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[Ourobolus]

Okay, please make sure both Kark and MattyG look over it before you get too attached. I can't look myself, but I am rather wary about role madness games at this stage. That's not a no, but I'll feel more comfortable if I know both of them are okay with it.

I think it is balanced relatively well. Probably could use some more tweaking, but he's on the right track. I think it would be fine for newbies too.

I disagree, especially later in the game when subtracting a player entirely makes an enormous difference. Imagine how annoyed you'd have been if say, RNH had gone inactive on the penultimate AC day. The entirety of town would then have lost for a reason completely outside of their control and it would have made much of the game simply pointless. Yes, there are difficulties reading replacement players, but there are also benefits - if you found both preplacement and replacement suspicious, then that's extra evidence against them, for example.

Also, this is, at the end of the day, just an internet game. At the point people are willing to flake out without telling anybody, they (presumably) don't really care if their team wins or not, so mod-killing that role does nothing incentive-wise.

I think in the case of late game, I'd rather let the game go on as normal rather than seeking a replacement. I know it isn't ideal, but subbing in at the last second of a game is also a bad move because that person has to catch up and figure things out and it's a disadvantage in another way.

I would hope that no one would be as daft as to leave so late in the game though, barring an emergency, and at that point I think we all would appreciate an alert so the mod could append time onto the phase appropriately.

 

[Ourobolus]

As for the "activity after a vote has been called," I think the rule of thumb should be-

1. Votes after the deadline DO NOT count. I like Kark's timer and using GAF time stamps for that.
2. No drive-by ghosting unless the moderator has come in and at least said "day is over, results coming soon."

 

[Deleted member 231381]

As a compromise option, what about informing players who volunteer to be late-game replacements that it is a lot of effort, more than simply joining from the start is, and pausing the game for a small period of time to allow them to fully read the thread and ask the moderator any relevant questions?

 

[Deleted member 231381]

As for the "activity after a vote has been called," I think the rule of thumb should be-

1. Votes after the deadline DO NOT count. I like Kark's timer and using GAF time stamps for that.
2. No drive-by ghosting unless the moderator has come in and at least said "day is over, results coming soon."

Agreed with both, particularly ghosting being restricted to between moderator saying "day end" and actually posting the result, rather than just when the timer runs out.

 

[Haly]

I say we should start Crab off with a yellow card for this unseemly behavior.

As the ur-Moderator of MafiaGAF, I expect better.

crabhelmet: actual feedback
crabhelmet: you wanker

 

[CzarTim]

I disagree, especially later in the game when subtracting a player entirely makes an enormous difference. Imagine how annoyed you'd have been if say, RNH had gone inactive on the penultimate AC day. The entirety of town would then have lost for a reason completely outside of their control and it would have made much of the game simply pointless. Yes, there are difficulties reading replacement players, but there are also benefits - if you found both preplacement and replacement suspicious, then that's extra evidence against them, for example.

Also, this is, at the end of the day, just an internet game. At the point people are willing to flake out without telling anybody, they (presumably) don't really care if their team wins or not, so mod-killing that role does nothing incentive-wise.

Mod killing is not meant to incentivise the offending players to play, it's meant to make it fair for the players actually playing. If someone bails at the end, I'd literally rather lose the game than make a new player read 3,000 posts and expect them to make a good judgment call and/or expect the remaining player judge the new player properly.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Mod killing is not meant to incentivise the offending players to play, it's meant to make it fair for the players actually playing. If someone bails at the end, I'd literally rather lose the game than make a new player read 3,000 posts and expect them to make a good judgment call and/or expect the remaining player judge the new player properly.

Yeah, I just disagree fundamentally on that proposition. A player death is absolutely huge. If it's the wrong person, it has gigantic consequences for how the game plays out. In my opinion, the unfairness that stems from a de facto random killing of a role that happens independently of how anyone has actually played is a much, much larger unfairness than that of a replacement being difficult to read/finding reads difficult. I've seen some really good replacements that kept the spirit of the game going. I can't think of many times I've seen a modkill do that.

