Zog
Banned
Just because someone wants sex doesn't mean they think they are owed it.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Sweden to Introduce 'Careless Rape' Law
- Thread starter Dunki
- Start date
Just because someone wants sex doesn't mean they think they are owed it.
Stop making everything about women and their feelings. Men also have feelings. And people who fall into this friendzone stuff are not the asshole types but the sensitive " I do not want to hurt her or move too fast" types.
And yes it is a fucking terrible thing to be just friends with the person you love. No matter if you are a boy or a girl. And all this can be avoided by being more honest with yourself and the person you like/love I have no problems with being friends with women. But the ones I clearly like in a different way I do because of my experience back then.
So yes to save myself from pain I would rather go straight and say romantic or nothing else because I can not bear the emotional pain to be just friends.
PataHikari
Banned
How about you instead not immediately jump to "But what about men's feelings?" when talking about women's issues. Society spends so much more time worrying about how men feel.
Zog
Banned
Friendzone is not a women issue. Rape is not a women issue. These are problem that can hit everyone no matter their gender. And no Society does not give a fuck about mens feeling. They do not care about domestic violence again men they do not care about raped men etc.
Just like you do not care at all.
You did not care about me being molested but instead you tried to blame society for men being awful. You do not care about my feelings which I share with others about Your"friendzone" you just try to blame everything on men and society.
PataHikari
Banned
Society cares a lot about mens feelings. Women are supposed to make men comfortable, so often if they speak up about harassment or sexual assault they are immediately blamed for making them uncomfortable.
This is, also, not the thread for talking about male victims of domestic violence and rape. People that actually care about them (rather then use them as a bludgon to silence talk about women) do know what needs to be done to take care of that problem to.
Turns out that, if you make society care more about women not getting raped and abused, now that it's not longer a degenerate "feminine" thing it's no longer shameful for men to be assaulted so they can be better taken care of to!
That's not what I said and you know it. I said that society did not tell your cousin that she deserved sex, society does tell male rapists they deserve sex.
finowns
Member
How does society tell male rapists they deserve sex?
PataHikari
Banned
Think about all the romance plots that involve a woman rejecting a man and the man, rather then taking no for an answer, keeps on pushing her until she finally falls in love with him by sheer force of his persistance
Think about how often the hero is "rewarded" with a girlfriend.
Think about how often society places the burden of policing men's sexuality on women. How if she's dressed to look attractive then it's her fault men keep coming on to her.
Papa
Banned
That is absolutely not true.
Last Thing I will answer since it is late and I need to sleep.
No they do not and my examples are just examples for it. The be nice to girls no matter what is another one. You want equal treatment? I do treat everyone equal but this also means that you do not get any bonus oppression points from me.
Also I believe that rape is not a women issue and should never be treated as such. So your called "Teaching men not to rape" will do jackshit. It would be like teaching men not to murder. The vast majority of people already know this the ones who not care do it anyway.
And what you said is exactly that you do not blame society when women rape/sexual assault men. These are just bad people. But when men do it its Society which is totally oppressing women, But then mabye you live in Saudi Arabia or Iran so if you do I would apologize and agree but not here in Europe or America.
There is no rape culture in western civilized countries. Just like #Metoo shows it. Or did people actually applaud and encourage the men who were accused and did it? I do not think so. Quite the opposite. I have seen a ton of hate towards men in general than anything else. Even saw people who encouraged to abort babies when they are white and male.
But that it is for me today if you want to discuss this further or want to add something fee free I will answer it tomorrow.
Have a good night.
Zog
Banned
Great post. To add to it, womens issues (or feelings) dominate the gender discussion. Mens issues are all but ignored and as we see in this thread, when mens issues (or feelings) are brought up they are quickly shut down by people claiming that 'this discussion isn't about mens issues, it's about womens issues'.
Have a good night.
PataHikari
Banned
In other words: "I do not know anything about reality or women's issues"
Glad to see you admitted your willful ignorance on the topic.
Oh please.
We both know that you only "care" about male rape victims when people are talking about women's issues. Explicitly to derail and silence discussion on it.
