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[aeolist]

I absolutely wish the people who are saying they won't vote would reconsider.

But... How am I supposed to, and why should I, coerce them into voting for someone they have intense distrust for? I think Hillary is fucking slime. I do not like her at all. She's two-faced and says what makes her popular, and does what corporations want from her. Better than the alternative, but still slime.

Why should I tell anyone to vote for someone like that? I can justify it to myself, but not to others.

scotus is the only necessary answer

if you really think hillary would appoint the same or worse scotus justices than anyone else running you are hilariously delusional

 

[Kyosaiga]

Sorry OP, but I fully intend on writing in Bernie's name or Jill Stein, should he not get the nomination. I only vote for people I believe in. Pure & simple. That's why I voted for Obama. It's why I vote for the candidate I research and agree on issues with.

The truth is, when it comes to corporate interests vs. Public interest, I have only negative feelings for Hillary. I don't hate her, but I neither trust, or think she would have the public's best interest at heart whenever it comes to odds with corporate interests. Once Bernie is out, my interest in the election is effectively over. I'll vote in the general for an independent, and that's it.

Again with this bullshit "beholden to corporate interests" charge with no credible evidence.

It's amazing.

 

[Prodigal Son]

The post you are quoting does not appear to be claiming this, though.

first-past-the-post voting in a two party system means you always need to vote against the candidate you hate and not always for the one you love. that's the reality of the american political system.

That's example what this seemed to claim to me.

They should if they want to avoid GOP supreme control,
.

I completely agree.
Thing is, like I've established, people supported Sanders for different reasons. He had independent appeal. Being independent means you're pulling in a ton of varied, unaffiliated voters from a variety of backgrounds and political perspectives.
Not all of those voters (as we've seen) is anti-GOP. They just happen to be pro-Sanders.

Regardless, you're right: If you don't want a GOP president more than you don't want Clinton, I agree that the rational thing to do is to vote for Clinton.

 

[Team Alucard]

Some people are insane. Holy shit.

This kind of thought damages the entire world. A message, yeah right. Sounds more like a revenge.

What good are any modest congressional gains going to do for the Democrats when they'll just end up getting slaughtered two years later in 2018?

A huge blow-out win where Hillary nets 400+ EV and the Dems regain control of the Senate would distract attention from the party's serious deficiencies and once again lure people into a false sense of security about the health of the party which will be shattered 2 years later in the mid-terms.

The cold truth is that the Democratic Party is an absolute disaster outside of presidential elections. You can whine about gerrymandering and voter apathy all you want, but poor strategy and leadership has just as much to do with their down-ballot struggles.

For the Democrats to become a strong party again at all levels of government there needs to be some serious changes in leadership and electoral strategy, and that's not going to happen if Hillary rolls to a blow-out victory.

 

[aeolist]

That's example what this seemed to claim to me.

in terms of optimal outcomes when thinking like a game theorist, it is in fact the only way to vote in america. go for the person most likely to beat the one you hate most, that's it.

 

[Madrin]

She only turned on the TPP when there was a huge backlash against it by the liberal voters. Before that she was one of its biggest supporters. If she could supports something like the TPP, you have to question her loyalty to the American people.

No, she didn't "change her view". She doesn't HAVE any views. Her "views" are whatever seems to be popular at the time and will get her votes. Do you understand the difference? At least Obama had an actual opinion that the invasion of Iraq was bad and voted against it. As much as I hate the TPP, I respect that Obama has an actual opinion that increasing the power of the American corporation worldwide increases America's power and so he supports that. Hillary only supports things until they stop being popular and then she opposes them.

Is it such a bad thing that Hillary changed her position on the TPP in response to the backlash? Elected officials are supposed to represent the interests of the voters, so if the voters oppose a piece of legislation, I would hope that their representatives would oppose it too. Seems like a weird thing to criticize her for, as if she would be more respectable if she had continued supporting the TPP in spite of the uproar.

