The Amount of Hillary Hate Scares Me

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EnthronedReaper said:
Being Devils advocate here but maybe after all those atrocities occur maybe just maybe people will vote for progressive ideals which will propel us to greatness rather than becoming an idiocracy.
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You're ignoring the main argument made in that post, which is that Trump would most likely elect a conservative justice and it would stay that way for decades. That is a Big Deal. If we elected Bernie or someone very similar to him in 2020, it wouldn't have nearly the same impact as it would now.

And to people saying that Trump doesn't like CU doesn't change the fact that there's no way a republican congress would approve a justice that could repeal it.
 
Russ T said:
The first two are not people wanting a Republican.

The last one is insane, which fits the claim that few sane people would vote Trump!
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Not wanting a Republican but not willing to do what you need to do to not get one makes it all a wash.

If you don't do your part to not elect the GOP you played a role in electing the GOP
 
Darkgran said:
Has anyone answered my question on how Trump actually gets to 270?!??!???
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He doesn't have a clear path. Unless there is a huge financial collapse again, a terrorist attack in the US or he radically changes his positions he couldn't win the general.
 
excelsiorlef said:
You have two parties, one is insane, the other isn't.

That's not team sports, that's fucking reality.

The US is still paying for Reagan
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Come on, excelsior, what's a couple of decades more without laws that protect the LGBT community or other minorities? What's the matter with the NSA looking through your nude pics?

Just a couple of liberties! /s
 
excelsiorlef said:
Not wanting a Republican but not willing to do what you need to do to not get one is a wash.
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Nonetheless, you mischaracterized these people as wanting a Republican when, in fact, they don't. (Otherwise, they'd vote for one.)

EDIT: Also, telling people not to vote for who they want just because they're not Democrat or Republican is exactly the reason this country is in this fucked up two-party system. Welcome to hell. AKA the United States of America.
 
EnthronedReaper said:
Being Devils advocate here but maybe after all those atrocities occur maybe just maybe people will vote for progressive ideals which will propel us to greatness rather than becoming an idiocracy.
Honestly though, the simple fact that trump becoming president is a possibility is ludicrous.
Maybe after this shit show the republicans can go back to the once great party they were.

If someone told me when I was a youngster that trump would run under the same banner that Abe Lincoln once did, I would be fucking stunned. Might have shit my pants in disbelief
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Do you honestly think the Republicans would not rig the process so that even if people want to vote for progressive ideals they can't because of gerrymandering, voter ID laws, minor felonies, etc?
 
Darkgran said:
Has anyone answered my question on how Trump actually gets to 270?!??!???
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He gets to 270 with magic. Lots and lots of magic.

More seriously: counting any remotely close state east of Interstates 29/49 as a toss-up (meaning IA/WI/MI/OH/PA/VA/NC/GA/FL), the race probably stands at 220-175 with 143 tossup EVs. (Why 220? Because Colorado and Nevada have too many Hispanic voters for Trump to realistically win either.)

Of those 143, Trump's favorables are second-term-of-W levels of underwater or damn close to it in Michigan and Wisconsin, and the last general-election poll of Virginia - which was taken just last month - showed Clinton holding a 17-point lead. That brings us up to 259, with Trump still at 175.

We can probably pencil her in for Pennsylvania right now, given that there's literally no reason to expect Pittsburgh and Philly to not counteract the rest of the state.

That's 279 with five states left.

Trump just straight-up has no path unless there's a full-on financial collapse or Clinton's found in bed with Robo-Hitler. A terrorist attack will be a push at best for him, and ain't no pivot gonna work this time.
 
BiggNife said:
And to people saying that Trump doesn't like CU doesn't change the fact that there's no way a republican congress would approve a justice that could repeal it.
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So it doesn't matter if Hilary wins unless they win the senate too? If republicans really want to be obstructionist they can as long as they have 41 seats.
 
excelsiorlef said:
This thread is full of people talking about not voting, or voting third party, or voting Trump, etc....
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Or understanding of how you build lasting political coalition's and change.

Not voting, or protest voting just makes sure your voice will never be taken seriously. Why should anyone when you can't be counted on for votes or support because of your own ego?

There's a Quid Pro Quo between constituents and politicians. That's how politics fucking works.
 
MC Safety said:
Why do people dislike Hillary?

Start with national healthcare, and work your way to Libya.

Somewhere among the scandals, lies, and corporate worship there's bound to be something to turn you off.
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Yep, and what's most baffling to me, as there's a lot of people I see that refuse to see or acknowledge that.
 
Russ T said:
Nonetheless, you mischaracterized these people as wanting a Republican when, in fact, they don't. (Otherwise, they'd vote for one.)
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The end result is the same, they don't have an answer for that question.

Not wanting one but not willing to stop it from happening is the same result as wanting one.
 
The democratic party is now working against the middle class, unfortunately. They are working for the corporations, the pharmaceutical industry, even the oil industry, at our expense. The 'status quo' is part of the problem. Maybe not quite as bad as the Republicans, but it is the "lesser evil".