Zog
Banned
How is talking about male rape derailing in a thread about a new rape law?
finowns
Member
I think you're examples are from media which is a narrow topic when talking about ‘society', in reality when a woman rejects a man he doesn't generally keep pursuing her and if he does I don't think society rewards him for this, the opposite might actually be true and rightly so depending on his behavior.
The last point you made I don't necessarily disagree although it is vague on what you mean as ‘coming on to women' isn't ethically wrong or unlawful.
PataHikari
Banned
Fiction is absolutely a mirror of society. The fiction we write reflects and influences social norms.
These were the easiest examples I could think of off the top of my head.
When a woman doesn't want to be hit on but is, if she complains about it it's often excused with making it her fault. Like what she was wearing or asking if she gave them the wrong impression.
SolidusDave
Member
I don't get the written consent being the ultimate security part. You can remove your consent any time, e.g. if something happens during sex that you are not ok with.
Wouldn't that just give rapist a way of getting away with it after tricking someone into signing a form?
But I would be in favour of having additional legal terms for the severity of the case. With everyone shouting rape at everything like "not being ok with not having used a condom in hindsight", the term rape (i.e. with intent, possibly violent) seems to get diluted and trivialized.
Wouldn't that just give rapist a way of getting away with it after tricking someone into signing a form?
But I would be in favour of having additional legal terms for the severity of the case. With everyone shouting rape at everything like "not being ok with not having used a condom in hindsight", the term rape (i.e. with intent, possibly violent) seems to get diluted and trivialized.
Mohonky
Member
Haha, nope. Not anymore.
100+ shootings in Malmö this year.
80+ shootings in Stockholm this year.
Grenade attacks against police and bombs against police stations.
Shooting against a police officers home.
Police men and women quitting in droves.
Not to forget, 3 gang rapes in Malmö in the last months.
¯_(ツ_/¯
How legit are these sources?
Ive heard of much of this but googling doesnt turn up much in English sources.
So I've been on the fence about how accurate some of this is.
Airola
Member
PataHikari doesn't seem to understand that this topic isn't only about heterosexual females being raped by heterosexual males but also about lesbians raping lesbians, hetero females raping hetero males, hetero females raping gay males, gay males raping hetero males, gay males raping gay males and every other combination there exists. It's absolutely not a gender issue. Claiming otherwise is to be ignorant about it. It mostly tells one is fixated on certain sociopolitical topics and can't see further than that for some reason.
AcademicSaucer
Member
If there are no english sources about what happens in a country that doesnt speak english then surely something must be wrong
Mohonky
Member
No but that sort of thing will usually make the international news, many news agencies cover worldwide news.
18 grenades in not many weeks in European country would make news.
That you cant find it anywhere but a few places suggests;
- its being surpressed
- it never actually happen
- its made up propaganda
Ive seen enough stories being pushed with an agenda that I usually look for verification. Being unfamiliar with these sources and not speaking Swedish, I am just curious what tye sources are like.
llien
Member
I got it in my (German) news feed on my galaxy S2 (built in service by Samsung) and can confirm it isn't made up. (will read linked articles now)
It is an actual legislation that will come in power some time next Summer.
Among other changes that were perhaps not mentioned is criminalizing "buying sex" outside of the country. (it is already illegal inside Sweden, selling is not)
Somewhere in Saudi Arabia, perhaps. Are you from place like that?
Forsete
Member
Mainstream media.
Skånska Dagbladet - Local Malmö newspaper
Svenska Dagbladet - Daily newspaper.
Aftonbladet - Swedish tabloid
Nyheter24 - Is a webb based newspaper.
News from the Police
https://twitter.com/polisen_riks/status/943508293489692673
306 shootings in total this year, 41 people have died and 135 have been injured.
At least some good news from Uppsala.
https://twitter.com/polisenuppsala/status/943570219037061123
First of all it has nothing to do with being ignorant. I am fact checking almost everything and I combine it with personal and non personal experiences from men and women of all political spectrums. But truth be told: If I were told every fucking day how dangerous it is to be a women and how scary men are I would also be scared shitless. So I do not even blame you for your conditioning.
