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[Unknown Soldier]

Pretending what? She changed her view. That's good, right?

No, she didn't "change her view". She doesn't HAVE any views. Her "views" are whatever seems to be popular at the time and will get her votes. Do you understand the difference? At least Obama had an actual opinion that the invasion of Iraq was bad and voted against it. As much as I hate the TPP, I respect that Obama has an actual opinion that increasing the power of the American corporation worldwide increases America's power and so he supports that. Hillary only supports things until they stop being popular and then she opposes them.

 

[eBay Huckster]

3. TPP is a free-trade deal, globalization is real, it's here, and it's not going anywhere. If you're losing your job to the free market then tough, it's time to get retrained and find a new job in our post-industrial society. We are a free market society, not a protect your job at all costs society. Your job is not a right.

reminder that Tabris lives in Canada, which probably colours his opinion of the TPP substantially differently than that of a resident of possibly any other signatory country (on account of they apparently keep losing every single free trade agreement)

 

[TheYanger]

This is just due to the candidates having to smear their opponents for primaries, if either were to be finished they would throw their support behind the other, to prevent their followers from doing exactly what you describe.

 

[Cesare Borgia]

There's a lot of sexism at play but I think a lot of Clinton hate comes from a genuine distaste for 90s style politics being propagated by someone who simply is not a good politician. This looks worse in a post-Obama climate: she comes off as stale and bloodless, and her speeches rarely impress; people naturally compare her to Obama and are left disappointed.

Things get even uglier when you add an idealistic fringe candidate to the mix. Like Ron Paul, Sanders has very passionate supporters who don't know anything about politics and believe only he can save us from corruption. Everything becomes a purity test in which no politician can possibly match their man's record. Never mind that like Paul, Sanders has little to no accomplishments to speak of (outside of additions to various bills his supporters hate). Hillary Clinton is probably one of the worst candidates to have to deal with a "pure" candidate like that, and I get why his fans are so passionately against her.

And this ties into anger v pragmatism. Obama has achieved quite a bit without being a pure liberal, whereas most politicians who take an all-or-nothing approach don't get anything done. Social Security once only applied to white widows. It took years and decades to make the program what it is today. Likewise I'd expect Obamacare to have a similar history. Yet the typical Sanders fan looks at Obamacare as worthless because it doesn't include [insert item]. Good luck with that type of dogmatism in the real world.

 

[demon]

I find it satisfying that there's so much vocal hatred of Hillary Clinton. Of course I'd prefer her a hundred times over any of the Republican candidates, but people seem to want to turn a blind eye to the fact that she's just another bought and paid for corporatist politician who embodies what is wrong with our political system, and I think much of the "hatred" for her from the left centers around that fact and would be aimed at any establishment Democrat running for President in this political environment. People are getting fed up with politicians who are in the pockets of corporations and Wall Street, and as it turns out, Democrats in large numbers are tired of having to settle for another sleazy corporatist politician just because of what the Republican alternative would be. And to be quite frank, it's kind of disturbing to see so-called "progressives"/"liberals" shit their pants in anger and disgust every time somebody calls Hillary out for what she is.

Thanks for the fake quote? Sorry so was genuinely curious cause they say all over the news minorities support Hilary much more than Bernie, which is the exact opposite I see from my friends.

Eh? Your circle of friends is not the news media.

She opposes TPP and said the Iraq vote was a mistake. Congress was lied to, remember?

Oooh a mistake! She voted for possibly the worst fuckup in the past several decades of American history but she's so sorry! But somehow Bernie Sanders managed to have better judgement, saw through the bullshit, knew what the real cost of such a war would be, and opposed invading a country that didn't attack us. Sorry but this isn't something to overlook. I also look forward to voting for Russ Feingold this November, another non-shithead who managed to see through the bullshit.

So if you see Bernie out on the stump for Clinton come September, what then? If he's out there with a message of "If you supported my bid for the presidency, I encourage you to vote for Hillary this November."

Will his words mean nothing then?

What if.

 

[atr0cious]

I don't know then. How did everyone make it out to vote for Obama but not Congress?

Same reason they didn't in 2012? They thought the risk of "real change" was worth it?

