I know how it is. Keep on the grind man.
This is the coolest thing I did while getting my ass kicked.
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TEKKEN 7 |OT| How I killed your mother
- Thread starter miku
- Start date
This is the coolest thing I did while getting my ass kicked.
Link
Un-freakin-believable.
I just read the description on youtube and the DLC includes the following:
Blood Vengeance School Uniforms (for Xiaoyu & Alisa)
Swimsuits (All female fighters)
Vintage 1920s bathing suits
Idol Master themed outfits (All female fighters)
Traditional Japanese Fundoshi (All male fighters)
Still no BV costume for Nina and all of this ish was already on the arcade version. Looks like they're gonna charge it as DLC to console owners despite all of this being pre-developed content. I hate Tekken 7's release and DLC model with the burning fury of a thousand suns. This game deserves to be a failure and its commercial success is going to make matters worse for future iterations. Am I overreacting?
Nah, I was pretty tired at that point and was going to quit when one of us got promoted so I quit. Still my best experience so far in the game.
GrayFoxPL
Member
All these lose quits and winquits happening against me. Chimone brewsss. At least best 2 out of 3
Your green rank and my green rank is unimpressive. It's not worth preserving lol
If you demolish dude 3 - 0 it's bound to happen. It's risky but sometimes you may as well give out 3rd round to pump some confidence in the opponent. Not to bait and cheat, but confident people play 10 times better than dishearten ones.
https://twitter.com/jchensor/status/901028599708344321
I really wish people in his position wouldn't spread this sort of fear mongering. He's a huge proponent of Guilty Gear, a game which demands even more knowledge compared to Tekken.
Tekken 7 always was a copy & paste job that is even more egregious than MvC:I. I had my moments of reacting. Now, I'm at the point where it's very safe to predict how Namco will handle their Tekken releases. It is what it is but I still love the core gameplay so I just have to deal with it.
I really wish people in his position wouldn't spread this sort of fear mongering. He's a huge proponent of Guilty Gear, a game which demands even more knowledge compared to Tekken.
Tekken 7 always was a copy & paste job that is even more egregious than MvC:I. I had my moments of reacting. Now, I'm at the point where it's very safe to predict how Namco will handle their Tekken releases. It is what it is but I still love the core gameplay so I just have to deal with it.
I agree, I'll say that that list of DLC costumes seems oddly arbitrarily picked and random. Two costumes from Blood Vengeance and not any other ones.
Vintage 1920's bathing suits...yeah, most of this stuff seems really random to me and none of those are more classic costumes. Hell, they never even released the PS4 exclusive costumes to PC or XBOX ONE either.
SquirrelSoup
Member
I like the guy a lot, but he has 20+ years of experience in 2D fighting games. Obviously other 2D fighting games are going to be much easier to get into than something slightly outside that pocket.
Maybe he's finally found out for himself how truly new people feel trying to get into the games he plays.
-Any- fighting game is hard as hell once you start taking it seriously.
Human Trashcan
Banned
I kinda see where James is coming from. This game is crazy deep and matchup knowledge is everything and every character has 1800 moves and movement is nuts. But you don't have to learn everything all at once.
I 100% agree on the throw break thing though, having to learn specific throw breaks on a per-character basis is fucking ridiculous.
I 100% agree on the throw break thing though, having to learn specific throw breaks on a per-character basis is fucking ridiculous.
There's very few throws with unique breaks in the game. We're talking like five outside of King? It's easier than ever to break throws.
Here's my thing. Is James complaining because he's not instantly amazing at Tekken 7? Or is he legitimately just really bad at the game and he's getting frustrated? (as in I cant make it out of 3rd dan bad). At his level, unless he's facing people that already know how to play Tekken well, I doubt he's facing people that are constantly mixing up cmd throws and forcing him to pick the correct throw to break.
Tekken 7 is pretty much my first 3D fighter and from my progress I wouldnt say it's more difficult than guilty gear or blazblue at all. In fact, Id say Ive progressed at a faster rate in Tekken 7 than I ever did playing Guilty Gear. And I know James isnt above my level, because if he was the complaining makes even less sense.
At the end of the day its all about the time you put in and your commitment level. At the same time though, James has done this before. I remember him always getting frustrated at xrd and how he couldnt properly learn it because he would keep getting his ass kicked by better players.