But now to the media part. I think it is a pretty lazy argumentation to either blame the media or to think that media is a reflection of our society. It did not work back then with Rock music, it does not work with videogames and it certainly does not work with romance comedy which many men find pretty boring to begin with. (Personally I love them especially Japanese ones)
Media is mostly about taboos and fantasy. Let me give you one example which is fitting to the topic. Let us take a look at romance novels on Amazon written by women for women. Almost everyone of it has a scene in it in which the heroine is in someway forced to have sex. (Not on a brutal or violent way) but in a way of a women losing control over situations. Now let us compare this study which found out that over 50% women have rape fantasies.
Note it is not the article I have read back then but it says the same:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/psyched/200805/why-do-women-have-erotic-rape-fantasies
And I will clearly state that this is FANTASY AND HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH REALITY. Fantasies are often taboos in our society. Be it murder, incest or in this case rape. They do not reflect our society in fact I believe that media like this is our valve to release pressure. For example: If you are angry and you play some Doom or other violent video game to calm down. Same with rape if you have these fantasies you can just watch some rape porn fantasy which is a much better way than to suppress these feeling and then suddenly burst and act it out in reality.
So yes this is where I come from. Media has nothing to do with reality but more with our fantasies and desires.
Yoshi
Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
Persuading is not pressuring.
llien
Member
I'd say, the line where "persuading" ends and "pressuring" starts is blurred.
By widening definition of rape (pressured into coitus against will) one could get to rather surprising results:
Twelve-month sexual victimization prevalence (percentage) among adult population (noninstitutionalized) from the National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey 2010, and among adult and juvenile detainees from the National Inmate Survey 2011–2012
CDC's National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey (NISVS), one of the most comprehensive surveys of sexual victimization conducted in the United States to date found that men and women had a similar prevalence of nonconsensual sex in the previous 12 months (1.270 million women and 1.267 million men) Curiously, life time figures are not on par, women are vicitmized times more often.
CDC NISVS Report
My personal take is, that if my spouse wants it and I don't, I give in, it's not a rape. The same stays if roles are reversed. That is what majority of those 1.27 million women and 1.26 million men have experienced, I think.
Anyhow, if one pushes for wider definition of rape, he/she must also admit that based on government stats it's not a gender issue... at all.
I'd say, the line where "persuading" ends and "pressuring" starts is blurred.
By widening definition of rape (pressured into coitus against will) one could get to rather surprising results:
Twelve-month sexual victimization prevalence (percentage) among adult population (noninstitutionalized) from the National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey 2010, and among adult and juvenile detainees from the National Inmate Survey 2011–2012
CDC's National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey (NISVS), one of the most comprehensive surveys of sexual victimization conducted in the United States to date found that men and women had a similar prevalence of nonconsensual sex in the previous 12 months (1.270 million women and 1.267 million men)
CDC NISVS Report
My personal take is, that if my spouse wants it and I don't, I give in, it's not a rape. The same stays if roles are reversed. That is what majority of those 1.27 million women and 1.26 million men have experienced, I think.
Anyhow, if one pushes for wider definition of rape, he/she must also admit that based on government stats it's not a gender issue... at all.
I agree with this. Furthermore I would add that telling your girlfriend you want to to have sex and if you do not do it I will leave you is also a pretty grey line. For many people sex is plays a huge part in an relationship and is a reason to break up. To ignore this fact is just naive thinking in my opinion. Also its not pressuring that its being put on a woman or man but rather something you have to decide yourself. Be yourself and decide. What I would call rape is trying to make the person you want to have sex with also worthless. Like saying that "you will never get anyone else If I leave you so you better have sex with me"
And Again this has nothing to do with gender. The sex drive of a woman is as high as the one of a man. The only difference is that women are not willing or conditioned to not give into their own desires. Example Slut shaming
Mohonky
Member
Unreal.
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
There's nothing grey about it, it's sheer pressure. And while it may not work well among adults, I've seen it time and again in teenage relations. It's quite ugly.