If you don't know much about Hillary's history, I would recommend researching her. In my mind, she has done more damage to the middle class than positives. I am unsure where this narrative came from that she will be a good leader. I can only imagine it is the media's coverage and their entanglement with her that gives her such a positive image. (Well, technically, in polls people overwhelmingly say they don't trust her... Why would they? She has lied so many times.)

I would say the idea of Hillary as president scares me. Not as much as Trump of course, but it is still alarming.
 
Russ T said:
Nonetheless, you mischaracterized these people as wanting a Republican when, in fact, they don't. (Otherwise, they'd vote for one.)

EDIT: Also, telling people not to vote for who they want just because they're not Democrat or Republican is exactly the reason this country is in this fucked up two-party system. Welcome to hell. AKA the United States of America.
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You're entire system is built on 2 parties, it is impossible short of throwing out your entire system to change that.


And you aren't going to do that but voting for a third party.

Russ T said:
Result is not intent...
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Intent is irrelevant given the result.
 
Nipo said:
So it doesn't matter if Hilary wins unless they win the senate too? If republicans really want to be obstructionist they can as long as they have 41 seats.
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They can get away with delaying a vote for 335 days but not 4 years. The longer they pull stuff like that, the less likely they are to be re-elected.
 
Russ T said:
EDIT: Also, telling people not to vote for who they want just because they're not Democrat or Republican is exactly the reason this country is in this fucked up two-party system
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No. Every voting system in the country being a winner-take-all model, in addition to the fact that we have a complete fucking mess of a separation between executive and legislative branches relative to a Westminster system, is exactly the reason this country is in a fucked-up two-party system.
 
BiggNife said:
They can get away with delaying a vote for 335 days but not 4 years. The longer they pull stuff like that, the less likely they are to be re-elected.
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Not to mention since Clinton actually mobilizes the down ballot and raises $$$ for them she might flip the senate.
 
excelsiorlef said:
Not wanting one but not willing to stop it from happening is the same result as wanting one.
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No. No it isn't.

I don't want kids to starve in Africa but I'm not going to donate all my money to prevent it. That doesn't mean i'm for starving children.

If you're out with your friend and the two of you get mugged. If the mugger is going to shoot your friend you not being willing to jump in from of the bullet to stop him from getting shot doesn't mean you want it to happen.
 
eBay Huckster said:
He gets to 270 with magic. Lots and lots of magic.

More seriously: counting any remotely close state east of Interstates 29/49 as a toss-up (meaning IA/WI/MI/OH/PA/VA/NC/GA/FL), the race probably stands at 220-175 with 143 tossup EVs. (Why 220? Because Colorado and Nevada have too many Hispanic voters for Trump to realistically win either.)

Of those 143, Trump's favorables are second-term-of-W levels of underwater or damn close to it in Michigan and Wisconsin, and the last general-election poll of Virginia - which was taken just last month - showed Clinton holding a 17-point lead. That brings us up to 259, with Trump still at 175.

We can probably pencil her in for Pennsylvania right now, given that there's literally no reason to expect Pittsburgh and Philly to not counteract the rest of the state.

That's 279 with five states left.

Trump just straight-up has no path unless there's a full-on financial collapse or Clinton's found in bed with Robo-Hitler. A terrorist attack will be a push at best for him, and ain't no pivot gonna work this time.
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THANK YOU!

Trump isn't winning shit.
 
Darryl M R said:
It disgusts me. If we get a Republican president after a X vs Hillary race I will blame every Bernie supporter.

Support your candidate but also the party.
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Screw that. If Hillary loses its her and her campaigns fault. I'll vote for whoever the Democratic nominee is but if she fails to generate any excitement or attract voters that her own problem. A few vocal Bernie supporters online isn't going to make a notable difference.
 
excelsiorlef said:
You're entire system is built on 2 parties, it is impossible short of throwing out your entire system to change that.


And you aren't going to do that but voting for a third party.



Intent is irrelevant given the result.
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You are shifting the goalposts in this pretty wildly.

Also, voting for the candidate you want to win is exactly how you make your voice heard. So voting for a third party is well within the system. Telling someone to vote for a candidate they don't believe in is pretty fucking anti-democratic.

eBay Huckster said:
No. Every voting system in the country being a winner-take-all model, in addition to the fact that we have a complete fucking mess of a separation between executive and legislative branches relative to a Westminster system, is exactly the reason this country is in a fucked-up two-party system.
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It's true, that's also part of it.
 
Nipo said:
No. No it isn't.

I don't want kids to starve in Africa but I'm not going to donate all my money to prevent it. That doesn't mean i'm for starving children.

If you're out with your friend and the two of you get mugged. If the mugger is going to shoot your friend you not being willing to jump in from of the bullet to stop him from getting shot doesn't mean you want it to happen.
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None of those compare to voting. Like not even remotely, you're not losing money or your life buy voting. You don't have to give up anything to vote.....
 
Prodigal Son said:
No it isn't. If people only ever pushed for change if the change was guaranteed, we'd live in a stagnant society.
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Except it isn't?

Society changes whether you want it or not.