Tekken 7 is pretty much my first 3D fighter and from my progress I wouldnt say it's more difficult than guilty gear or blazblue at all. In fact, Id say Ive progressed at a faster rate in Tekken 7 than I ever did playing Guilty Gear. And I know James isnt above my level, because if he was the complaining makes even less sense.
At the end of the day its all about the time you put in and your commitment level. At the same time though, James has done this before. I remember him always getting frustrated at xrd and how he couldnt properly learn it because he would keep getting his ass kicked by better players.
I can truly emphasize with James here on this one. Unfortunately, he's also going to have to realize that this kind of experience is what a lot of people go through with EVERY fighting game if they're trying to seriously get into it.
It also sucks that out of all Tekken games, it had to be this one that didn't have any kind of tutorial. Sure, you don't have to go the information overload route like GG (and I say this but still feel that GG has a damn good tutorial), but you could go do something like VF4 where even the AI ramps up while the game teaches you how to play the game.
Personally, if I didn't see Aris's videos beforehand to temper my expectations and goals, I don't know how much I would have kept playing this as a Tekken newbie.
It also sucks that out of all Tekken games, it had to be this one that didn't have any kind of tutorial. Sure, you don't have to go the information overload route like GG (and I say this but still feel that GG has a damn good tutorial), but you could go do something like VF4 where even the AI ramps up while the game teaches you how to play the game.
Personally, if I didn't see Aris's videos beforehand to temper my expectations and goals, I don't know how much I would have kept playing this as a Tekken newbie.
lucebuce12
Member
I'll repost what I posted in the FGH thread.
"Tekken 7 is a VERY frustrating entry point into the Tekken series unless you've got people that are willing to help you with every single step.
There's a LOT of things to keep in mind, a lot of things to discover and a VERY high skill ceiling. All of that wouldn't be so bad, if the game at least tries to teach you the basics and the mechanics of the game but it doesn't. The only "tutorial" in the game are the loading screen tips.
I started learning Tekken proper with T7 and it would have been a miserable experience that probably would have turned me away from the game were it not for the very helpful community, and guides made by people like Rip and Aris.
The game should at least bother to teach you BASIC things if not matchup specific things. It should teach you how to break throws, how high/mid/low attacks work, the "components" that are found in a regular combo, how many options you have while waking up, how you can punish those wakeup options, how best to utilize sidesteps, etc. Even just going the cheap route and having pre-made videos in the game teaching you this stuff would've worked. They already made a tutorial series on Youtube featuring members from the community for TTT2, I really don't get why they couldn't do that again.
Even the "titty engine fighting game", DoA5, teaches you most of this stuff."
"Tekken 7 is a VERY frustrating entry point into the Tekken series unless you've got people that are willing to help you with every single step.
There's a LOT of things to keep in mind, a lot of things to discover and a VERY high skill ceiling. All of that wouldn't be so bad, if the game at least tries to teach you the basics and the mechanics of the game but it doesn't. The only "tutorial" in the game are the loading screen tips.
I started learning Tekken proper with T7 and it would have been a miserable experience that probably would have turned me away from the game were it not for the very helpful community, and guides made by people like Rip and Aris.
The game should at least bother to teach you BASIC things if not matchup specific things. It should teach you how to break throws, how high/mid/low attacks work, the "components" that are found in a regular combo, how many options you have while waking up, how you can punish those wakeup options, how best to utilize sidesteps, etc. Even just going the cheap route and having pre-made videos in the game teaching you this stuff would've worked. They already made a tutorial series on Youtube featuring members from the community for TTT2, I really don't get why they couldn't do that again.
Even the "titty engine fighting game", DoA5, teaches you most of this stuff."
Id understand if this was a random poster in here, but this is James we're talking about. This dude has resources everywhere. I wish I had the amount of resources he potentially has access to.
I feel like this is just James being James. I remember he did the same thing with xrd about 6 months ago or so when he was learning Johhny and got really frustrated that he couldnt learn the game properly because he kept getting his ass kicked online.