So what should they do? Should people lie about it that they do not care? I am sorry but I believe that this is not the right way and you should be honest. Especially when we talk about sex. And everyone who comes into such a situation needs to decide on their own what to do. I will agree with you when they try to make you a worthless person for not wanting sex. That is disgusting but otherwise it is ia legimitate relationship problem they have to solve and decide on their own. What we need to do is giving people and especially women the encouragement to do so. Women/girls are often very insecure and we need to solve this rather than treat them carfulley like they could break at any moment. We need to give them the strength so they can decide on their own.
Same with the friendzone part. It is ALWAYS better to tell the truth and how you really feel instead of lying to yourself and the person you love/care about. It may hurt but it is much better than the alternative. And I say this as someone who was in this friendzone for like 2 years.
Zog
Banned
Two things:
1. Yes the word finds its origin here because we see it as a very negative thing. In Countires like Saudi Arabia you do not call it rape you call it marital duties etc.
2. Secondly Why I tottally respect the Feminism of the 70s and see it has something great. 3rd wave femininsm has totally missused this word and made it meaningless because if you call everything sexist, everything rape culture everything homophobic, rcist etc. these lind of words will lose their power and meaning,
And again pleae show me examples of this rape culture. I just heard romantic movies even written by women for women. so whats next? Candy?
And I will say it again. I will fact chek almost everything and I look at sides of ever ypolitical spectrum. I have probably a much better overall picture than you in your echo chamber.
SMOK3Y
Generous Member
Is it because of all the refugees?
It plays certainly a huge role. It seems like your laws were also not prepared for this huge influx of people we also can not deport even if they are shitty people.
Newest case in Mannheim a group of underaged north africans are terrorizing the City and the police feels totally helpless. They know who they are but they can't do shit about it because of our laws.
But I have the feeling that in Europe in general people became sadly more radical and violent. For example we in Germany have more and more cases of people being kicked down Stairs from Underground stations. Emergency personal getting attacked doing their duty etc.
And yes violent sexual assault cases also did raise to a drastically level IMO. But it is not because we encourage rape like some people here want to argue about.
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
Neither pretending to not care nor giving in to the pressure is the right approach. But if sex is the leading bond in somebody's relation then perhaps they should reconsider the relation (more on that below).
Definitely. But if things have reached the 'sleep with me or else' point both parties should reconsider their relationship. As I said, it's much less of an issue in adult couples (who have more experience with relationships) and much more an issue among youngsters, who often face that situation of facing 'being dropped' for not having sex with a new (often first) partner they just got emotionally involved with. And let's be clear: the behavior in this scheme _is_ often predatory, as it gives the demanding side the leverage to get sex and still drop the other party and move on to the next relation, where they repeat the same scheme (yes, seen that on multiple occasions).
While I agree with you in principle, teenagers (where these issues most often occur) are a tough bunch to instil confidence in. Apropos, teenage boys are equally (if not more so) insecure than teenage girls, and the 'she will sleep with me or else' attitude is a sheer reflection of young boys' insecurities.
Friendzones are indeed a similar issue. There the 'shall I continue to suffer through this or just break up altogether' dilemma is of equal validity. Again, as with the previous issue, being honest with the other party is a mandatory first step.
I don't know, it really depends how much it strained you emotionally. But I never made that conjecture. My position here is that pressing the other side into unwanted sex particularly in an ongoing relation can be a major factor for straining that relation, or an outright indication that the relation is on the wrong foot, to boot.
Relativ9
Member
Seems a bit wishy-washy though. If it depends on how the victim "handles" it then how is the "guilty" party supposed to know if he's committing a crime or just being particularly convincing, human being are notoriously bad at reading other peoples intent or emotions, especially men. And it gets even worse when those emotions can develop after the fact. How are we supposed to make laws around that? Can we punish and potentially ruin people's lives of what essentially amounts to "accidental rape" (if that could even be a thing).
(to clarify: I'm not saying you believe it should be illegal, and I definitely agree that it indicates a healthy relationship. But it does seem like some people in this thread would consider it rape, or they might if it was a man doing it to a woman.)
Oh I agree with most of this but I also believe that Sex is plays a huge factor in a healthy relationship and that honesty will pay out in the end for both parties involved. As young boy your sex drive is pretty high and yes you want to have sex as fast as possible (most boys) but I do not think that it is different with girls if they would be "allowed" to feel like that. AKA Slut-shaming as one example. I personally Think that we often suppress the sex drive of teenage girls. And I also think we put way too much importance to the the "first time". Just let it happen if you think you want to. We just need to make sure that teens know how to protect themselves. Condom, pill etc.