As I said, this is ultimately your mafia community and I am willing to be overruled on this one - I'll put it to a vote if you want. Nevertheless, I staunchly oppose it given my prior experience moderating mafia games.

 

[RetroMG]

As a compromise option, what about informing players who volunteer to be late-game replacements that it is a lot of effort, more than simply joining from the start is, and pausing the game for a small period of time to allow them to fully read the thread and ask the moderator any relevant questions?

Yes, definitely. I think I would have played better if I had been in from the beginning. There was one night in particular where I went through the entire thread three times trying to figure out as much as I could about Toma, Darryl, and Nin. My brain then turned into mush.

I also agree with Crab about not mod-killing , however. Being a replacement is hard, but so worth it.

 

[Ourobolus]

I understand the concern. Hence my stipulation that as long as the mod/thread is alerted to the fact that someone has to bail, a replacement can be found.

But a person going inactive at a crucial point in the game without a reason is a detriment to both sides. Maybe not necessarily a "mod-kill" so much as letting the game play out without their presence.

 

[CzarTim]

As for the "activity after a vote has been called," I think the rule of thumb should be-

1. Votes after the deadline DO NOT count. I like Kark's timer and using GAF time stamps for that.
2. No drive-by ghosting unless the moderator has come in and at least said "day is over, results coming soon."

I also feel like we need to make it clear if you can make game content after getting voted out. Like I don't really like the idea of (hypothetically) blarg claiming cop and clearing worthy AFTER the majority vote was reached, and I don't like that traube was able to "clear" redhood after time ran out (not that it mattered.) It didn't really affect our games this time, but I just feel like actual game content should not be allowed once a person is out of the game.

edit: to clarify re: traube, I meant him asking redhood his role, not using his ability.

 

[RetroMG]

Can I send my Gravity Falls game setup to someone to look over? I think I have a good setup, but I need someone to tell me if my ideas are crazy.

 

[Hobohodo]

Could it be worth us trialing mod killing in one of the season 3 games so that the whole community can then observe the pros and cons of each rule first hand? Then we can maybe try to come to an agreement going into season 4?

 

[LaunchpadMcQ]

I think naughty students who don't follow rules should be killed.

 

[Hobohodo]

I think naughty students who don't follow rules should be killed.

Can day phase wrap ups be in the style of Monokuma Theatre?

 

[LaunchpadMcQ]

Can day phase wrap ups be in the style of Monokuma Theatre?

You just gave me an awesome idea. Thank you sir.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Can I send my Gravity Falls game setup to someone to look over? I think I have a good setup, but I need someone to tell me if my ideas are crazy.

Are you planning to mod this round? If yes, send to Karkador/MattyG. If no, hold onto it. You don't need to decide now.

 

[RetroMG]

Are you planning to mod this round? If yes, send to Karkador/MattyG. If no, hold onto it. You don't need to decide now.

OK, I will hold on to it for the moment. If we wind up having more players than we can handle, though, I can host this round. I would prefer to play, but I thought I would get it ready in case it was needed.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Could it be worth us trialing mod killing in one of the season 3 games so that the whole community can then observe the pros and cons of each rule first hand? Then we can maybe try to come to an agreement going into season 4?

If there is a moderator who wishes to try doing this, I will give them my consent to do so. I will allow players to choose whether they want to be a in modkill vs. replacement game, though, as that does make a significant difference.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

I also agree with Crab about not mod-killing , however. Being a replacement is hard, but so worth it.

I do think this is a pretty critical point, though. With a mod-kill policy, people like RetroGamer and StayDead, who were both replacements and went on to be really good players and interested in our community, don't get a look-in.

 

[Ourobolus]

If there is a moderator who wishes to try doing this, I will give them my consent to do so. I will allow players to choose whether they want to be a in modkill vs. replacement game, though, as that does make a significant difference.

If I'm modding this round, I'll do it. I posted my stipulations before.

 

[Hobohodo]

In regards to mod killing I do agree with the idea on the previous page that replacements should probably be looked for up to end of day 3 at least. With all the warnings in the world we can still end up with players who get overwhelmed at the start and decide to bow out early on. The main reasons for pro mod killing seems to come from how the new players can be harder to get a read on or can be considered to likely be town making them untouchable for Mafia. If we replace early on that shouldn't be an issue.