 

[Fox Mulder]

She's just unlikable and has had a shady shit cloud over her for decades.

I'll absolutely loathe having to vote for her.

 

[border]

The sooner he drops out the more chance Hilary has to pivot to the right.

At this point he's either done after Super Tuesday or done after the 15th. That's not to say he will drop out, but that Clinton can pretty much disregard any threat he might pose. Shit last night she said that the national campaign starts tomorrow.

 

[Nvzman]

Yeah. He just wants to be able to lead the country and mess with millions of people's livelihood in the worst ways. But hey, he is funny and entertaining!

Enough with that.

How?
Can somebody please explain to me what the fuck you guys think a Republican president is going to do that is so terrible?
Not every republican president was a dipshit like George W. Bush.

 

[Steel]

Reagan's success in politics ruined the US's economic policy and has led to the decline of our civilization.

Every US president since has just nodded their head and gone along with the ride in terms of tax policy and deregulation of business.

It's like a the progressive movement of the early 20th century in reverse. If you like post-civil war industrialism and corporatism, Hilary Clinton, Barack Obama, Bill Clinton, George W, and George H are for you.

Ironically, George H Bush actually raised taxes.

 

[Tabris]

foxtrot3d, I'll respond to a bunch of your points soon, but I wanted to speak to globalization.

I agree that globalization is here to stay. The issue is while the rest of the modern world is transitioning from a 3rd industrial age into a 4th industrial age nation, your country still has the social policies of an early 3rd industrial age nation and won't be able to transition until that has changed. 4th industrial age will see things like basic income that needs to match with the resettlement of jobs and automation it brings, and you guys aren't even caught up with the basic social services of 3rd industrial age nations such as Universal Healthcare.

I honestly think China will outpace you soon as they are transitioning from a 2nd industrial age nation to a 3rd industrial age nation, implementing social services like Universal Healthcare by 2020. The only thing holding back China right now from transitioning is a culture of saving instead of consumption / consumerism. Once they get past that, they will be in a position to catch up to the US.

The rest of us will be in the 4th industrial age and looking to implement social services like Basic Income.

 

[Elfforkusu]

There's a lot of sexism at play but I think a lot of Clinton hate comes from a genuine distaste for 90s style politics being propagated by someone who simply is not a good politician. This looks worse in a post-Obama climate: she comes off as stale and bloodless, and her speeches rarely impress; people naturally compare her to Obama and are left disappointed.

Things get even uglier when you add an idealistic fringe candidate to the mix. Like Ron Paul, Sanders has very passionate supporters who don't know anything about politics and believe only he can save us from corruption. Everything becomes a purity test in which no politician can possibly match their man's record. Never mind that like Paul, Sanders has little to no accomplishments to speak of (outside of additions to various bills his supporters hate). Hillary Clinton is probably one of the worst candidates to have to deal with a "pure" candidate like that, and I get why his fans are so passionately against her.

And this ties into anger v pragmatism. Obama has achieved quite a bit without being a pure liberal, whereas most politicians who take an all-or-nothing approach don't get anything done. Social Security once only applied to white widows. It took years and decades to make the program what it is today. Likewise I'd expect Obamacare to have a similar history. Yet the typical Sanders fan looks at Obamacare as worthless because it doesn't include [insert item]. Good luck with that type of dogmatism in the real world.

I don't care about politics, I care about policy.

Or, in other words,

Reagan's success in politics ruined the US's economic policy and has led to the decline of our civilization.

Every US president since has just nodded their head and gone along with the ride in terms of tax policy and deregulation of business.

It's like a the progressive movement of the early 20th century in reverse. If you like post-civil war industrialism and corporatism, Hilary Clinton, Barack Obama, Bill Clinton, George W, and George H are for you.

^^^ this


Actually though, maybe I do care about politics a little bit -- I care when policy takes a back seat to it.

 

[slit]

Obama is just as bad as Hillary by the way. Point to a single thing Obama did that really contested with his major donors?

