I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Cause your life is clown status.
Yes sir. So if GAF is a haven for these kinds of people, well then honey, I'm home.
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The Big Ass Superior Thread of Learning Japanese
- Thread starter RevenantKioku
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Cause your life is clown status.
Yes sir. So if GAF is a haven for these kinds of people, well then honey, I'm home.
You're constantly forced to make corrections on translations on the gaming side. You're a hero. lol
This is when you know you have nothing left to live for
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
I kind of wish my personality didn't make me care so much about that stuff and let me just ignore it... Not sure why it always bothers me so much to see people act so confident while simultaneously being so wrong.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Aka the internet
Just imagine the insane misinformation that would spread around if you didn't.
Fluent is a bit of a dumb word.
To me it just means speak at a natural pace, being able to work around lack of knowledge.
In that regard, in most situations I am fluent. If it means anything to do with being close to a native-level, I am most definitely not. Either way, I would never use the word, as it's vague.
There's bits in Fire Emblem If now (currently playing it) that I definitely don't get.
To me it just means speak at a natural pace, being able to work around lack of knowledge.
In that regard, in most situations I am fluent. If it means anything to do with being close to a native-level, I am most definitely not. Either way, I would never use the word, as it's vague.
There's bits in Fire Emblem If now (currently playing it) that I definitely don't get.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Don't see what's vague. You're not fluent (using your description).
Well i can confirm 100% he is almost level native in Japanese. (I know him in person)
I'm not even fluent in my main language... .
Well, okay. Honestly, I would love to see more people like that in the thread.
Perhaps if they're fluent and not studying Japanese, they have no reason to be in this thread.
New year is here! Renewing my goal of learning Japanese. I started Heisig a few years ago and still have my old decks. I was using Anki to go through them and I realized there are a lot of features in the program I don't understand, like leeching.
I really like the mobile version for the whiteboard feature as well, instead of having reams of Kanji lying around the house. I've worked on reviewing whatever was up in my deck for the past two days. About ready to flip on 20 new cards and start moving forward again.
I really like the mobile version for the whiteboard feature as well, instead of having reams of Kanji lying around the house. I've worked on reviewing whatever was up in my deck for the past two days. About ready to flip on 20 new cards and start moving forward again.
who took N2 last year? or did everybody take N1?
if you took N2 last year pls stand up.
This post got lost in between! Honestly, you should be fine with those, I haven't used them personally but they'll be good to at least get you into a structure. You could really learn hiragana and katakana without a book but you're starting from scratch so no big deal. plus 9 pounds looks like a tiny amount of money lol. hm... i actually don't know where a beginner should really begin..i can't even remember what i was doing at the start. let's just say it was very slow and lazy study.
if you took N2 last year pls stand up.
This post got lost in between! Honestly, you should be fine with those, I haven't used them personally but they'll be good to at least get you into a structure. You could really learn hiragana and katakana without a book but you're starting from scratch so no big deal. plus 9 pounds looks like a tiny amount of money lol. hm... i actually don't know where a beginner should really begin..i can't even remember what i was doing at the start. let's just say it was very slow and lazy study.
Yeah, but stories of where they were when they started and how they got there with the language can be motivating.
Aizo
Banned
He's fluent. I've talked to Japanese people with him.
Yes, I made a snarky comment. Yes, I was wrong. We were having a discussion about the varying definitions of fluent, and how it's just thrown around so easily sometimes. I just chose a post at random, but I shouldn't have singled anyone out.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Hasn't that person posted in this thread lol.
I wouldn't expect anyone at such a high level to post in a thread like this. I can barely get through two threads on the jgo subreddit before closing the tab in disgust.
The only reason I hang out here is because I get banned in pretty much every other thread.
I wouldn't expect anyone at such a high level to post in a thread like this. I can barely get through two threads on the jgo subreddit before closing the tab in disgust.
The only reason I hang out here is because I get banned in pretty much every other thread.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
I just like to help people out 
Assuming it's not a simple "hey, translate this!" thing.