 

[Ourobolus]

My rules would be:

1. Before Day 3, replacements will be sought out regardless.
2. When there are <6 players left, replacements will be sought out.
3. In-between, players will be mod-killed if no alert is given to the moderator or the thread. If alert is given, a replacement will be found.

 

[Timeaisis]

Ah, new thread smell.

 

[Mazre]

Mafia GAF Season 3 Recruitment Thread - Trust and Betrayal, Accusations and Objections, Lines and Boxes


On the subject of choice, I side with RNG. Take the new blood, randomly distribute among the games then randomly distribute the returning players. Gives each game a mix of new and vets and minimizes selection biases etc.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

My rules would be:

1. Before Day 3, replacements will be sought out regardless.
2. When there are <6 players left, replacements will be sought out.
3. In-between, players will be mod-killed if no alert is given to the moderator or the thread. If alert is given, a replacement will be found.

No, I'm not allowing this. The point of the experiment to the extent I'm okay with it testing if replacements or mod-kills are more disruptive. At the point that you have a rule like 2., you're basically conceding they are more disruptive, so why even have them? And 3. is continuing along the idea that modkills some how disincentivize drop-outs - this one I know is false for a fact. If you want to test modkills, then it needs to look like this:

1. Before the end of Day 3, a replacement will be sought.
2. If a player goes inactive after Day 3, they will be modkilled.

 

[Hobohodo]

My rules would be:

1. Before Day 3, replacements will be sought out regardless.
2. When there are <6 players left, replacements will be sought out.
3. In-between, players will be mod-killed if no alert is given to the moderator or the thread. If alert is given, a replacement will be found.

Not really sure I see the point in rules 2 and 3. If we are prepared to replace if they get in contact to say they can't play and to replace right at the end then we may as well just replace anyway. The only pro I see to mod killing is that it means new people don't get added in after a certain point, but rules 2 and 3 wouldn't prevent that. This set up would just make mod killing seem like a punishment to inactive players that don't care, but as they don't care punishing them achieves nothing.

Now I realise that's kind of what crab was saying...

EDIT: And crab beats me to the post anyway!

Seriously though, editing feels great.

 

[Ourobolus]

Ok. No worries. Just a thought.

EDIT: I'm fine with the feedback, just throwing the ideas out there.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Anyway, I'm off to bed now. Thank you all for the feedback and keep it coming in, it's really useful!

 

[Palmer_v1]

I also feel like we need to make it clear if you can make game content after getting voted out. Like I don't really like the idea of (hypothetically) blarg claiming cop and clearing worthy AFTER the majority vote was reached, and I don't like that traube was able to "clear" redhood after time ran out (not that it mattered.) It didn't really affect our games this time, but I just feel like actual game content should not be allowed once a person is out of the game.

edit: to clarify re: traube, I meant him asking redhood his role, not using his ability.

This is what I was getting at, yes. It limits discussion, but I kind of wish the deadline was the deadline. Barring abilities like Traube's, I'd like it if players had to stop posting once time hits.

Edit: Say the deadline is 5pm. Nobody should post or vote after 5pm, and the mods should give a general buffer of about an hour before declaring results, so that players with abilities like Traube can have time to do their thing, then at 6pm one of the moderators would declare the result and role reveal, etc.

I'm also opposed to mod killing. Think about the Star Wars game. Raindoc was very near to quitting at one point. That would have cost me, absolut, and the other hutts the game.

 

[squidyj]

I don't mind playing two games at once, personally. But I think we should make it abundantly clear in the new OT that it's a huge time commitment and can also be very stressful. Also ask people to ask for a replacement rather than just bailing. People needing to replace out is fine, but leaving without warning is lame.

I think everyone from AC Mafia will back me up when I say I have enough commitment to play in 2 games at once as well.