I feel like this is just James being James. I remember he did the same thing with xrd about 6 months ago or so when he was learning Johhny and got really frustrated that he couldnt learn the game properly because he kept getting his ass kicked online.
lucebuce12
Member
Oh yeah, James is definitely overblowing it. It's tough to get into but it's not like you're left in a desert alone with an arcade stick and an internet connection connected to a PS4, James definitely KNOWS a lot of Tekken vets that can help him out.
But the lack of basic tutorials is a fault with the game that really irked me the wrong way.
But the lack of basic tutorials is a fault with the game that really irked me the wrong way.
Ya no tutorials is whack(along with a bunch of other things), but I do think the game is pretty simple to get started with once you have an idea of the basic mechanics.
I still feel like Namco looked at Combot from TTT2 and how it wasnt as good as advertised and instead of iterating on it and learning from their mistakes, they just decided that no one wants tutorials so they gutted it completely.
.
I only played treasure battle once in the first week. I found it extremely boring and tedious. Loading times on consoles aren't helping either.
I need to play ranked more
Namco still in that japanese arcade mentality.Tekken needs these things and with 7 they lowered the entry bar and simplified the game for this purpose. But not go for the actual step of teaching people these ?
TheSpoiler
Member
I think movement is the biggest issue that I and other people stumble with. Fight Lab had something that covered it, right? I don't remember, honestly. But a mode like that would do wonders. Even a piddly thing like SFV is worth something because it exists.
Tekken definitely needs a tutorial, but that reaction is a little overblown, especially coming from a GG player. It's okay to be frustrated and vent sometimes, but people with an audience as big as these players shouldn't give people the wrong idea.
Here's my player info by the way:
Current goal is to hit 2.000 matches
Good games GrayFoxPL. Haven't had a set this long with you in a long time. Your Paul still gives me a headache. And my Steve definitely needs some work.
Here's my player info by the way:
Current goal is to hit 2.000 matches
Good games GrayFoxPL. Haven't had a set this long with you in a long time. Your Paul still gives me a headache. And my Steve definitely needs some work.
TheSpoiler
Member
Is he really giving people the wrong idea when it's been a pervasive attitude towards the game in general?
It's giving the people the wrong idea if you pretend like someone who hasn't followed the series for 20 years shouldn't even attempt to learn the game. Tekken is nowhere near as hard as people make it out to be. It's pretty easy to grasp the idea of how to play Tekken. You have to put in the necessary hours to improve at the game, but if you're not planning to reach tournament level you should be pretty satisfied with your progress over time.
I'm not going to defend the lack of a tutorial. That is unacceptable.
Now this is something that I overlooked entirely, thought about it, and was like "well shit, I can barely get my friends to play ANY fighter these days because it takes too much time and we don't have infinite time after work like we did when we were in high school spending entire days on CvSNK 2 or GGXX or Third Strike"; Chen literally has the best of any of the community on speed dial.
GrayFoxPL
Member
I had a hunch someone will show up today so I started T7 later and there you come!
Good games! It wasn't that long, I had close to 50 match session with Squirrel once.
I wish I could play Kaz as freely and easily as Paul, I'm afraid he'll never be there. He requires so much more muscle work and energy and my fingers can't move any faster at this point. Like I know the wavedash motion but my max ability is very slow wavedash so I don't use it because I don't want ppl laugh at me, plus it's a huge waste of energy for me.
Your Hwo and Ling are way beyond anything I encountered in Ranked so far. Just crazy well rounded fighters. Hard to catch, hard to hit and your punishes cost me 60% of the bar at least. I appreciate the experience, after fighting yours, other Lings and Hwo's will not be scary. Thanks.
Good games Doomshine. Sorry for short session(well 12 fights is not so short) but you caught me on the last fight of the day. I'd be great if you could jump in sooner someday. I could fight you with some reserves in the tank.
At the last fight I wanted to finish juggle with an rage art but forgot it was 1+2 and not b+1+2 and did stupid parry XD. But that dramatic rage drive was hilarious last hurrah. Never thought it'd hit.
FormallyFamicom
Member
I've had salt breakdowns playing Tekken like James Chen did this morning all of the time. Come close to quitting, questioning life, etc. Then I sleep it off and do it all over again the next day. He'll do the same, because this is how we're wired.
Tekken is a hard ass game. I'm not going to get into battles about where it ranks relative to other fighting games, but by itself it's hard. If your intention is to get good, thousands of hours awaits you. A new hobby awaits you. Frustration awaits you. Hopefully also lots of fun and reward.