Clinton is pushing for change. Slow guaranteed change. Obama campaigned on more change AND GOT IT but he also had the house and senate to work with.

Pushing for huge change and failing only causes the backlash to get stronger.
 
Russ T said:
It's true, that's also part of it.
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I'd argue that it's the single biggest part - the mechanisms of the system, especially the fact that there's just the one president, mean third-party votes are more likely than not to be wasted.

Surface of Me said:
I might for Trump if Hilary gets the nom. America deserves to crumble if those are the options we get.
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Hey, I have a post for this!

eBay Huckster said:
Just gonna point out that historically, accelerationism (let's make shit the worst all at once and maybe we can improve from our current position, eventually!) is a stronger argument for fascism than it is for any kind of left-wing ideals.
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excelsiorlef said:
If enough of these left wing people sit home this election, you'll get change all right....
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It's like you're implying I'm pro-voter apathy. I'm not. That insinuation doesn't do much for your argument.

People can feel disenfranchised and uninterested in the political process for a any number of reasons. Their non-involvement in the general, even if they liked Sanders during the primaries, is not a vote for the Republicans.

Ogrekiller said:
Except it isn't?

Society changes whether you want it or not.

Clinton is pushing for change. Slow guaranteed change. Obama campaigned on more change AND GOT IT but he also had the house and senate to work with.

Pushing for huge change and failing only causes the backlash to get stronger.
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This discussion has been about whether or not staying home during the general or voting third party is ultimately a worthwhile thing to do provided you're not a fan of Clinton. I haven't been discussing whether or not Sanders' goals are the ideal.
 
excelsiorlef said:
None of those compare to voting. Like not even remotely, you're not losing money or your life buy voting. You don't have to give up anything to vote.....
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But if your logical argument doesn't hold in those cases you should modify it to explain why voting is different for example:

"In situations with low burden to oneself not being willing to oppose something is the same to supporting it."

What you said originally was completely illogical and makes all kinds of assumptions.

Plus you for a lot of people voting for Hillary or Bernie does cost them a lot of money compared to voting for whoever the R team puts up. They do it anyways.
 
Surface of Me said:
I might for Trump if Hilary gets the nom. America deserves to crumble if those are the options we get.
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Have some empathy for the people whose lives would be screwed up by a Republican president. Don't be a jerk.

You wouldn't be voting for Hillary, you'd be voting against racism, xenophobia, homophobia, sexism, climate change denial, etc. I mean, unless your attitude is something other than "fuck minorities and the poor," it's hypocritical to vote Trump.
 
Prodigal Son said:
It's like you're implying I'm pro-voter apathy. I'm not. That insinuation doesn't do much for your argument.

People can feel disenfranchised and uninterested in the political process for a any number of reasons. Their non-involvement in the general, even if they liked Sanders during the primaries, is not a vote for the Republicans.
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I mean it defacto is.... I don't see how you're disagreeing with this.

If left wing anti GOP people refuse to put their vote where their mouth is, they're just talk, and in the end are actively aiding the GOP in swing states by not adding to the Democratic numbers.


You don't have to like it but if you don't do it, you're just helping regression.
 
Nipo said:
But if the logical argument doesn't hold in those cases you should modify it to why voting is different for example:

In situations with low burden to oneself not being willing to oppose something is the same to supporting it.

What you said originally was completely illogical and makes all kinds of assumptions.
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If you refuse to vote against the GOP you are helping the GOP.

It means fuck all if you really hate them and oppose everything they do.

Talk is cheap, walk the fucking walk.
 
Surface of Me said:
Examples?
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I mean, just look at the aftermath of every single major economic downturn of the last century (particularly the Depression and the post-WWI recession) if you'd like concrete examples of Consciousness Not Instantly Developing In Your Direction, but just as a concept it's nonsensical.

The working class is not magically going to develop a socialist consciousness of the world if and/or when the pressure of the boot on their head gets too high - they're just gonna blame it on something else, like Jews or immigrants or Syrian refugees.
 
Hillary was one of the most consistently liberal votes in the senate in her time, generally held pretty far left positions in the 90s when it was quite controversial to do so, and shares almost the same positions as Bernie on most issues. But because she has been on the national stage for nearly 3 decades she also has a lot of muck and dirt on her both from partisan attacks and her "evolution" on certain issues. Basically, voters dislike her for being a career politician. Add on top of that people's issues with her personality and their perceptions of her agenda. It gets ugly fast.
 
excelsiorlef said:
I mean it defacto is.... I don't see how you're disagreeing with this.

If left wing anti GOP people refuse to put their vote where their mouth is, they're just talk, and in the end are actively aiding the GOP in swing states by not adding to the Democratic numbers.


You don't have to like it but if you don't do it, you're just helping regression.
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I know very, very many people who do not vote. A large portion of the American populace does not vote. I think they'd take issue with your claim that their position supports either party, especially because their position is, inherently, non-support for either party. In my view, only a vote for a Republican is a vote for a republican.

You're not going to win your candidate of choice much support using this line of reasoning. You're much better off emphasizing why it is that democrat policy is better for the people than republican policy.
 
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