Melkezadek
Member
This is the problem with the Democratic party.
The Amount of Hillary Hate Scares Me
- Thread starter LittleBoots
- Start date
- Status
This is the problem with the Democratic party.
Congrats -- your principles have the potential to shit on people's real, relevant, struggling rights.
MHWilliams
Member
No, a single vote absolutely matters. That's your voice, that's your civic duty in the process.
Again, this is Sanders talking:
Vote. Dear God, even voting Green is better than nothing.
Elfforkusu
Member
Most of this happens even if Hillary is president, IMO
But yes, it would be worse with a Republican.
.
At least vote for your local people and house/senate, folks. Write in a protest vote for the presidency if you must.
vote.
Uh... Hillary was First Lady when NAFTA went through.
None of that will happen if Hillary is President. All of that will happen if a Republican is elected. Not sure about Trump though.
And childish, to say the least.
User 463088
Banned
None of this happens if Hillary is President.
Please. Look up Citizens United. Please. Take a look at the person the group was trying to prevent from becoming President. Hint: her name rhymes with Tillary Hinton.
As to the topic, Hillary has dealt with shit for the last twenty years. She's been vilified for her hair, daring to have ambitions as a First Lady more important than trading cookie recipes, for taking up legislation to reform health care. She's been smeared and slandered. And guess what?
She's still standing. She can take the shit that is heaped her way and she can do it with dignity. It's going to take a lot more than some fervent Reddit posters to take her down. If the GOP couldn't do it after twenty years, it's just not going to happen.
Puck Beaverton
Banned
Just remember that's what conservatives want you to do. Not voting makes their vote matter more.
The answers I'll give will sound as ridiculous as saying Trump will get the nomination back in July of 2015.
So I'll refrain.
LittleBoots
Member
And this is the kind of mentality I'm referring to in making this thread.
Lowered trade barriers benefit every American.
Lowered trade barriers are how we got the iPhone.
Lowered trade barriers are part of why you have a computer to make this post at all.
The kneejerk ideological hatred of free trade on the left recently is pretty disheartening. Lowering the global standard of living is not the right way to move towards socialism. It's actually the opposite.
Unknown Soldier
Member
Partly correct. She was consistent in her views for most of the period after Bill's Presidency until 2012/2013 or so, when many of them suddenly reversed.
She is notable for not supporting gay marriage until as late as 2013. The exact timing of her flip on this is not really known.
She has long supported free trade agreements until 2012 when she flipped on TPP.
She voted for invasion of Iraq and then reversed her position on that. We all know this. It's amazing that John Kerry couldn't get away with this in 2004 but everyone's giving Hillary a free pass on this in 2016.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXzmXy226po
Obama opposing the invasion of Iraq in 2002, before he was a Senator. He says clearly he would have voted against it.
Big Baybee
Member
What would Bernie do?
XGRaViSmOrSX
Member
I personally don't have an issue choosing Clinton over Trump since the latter is obviously going to bury this country. I just don't like that she will likely get the nom again in 2020 and set up what amounts to a clinton/bush revolving door for the past 30 years broken up by Obama. It just leaves me uninspired to really give a shit about the presidential election. I'll still be voting down ticket but living in NYS the presidential election has already been decided for the democrats.
However, If I did live in a red state I would obviously swallow my pride and feelings and do my part to keep a republican out of the white house, especially Trump. Since I don't, I can just vote down ticket and try to swing the rest of the government back to somewhere near sanity.
However, If I did live in a red state I would obviously swallow my pride and feelings and do my part to keep a republican out of the white house, especially Trump. Since I don't, I can just vote down ticket and try to swing the rest of the government back to somewhere near sanity.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Even I know at this point that if bernie gets the nom its over. He will get smeared as an atheist socialist that wants to being communism.
Hillary has to be the one, even if you dont like it.
Hillary has to be the one, even if you dont like it.
Tesseract
Banned
Donald is going to eat a lot of Bernie supporters, there's no way around that. He's an unbought man who singlehandidly both won the republican primary and rekt the GOP forever. Young people eat that shit up. He's gonna pivot center with a sickly strange graceful trumpet of big new Yorker style beatdowns. No bought institution, person will be safe.
punished donald dumpter, a tremendous fusion of fdr and and lbj and raegan and vegeta and Jed from the West wing starring Martin sheen as Jed let Trump be trump
ThisGuy
Member
What about gays getting married? Or turned away from business? What about progress with police brutality against blacks? It's been my experience that repubs are team blue wall. What about immigrants? What about the poor? What about women's rights? Foreign policy? Refugees?