Tekken is a hard ass game. I'm not going to get into battles about where it ranks relative to other fighting games, but by itself it's hard. If your intention is to get good, thousands of hours awaits you. A new hobby awaits you. Frustration awaits you. Hopefully also lots of fun and reward.
GrayFoxPL
Member
Yeah it can be very emotional. I never thought of quitting but I'm sometimes furious on myself for my decisions. "Falling for that low 4 times in a row?! Am I that fucking stupid?!" or "-15 move at the end of a round. I'm a fucking genius." ect.
When unexpectedly everything works though:
Kazuya is exhausting. Especially when you try whiff punishing with EWGF. My thumbs always hurt after playing Mishimas
Thanks man. I don't consider myself a decent Ling player to be honest. Most Ling players go ham with her and pressure the opponent non-stop, yet I play her like I play the Mishimas, trying to maintain my spacing, whiff punish and go low occasionally. I use my fundamentals to win instead of utilizing my character's strengths. I definitely have to keep working on her.
My Hwoarang on the other hand seems better than he ever was in TTT2. I finally feel like people are afraid of him. I also practiced punishing sweeps with a delayed hopkick instead of WS+3. I also use u/b+3,3 instead of WS+3 after ducking a move. Makes my opponents way more hesitant to use these types of moves against me.
TheSpoiler
Member
That's not what he said. He said Tekken was hard to learn without a tutorial. He wanted to be viable at the game, and he was missing concepts because the game didn't teach him. He was going overboard, but conceptually, he's right. He never told people to stop playing the game, or that it's too hard to get into and people should never try. Just that it's difficult to be good a the game. He's not wrong.
SquirrelSoup
Member
Sure, until you get to the bit where Tekken is hard while other games are easy. That's simply wrong.
Every fighting game is hard. 3D games are a little bit extra hard if all you've played is 2D games. But it goes the other way too, 2D games are a little bit extra hard if all you've ever played is 3D games.
Let's not pretend Tekken has some special sauce that makes it super hard to get into compared to other games. Yeah, the lack of a tutorial is a travesty in this day and age. I wish it was different but that ship has sailed.
But compared to a trash tutorial like, say, SF5's the difference isn't that large. You'll have to do basically all of the work by yourself anyway. An experienced fighting game player like James Chen had to do this back in the day for -all- games, why is it suddenly so soul-crushing?
Edit: I think he just had a salty meltdown and needed to vent btw. Everyone needs that at some point. God knows i've needed to. A lot.
GrayFoxPL
Member
No, man your Ling is smart. If you'd played full offense like any other Lings I encountered you'd lost because I already know that style and I'm used to it. People are rushing in and get killed by Kaz's ff+4 or df+2. While they are turning around in your face d+1 into ws+1,2 launches them every time. Your style will pay off way more for you in the long run. The way you pace the fight throws me out of my rhythm and others too. If someone plays in one certain rhythm, sooner or later I can predict when he's gonna go for something and throw a counter earlier.
Yeah, Hwo is a beast here. It's interesting how one move can change character. I'm talking about das boot ff+4. I tried matching every move against it, don't think I've ever won. That situation when both players are dancing in the middle of arena and decide to go for a ff+something move at the same time to push opponent back - I always lose that exchange. Even if I try Kaz's far reaching ff+2 14 frames, I lose to 17 frame Das Boot. I don't know if it somehow protects Hwo's hurtbox but this thing just murders everything in it's path.
TheSpoiler
Member
The soul-crushing bit is from him wanting to learn more about the game, not that he game was TOO hard. I think people are catching feelings on the fact that he said it's a hard game to learn, and to be fair, homeboy could for sure look up material.
But you are right. A fighting game isn't inherently harder to learn than another one. I think Tekken takes a little more to learn than other games for some fighting game people because the movement system is so important. I don't mind him calling out Tekken for lacking a means to directly practice movement, or that it'll be difficult because the game doesn't have a tutorial for which anyone can dabble in (yeah, SFV's tutorial is shit, but it covers a lot of concepts about the game without fail - the demostrations go over even things like spacing and different move properities. Really wish they would let the person take control) compared to other titles like GG, VF4 EVO (the gold standard), or whatever. Even trials help people learn the timing and some combos. But as a game, it's not more difficult than most for a newbie.