 

[Lord of Castamere]

Temporary relocation of Mafia Round 3, List 2.0, Codename: No Escape
----
List 2.0 has arrived. Using dates for 100% accuracy this time.
----
Hold onto your butts a new list has arrived, new players will have priority over returning players, and returning player priority will go from time of death in Round 2.

---

Total= 42

New Players(8):

• Burbeting
• Crab
• Never-Forever
• Rats Off To Ya
• Droplet
• Rest
• CornBurrito
• Mike_Hawk689

Returning Players(34):

1. El Topo
2. Seath(aka HippieHobo)
3. Swamped
4. Lord of Castamere
5. Blargonaut
6. Terrabyte20xx
7. Barrylocke
8. Salvapot
9. Quantumbro
10. LaunchpadMcQ
11. Hobohodo
12. Makai
13. Mazre
14. Kalor
15. Kingkitty
16. Ourobolus
17. OceanicAir
18. Haly
19. franconp
20. Ultron87
21. Zippedinhead
22. Ezekielrage
23. Traube
24. Timeaisis(aka Timeaisis)
25. Squidyj
26. Nin1000
27. CzarTim
28. Absolutebro
29. RetroMG(aka Retrogamer42)
30. Razmos
31. Yesnononoyes
32. Matt Attack
33. Palmer_v1
34. Darryl

 

[squidyj]

Yes. For this reason I am very wary about having days get progressively shorter as the game goes on. I'm not absolutely set on this, but I feel like if there is a particular time schedule (and I think 4:3 worked really well, close to perfect), it should not be changed at all.

Absolutely cannot agree with this at least on the stated argument. I think if you want to avoid giving away that sort of information you simply codify the progression based on players remaining and it doesn't give anything away at all. I also don't think putting it on players to convince everyone to vote majority is correct either, particularly in certain maths.


The only argument for maintaining longer days that I can view as reasonable is the difficulty for some players to manage schedules and I think that suggests some minimum day length rather than a fixed day length all throughout.

 

[Darryl]

The replacements really messed with me in the last round. They were not only invincible (no dirt), but they leaned town (likely disinterested townies with no roles). More importantly, they were free from the groupthink that formed before they showed up.

I'm all for people being responsible for the loss to their team if they bail out. It should be at mods discretion. Or just adjust the game. Like last game, Squidyj could have lost his roleclaim in transition. The fact that he could come out of no where, have no fear of eviction by HHA and no fear of eviction from town was devastating. It didn't ruin the game that I was running but it sunk deep claws into Fran/Ouro/Hobo.

 

[squidyj]

The replacements really messed with me in the last round. They were not only invincible (no dirt), but they leaned town (likely disinterested townies with no roles). More importantly, they were free from the groupthink that formed before they showed up.

I'm all for people being responsible for the loss to their team if they bail out. It should be at mods discretion. Or just adjust the game. Like last game, Squidyj could have lost his roleclaim in transition. The fact that he could come out of no where, have no fear of eviction by HHA and no fear of eviction from town was devastating. It didn't ruin the game that I was running but it sunk deep claws into Fran/Ouro/Hobo.

I'm not sure if I'm the best exemplar or not, I had a role reason to have no fear of HHA and playing without fear is something that I am prone to generally.

 

[YesNOnoNOYes]

The replacements really messed with me in the last round. They were not only invincible (no dirt), but they leaned town (likely disinterested townies with no roles). More importantly, they were free from the groupthink that formed before they showed up.

I'm all for people being responsible for the loss to their team if they bail out. It should be at mods discretion. Or just adjust the game. Like last game, Squidyj could have lost his roleclaim in transition. The fact that he could come out of no where, have no fear of eviction by HHA and no fear of eviction from town was devastating. It didn't ruin the game that I was running but it sunk deep claws into Fran/Ouro/Hobo.

Yea, I sort of think replacing in mid-game is too meta now, having experienced the thing myself.

:x





OOOOOOOOOOOH NEW THREAD SO SHINY~

 

[LaunchpadMcQ]

The replacements really messed with me in the last round. They were not only invincible (no dirt), but they leaned town (likely disinterested townies with no roles). More importantly, they were free from the groupthink that formed before they showed up.