 

[Darkgran]

Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Florida are very much in play. Those flip, it's President Trump.

Pennsylvania is not flipping...

 

[ColdPizza]

Again with this bullshit "beholden to corporate interests" charge with no credible evidence.

It's amazing.

Is it?

Among recent secretaries of state, Hillary Clinton was one of the most aggressive global cheerleaders for American companies, pushing governments to sign deals and change policies to the advantage of corporate giants such as General Electric Co., Exxon Mobil Corp., Microsoft Corp. and Boeing Co.

At the same time, those companies were among the many that gave to the Clinton family’s global foundation set up by her husband, former President Bill Clinton. At least 60 companies that lobbied the State Department during her tenure donated a total of more than $26 million to the Clinton Foundation, according to a Wall Street Journal analysis of public and foundation disclosures.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/hillary-clintons-complex-corporate-ties-1424403002

 

[Averon]

Cannot stomach voting for Hilary. I'll likely just vote down ticket.

 

[To Far Away Times]

As a democrat, I feel Hillary is out to screw me over. She is the least bad of the remaining options should she get the nomination over Bernie, but she is everything that is wrong with politics.

 

[SneakersSO]

Is it? She lobbies in favor of companies who turn around and donate her campaign money.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/hillary-clintons-complex-corporate-ties-1424403002

Thank you.

I've read about her flipping opinions the moment she gains from corporations in various sectors. I'm sorrybut corporations have been trying up with politicians against public interest for so long. She has been a shinig beacon of this for years and years.

I'd never vote for her. But for the people who will, I'm glad you have a candidate you believe in.

 

[Prodigal Son]

in terms of optimal outcomes when thinking like a game theorist, it is in fact the only way to vote in america. go for the person most likely to beat the one you hate most, that's it.

That's where we disagree man. Most rational way to vote? Maybe. You think so. I happen to think so as well. (It's why I'm voting Clinton in the GE)

But is it the only way to vote? The myriads of people who disagree with you might argue otherwise.

Is it?



http://www.wsj.com/articles/hillary-clintons-complex-corporate-ties-1424403002

+1

 

[ivysaur12]

Even if you remove Pennsylvania, there's still the possibility of Colorado and Virginia flipping, which would give the GOP the win (assuming Florida and Ohio also flip).

I'm not saying these things will happen. But they are possible. So for someone to say Trump cannot win is just wrong.

Virginia also will not flip. Super inelastic. Huge booming D voter base with a diminishing R base. If anything, it's getting bluer.

 

[aeolist]

That's where we disagree man. Most rational way to vote? Maybe. You think so. I happen to think so as well. (It's why I'm voting Clinton in the GE)

But is it the only way to vote? The myriads of people who disagree with you might argue otherwise.

well clearly there's other ways to vote, because people do it all the time. but if you like the republicans less than hillary then refusing to vote for hillary is by definition irrational behavior.

 

[anaron]

some of the replies in here are why mandatory voting needs to happen asap. ugh

 

[Novoitus]

some of the replies in here are why mandatory voting needs to happen asap. ugh

no thanks

 

[goomba]

If Hillary loses the general to the Trump or Cruz the Democatic party establishment will only have themselves to blame for not picking a candidate (Bern) who would motivate more people to go out and vote. Polls even back this showing Bernie stronger against Trump.

 

[sprsk]

If record turnouts keep up for him, while angry Sanders supporters stay home, it's possible.

Maybe not entirely likely, but never say never.

I think sanders folks will come around once the reality of a Trump presidency presents itself.

 

[Michael F. Assbender]

What good are any modest congressional gains going to do for the Democrats when they'll just end up getting slaughtered two years later in 2018?

A huge blow-out win where Hillary nets 400+ EV and the Dems regain control of the Senate would distract attention from the party's serious deficiencies and once again lure people into a false sense of security about the health of the party which will be shattered 2 years later in the mid-terms.