- He bailed out the banks and introduced extremely weak regulations as a response when much tougher regulations were required. No significant action was taken to punish for 2008 or more importantly to ensure it's not repeated (pre-2008 warning signs are already showing up in Wall Street again).
- He kept the current open market insurance-based healthcare system instead of moving to a single payer universal healthcare.
- He was one of the major proponents of the TPP which will be extremely harmful for the lower median American citizen.

He's bought out too. They all are except for Bernie and Trump.

People applaud Obama for what? Ending a war the US shouldn't have started in the first place? Killing Osama Bin Laden? Legalizing gay marriage (even though he didn't publicly support it until it was fashionable to do so much like Hillary)? Repealed Don't Ask Don't tell? Immigration reform (that immigration reform is still ugly compared to other countries).

It's incremental progression while still maintaining status quo of deregulation and general tax policy for donors. None of those things are impressive to the rest of the world. The only thing Obama did that is impressive is be elected in a country that has a very racist history.

The reason you feel that way about Obama is probably because he was promoted as some sort of messiah in 08. Guess what? It doesn't work that way in American politics. There is NO ONE on this planet - not Hillary, not Bernie, not even Elizabeth Warren if she had decided to run that could make the changes that would impress you. It just isn't going to happen in a short amount of time, short of a blood soaked revolution. No one is going to live up to your expectations if you set the bar too high.

 

[MHWilliams]

I appreciate that Hillary is progressive on social issues, which seem to be what matter in this election and are the main reason I will vote for her, but I'd be lying if I said that I cared for her, myself.

I don't care for her. But given what I actually have available to me and the outcome of that choice, if she gets the nomination, I'll vote for her.

Trump's path to the nomination has already emboldened all these latent racists and I feel that him winning would only validate them. That might not be a problem for your heterosexual white male voter, but for other like myself it's a big deal. The difference between Hilary and Trump is that Trump is trying to pass legislation banning Muslims from entering the country. Hilary is not. Trump is trying to push the idea that brown people are either illegal immigrants or terrorists. Hilary is not. By not voting and someone like Trump wins, I feel you are indirectly responsible for the outcome.

I'm voting for Bernie Sanders in the primaries, but if Hilary gets the nomination my vote is absolutely going to her.

Pretty much.

Man, I said at the beginning of this thread that I felt that view of Sanders' supporters is only from a vocal fringe, but some of y'all trying to wear me down.

 

[border]

No, she didn't "change her view". She doesn't HAVE any views. Her "views" are whatever seems to be popular at the time and will get her votes. Do you understand the difference? At least Obama had an actual opinion that the invasion of Iraq was bad and voted against it.

Obama did not vote against the Iraq War. He wasn't even a Senator when the Iraq War went to a vote. At least get some of the facts right.

 

[Giriath_89]

She supported Libya, and wants to continue fighting regimes abroad in Syria, has already derailed against Iran.

Simple fact is she is a candidate paid for by corporations and banks, and as such, she is beholden.

I'm really puzzled people aren't more upset about the elections. So much of it is public it's easy to see how many of the favored candidates are liars. They can promise to help with this and that, but have a record of doing just the opposite, and people are gullible enough to believe them on their word?

What does it matter who the people vote on anyway, when the candidates with the most presence are all paid and lobbied for by the same businesses and organizations? Many of the Western democracies are controlled by money, not people voting, but damn if the US isn't transparent about it.

 

[LittleBoots]

I mean, I'm a progressive, and I think the TPP is, on balance, a good idea. I am frankly annoyed that Hillary opposed it (but, I mean, Obama will probably just do it before he leaves office). So I don't agree?

Maybe you should be more specific about your critiques!

Both the far left and far right didn't like it because it was more of a corporatist thing. The point of it was to benefit big business because it lowered trade barriers.

 

[Kyosaiga]

Right, so yeah, you may not know this but, Hillary called for Wall Street regulation long before the Financial Crisis hit in 2008. on the volatility of the Subprime Mortgage Crisis and another in August. She then gave specifics for: Federal Housing Administration, more borrowing options for minorities and first-time homebuyers, more safeguards against predatory lending practices and policies intended to prevent foreclosures. What did she do next?

Sponsored a bill for said proposals, that she outlined in September of 2007, a full year before AIG nearly went up in smoke.