What about them? The democrats, Hillary included, may not do the best job, but what kind of job do you think the Republicans will do? One vote may not matter but you're not alone in feeling this way. Your issues matter too, but if yours are not met maybe consider the issues of others, your vote will directly help them. Maybe consider it.
I'm aware. You said he voted against it.
This post nails it.
She's not as bad as the GOP, not as bad as Trump, Cruz, Rubio... but she's still bad. EDIT: To clarify, she's, like, way way way way way better than anyone in the other party. At the very worst, she's status quo, rather than outright hurtful like those guys.
MHWilliams
Member
You can find NAFTA support from her after Bill but before running for president. First Lady Clinton definitely supported it tho.
Unknown Soldier
Member
Sorry. That statement was wrong. Obama was a state Senator at the time, not a US Senator.
These arguments are just the worst.
Have any of you bought an Apple product, even a single song on iTunes? Congrats, you've contributed to the suicide of workers in Apple's unethical overseas factories!
Do any of you ever shop at Walmart? Wow, how terrible of you - you must adamantly strive to oppress minimum wage workers!
Have any of you ever driven a car? Jee, your actions have shit on the health of our planet!
I honestly don't even know how to take these posts seriously - if I had the power control America, of course I'd do everything I could to make it as fair and as comfortable for all. But I never will, and pretending my single vote for Hillary in November (in a state that is always Blue no matter what anyway) will "hep the cause" in any perceptible way that is above statistical zero is the most laughably asinine thing I've read in a long time.
Gordon Shumway
Banned
FUCK YOU, I GOT MINE
JinjoUnchained
Member
Again, it comes down to polling. The Democratic Party wouldn't support Hillary if she was polling at 10%. They also wouldn't support similar Hillary style candidates in the future if she lost in the general election with 30% of the vote. So you enable such candidates by doing the "lesser of two evil" approach bc it prevents the bottom from falling out of her numbers. Yeah, it's probably too late in this cycle, but what about future election cycles?
My position is that "these are the current options presented", in your words, because of the "lesser of two evils" mindset.
legacyzero
Banned
Yes, vote in your state and local elections! VOTE!
Yep. Get your asses out there and vote!
Cindi Mayweather
Member
What has Hilary done to be loved?
minor effort
Banned
Please do.
And that goes for everyone here. Even if you maintain your position not to vote for either the Democratic or Republican nominees this fall, I encourage every American of voting age here to vote downticket nonetheless. Vote local.
Dice
Pokémon Parentage Conspiracy Theorist
Me if America chooses Trump or Establishment
On the one hand, I'm amazed at the pessimism Hillary supporters have at what could be done if we all actually went by our principles rather than trying to game theory tiny wins. On the other hand, I'm amazed at the optimism with which Hillary voters seem to have in regard to our country and the world holding on okay with more of the status quo trajectory. I don't believe she would make even a little progress, I believe the engines of destruction in establishment politics have us running headlong into a wreck so fast that it completely outpaces anything she is trying to settle for. I see me and the country and world getting fucked in some measure by her or Trump. We're simply out of time to be dicking around with this lesser of two evils bullshit. It isn't about taking the necessary hit, it's about getting the fuck out of the way of the oncoming train. If America wants to settle for that because they are too scared to even try for what is right, then that's it.
As for trying to put blame on persons such as myself in the outcome of a Trump win, I find that completely ridiculous. If committed reform voters can be blamed for a Trump victory because they didn't settle for establishment, the people who voted establishment when they would have preferred reform simply because they had no faith in reform succeeding can be blamed for making the reform option so weak.
If you're going to try that game theory bullshit there are two realities you also need to reconcile to the situation. First, you accept the fact Trump voters are absolutely not backing down from anti-establishment and choose to adjust your vote accordingly, but then you see Bernie supporters likewise absolutely not backing down from their anti-establishment stance and don't adjust for them but instead blame them? That makes no sense.
Second, Trump could be seen as locking in to destruction, or he can be seen merely as a disruption. Remember how there was a huge backlash in the midterms toward GOP that blocked up many of Obama's motions? That can swing right back if people are so horrified with Trump, and that could likewise give momentum to a stronger reform movement. Would this accelerationism work? Who the fuck knows! That's why game theory is bullshit and you should vote for what is right. But if you're going to be all about game theory you need to acknowledge how Trump could be more effective for accelerating reform than sticking with the deathly slow establishment method.
