, tied with Mewtwo. Given that everybody above them on the list has since been added (Bowser, Peach, Wario, Dedede, Ganon, Mewtwo), I'm sure Sakurai must have at taken at least some note.

edit: Oops, hadn't noticed this was already discussed higher up on the page.
 
Ryce said:
The WarioWare characters are so peripheral that I couldn't imagine there ever being a second character in Smash Bros. under any circumstance. It's just one of those series that feels adequately represented with a single character. I feel the same way about Animal Crossing, Pikmin, Yoshi, and F-Zero.
Click to expand...

F-Zero wasn't really represented at all.
 
IntelliHeath said:
I'm looking around the forums, but I found the link, and cednym posted the information in other thread.
Click to expand...

Great read, thanks for posting it here! Its crazy how many times Dedede nearly made it in, and also Mewtwo's history with the development of the series makes the Brawl exclusion even more odd.
 
Slate Soda said:
F-Zero wasn't really represented at all.
Click to expand...

F-Zero is my favorite Nintendo series, and I think its actually very well represented all things considered. Melee and Brawl had a fast moving track that featured all other racers from the game, and the series had few, but nice remixes thrown into the game.

There's lots of characters in F-Zero that all could potentially have an interesting moveset, but I think none that are prominent would stand out in any way except Samurai Goroh and he is a swordman, which there's already many of.

I think having Captain Falcon as the really fast, close combat type sort of represents F-Zero's gameplay in its own way.
 
IntelliHeath said:
I'm looking around the forums, but I found the link, and cednym posted the information in other thread.
Click to expand...

I remember the first set of info but the second is new to me, good stuff.
Interesting that Wario as a heavy clone Mario was decided against for him deserving better yet Ganondorf wasn't held back for similar reasons, maybe his mentioned popularity drove that one further.
 
Now that I think about it I kinda want a dating sim mode, if only to see the backlash :p
Remember that Namco made this:

pDARuaC.jpg


Now imagine it with Smash characters. They can even copy Namco and only use characters they don't care about (the Captain Rainbow cast?)

Slate Soda said:
F-Zero wasn't really represented at all.
Click to expand...
It would be neat if we get Blue Falcon as a character.

Crab said:
Sometimes I feel like Sakurai has a massive grudge against Ganondorf.
Click to expand...
When I read the part about Wolf being planned for Smash 64 I felt bad for Ganondorf, then realized that he actually debuted in Ocarina of Time (literally only appeared once before Smash 64).
 
Mista Koo said:
Now that I think about it I kinda want a dating sim mode, if only to see the backlash :p
Remember that Namco made this:

pDARuaC.jpg


Now imagine it with Smash characters. They can even copy Namco and only use characters they don't care about (the Captain Rainbow cast?)
Click to expand...

I still can't believe that this is a thing that exists lol.
 
So, according to the Japanese Wikipedia, Sakurai put R.O.B. in Brawl mainly to include another surprise character in the vein of Mr. Game & Watch. What’s significant about this is that Sakurai used the same phrasing (“tojo no igaisei” — “unexpected appearance”) when discussing Wii Fit Trainer in those Famitsu articles from around E3. It’s long been suspected, but I think we might already have our G&W/R.O.B. of SSB4.
 
EightBitNate said:
Yeah I know there's ZSS, but I've always seen her as more of a transformation than an entirely different rep. I know getting another good character out of Metroid would be hard, but as discussed, there's Ridley. KI only has 1 game in the same period that Metroid has like 8. It would be really unfortunate to see it get snubbed again.
Click to expand...

I mean, as sad as it is, you kinda need to have characters in order to have more playable representation in a game like Smash. Since its inception Metroid has been focused on isolation and exploration, leaving the story and characters on the back of the backseat. The more recent games in the series have really tried to expand on the cast of Metroid characters, but none of them have really succeeded at delivering a character that you could look at without the concession of "well, Metroid does need more representation" and go "that's definitely a character that belongs in Smash." It's at the point where we're looking at the Hunters from the DS game, as if it wasn't a largely insignificant one-off title that has almost surely been forgotten by everyone at Nintendo, even the people who worked on it (I'm just playing, I liked Hunters, but I really feel like it would be a shame if any of those guys got in. They're really nobodies in the grand scheme of things.)

Beyond that you've got the guys from Corruption, who I actually liked, but who still weren't really given enough time and focus to become more than one-off characters. It also doesn't help that (spoiler)
they all get murked in the same game they debuted in...
. So beyond the Hunters the only choices we're left with are Ridley, a random generic enemy from one of the games, some insignificant one-off from Other M and Dark Samus.

Not the best pool. Out of those the only one significant enough that's not larger than the entire rest of the cast combined is Dark Samus, and I would hope that they wouldn't be pushed to throwing in a completely silent "Dark Version" character just to make it seem like Metroid has more "important" characters than it does.

Kid Icarus, on the other hand has a roster with a ton of personality, whose most important members stem from one of Nintendo's earliest games. I don't think anyone beyond Palutena and Medusa (and even she might be a stretch) would ever be seriously considered (sorry Hades), and I can't really imagine the thought process that would lead someone to look at Palutena and go "damn, she took Rundas' slot!" (though I know those people are out there)

That's how the game is played, man. Smash is a character fighter, the more distinct, landmark characters you have the better chances you get for representation. Metroid could have a million games and it wouldn't mean a thing if the only consistent characters continued to be Samus and Ridley.
 
Ryce said:
The WarioWare characters are so peripheral that I couldn't imagine there ever being a second character in Smash Bros. under any circumstance. It's just one of those series that feels adequately represented with a single character. I feel the same way about Animal Crossing, Pikmin, Yoshi, and F-Zero.
Click to expand...