After that proposal? Gave a speech calling out derivatives and pissing off her Wall Street donors

To quote the NYT: ""She was early to call for tougher regulation of financial derivatives and private-equity markets."

March of the Following year what does she do? Releases a six point plan for regulating Wall Street including: oversight of derivatives, consumer protections broadened, new mortgage standards, plans to help keep families in their homes, reduce conflicts-of-interests, among others

If you think Hillary won't crack down on Wall Street, you're simply promoting bullshit talking points from the Sanders campaign.

Her record speaks for itself.

My post from earlier.

People who think she's some corporate shill literally live in another reality.

 

[Ziltoidia 9]

Fellow Sanders supporters. Just because we disagree with Clinton having ties to special interest, doesn't mean Trump is better. He is basically the caricature of the right (rich, crony capitalist, racist, militaristic) and shouldn't be even looked at as someone you should vote for.

 

[shoplifter]

Yeah, to hell with voting for The Donald. Jill Stein will get my vote if it comes down to it.

She opposes TPP and said the Iraq vote was a mistake. Congress was lied to, remember?



Again, she's against TPP.

"I was for it until I was against it."

 

[Aaronology]

How?
Can somebody please explain to me what the fuck you guys think a Republican president is going to do that is so terrible?
Not every republican president was a dipshit like George W. Bush.

I doubt you legit need anyone to point out how horrible the GOP has treated certain demographics and why minorities, women and LGBT in particular would find a Republican President unacceptable.

 

[demon]

There's a lot of sexism at play

Hillary Clinton stood next to Madeleine Albright as she "joked" that women would go to hell if they didn't vote for Hillary because she's a woman. You're right.

 

[Sobriquet]

No, she didn't "change her view". She doesn't HAVE any views. Her "views" are whatever seems to be popular at the time and will get her votes. Do you understand the difference? At least Obama had an actual opinion that the invasion of Iraq was bad and voted against it. As much as I hate the TPP, I respect that Obama has an actual opinion that increasing the power of the American corporation worldwide increases America's power and so he supports that. Hillary only supports things until they stop being popular and then she opposes them.

She's been pretty consistent with her views for the last 20+ years. Of course there are some outliers. I've been hearing that she's untrustworthy from the Republicans for as many years. Now liberals are using it as well.

And Obama did not vote against the Iraq invasion because he couldn't. He wasn't a Senator yet.

 

[xxracerxx]

Tabris is up late if he is still in Bangkok.

 

[Gaogaogao]

I'm with you OP Bernie first Hilary second

 

[NeoROCK]

I do not like Hillary

 

[Prototype Viktor]

Dude, she supported TPP in 2012 and then reversed her position later. Why are you even pretending otherwise?

everyone knows no one is allowed to change especially politicians. that's why people love religion! thousands of years can pass and you can't ever update.

Spoiler

politics are a religion

 

[mozfan12]

I'll probably end up voting Green Party. I'm in Cali so it's a given Hillary will win here.

In this case, it is truly a case of voting for the lesser evil if you are in a state that can tip the scales, if I were in a situation where my vote actually counted (thanks electoral college), I would definitely vote Hillary to avoid a worst outcome. I consider myself a socialist and neither parties represent my views. It's not hatred torwards a specific candidate (well in case of the Republicans, total hatred to those racists elitists fucks), it's that I don't feel I have a major party that truly represents lower and working class people unfortunately.

 

[Elfforkusu]

Fellow Sanders supporters. Just because we disagree with Clinton having ties to special interest, doesn't mean Trump is better. He is basically the caricature of the right (rich, crony capitalist, racist, militaristic) and shouldn't be even looked at as someone you should vote for.

I feel like the only rational justification for voting for Trump is a protest-vote meta-commentary on the political process.

"We have to pass the bill to find out what's in it."
vs
"We have to elect him to find out what he'd do as president."

There are far too many bad outcomes to actually follow through with that. Maybe if I showed up at the polling booth spectacularly drunk.

 

[legacyzero]

Her record speaks for itself.

Of course it does.

Let's hear what Elizabeth Warren has to say, also.

These are the conflicts of interest I'm worried about. Her "Hey Wall Street, CUT IT OUT" talk does nothing to dispute her actual actions.