The cold truth is that the Democratic Party is an absolute disaster outside of presidential elections. You can whine about gerrymandering and voter apathy all you want, but poor strategy and leadership has just as much to do with their down-ballot struggles.

For the Democrats to become a strong party again at all levels of government there needs to be some serious changes in leadership and electoral strategy, and that's not going to happen if Hillary rolls to a blow-out victory.

I see a November loss changing the DNC for the worse.

"Our centrist candidate got clobbered in 2016 by a racist, sexist asshole. Obviously, in order to pull in the undecided voters, we need to make major steps to the right."

Pennsylvania is not flipping...

I addressed that later.

Virginia, Colorado, Ohio, and Florida very well may. That's still a GOP path.

The point is, paths exist.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

some of the replies in here are why mandatory voting needs to happen asap. ugh

If it turns into hate voting for Repubs, no thanks -_-

 

[eBay Huckster]

If Hillary loses the general to the Trump or Cruz the Democatic party establishment will only have themselves to blame for not picking a candidate (Bern) who would motivate more people to go out and vote. Polls even back this showing Bernie stronger against Trump.

Reminder that GE polls before the conventions are actually worthless (points 1 and 3).

 

[excelsiorlef]

That's example what this seemed to claim to me.





I completely agree.
Thing is, like I've established, people supported Sanders for different reasons. He had independent appeal. Being independent means you're pulling in a ton of varied, unaffiliated voters from a variety of backgrounds and political perspectives.
Not all of those voters (as we've seen) is anti-GOP. They just happen to be pro-Sanders.

Regardless, you're right: If you don't want a GOP president more than you don't want Clinton, I agree that the rational thing to do is to vote for Clinton.

Anyone who is pro-Sanders but not anti-GOP has absolutely no commitment to his ideals whatsoever

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

some of the replies in here are why mandatory voting needs to happen asap. ugh

.

 

[Suikoguy]

I think sanders folks will come around once the reality of a Trump presidency presents itself.

That's what happened in 2008, only difference was the ticket was only half total nutjob.
This time the nutjob is at the top of the ticket.

 

[goomba]

I think sanders folks will come around once the reality of a Trump presidency presents itself.

Some Bern supports are anti establishment so they could vote Trump over Hillary.

 

[minor effort]

If Hillary loses the general to the Trump or Cruz the Democatic party establishment will only have themselves to blame for not picking a candidate (Bern) who would motivate more people to go out and vote. Polls even back this showing Bernie stronger against Trump.

Who's "not picking" the winner when Clinton is winning SC by an absurd near-50% margin.

That isn't the work of a cigar-filled backroom.

 

[Michael F. Assbender]

some of the replies in here are why mandatory voting needs to happen asap. ugh

Not until the "I'm going to let the country burn if I don't get my own way" nonsense stops. Ugh.

 

[ColdPizza]

some of the replies in here are why mandatory voting needs to happen asap. ugh

It wouldn't be a freedom if it were mandatory.

 

[Aaronology]

That's example what this seemed to claim to me.

Voting against someone you dislike even when you can not vote for someone you do is not the same as claiming that voting against someone you dislike is the only reason there is to vote, period. I believe you're misrepresenting or misunderstanding the person you were quoting.


In any case, I wish people on the left would stop treating the Presidency like they're voting for Prom King or Queen. A number of posters have already made it clear they do not care so much for Bernie Sanders' politics as they do Bernie Sanders the politician. His personality has enthralled them and their interest in the election only extends so far as he is in it, nevermind that the fight for the things the man himself champions goes well beyond him. It's a frustrating condition that mostly seems to afflict only liberal minded voters and this thread has provided multiple examples of it.


Edit:

Anyone who is pro-Sanders but not anti-GOP has absolutely no commitment to his ideals whatsoever

^

 

[Anfang]

I think sanders folks will come around once the reality of a Trump presidency presents itself.

Nope

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

It wouldn't be a freedom if it were mandatory.