On the one hand, I'm amazed at the pessimism Hillary supporters have at what could be done if we all actually went by our principles rather than trying to game theory tiny wins. On the other hand, I'm amazed at the optimism with which Hillary voters seem to have in regard to our country and the world holding on okay with more of the status quo trajectory. I don't believe she would make even a little progress, I believe the engines of destruction in establishment politics have us running headlong into a wreck so fast that it completely outpaces anything she is trying to settle for. I see me and the country and world getting fucked in some measure by her or Trump. We're simply out of time to be dicking around with this lesser of two evils bullshit. It isn't about taking the necessary hit, it's about getting the fuck out of the way of the oncoming train. If America wants to settle for that because they are too scared to even try for what is right, then that's it.
As for trying to put blame on persons such as myself in the outcome of a Trump win, I find that completely ridiculous. If committed reform voters can be blamed for a Trump victory because they didn't settle for establishment, the people who voted establishment when they would have preferred reform simply because they had no faith in reform succeeding can be blamed for making the reform option so weak.
If you're going to try that game theory bullshit there are two realities you also need to reconcile to the situation. First, you accept the fact Trump voters are absolutely not backing down from anti-establishment and choose to adjust your vote accordingly, but then you see Bernie supporters likewise absolutely not backing down from their anti-establishment stance and don't adjust for them but instead blame them? That makes no sense.
Second, Trump could be seen as locking in to destruction, or he can be seen merely as a disruption. Remember how there was a huge backlash in the midterms toward GOP that blocked up many of Obama's motions? That can swing right back if people are so horrified with Trump, and that could likewise give momentum to a stronger reform movement. Would this accelerationism work? Who the fuck knows! That's why game theory is bullshit and you should vote for what is right. But if you're going to be all about game theory you need to acknowledge how Trump could be more effective for accelerating reform than sticking with the deathly slow establishment method.
That's what I'm doing if Bernie is out.
XGRaViSmOrSX
Member
I made sure this last November that everyone in my house had voted. We managed to get rid of a local shitlord running for DA that had no business running in the first place let alone be in politics as long as she had. Felt really great. Suffolk county almost had a few close calls but eventually stuck with their incumbents. At least Nassau county is starting to wake up to the bullshit and lies.
This. Can someone on this board who says Trump will win please explain how?
Oh that's right you can't because its not happening....
eBay Huckster
Member
On the bright side of the bolded, it's almost certainly going to finally end in 2024 - Chelsea doesn't seem to have aspirations for the office and the Bushes' last chance
But yeah, in places like NYS you're definitely well in the right to only vote downticket, imo - the City's gonna clinch the presidential election by itself, so you might as well make your vote matter in other ways.
Third Strike
Member
Still got George P. Bush around. I bet he'll run in the 2020s.
shadowsdarknes
Member
The Hillary for Prison slogan is generally right wing nonsense.
MidgarBlowedUp
Member
I don't hate Hillary, but I sure as Hell don't trust her.
I'd much rather have her than any GOP candidate though, but I'd take a lump of coal over any GOP candidate.
I'd much rather have her than any GOP candidate though, but I'd take a lump of coal over any GOP candidate.
minor effort
Banned
Eh. Jeb flopped hard enough to probably put that to rest.
Macho Madness
Member
You can't be serious about wanting to change the country if your ideals begin and end with voting for a president. Get this: You are always going to have to choose between the lesser of two evils when it comes to that. No candidate is going to be perfect, no one candidate is always going to promote and be for all of your ideals. I recommend picking one or the other because the alternative could be a lot worse but that's entirely up to you.
What actually changes things is voting locally. Vote for a governor that shares your vision, vote for a representative that wants to change your area for the better, vote for the mayor that has a plan to keep your city growing. Living or dying on the president makes you look politically ignorant and will only make you unhappier in the end.
Changing the country at a federal level is SUPER HARD. It's much less so locally.
What actually changes things is voting locally. Vote for a governor that shares your vision, vote for a representative that wants to change your area for the better, vote for the mayor that has a plan to keep your city growing. Living or dying on the president makes you look politically ignorant and will only make you unhappier in the end.