Assuming it's not a simple "hey, translate this!" thing.
Aizo
Banned
Yeah, even when I'm at a high level, I'd come by to help people in the future.I just like to help people out
Assuming it's not a simple "hey, translate this!" thing.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
So never.
chicagocubsfan
Member
Started looking at learning Japanese the other day. Got a free book off Amazon called "Speak Japanese in 90 days", which I doubt will happen.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B014RTDPBA/?tag=neogaf0e-20
I do think the lessons they are doing are pretty good though, just introducing me to hiragana and the like. Kinda feels like the Italian lessons I did in HS.
Will probably supplement it with something in the next few weeks when I have more time.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B014RTDPBA/?tag=neogaf0e-20
I do think the lessons they are doing are pretty good though, just introducing me to hiragana and the like. Kinda feels like the Italian lessons I did in HS.
Will probably supplement it with something in the next few weeks when I have more time.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Gromph you are the one person I will meet up with when I get back to Tokyo in April.
Sure man, whenever you want!
what the fuck is this shit
?
1. have we really reached a point with tech where this is possible?
2. is this guy serious with this shit?
3. should i stop learning Japanese and buy this?
yeah yeah it's probably tweaked/faked/staged (the translations)/exaggerated but that's absolutely crazy??
get that crowdfunding money?
to desu
1. have we really reached a point with tech where this is possible?
2. is this guy serious with this shit?
3. should i stop learning Japanese and buy this?
yeah yeah it's probably tweaked/faked/staged (the translations)/exaggerated but that's absolutely crazy??
get that crowdfunding money?
TheSporkWithin
Member
http://www.dailydot.com/technology/logbar-ili-wearable-foreign-language-translator-ces-2016/
There were several times where, while the translation was close it didn't quite match with what he had actually said. Particularly "I should thank your parents" coming out as 感謝したい. That's a fair translation, but I can't believe that the device jumped to that instead of べき or しんければならない, unless he specifically programmed the device for these specific dialogues.
OpinionatedCyborg
Member
charisma man just got an upgrade
OpinionatedCyborg
Member
of course it isn't normal, and it doesn't work in the uk. western women are charisma man's kryptonite
i'm disappointed in myself that i thought that such a thing was even gonna be possible.
i mean maybe it does work, but i really truly thought that this wasn't one of those times where a small start-up company talks big and then fails to back it up after they take all the moneys.
RIP me.
double RIP because I now have to cancel flights to the UK.
i mean maybe it does work, but i really truly thought that this wasn't one of those times where a small start-up company talks big and then fails to back it up after they take all the moneys.
RIP me.
double RIP because I now have to cancel flights to the UK.
I find myself at crossroads. I need a language for my degree, and I'm trying to decide between Japanese and German. On the one hand I love Japanese culture and cinema, and have always wanted to live there even for a short time. On the other everyone says German is easier, but I'm less interested in it, and don't see myself giving it the time and attention it would require because of my disinterest. The textbooks for both classes are expensive as fuck, so once I decide I'm pretty much stuck. I really don't want to take the "easier" way and regret it.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Lol. I grew up on the border of a German speaking country. German is not easy. I'd put Jgo and Dgo at the exact same level of difficulty for everything but reading, honestly.
shanshan310
Member
The one that interests you will be easier in the end I think. If you aren't interested you'll lose it. Also, while German is bound to be easier due to it's closeness with English, the grammar is much more difficult than japanese grammar. Follow your heart!
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
Exactly this. No language is necessarily hard to learn well if you're passionate about learning it and have the right environment to immerse yourself in it.
Obviously, German is a hell of a lot closer to English, but that really doesn't mean much in the end.
marimorimo
Member
Interesting to hear everyone's thoughts about fluency. That's what I consider fluent "for a gaijin." I've done most of those with no problems--not really a daunting task since services tend to be very good in Japan. Receptionists and customer-facing staff are very accommodating and take the effort to explain everything to the last detail. I have a much harder time doing the same things in my own country due to the system and workforce's general incompetence.
