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[Azrael]

This is far too long to repost, but the best dissection of the documentary I've seen to date:

http://davekopel.com/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm

 

[Dead]

sounds like a christmas carol

 

[Ned Flanders]

This should be interesting..

 

[explodet]

I want to give that page a chance, I really do, but the layout and presentation is just abysmal. 230K worth of HTML on one page is extremely user unfriendly.

 

[andthebeatgoeson]

From that link:

Moore Supports Terrorists

Deceit 58



In Fahrenheit 9/11, Moore claims to support our troops. But in fact, he supports the enemy in Iraq—the coalition of Saddam loyalists, al Qaeda operatives, and terrorists controlled by Iran or Syria—who are united in their desire to murder Iraqis, and to destroy any possibility of democracy in Iraq. Here is what Moore says about the forces who are killing Americans and trying to impose totalitarian rule on Iraq:

The Iraqis who have risen up against the occupation are not "insurgents" or "terrorists" or "The Enemy." They are the REVOLUTION, the Minutemen, and their numbers will grow -- and they will win.

Michael Moore, “Heads Up... from Michael Moore,” MichaelMoore.com, April 14, 2004. Of course if you believe that the people who are perpetrating suicide bombings against Iraqi civilians and American soldiers for the purpose of forcing a totalitarian boot onto Iraq are the moral equivalent of the American Founders, then Moore's claim about the Iraqi insurgents could be valid. But even if that claim were valid (and I do not believe that any reasonable person can equate people fighting for totalitarianism with people fighting for constitutional democracy), then Moore is still being dishonest in Fahrenheit when he pronounces his concern for American troops. To the contrary, he is cheering for the forces which are killing our troops, as he equates the killers with freedom-fighters. And if you think that the people who are slaughtering American soldiers, American civilians, Iraqi soldiers, and Iraqi civilians are terrorists rather than "minutemen," then it is true that Moore supports terrorists. By the way, the number of Iraqi victims of Moore's "minutemen" outnumbers American victims by about 10:1.



There are some sincere opponents of the Iraq War who want to "support our troops" by bringing them home, and thereby getting them out danger. But it's deceptive to say that you support the troops if (besides lobbying for troop withdrawal) you are actively recruiting enemy fighters to kill our troops. Moore is doing so, as the next item details.



[Moore response: None.]

Flint

Deceit 57



Lipscomb is from Flint, Michigan, which Moore calls "my hometown." In fact, Moore grew up in Davison, Michigan, a suburb of Flint. Davison is much wealthier than Flint. According to the Census Bureau, 6 percent of children in the Davison public schools are from families living in poverty, whereas in Flint, 31 percent of children are. Calling Flint your "hometown" when you really grew up in Davison is like calling the Bronx "my hometown" when you really grew up in Westchester County.

Flint is working class, industrial, down-at-heel, where the majority of the population is black or Latino. It's where the factories are.

Davison, where Moore grew up and attended Davison High School, is comfortable middle class, suburban, and white. Overwhelmingly white. It's where the managers and professionals live. While many of the children of Flint go on to work at the factories...the normal trajectory for the children of Davison is university. Michael Moore went to university (though didn't stick long). Unusually, he also went to Flint and tried his hand on the blue-collar front line with a job on the Buick assembly line for General Motors. He found the conditions under which the working class actually worked so appalling he quit the job after one day.

"Less is Moore," Sydney Morning Herald, July 10, 2004.

Discussing unemployment rates, Mrs. Lipscomb states, "But you have to take into account as well that when your unemployment runs out you're no longer counted." (Presumably she means that when your "unemployment insurance benefits" run out, you're no longer counted.) There is no reason to doubt her sincerity, but she is incorrect in this regard. The Bureau of Labor Statistics unemployment rate counts all "Persons 16 years and over who had no employment during the reference week, were available for work, except for temporary illness, and had made specific efforts to find employment sometime during the 4-week period ending with the reference week." The rate has nothing do with whether the person is receiving unemployment insurance payments.



[Moore response: Does not attempt to explain why he calls Flint "my hometown." No defense of the misstatement about how unemployment rates are calculated.



In previous draft, I had cited data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics reporting that Flint's unemployment rate in January 2004 was 10 percent, and said that Fahrenheit''s claim about a 17 percent rate was incorrect. Moore's response cited the Michigan Dept. of Labor & Economic Growth for a 17 percent rate. The BLS figure (10 percent) is labeled "Flint," but actually includes all of Genesee Country. The Michigan DLEG figure (17 percent) is for the city of Flint only. So Moore was correct, and I was incorrect.]