I'm all for people being responsible for the loss to their team if they bail out. It should be at mods discretion. Or just adjust the game. Like last game, Squidyj could have lost his roleclaim in transition. The fact that he could come out of no where, have no fear of eviction by HHA and no fear of eviction from town was devastating. It didn't ruin the game that I was running but it sunk deep claws into Fran/Ouro/Hobo.

On the other hand, we had like 4 town replacements, didn't we? It kind of ruins the balance of the game anyway if we do it the way you're suggesting.

I'm not saying I have the answer, but there are positives and negatives with each alternative.

 

[Ourobolus]

It's why it's a touchy subject. I don't know where the line is between mod-killing and not.

 

[Darryl]

I'm not sure if I'm the best exemplar or not, I had a role reason to have no fear of HHA and playing without fear is something that I am prone to generally.

Yea I know. I mean I know your persona from seeing you in other threads beforehand. Like a fire met dynamite. The same thing happened with people like Ezekel, too. When you're mafia and trying to keep control of a group having people come and go it starts to take far more work, makes your attempts more transparent. The new people don't read your messages the same way the old people do. I changed my persona immediately and reset after the replacements started coming. But it's only because before that I was quiet that I was able to do that at all anyways. Ouro would have never been able to do that.

 

[Darryl]

On the other hand, we had like 4 town replacements, didn't we? It kind of ruins the balance of the game anyway if we do it the way you're suggesting.

I'm not saying I have the answer, but there are positives and negatives with each alternative.

I can see why it'd be hard to figure out. I'm just for mod discretion. First replacement gets in no problem. Second gets axed. Third loses his role. Or first three get in, fourth becomes secret mafia. Whatever feels right. Maybe it's just because I'm new as that was literally my first game. I don't know what's already been said or researched about it. Perfect balance to me in this game seems like such a floaty thing that I don't know how it can be grasped to begin with. I don't know why try.

 

[LaunchpadMcQ]

I can see why it'd be hard to figure out. I'm just for mod discretion. First replacement gets in no problem. Second gets axed. Third loses his role. Or first three get in, fourth becomes secret mafia. Whatever feels right. Maybe it's just because I'm new as that was literally my first game. I don't know what's already been said or researched about it. Perfect balance to me in this game seems like such a floaty thing that I don't know how it can be grasped to begin with. I don't know why try.

You're absolutely right, though. Even with the most barebones make-up, mafia is a game that tips its balance one way or the other based on practically nothing. We manage it how we can, but there will never be a truly balanced game, and definitely never a variant.

We try because we want everyone to get the best experience, and for less people to cry about the results.

As for your suggestions on how to deal with dropouts, I'll keep them in mind. I'm not sure how I'll approach if/when I host. For now, I plan to play each one by ear.

 

[Darryl]

To try to drag that other thread into here, at least one of the games should be something people are familiar with. I went fuxk yeah when I got assigned to Animal Crossing. I hate Star Wars and I hardly know anything about it. I didn't keep up with it because I don't get the references. Don't know what Hutt is, Imperial, blah. Altho I read the parts where Blargonaut was dropping pure knowledge.

 

[LaunchpadMcQ]

I'm going to agree with Time and say flavor is flavor. I'm probably the worst person to argue that because I live through pop culture and I know a little bit about everything (trust me when I say that's not a brag), but AC and SW are definitely not my favorite IPs by any stretch. I still had loads of fun.

 

[Ourobolus]

Despite playing New Leaf for a bit, I know nothing about AC. Still had fun though.

 

[Rats Off To Ya]

As somebody who started reading Season Two a little ways into it, I would suggest people not put spoilers in their avatars after they are dead. I knew Blarg would be detained in Star Wars because of his avatar, and I haven't read much of Animal Crossing yet but I can only assume Ourobolus was Mafia.

Just a heads up. I'm sure I wasn't the only lurker, and new spectators could be coming at any time.

 

[Kevyt]

Number of player slots for the game: 24

People who have been told about, consulted, or hinted information about your set-up: Vaguely told some people in the previous thread about the theme.