My own description of fluent (with no caveats) is nothing short of native level. Like writing a publishable essay or thesis with very minimal edits required, participating in a political debate on live TV, engaging with a Japanese person not only as a client but also as a vendor (selling yourself or your services to a Japanese). Maybe I just have ridiculously high standards.
Arguably, these things might be difficult even for a Japanese person. Especially for writing and being in the position of vendor, a lot of what makes it difficult isn't grammar per se, but 言葉遣い (careful choice of language for the right situation and time). Unfortunately, I don't think this can be taught by any grammar book or TV show. You have to experience it yourself and learn from your (and others') mistakes. That is if you are fortunate enough to realize your own mistakes or have others correct you. Unfortunately the heavily contextual nature of Japanese makes it a virtual minefield when communicating, whether the speaker realizes it or not. That's my main reason for NOT advocating language study without output and feedback.
A few months back, a gaffer posted about working on a Skype instant translator beta and doing hour-long conversations with other staff (English to Spanish and vice versa) and described the experience as smooth. Though the post can't be verified for accuracy, I do expect that automation will replace translation in the not-so-distant future. Even google translate can come up with very usable translations depending on language (like Spanish or Italian) as long as you're not aiming for 100% accuracy. It's still pretty much a crap shoot for heavily context-based languages like Japanese and Korean, but algorithms are being continuously developed and technology grows exponentially year by year. I'd give it a decade at most before human translation becomes borderline obsolete. Toss to that the rapid spread of English as de facto world language. As someone who earns her living mostly by selling language skills, it's not a pretty picture so I need to work on a contingency plan.
Though I predict there would be lesser demand for professional translators/interpreters, I think fluent multi-linguals in specialty fields would still be very much in demand. People still prefer to communicate with other people where it matters. That's why as a multilingual, I always make it a point to communicate in the language (and even accent at times) that is the most familiar to the person I am speaking to. A foreign tongue or unfamiliar accent is like a wall, even when both people speak the same language. It's Psychology 101, but the more I am in tune with the other person's speech, the more they open up to me.
Well that was creepy, haha.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Putting aside the fact my example of partaking in a political process inherently implies being able to digest and express opinion on political issues (not sure what tv has to do with it), at this point it just seems like you're being needlessly contrarian - or don't understand Zefah and I were talking about cultural fluency being a large part of linguistic fluency. Your examples seemed to focus on insanely advanced displays of technical knowledge or industry knowledge.
99% of people in any country could not write a 'publishable essay or thesis with very minimal edits required.' Japanese, German, British, whatever. This is a skill acquired through actual academic experience and is something people specifically dedicate their studies to. It's a skill that can enhance and exhibit your cultural or linguistic fluency, but is not something inherent to native language use. So I guess the majority of natives in a culture are not fluent.
Selling yourself or services is an actual technical skill taught in schools, taught in businesses, and learned through life. 99% of people in any country don't know how to properly sell an idea, service, product, or themselves. That is why the position of sales exists. This has nothing to do with cultural or linguistic fluency, it something you can layer on top of those two things to make yourself advanced in a specific field. So I guess the majority of natives in a culture are not fluent.
I'm not trying to purposely be obtuse, I get what your point is, I just think you're purposely stretching your examples to some how show that they require more fluency. They require more technical knowledge, not fluency.
I have actually seen this argument a lot in the real world. Someone tries to defend their language skill by saying something like 'I'm more fluent than that guy, I translate legal documents!' Translating legal documents is surely an advanced skill, but it has nothing to do with fluency. I could hand a 45 year old bank manager a legal document in their native language right now and they would have no clue whatsoever how to interpret it other than (and maybe not even with 100% accuracy) being able to verbally read it out loud. They're not fluent I guess.