Can't tell if serious.

 

[Prodigal Son]

Anyone who is pro-Sanders but not anti-GOP has absolutely no commitment to his ideals whatsoever

You don't have to share all the ideals of someone you vote for. Have you considered that there are independents that are, as we speak, mulling over whether or not they should vote Sanders or Trump?

They are part of the electorate too. They matter too.

Voting against someone you dislike even when you can not vote for someone you do is not the same as claiming that voting against someone you dislike is the only reason there is to vote, period. I

I don't think I was claiming this. You might be misinterpreting my apparent misinterpretation.

In any case, I wish people on the left would stop treating the Presidency like they're voting for Prom King or Queen. A number of posters have already made it clear they do not care so much for Bernie Sanders' politics as they do Bernie Sanders the politician. His personality has enthralled them and their interest in the election only extends so far as he is in it, nevermind that the fight for the things the man himself champions goes well beyond him. It's a frustrating condition that mostly seems to afflict only liberal minded voters and this thread has provided multiple examples of it.

People like showing their support to politicians who they believe have a genuine motive to help them. No one is voting for Bernie's smile or fabulous hair. They don't like him because of reasons irrelevant to the presidency. Having a president to genuinely seeks the betterment of the American people is a good thing and that's ultimately what many Sanders' supporters are after.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Some Bern supports are anti establishment so they could vote Trump over Hillary.

And those people are not progressives, and clearly don't give a fuck about what Sanders is fighting for.

 

[Tesseract]

I think sanders folks will come around once the reality of a Trump presidency presents itself.

Absolutely not

 

[SneakersSO]

I think sanders folks will come around once the reality of a Trump presidency presents itself.

All of my RL friends are Bernie supports, and we all share the same sentiment in either not voting, or voting independent should Hillary get the nom. We disgusted with things that have gone on in the DNC and how they have built up around Hillary before the election cycle even began, and we already feel that the country would be in bad hands regardless of who won outside of Bernie.

Yes, some Bernie supporters will turn and vote for Hillary. Good for them. I can't, and won't.

 

[foxuzamaki]

Is it such a bad thing that Hillary changed her position on the TPP in response to the backlash? Elected officials are supposed to represent the interests of the voters, so if the voters oppose a piece of legislation, I would hope that their representatives would oppose it too. Seems like a weird thing to criticize her for, as if she would be more respectable if she had continued supporting the TPP in spite of the uproar.

I agree

 

[minor effort]

Absolutely not

There might be a few holdouts, but their numbers will dwindle.

Anger from the primary season will begin to subside following the conventions. Following a few Hillary and Trump debates.

People are angry now. I get it. But it's not even March. That anger won't last for everyone until November.

 

[excelsiorlef]

All of my RL friends are Bernie supports, and we all share the same sentiment in either not voting, or voting independent should Hillary get the nom. We disgusted with things that have gone on in the DNC and how they have built up around Hillary before the election cycle even began, and we already feel that the country would be in bad hands regardless of who won outside of Bernie.

Yes, some Bernie supporters will turn and vote for Hillary. Good for them. I can't, and won't.

And women, LGBT folk and minorities thank you for your tacit approval of their further and increased oppression.

Good luck getting that revolution 10 years down the road through a Supreme Court that is beholden to extreme conservative ideals.

 

[Michael F. Assbender]

Virginia also will not flip. Super inelastic. Huge booming D voter base with a diminishing R base. If anything, it's getting bluer.

Obama won Virginia in 2012 by barely more than 100,000 out of over 2,000,000.

If you remove Obama's two historic runs (that relied heavily on youth and non-white voters), Virginia has been solidly red for every election since at least Nixon in '72.

A flip is entirely possible.

 

[Aaronology]

All of my RL friends are Bernie supports, and we all share the same sentiment in either not voting, or voting independent should Hillary get the nom. We disgusted with things that have gone on in the DNC and how they have built up around Hillary before the election cycle even began, and we already feel that the country would be in bad hands regardless of who won outside of Bernie.