Then again, I read his clarified statements after the fact, so if you just watched his stream, he could have come off a certain way.
Yeah he went on Twitter later and stated it was he who needed to look up stuff since he should be a vet at itneracting with fighting game stuff by now. To be fair, the same could be said of a lot of games. Even SF, though simpler than before, had me question shit like how am I not doing my spacing correctly and yadda yadda. And don't get me started on Gundam, who teaches you a little bit but doesn't even have a fucking practice mode so you just have to hold that against cheap stuff and hope you learn in each encounter.
SquirrelSoup
Member
I do think -different things- are hard in Tekken compared to some other games, and as a player you might have more trouble with those things than with the stuff that is hard in certain other games.
Like, maybe Tekken is harder to learn for you because you're trash at memorization and having to execute techniques to move around. Those things are tough in Tekken but much less so in certain other games. And then there's games that are super frakking fast so if you don't have good reactions you're going to get rocked, or have really hard combo execution to get anywhere... Tekken doesn't require -as much- in those areas.
(Personally i've found Tekken to be one of the easiest games to get into on a basic level. Because my reactions and execution are trash but i'm good at memorizing stuff and labbing little details. But of course the road is endless and there's tons of really hard shit along the way, as always. )
But overall i guess i'm just not a fan of the 'game X is too hard, not like game Y'. That just serves to drive people away needlessly.
As someone looking to newly get into Gundam when it comes out, welp. Please don't judge me too harshly when i explode at some later stage.
Like, maybe Tekken is harder to learn for you because you're trash at memorization and having to execute techniques to move around. Those things are tough in Tekken but much less so in certain other games. And then there's games that are super frakking fast so if you don't have good reactions you're going to get rocked, or have really hard combo execution to get anywhere... Tekken doesn't require -as much- in those areas.
(Personally i've found Tekken to be one of the easiest games to get into on a basic level. Because my reactions and execution are trash but i'm good at memorizing stuff and labbing little details. But of course the road is endless and there's tons of really hard shit along the way, as always. )
But overall i guess i'm just not a fan of the 'game X is too hard, not like game Y'. That just serves to drive people away needlessly.
As someone looking to newly get into Gundam when it comes out, welp. Please don't judge me too harshly when i explode at some later stage.
TheSpoiler
Member
It would be helpful if people helped other people learn more effectively. I've thought about that concept and how breaking things down differently depending on where someone's come from would be a better approach than just "HERES STUFF LEARN IT". I almost dropped Tekken but swung back around after realizing I can just slowly devote time each day towards learning concepts I'm having trouble with. I feel like fighting game players just get dumped on with tons of information and don't know how to put it in compartments, thereby getting overwhelmed.
It depends on the game, too. Gundam makes it more difficult because, to train, you either have to let a friend beat up on you 1v1 in terms of learning counters and timings to knockdowns or you have to hope you fight what you've been having issues with. It's not as big of a deal like in SFV or Tekken, but it's still difficult. Gundam isn't too hard though - in fact, coming from a 3D space and understanding how movement = defense is a fantastic start, one I didn't really get. Plus your loss percentage can be like 50 percent and you'd be considered going great lol
Anyway, I dropped Hei for a little bit and when to simpler times with Paul. Not going to quit Hei for a while, but just running Paul while I learn to EWGF and get the hang of him. I have some legacy with Paul so it was easy to jump to him. I still have Drag on deck, and I'll never go back to Jack again. Fuck that robot.
SquirrelSoup
Member
Yeah.. It's just really tough to know what someone is having trouble with specifically if you haven't played them yourself, and being a good player definitely doesn't mean you're a good teacher too.
A competitive environment may also get in the way, what with the salt making it hard to listen to advice plus that nagging feeling that you're a failure for having to ask about stuff-everyone-knows-about.
For me personally though, i've found the Tekken community super helpful whenever i've had questions. Tekkengaf has helped me level up a ton in the past two years.
Phoenix RISING
Banned
Demoted.