Changing the country at a federal level is SUPER HARD. It's much less so locally.
plagiarize
Banned
To the OP, take solace in this.
We heard a lot of the same sort of rhetoric from Clinton supporters in 2008. "Obama won't get the female vote! They'll stay home or write in Hillary's name! Vote Hillary!"
When she lost the nomination and she went all in on endorsing Obama and campaigning for him, what happened? Obama won the female vote in the general.
I don't doubt that Sanders when Clinton inevitably wins (which I think is safe to say now) will do everything he can to get his supporters out to vote for Clinton... and I don't doubt that the vast majority of his supporters will do just that.
We heard a lot of the same sort of rhetoric from Clinton supporters in 2008. "Obama won't get the female vote! They'll stay home or write in Hillary's name! Vote Hillary!"
When she lost the nomination and she went all in on endorsing Obama and campaigning for him, what happened? Obama won the female vote in the general.
I don't doubt that Sanders when Clinton inevitably wins (which I think is safe to say now) will do everything he can to get his supporters out to vote for Clinton... and I don't doubt that the vast majority of his supporters will do just that.
Voting green is better than nothing? Voting green would be just as ineffective for Hillary, which seems to be the whole point of this thread. Of course Sanders wants to encourage the importance of a vote - that doesn't mean that in actual reality there's any reason to do so other than for symbolic reasons.
I assure you, the delegates from my state will not be tied in a deadlock with my vote as the deciding factor.
All causes I obviously feel strongly about. But I can make far more of a difference on those issues in my personal life, just by having conversations with people about them, than I ever could by voting for Hillary.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
To not vote is an active decision to not have your opinion heard.
If you actually think your vote doesn't matter, why would you vote for Bernie? No one gives a shit about your principles in the end--only your vote matters. And it does matter.
Suikoguy
I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
When you start using Right Wing talking points you need to take a good hard look at how you got to where you are.
minor effort
Banned
Voting Green for president as long as it gets you to the polls and voting for state and local elections while you're there is at least better than not voting at all.
plagiarize
Banned
That same sort of mentality is responsible for people under 30 being really under represented. Because enough of them think voting is pointless. If they start turning out in large numbers and become a sought after voting block, you would see way more politicians targeting the under 30s with policies that appeal to them.
That's how it works. If you're vindictive or fickle with your vote or you never bother voting... you'll never get representation.
And you aren't going to change the system from the top down. As others have said, vote in every election you can, from the town elections up to the presidential ones.
Box of Kittens
Banned
It's clear that a great many people have (and elsewhere) no clue how the US political system works. The Supreme Court has the power to overturn legislative acts and yet people here are arguing we should just let the Republicans have this election because it'll somehow lead to some fantasy progressive president getting in office and magically fixing everything. Never mind they'd likely be faced with a 6-3 conservative majority on the Supreme Court. Never mind that the president can only sign legislation if Congress passes it. Never mind the power held by state governments. Too many people believe the president will fix everything and anything that happens that doesn't live up to our ideals is the president's fault. Just look at the people blaming Obama for the US not having single payer healthcare.
Hoho for breakfast
Member
Ok. Hillary scares me. Hillary supporters scare me. I believe she is a complete fake. She is absolutely politics as usual. That I feel that way must baffle some of you because you think I'm wrong for whatever reason, just as you supporting her is baffling to me. One of us is right and one of us is wrong.
This is Hillary and her stances (or is it? who knows!):
She voted for the Iraq war...but is now against.
She was against gay marriage...but now is for it.
She was against illegal immigrants...but is now for them earning a path to citizenship.
She voted for the Patriot Act. Twice. Hey some consistency!
And the list goes on. She is a complete fraud imo. And people don't care because Bernie is "unelectable" or can't get anything done or some other nonsense that you've been force fed.
This is Hillary and her stances (or is it? who knows!):
She voted for the Iraq war...but is now against.
She was against gay marriage...but now is for it.
She was against illegal immigrants...but is now for them earning a path to citizenship.
She voted for the Patriot Act. Twice. Hey some consistency!
And the list goes on. She is a complete fraud imo. And people don't care because Bernie is "unelectable" or can't get anything done or some other nonsense that you've been force fed.
This is so patently ridiculous in so many ways.
You make ridiculous, illogical points and dismiss Nobel-winning research in the same post.
I have no words. So, so ridiculous.
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