Yes, some Bernie supporters will turn and vote for Hillary. Good for them. I can't, and won't.

I am confused. You earnestly believe things will get worse for minorities, women, and the LGBT if Clinton is elected as opposed to a GOP nom? Or do you mean this isn't something you or your friends care about because those issues won't affect you?

And women, LGBT folk and minorities thank you for your tacit approval of their further and increased oppression.

Good luck getting that revolution 10 years down the road through a Supreme Court that is beholden to extreme conservative ideals.

We seem to be on the same wavelength here.

 

[minor effort]

Some Bern supports are anti establishment so they could vote Trump over Hillary.

Never have I been more tempted to avatar-quote somebody.

 

[SneakersSO]

And women, LGBT folk and minorities thank you for your help in oppressing them.

Here's the thing - I fully believe that we are liable to suffer under even more corporate oppression should Hillary win. Fully believe it. So, we're screwed either way.

 

[Melkezadek]

Absolutely not

All of my RL friends are Bernie supports, and we all share the same sentiment in either not voting, or voting independent should Hillary get the nom. We disgusted with things that have gone on in the DNC and how they have built up around Hillary before the election cycle even began, and we already feel that the country would be in bad hands regardless of who won outside of Bernie.

Yes, some Bernie supporters will turn and vote for Hillary. Good for them. I can't, and won't.

And women, LGBT folk and minorities thank you for your help in oppressing them.

Exactly. Fuck us, right?

I can't wrap my head around this. Completely missing everything that Bernie stands for.

"We're all in this together"

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

I am confused. You earnestly believe things will get worse for minorities, women, and the LGBT if Clinton is elected as opposed to a GOP nom? Or do you mean this isn't something you or your friends care about because those issues won't affect you?

Something tells me it's the latter.

 

[eBay Huckster]

Here's the thing - I fully believe that we are liable to suffer under even more corporate oppression should Hillary win. Fully believe it. So, we're screwed either way.

How much melanin does your group contain, combined?

 

[DontBeThatGuy]

Here's the thing - I fully believe that we are liable to suffer under even more corporate oppression should Hillary win. Fully believe it. So, we're screwed either way.

Selfish as fuck.

 

[Aaronology]

Here's the thing - I fully believe that we are liable to suffer under even more corporate oppression should Hillary win. Fully believe it. So, we're screwed either way.

Which groups would "suffer even more" with Hillary as opposed to a GOP nominee, Sneakers. And in what way, specifically.

Please elaborate.

 

[NeoXChaos]

Here's the thing - I fully believe that we are liable to suffer under even more corporate oppression should Hillary win. Fully believe it. So, we're screwed either way.

elaborate

 

[UnemployedVillain]

All of my RL friends are Bernie supports, and we all share the same sentiment in either not voting, or voting independent should Hillary get the nom. We disgusted with things that have gone on in the DNC and how they have built up around Hillary before the election cycle even began, and we already feel that the country would be in bad hands regardless of who won outside of Bernie.

Yes, some Bernie supporters will turn and vote for Hillary. Good for them. I can't, and won't.

No wonder some Bernie supporters get a bad rap. Some of you care more about your candidate getting the nomination more than you do about the issues or people affected by them...smh

And as fucked up as I might sound, I wouldn't be surprised if this sentiment was primarily held by his young white supporters who wouldn't be as affected by a Republican winning as those belonging to a minority group.

 

[hawk2025]

Here's the thing - I fully believe that we are liable to suffer under even more corporate oppression should Hillary win. Fully believe it. So, we're screwed either way.

No, you don't get it to have it both ways.

You give less of a shit about our rights than you give a shit about your fucking principles.

You don't fully believe it. You are fooling yourself or you are trying to fool us, because you KNOW what the importance of the Supreme Court is, at the very least. Don't hide that shit, own it.