Giving up on Kaz for awhile. Lots of work, little reward. Boring tbqh. The most exciting things about him is how he flies in pre-fight (which he rarely does), and how he picks up people with one hand (like Gigas) after. Super unfun when grandmaster-level ppl are doing low parties on his hellsweep and d/b+4 THE FIRST TIME YOU DO IT but of course they're Grand Master so they don't know any followups.
Spent 15 minutes goofing around with Raven in practice, and she's infinitely more fun. Will be spending time with her in the lab as I don't know much about her. She's also super rare Online. I might have played against 5-10 of them.
Giving up on Kaz for awhile. Lots of work, little reward. Boring tbqh. The most exciting things about him is how he flies in pre-fight (which he rarely does), and how he picks up people with one hand (like Gigas) after. Super unfun when grandmaster-level ppl are doing low parties on his hellsweep and d/b+4 THE FIRST TIME YOU DO IT but of course they're Grand Master so they don't know any followups.
Spent 15 minutes goofing around with Raven in practice, and she's infinitely more fun. Will be spending time with her in the lab as I don't know much about her. She's also super rare Online. I might have played against 5-10 of them.
MikeBreezy92
Member
Thing is though, there are no basics to really teach in Tekken that don't immediately get more complex. A tutorial from Namco would be useless.
Thank you. I met some guy on ranked yesterday who had a promotion match to Juggernaut with his D.Jin. he was a really good player and I had to work hard to open him up with Ling. I beat him and thought he'd decline a rematch because I took away his promotion. He accepted though and we continued playing a few matches. He forced me to approach him in quite a few different ways in order to open him up, otherwise he adjusted really quick. Learned a lot by playing him. I'm still not sure how much time I should ultimately put into Ling, but I have the most fun with matches like those, so it's definitely worth it.
Z
ZelbZelb
Unconfirmed Member
Okay, as long as I'm not the only one like this. Sometimes I wonder about myself...
I picked Violet back up because I just can't stay away...
Right now I'm working on bringing back his oki game into the mix, even if it means doing a little bit less combo damage.
u/f+4 > 4,u3 > b1,1f~n > 213 > run up > f+4,3 = 58 damage and spikes on the ground.
It seems to take the opponent longer to hold back than if I flop them over with, say 211.
From there dash in d+4,43 will counter hit the low, mid, and spring kicks. d+4,4,u+3 will combo on the spring kick, opening up more oki. Toe kick will beat this out.
If you want to bait out all wake-up attacks, Mist Step forward, and if you see an attack, backsway and punish with backsway 4, or launch the spring kick.
If they are in the habit of just holding back, dash in an you have enough time for d/b+3+4,
or f+1+2, something beefy like that, just be sure it has enough range so they can't backdash out of it after waking up.
If the opponent presses up, they'll get up fast enough to counter those beefy moves, though, so other moves are in order.
ending a combo with WS2,3 also gives good oki, from what I've seen.
I hate, HATE WS2,3 > ff+3. It cost me so many clutch rounds. If only it auto tail-spined for a small combo. Right now I'm practicing to see which moves I can punish with WSu/f+4 (flip kick) instead. This is probably the most frustrating thing playing him for me right now.
I've been experimenting on using CHd+4,43 to stuff power crushes. We'll see if that goes over well.
Phoenix RISING
Banned
Agreed. BUT there's no way to find out stuff like breaking throws except online.
Some even basic stuff is not too much to ask.
GrayFoxPL
Member
Yeah the difficulty of this is annoying to say the least. I can do it in practice mode after some tries but online? Nah. In Revo you could reliably combo ws+2,3 into df+3+4 because that move was super fast and reaching. They took that move in 7 and turned it into b+3+4 pretty shitty armor move that's been slowed down about 3 times compared to original.
SquirrelSoup
Member
How to beat Paul Phoenix, a neat beginner-focused vid that may be of some use to folks.
Human Trashcan
Banned
I've got 45 hours in this game according to Steam and I haven't touched story mode
MikeBreezy92
Member
And online is the best resource so I'm not seeing the problem?
I'm gonna say it like this, Namco isn't competent enough to make a tutorial that won't overwhelm or be too basic (like fight lab). The people clamoring for a tutorial will just be dejected and go online like they always have.
TheSpoiler
Member
The FGC communities online are pretty good, NeoGAF especially. I usually lurk for Tekken but I'm starting to get back into it.
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