Spin spin spin. Both Moore and this guy would be well served to not add extraneous bullshit that hampers their main message. Some of those points were intriguing but these last 2 just shoot some holes in his intentions. And it becomes Fox News. Yeah, there's some news but...

 

[Kuroyume]

Way too much to read... make it into a documentary and I will... nah I won't bother...

 

[andthebeatgoeson]

Lila Lipscomb and Military Casualties

Misleading



Fahrenheit spends a much time on the grief of Lila Lipscomb, the mother of Sgt. Michael Pederson, who died in Iraq in April 2003. There is no room in Fahrenheit for bereaved families who feel different from Mrs. Lipscomb. Not even room for the widow Sgt. Michael Pederson, who believes that "Hating President Bush is not going to bring Michael back." Ben Schmitt, "Flint woman spotlighted in Moore's latest movie," Detroit Free Press, May 29, 2004.



Fahrenheit wallows in pity for Mrs. Lipscomb. “I was tired of seeing people like Mrs. Lipscomb suffer,” Moore claims. Yet Moore’s website is not quite so sympathetic:

I’m sorry, but the majority of Americans supported this war once it began and, sadly, that majority must now sacrifice their children until enough blood has been let that maybe -- just maybe -- God and the Iraqi people will forgive us in the end.

Michael Moore, “Heads Up... from Michael Moore,” MichaelMoore.com, April 14, 2004.



Fahrenheit is correct in pointing out that people who enlist in the military are less likely to be college graduates and more likely to be black than is the general U.S. population. However, Moore's portrayal of the socioeconomics of the U.S. military is false is several respects. First, people who are at the lowest end of the economic spectrum--people who have failed to graduate from high school or to obtain a G.E.D.--are not over-represented in the military. Like college graduates, they are under-represented. In the case of high school drop-outs, the reason is that the all-volunteer military can be selective, and generally prefers not to enlist high-school drop-outs.



Although blacks are about twice as likely to serve in the military as is the general U.S. population, black people do not suffer disproportionate casualties in Iraq. Official casualty statistics for Operation Iraqi Freedom report that--as of June 26, 2004--blacks suffered 111 of the 850 U.S. fatalites. That figure of 13%. The Census Bureau estimates that blacks comprise 12.3% of the U.S. population. The reason that black enlistment is disproportionate but black fatalities are not is that many blacks in the military serve in support roles (such as providing supplies) which are unlikely to suffer high rates of casualties. Sydney J. Freedberg, Jr., "The Fallen: A profile of U.S. troops killed in Iraq and Afghanistan," GovExec.com, May 28,

I guess the author got so wrapped up in his objections to Moore's opinion that he forgot what a documentary should do: It's not obligated to present every side.

 

[Pattergen]

Woah, that is some crappy layout.

I read through some of it... But the layout sucks to go through. I think I'll check it out in its final form. The article has some points. Maybe they should make a movie out of it.

And yeah, those points 57 and 58 are ridiculous. Looks bad on the authors.

 

[VPhys]

Holy text batman!

 

[FightyF]

I scrolled down the list...found ONE point...and it's completely assinine.

Three days after September 11, Moore demanded that no military action be taken against Afghanistan:

"Declare war?" War against whom? One guy in the desert whom we can never seem to find? Are our leaders telling us that the most powerful country on earth cannot dispose of one sick evil f---wad of a guy? Because if that is what you are telling us, then we are truly screwed. If you are unable to take out this lone ZZ Top wannabe, what on earth would you do for us if we were attacked by a nation of millions? For chrissakes, call the Israelis and have them do that thing they do when they want to get their man! We pay them enough billions each year, I am SURE they would be happy to accommodate your request....

But do not declare war and massacre more innocents. After bin Laden's previous act of terror, our last elected president went and bombed what he said was "bin Laden's camp" in Afghanistan -- but instead just killed civilians.

Michael Moore, "War on Whom?" AlterNet, Sept. 14, 2001.

The next day he wrote:

Trust me, they are talking politics night and day, and those discussions involve sending our kids off to fight some invisible enemy and to indiscriminately bomb Afghans or whoever they think will make us Americans feel good.

...I fear we will soon be in a war that will do NOTHING to protect us from the next terrorist attack.

"Mike's Message," Sept. 15, 2001. Although Moore vehemently opposed the Afghanistan War, Fahrenheit criticizes Bush for not putting more troops into Afghanistan sooner.

Obviously he's talking about bombing a country, and going after a person. He made this distinction.