 

[Tabris]

Tabris is up late if he is still in Bangkok.

It's 3:45am here. My sleeping pattern has been off due to crazy partying then crazy rest / beach / work days. I'm in Koh Samui to be exact.

 

[ItIsOkBro]

She opposes TPP and said the Iraq vote was a mistake. Congress was lied to, remember?



Again, she's against TPP.

Senator Clinton loves trade deals

Candidate Clinton hates trade deals

This pattern happened with NAFTA and it repeated TPP

Who know what stance President Clinton will take.

 

[Into]

There is a much bigger chance that Bernie fans will not vote at all, than vote for Trump just to spite Hillary.

Those largely being young voters, who do not have a great record of actually turning up. Hillary's own baggage wont make it easy to energize that crowd. I cannot think of a politican in the west with more baggage than Hillary has accumulated. But i dont expect them to turn up and then vote Trump in any significant numbers.

Its very difficult to win another election after 8 years, the "grass is greener" effect will always be there and difficult to maneuver around. A lot of people simply arent happy and some are out right angry, to tell them to just take another 4 years of the same is a hard pill to swallow, no matter how much you hate Republicans, Trump etc.

 

[samn]

She opposes TPP and said the Iraq vote was a mistake. Congress was lied to, remember?

Opposes as in current tense, right?

Let's see how she acts when she doesn't have Bernie Sanders to worry about.

I remember when the last establishment Democratic candidate made all sorts of noises about how the banks needed a talking to and that we shouldn't be sacrificing our civil liberties for the war on terror. now how did that turn out

 

[Ziltoidia 9]

TPP is going to be signed by Obama before he leaves, so Clinton really doesn't have to change her view again once she is in office.

 

[Dingens]

Hillary is what is wrong with American politics. I also think Obama was weak too. You've had weak politicians bowing down to big money interests for the last 3 decades in the US. Which has led to the decline of your country for the average citizen.

One day I hope to have my southern brothers join the rest of the modern western world in our "socialist" quality of life. But it won't be through someone like Hillary.

If your income is above the median income in the US (and in a safe position not susceptible to ebb and flow of deregulated Wall Street) and you're selfish by not caring for the rest of your fellow Americans - ignore everything I just said because your lifestyle is great and Hillary is a great choice for you.

I wholeheartedly agree. I'm not american so it should be of no concern to me but it's kinda Hard to grasp why people would wanna vote for her. (want not "have to" in this case)
She doesn't strike me as a good person at all and more like the Wolf in sheeps clothing. With Trump he's at least a Wolf in wolf's clothing. Even though he should be unelectable, he at least doesn't his agenda

 

[TyrantII]

It's Republican trolling and Green-Rainbow batshit. Tune them out. They're a very loud, but very small minority.

 

[Trouble]

everyone knows no one is allowed to change especially politicians. that's why people love religion! thousands of years can pass and you can't ever update.

Spoiler

politics are a religion

It's not even fair to say she (or anyone) changed position.

In 2012 support for TPP was support for a concept.
In 2015/2016 support for TPP is support for an actual agreement with specific terms.

Calling someone out for being in favor of an idea, but against a flawed implementation is either silly or willfully misleading.

 

[MHWilliams]

How?
Can somebody please explain to me what the fuck you guys think a Republican president is going to do that is so terrible?
Not every republican president was a dipshit like George W. Bush.

Republican president and Congress?

Probably cutting a few more regulations that people say they're up in arms about. Greater tax cuts. The EPA would be diminished or killed outright. Government funding on certain scientific issues would simply dry up. Tougher regulations on abortion. Probably dropping Obamacare. Things get much harder for Muslim Americans, immigrants, and LGBT as the GOP is able to pass legislation without a veto from the White House.

It'd be one thing if it was a Republican president and Democratic Congress. And the Supreme Court wasn't up for grabs in these terms. But it's not a Democratic Congress and the SC is up for grabs.

It'll kill even the taste of Sanders' agenda.

 

[params7]

Do not trust Hillary with TPP. Its like she was forced to come out against it. "Pretty plz Citibank.. I gotta get this to the voters". If she's serious lets see her condemn Obama for being for it.