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
Yes, that's all there's is to rape - the emotional state of the alleged victim at the moment of the sexual act. The absence of consent is just the outside indicator used by external agents (society included) to judge if that "subjective and unpredictable" situation *might* have been the case. People have been raped without uttering a word of discontent or otherwise -- one of the reasons such things as 'age of consent' exist in the first place. Welcome to planet Earth.
Nah, chances for that are extremely slim, I'm good. Thank you for your concern, though.
Hopefully they don't, banks can be quite vindictive.
Power dynamics play a HUGE role in what you are saying. If someone feeld pressured into doing something they don't want to do it is a problem. Especially if its someone with power over them in some way.
And yes you can rape your wife/husband/gf. If they never stated or gave you the normal human cues they were down then you had sex without their consent. Again since this seems to be coming to a comsent thing:
https://youtu.be/oQbei5JGiT8
D
Deleted member 713885
Unconfirmed Member
This is the dumbest shit I've read in this thread.
Society gives zero fuck about the feelings of men. Its in fact a problem with young boys and men.
Look at suicide rates.Look at stats showing how alone men are..how having friends for men after 30 is rare.
We are trained not to feel. We are trained that a woman likes a man that is her rock, can bare the storm and be stoic. And we have little to no outlet to vent, to feel.
The Hermit
Member
Welp, there goes the dream of banging Sweden girls.
LightofRohan
Member
I just think they should make rape and molestation illegal, so we can finally all have rights.
When will people just realize we are all just giant apes with this insane sexual side to all of us and trying to govern it with politics does not work. Either go to a signed-paper sex initiation or stop doing these open weird pseudo laws.
Until we have a Minority Report system in place, these laws are always going to have to just be case by case and a rigorous difficult thing to discern.
When will people just realize we are all just giant apes with this insane sexual side to all of us and trying to govern it with politics does not work. Either go to a signed-paper sex initiation or stop doing these open weird pseudo laws.
Until we have a Minority Report system in place, these laws are always going to have to just be case by case and a rigorous difficult thing to discern.
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
I don't think accidental rape is a thing. Surely, morning-after regret is a thing. But that should not be a basis for legalizing 'accidental rape'. Actual rape is a thing, though, and people can normally tell when they're unwanted. The normal behaviour is if unsure, don't go for it. 'They kinda sorta showed me for a sec they liked me.. I think. So I pressed on till I got mine' _is_ a problematic behaviour. And alcohol is not an excuse either (it never is) -- so 'I accidentally fucked the person, but I was drunk' does not excuse the drunk sides.
I think laws that allow victims to report the crime indefinitely late after the fact, but still expect investigation to prove the guilt of the accused are the normal way to go. This whole 'we slept together, but I forgot to obtain my partner's written consent -- oops' is pushing things way too far, and that only means ineffectiveness of the law.
Oh, I never questioned the role of sex in a healthy relationship -- actually I think that because of its huge importance that asymmetrical conditions can ruin an otherwise good relationship. I also don't think 'first time' accounts for anything, but I do think that the age at which young people are introduced to sex is of utmost importance for their further life. Sex requires a certain level of maturity in the practitioners, otherwise there's not limit to the bad events that can stem. In this respect, yes, sex education is crucial.
No.
Good point
llien
Member
After brilliant idea of "teaching not to rape" inevitably delivers results, could we then switch to "teaching not to kill" to, you know, stop the killings as well.
I don't think people pushing for these laws really want to solve the issue. "Raising awareness" can get you far, actual fix could mean losing your job. Some of such jobs (again, Sweden) are quite unusual.
I don't think people pushing for these laws really want to solve the issue. "Raising awareness" can get you far, actual fix could mean losing your job. Some of such jobs (again, Sweden) are quite unusual.
Yeah this is why it makes no sense. People will not stop doing this. I do not know how it is in America but in Europe the vast majority knows that murder and rape are bad things.