Theme: Yu-gi-oh, from the anime/cartoon show.

Here's a rundown of the anime. This video sums up some of the story and the combat in the game.

Here's a brief rowndown of what Yu-gi-oh is:

Yu-Gi-Oh! tells the tale of Yugi Mutou, a timid young boy who loves all sorts of games, but is often bullied around. One day, he solves an ancient artifact known as the Millennium Puzzle (&#21315;&#24180;&#12497;&#12474;&#12523; Sennen Pazuru?), causing his body to play host to a mysterious spirit with the personality of a gambler. From that moment onwards, whenever Yugi or one of his friends is threatened by those with darkness in their hearts, this other Yugi shows himself and challenges them to dangerous Shadow Games (&#38343;&#12398;&#12466;&#12540;&#12512; Yami no G&#275;mu?, lit. "Games of Darkness") which reveal the true nature of someone's heart, the losers of these contests often being subjected to a dark punishment called a Penalty Game (&#32624;&#12466;&#12540;&#12512; Batsu G&#275;mu?). Whether it be cards, dice or role-playing board games, he will take on challenges from anyone, anywhere. As the series progresses, Yugi and his friends learn that this person inside of his puzzle is actually the spirit of a nameless Pharaoh from Egyptian times who had lost his memories. As Yugi and his companions attempt to help the Pharaoh regain his memories, they find themselves going through many trials as they wager their lives facing off against gamers that wield the mysterious Millennium Items (&#21315;&#24180;&#12450;&#12452;&#12486;&#12512; Sennen Aitemu?) and the dark power of the Shadow Games.

So essentially a kid playing a card game against other enemies to determine the faith of humanity... lol xD

 

[CzarTim]

I can see why it'd be hard to figure out. I'm just for mod discretion. First replacement gets in no problem. Second gets axed. Third loses his role. Or first three get in, fourth becomes secret mafia. Whatever feels right. Maybe it's just because I'm new as that was literally my first game. I don't know what's already been said or researched about it. Perfect balance to me in this game seems like such a floaty thing that I don't know how it can be grasped to begin with. I don't know why try.

I agree that ultimately it should be up to the moderator to decide, but with that said there needs to be consistency to the moderator's actions. If the mod kills one person but then replaces the next, that would be very confusing to players. Making it clear "I won't mod kill" or "I'll mod kill after day three" at the start of the game will let players know what to expect.

 

[Barrylocke]

I just want to comment that it is kind of weird remembering that to an extent these events are not just a game for the players, but a performance/show for lurkers as well. Not bad by any means, but much of my mafia playing was done on an old forum made specifically for mafia, with only one major game done on a general forum. Realizing that we're essentially on stage kinda adds yet another layer of thrill imo.

 

[LaunchpadMcQ]

.

But can I summon a bunch of monsters in one turn?

 

[Karkador]

These are not game breaking issues or anything, but just stuff that came to me as we played, or afterwards. Rules consistency! A lot of us gave karkador crap about his majority math. I have no vested interest in how majority works, but I do think we should pick a way to do it and follow it in every game. Same goes for self voting; one game allowed it while the other disallowed it.

Maybe I'm just further pushing myself outside of the mainstream by saying this, but I think it's okay to deviate from the standard template of rules.

I initially set out to just follow the rules template Crab made for the first game. It was when I ran into the "50%+1" part of his rules that I went and googled what that meant, and thought more about the rules and why they are what they are.

In the end, I'm glad I did it the way I did. I personally feel that it worked for my game, but I wouldn't say it's the "right" way to do it all the time. I think just modifying the way people vote could be part of an exciting new setup for a game, and I hope people think about what fits the game best vs. sticking to a one-size-fits-all mechanic.

 

[RetroMG]

On the topic of Flavor, I felt like the theming in the AC game was never at the forefront, which is fine. It should be a nice touch for those who are familiar with it, but not necessary.

For my Gravity Falls game, I started with the characters to start laying down roles, but honestly a lot (not all) of those roles are similar to the AC game. So while I intend to include the themeing when I run my game, I will also make sure that the basic roles are clear for the people who have never seen he show.