I think Kamek or babio mario team as a Yoshi rep would be great.

Kamek could have a move similar to D3 to throw out shyguys. I think an interesting visual aspect could be that he floats across the ground instead of running across it. He would use his wand for the majority of his attacks, like how almost every olimar move is him attacking with a pikmin in some way, which is maybe a little boring, but I bet they could think of a couple more unique moves for him.

Baby mario team could be an ice climbers clone, utilizing fireballs instead of ice, as well as their hammer attacks.

Or more interestingly, they could have no differentiation between B and A attacks, with B controlling Luigi and A controlling mario, a la Mario & Luigi RPG 2.
 
Just throwing it out there regarding Anthony Higgs:

The Halo and Metroid franchises both originally drew a ton of inspiration from the Alien franchise, and as a result could be seen as taking back-and-forth inspiration from one another. For example Halo's countdown-based escape finale, a darker, bombastic sequel with emphasis on Army troopers and teamwork over Marines (Other M / Halo Reach), etc.

It obviously wasn't planned from the start, but take into consideration one of Halo's most well-known supporting characters is Sgt. Johnson, based on Sgt. Apone from Aliens. They're both no-nonsense, black Marine sergeants, and Johnson in particular is known for mysteriously surviving the original game thanks to a retcon.

In Halo: Combat Evolved, there were only three "Sergeant" Marine bipeds, and as a result Johnson worked his way into a variety of levels despite potentially dying in every one. As an acknowledgement of this, he returned in Halo 2, mysteriously surviving the planetary-level explosion set off on the Halo ring and returning near-unscathed.

So, riddle me this: what if Higgs is Metroid's answer to Sergeant Apone? As a friendly shout-out, they also make Higgs a guy based on an originally no-name, generic trooper, whom survives the destruction of a planet and returns to mysteriously not-die again in a sequel.

It's a stretch, for sure, but I'd buy it.
 
Platy said:
Pokemon Amie is the closest the Pokemon Franchise will come from a Dating Sim
Click to expand...
But this is more like petting your pe- *remembers Jynx and Machoke* ...never mind :X

The Bankslammer said:
Now that the seed has been planted I can't help but picture Smash 3DS having a Life Sim mode like the JP version of Rival Schools in which you create a character (your Mii, I guess) and hang out with Nintendo characters and do other things to affect your stats.

this is a silly idea
Click to expand...
I thought of Rival Schools too, but decided not to mention it. I bought that game (sequel? expansion?), returned it because it wasn't in English :'(
 
leroidys said:
Thanks for posting.

Do we have any Japanese polls that we could look at to try and extrapolate 4 or 5 characters for sm4sh?
Click to expand...

I think Sakurai had already capitalized off of those characters for Melee and Brawl. Some of the other choices were mostly due to recency bias and are totally irrelevant now.
 
Well I'm almost positive Japan doesn't give a crap about two of the most requested characters here in the US, Ridley and Little Mac. Though if Sakurai only gave Japan what they wanted I don't think we would have Sonic. Isn't he like nothing there? Anyway I think they would be for the return of Mewtwo and seeing Palutena. Can't say for sure though, just guessing.
 
Vidiot said:
Though if Sakurai only gave Japan what they wanted I don't think we would have Sonic. Isn't he like nothing there?
Click to expand...
No. Desperate Ridley/Little Mac/Mike Jones/other big-in-America character fans invented the myth that Sonic is unpopular in Japan to fit their narrative that Sakurai cares a lot about America. As shown in the photo above, Sonic ranked 15th in Nintendo Dream's 2012 character poll.
 
Vidiot said:
Well I'm almost positive Japan doesn't give a crap about two of the most requested characters here in the US, Ridley and Little Mac. Though if Sakurai only gave Japan what they wanted I don't think we would have Sonic. Isn't he like nothing there? Anyway I think they would be for the return of Mewtwo and seeing Palutena. Can't say for sure though, just guessing.
Click to expand...

Yeah. I think Palutena and Mewtwo are basically a lock, but then again, reading upthread about how diddy was axed twice in a row makes me think it's not so cut and dry.

I still think that we'll get Little Mac (~70% chance), but I am not holding out much hope for Ridley honestly.

Speaking of Little Mac, how would he hold/use items with his gloves on?
 
Viridi higher in the poll then Palutena. Viridi confirmed for Smash. Palutena for background stage effect.

-----------

Magnus will be playable anyway. Palutena will make her playable debut in Super Bash Sisters.
 
I think a "most popular" Nintendo character list might actually be more significant than a most requested Smash character list in terms of playable choice. That way, your poll isn't from a super specific niche audience.
 
J-Tier said:
I think a "most popular" Nintendo character list might actually be more significant than a most requested Smash character list in terms of playable choice. That way, your poll isn't from a super specific niche audience.
Click to expand...

I'd rather have a worldwide poll. Otherwise it's just a Japan only pop contest.
 
Do they take what overseas fans like into serious consideration? Or is it basically Japan that decides that sort of stuff? Luckily I'm all for Mewtwo and Palutena. I would really like to see Little Mac too though. Ridley I've just kinda given up hope on.

I really hate the waiting game. I just want to know the full roster already.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Super Smash Bros mod adds Nintendo cease and desist letter as playable character
9
214
ecosse_011172 replied
Super Mario Bros. Wonder Switch 2 Edition out in Spring 2026
News 
22
570
Zacfoldor replied
Super Mario Bros Sequel Movie Titled "Super Mario World"
20
999
E-Cat replied
Super Mario Bros CD new demo is out
39
4K
saintjules replied
Borderlands 4 - Reviews Thread
2 3 4
152
2K
Lokaum D+ replied
Top Bottom