99% of people in any country could not write a 'publishable essay or thesis with very minimal edits required.' Japanese, German, British, whatever. This is a skill acquired through actual academic experience and is something people specifically dedicate their studies to. It's a skill that can enhance and exhibit your cultural or linguistic fluency, but is not something inherent to native language use. So I guess the majority of natives in a culture are not fluent.
Selling yourself or services is an actual technical skill taught in schools, taught in businesses, and learned through life. 99% of people in any country don't know how to properly sell an idea, service, product, or themselves. That is why the position of sales exists. This has nothing to do with cultural or linguistic fluency, it something you can layer on top of those two things to make yourself advanced in a specific field. So I guess the majority of natives in a culture are not fluent.
I'm not trying to purposely be obtuse, I get what your point is, I just think you're purposely stretching your examples to some how show that they require more fluency. They require more technical knowledge, not fluency.
I have actually seen this argument a lot in the real world. Someone tries to defend their language skill by saying something like 'I'm more fluent than that guy, I translate legal documents!' Translating legal documents is surely an advanced skill, but it has nothing to do with fluency. I could hand a 45 year old bank manager a legal document in their native language right now and they would have no clue whatsoever how to interpret it other than (and maybe not even with 100% accuracy) being able to verbally read it out loud. They're not fluent I guess.
Aizo
Banned
I don't understand how this is fluent. This means that most native speakers of a language aren't fluent. That's nonsense. I think expert has what I would say to that, plus more, covered.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
It's already been posted by Expert and Aizo, but by this definition, just about no one would be fluent in any language. Those are ridiculously high standards.
Also, I don't think anyone is advocating for language study without output and feedback, should that option be readily available. It's not for a lot of people.
Maybe I'm misinterpreting, but the bolded seems like a damn terrible idea to me. If you happen to be proficient in the accent, that's one thing, but trying to mimic the person's accent, especially if they're speaking in a language that isn't their native tongue, could come across as downright offensive.
Thanks for the advice guys, I dropped German and got the last spot of the Japanese class. Before I was dreading having to take a language but after making the switch I'm so excited to get started. This is the first semester that I'm actually looking forward to.
The class is using Nakama 1 and the workbook. People have recommended I pick up Genki to supplement that. Thoughts?
The class is using Nakama 1 and the workbook. People have recommended I pick up Genki to supplement that. Thoughts?
Nakama 1 and Genki 1 are going to cover a lot of the same ground, so I wouldn't actually advise that.
Some people like to put their own language skill as the minimum bar for what's considered fluency.
I will agree with Expert in that fluency is closer to being able to do certain kind of large purchases, read needed documentation and small print, being able to put your kid in school, etc... Basically what any kind of Japanese person would be expected to be able to do.
I could ask my Japanese wife to read some stuff related to the game development industry and she would be able to read it but not understand it (too many technical terms that I do understand) and I would never consider her less fluent than me, that would be stupid.
So yeah...
I will agree with Expert in that fluency is closer to being able to do certain kind of large purchases, read needed documentation and small print, being able to put your kid in school, etc... Basically what any kind of Japanese person would be expected to be able to do.
I could ask my Japanese wife to read some stuff related to the game development industry and she would be able to read it but not understand it (too many technical terms that I do understand) and I would never consider her less fluent than me, that would be stupid.
So yeah...
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
Didn't know you had gotten married, Mik!
Might have been a long time ago, but congratulations!
Might have been a long time ago, but congratulations!
Hey! Thank you man! I got married just about 3 years ago! We had been living together for many years already so we thought, hey, why not!
Bonen no Max'd
Banned
Hi everyone! I've taken 3 semesters of Japanese and will be starting my fourth next week. So far we've gone through the first 15 chapters of the Genki textbooks and I was wondering, for self-practice would it be better to practice the N4 or N5 tests at my level? I love studying but when I'm not in a class I get a little lost on where to practice and usually just do the practice problems in the textbooks but I was wondering if it would be better to practice the JLPT?
Ah, ok. Guess I'll keep my money heh.
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