Bernie supporter here.
Hillary vs Trump is worrying to me. Trump is not afraid of bringing up all the dirt of Hillary past. Trump is just gonna be hammering and hammering.

Oh it'll be beautiful. Trump will ride the populist anti-establishment waves against Hillary all the way to the White House.

 

[Cindro]

Bernie supporters who won't vote for Hillary wouldn't have voted in the first place.

It's embarrassing how easily they've succumbed to right wing talking points.

This is patently false. I'm mildly supportive of Bernie (which is more than I can say of any other candidate in the past decade), but I actively dislike Hillary. When she's the nominee, I will not vote for her on election day. Yeah, she's better than any Republican alternative, but a single vote matters naught anyway, so I'd not vote for her out of principle (the same way I would vote for Bernie out of principle)

 

[HylianTom]

Can somebody please explain to me what the fuck you guys think a Republican president is going to do that is so terrible?

He will appoint judges that will render Bernie's agenda dead. And not just for 2016. Corporate money becomes enshrined into our process; Citizens United stands for decades. The Voting Rights Act stays dead. Marriage equality goes on shaky legal ground via "religious freedom" bills. Corporations remain legal persons.

This does not poison the well of progressivism for just the next 4 years. This is for decades.

And - not shockingly - no one has countered this.

 

[pannagape]

The one you're not voting for?

Don't worry, if the one who is honestly progressive and cares about the American people is running this November, then I'll vote for her.

 

[Prodigal Son]

Virtually every person in my age group (college students) that I've spoken to strongly dislike her.

 

[slit]

How?
Can somebody please explain to me what the fuck you guys think a Republican president is going to do that is so terrible?
Not every republican president was a dipshit like George W. Bush.

TBH, I'd take a dipshit as president compared to what some GOP candidates are advocating for right now.

 

[Aaronology]

It's not even fair to say she (or anyone) changed position.

In 2012 support for TPP was support for a concept.
In 2015/2016 support for TPP is support for an actual agreement with specific terms.

Calling someone out for being in favor of an idea, but against a flawed implementation is either silly or willfully misleading.

Both.

Oddly enough, no one here seems to care that Sanders adjusted his position on gay marriage or gun reform in this rush to prop him up as some perfect politician that never strays from his ideals.

 

[Cocaloch]

He will appoint judges that will render Bernie's agenda dead. And not just for 2016. Corporate money becomes enshrined into our process; Citizens United stands for decades. The Voting Rights Act stays dead. Marriage equality goes on shaky legal ground via "religious freedom" bills. Corporations remain legal persons.

This does not poison the well of progressivism for just the next 4 years. This is for decades.

And - not shockingly - no one has countered this.

Not that I agree, but as I've mentioned earlier I think it's essentially acceleration theory.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

I don't care for her. But given what I actually have available to me and the outcome of that choice, if she gets the nomination, I'll vote for her.



Pretty much.

Man, I said at the beginning of this thread that I felt that view of Sanders' supporters is only from a vocal fringe, but some of y'all trying to wear me down.

Were there not Supreme Court seats on the line, I'd probably vote Jill Stein, but as long as the SCOTUS seats are on the line, this is the election among all elections to swallow one's pride.

 

[Kangi]

He will appoint judges that will render Bernie's agenda dead. And not just for 2016. Corporate money becomes enshrined into our process; Citizens United stands for decades. The Voting Rights Act stays dead. Marriage equality goes on shaky legal ground via "religious freedom" bills. Corporations remain legal persons.

This does not poison the well of progressivism for just the next 4 years. This is for decades.

And - not shockingly - no one has countered this.

It's the elephant in the room every time the subject comes around. It's kind of amazing how much it's tap danced around.

 

[Aaronology]

Do not trust Hillary with TPP. Its like she was forced to come out against it. "Pretty plz Citibank.. I gotta get this to the voters". If she's serious lets see her condemn Obama for being for it.



Oh it'll be beautiful. Trump will ride the populist anti-establishment waves against Hillary all the way to the White House.

Which states flip for him? Which demographics? How does he win back minorities?

Please elaborate.