If Moore were President, he would have went after Osama bin Laden. Bush decided to leave him alone (according to Moore's data it's 2 months, according to mine, it's longer than that) until he took out the Taliban.

We've killed thousands of innocent people in Afghanistan, and it didn't get us closer to our objective. This is Moore's point.

A point missed by the writer of this long diatribe. I could probably go through every point and find flaws in it.

Scrolling down, he also uses sources such as "Stephen Hayes, The Connection: How al Qaeda's Collaboration with Saddam Hussein has Endangered America" which can be considered fiction. He also links to other sites that are Nazi like in their propaganda. How can you take this seriously?

 

[Azrael]

I guess the author got so wrapped up in his objections to Moore's opinion that he forgot what a documentary should do: It's not obligated to present every side.

While I don't think Moore is obligated to present military families that support the war in contrast to the Lipscombs, but Kopel does raise a very important point:

Fahrenheit wallows in pity for Mrs. Lipscomb. “I was tired of seeing people like Mrs. Lipscomb suffer,” Moore claims. Yet Moore’s website is not quite so sympathetic:

I’m sorry, but the majority of Americans supported this war once it began and, sadly, that majority must now sacrifice their children until enough blood has been let that maybe -- just maybe -- God and the Iraqi people will forgive us in the end.

Michael Moore, “Heads Up... from Michael Moore,” MichaelMoore.com, April 14, 2004.

The statements are flatly contradictory. Moore cannot both be tired of people who supported the war suffering as a result of the war AND desire that those who supported the war suffer and die to absolve us for having launched the war. The implication is obvious - Moore doesn't feel sorry for the GIs who have died in Iraq, but feigns sympathy for them and their families to make his argument against the war more persuasive. That qualified as deceit in my book.

 

[pestul]

Said it before but, imo even if 1/10th of F9/11 is true & not distorted.. everyone should be sick enough from the corruption to run them out of office.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

The statements are flatly contradictory. Moore cannot both be tired of people who supported the war suffering as a result of the war AND desire that those who supported the war suffer and die to absolve us for having launched the war.

He never says in the second quote, though, that that's what he desires. He says that it's sadly must be done. I've thought it was a particularly poorly worded and heartless comment since the first time I read it, but it does make some more sense in context.

http://michaelmoore.com/words/message/index.php?messageDate=2004-04-14

There is a lot of talk amongst Bush's opponents that we should turn this war over to the United Nations. Why should the other countries of this world, countries who tried to talk us out of this folly, now have to clean up our mess? I oppose the U.N. or anyone else risking the lives of their citizens to extract us from our debacle. I'm sorry, but the majority of Americans supported this war once it began and, sadly, that majority must now sacrifice their children until enough blood has been let that maybe -- just maybe -- God and the Iraqi people will forgive us in the end.

More like "We made the mess, we should have to clean it up."

 

[OG_Original Gamer]

He never says in the second quote, though, that that's what he desires. He says that it's sadly must be done. I've thought it was a particularly poorly worded and heartless comment since the first time I read it, but it does make some more sense in context.

http://michaelmoore.com/words/message/index.php?messageDate=2004-04-14


More like "We made the mess, we should have to clean it up."

Yeah, I totally agree. Those that are not fond of Michael Moore and his latest documentary, seem to read his comments negatively.

What he's saying is, in the eyes of many Iraqi's the people we call insurgents and terrorists are there soldiers, they're the ones fighting for their freedom from occupation. These feelings may be changing because of the suicide bombings that has been killing more Iraqi's than American soldiers. So, basically what has been said previously has come to pass. The longer our men and women stay there, more will die.

 

[StoOgE]

At some point in the middle of his diatribe about the Florida election he goes off on how conservative voters in the panhandle were disuaded from voting or something. Most of this has little/nothing to do with Moore or whats in his movie and more to do with what the author would put into his own documentary.

He should retitle this, "the 59 aired complaints about things I wish were in Fahrenheit 9/11"

I cant believe I am reading this.. the guy missed the boat on this.. we all realize that Katherine Harris didnt actually recount the votes herself..

from what I can tell, 90% of his complaints are being levelled against newspaper articles for slight inacuracies or mis-statemets.. which hits me as not really attacking the point that Moore is making nor could you pin any of that as Moore's fault.

 

[Error Macro]

Said it before but, imo even if 1/10th of F9/11 is true & not distorted.. everyone should be sick enough from the corruption to run them out of office.

Believe me, this could be said of practically any political position held past or present.