The Big Ass Superior Thread of Learning Japanese

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Resilient said:
Lol that's a pretty good way to put it. When I mean dialect I mean being able to understand the core of the conversation, but my only experience with dialect comes from Italian so maybe it's different in Japan. The way I see it; if somebody says they're fluent they shouldn't care if someone raises an eyebrow or questions it. If I was fluent I wouldn't give a shit what anybody else thought, cause I would know I was. I wish I could work my way through a Japanese game with some elbow grease tho.
Why you gotta assume my weekend was boring?
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Cause your life is clown status.


Zefah said:
Yeah, this is exactly what I was getting at when I was talking about being able to communicate at a business level. Can you get your business done as an adult without running into huge roadblocks from a sheer language perspective? Fluent.
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Yes sir. So if GAF is a haven for these kinds of people, well then honey, I'm home.
 
Zefah said:
I think there are a lot of people who define it as simply being able to have a basic conversation without hitting a wall. That's why you see so many people claim fluency, but not at a business level. Not being to communicate at a business level implies a strong lack of fluency by my definition, but I understand there's some subjectivity involved.
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You're constantly forced to make corrections on translations on the gaming side. You're a hero. lol
 
RangerBAD said:
You're constantly forced to make corrections on translations on the gaming side. You're a hero. lol
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I kind of wish my personality didn't make me care so much about that stuff and let me just ignore it... Not sure why it always bothers me so much to see people act so confident while simultaneously being so wrong.
 
Zefah said:
I kind of wish my personality didn't make me care so much about that stuff and let me just ignore it... Not sure why it always bothers me so much to see people act so confident while simultaneously being so wrong.
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Just imagine the insane misinformation that would spread around if you didn't.
 
Fluent is a bit of a dumb word.

To me it just means speak at a natural pace, being able to work around lack of knowledge.

In that regard, in most situations I am fluent. If it means anything to do with being close to a native-level, I am most definitely not. Either way, I would never use the word, as it's vague.

There's bits in Fire Emblem If now (currently playing it) that I definitely don't get.
 
Don't see what's vague. You're not fluent (using your description).
 
New year is here! Renewing my goal of learning Japanese. I started Heisig a few years ago and still have my old decks. I was using Anki to go through them and I realized there are a lot of features in the program I don't understand, like leeching.

I really like the mobile version for the whiteboard feature as well, instead of having reams of Kanji lying around the house. I've worked on reviewing whatever was up in my deck for the past two days. About ready to flip on 20 new cards and start moving forward again.
 
who took N2 last year? or did everybody take N1?

if you took N2 last year pls stand up.

bryanee said:
I've bought these two books to help me start out.

Hiragana Book

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1568363893/

Katakana Book

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1568363907/

God I hope they're ok. I've read they're ok for self study.
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This post got lost in between! Honestly, you should be fine with those, I haven't used them personally but they'll be good to at least get you into a structure. You could really learn hiragana and katakana without a book but you're starting from scratch so no big deal. plus 9 pounds looks like a tiny amount of money lol. hm... i actually don't know where a beginner should really begin..i can't even remember what i was doing at the start. let's just say it was very slow and lazy study.
 
Aizo said:
He's fluent. I've talked to Japanese people with him.
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Yes, I made a snarky comment. Yes, I was wrong. We were having a discussion about the varying definitions of fluent, and how it's just thrown around so easily sometimes. I just chose a post at random, but I shouldn't have singled anyone out.
 
Hasn't that person posted in this thread lol.

I wouldn't expect anyone at such a high level to post in a thread like this. I can barely get through two threads on the jgo subreddit before closing the tab in disgust.

The only reason I hang out here is because I get banned in pretty much every other thread.
 
I just like to help people out :(

Assuming it's not a simple "hey, translate this!" thing.
 
In ios9 right now, highlighted a word I didn't know, dozed off on train and woke up to a definition on my screen. This changes EVERYTHING

Also wowie there is a really interesting thread on one of those sub reddits at the moment 😐
 
I'm an expert said:
Hasn't that person posted in this thread lol.

I wouldn't expect anyone at such a high level to post in a thread like this. I can barely get through two threads on the jgo subreddit before closing the tab in disgust.

The only reason I hang out here is because I get banned in pretty much every other thread.
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Dont tell anyone!
i like you man :
)
 
Gromph you are the one person I will meet up with when I get back to Tokyo in April.
 
Edit: I suppose that isn't really a worthwhile discussion. Strange baiting, but I'll use it as a reminder to keep studying hard.
 
Resilient said:
what the fuck is this shit
to desu
?

1. have we really reached a point with tech where this is possible?
2. is this guy serious with this shit?
3. should i stop learning Japanese and buy this?

yeah yeah it's probably tweaked/faked/staged (the translations)/exaggerated but that's absolutely crazy??

get that crowdfunding money?
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http://www.dailydot.com/technology/logbar-ili-wearable-foreign-language-translator-ces-2016/

The product seems helpful, but Logbar's lackluster release of its Kickstarted Ring Zero leaves me rather skeptical about this new device. The company declined to give me a hands-on demonstration; its representatives showed off the device but did not actually use it.

Like many products at this year's CES, Ili promises big things without giving attendees a fully functional demo.
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There were several times where, while the translation was close it didn't quite match with what he had actually said. Particularly "I should thank your parents" coming out as 感謝したい. That's a fair translation, but I can't believe that the device jumped to that instead of べき or しんければならない, unless he specifically programmed the device for these specific dialogues.
 
i'm disappointed in myself that i thought that such a thing was even gonna be possible.

i mean maybe it does work, but i really truly thought that this wasn't one of those times where a small start-up company talks big and then fails to back it up after they take all the moneys.

RIP me.

double RIP because I now have to cancel flights to the UK.
 
I find myself at crossroads. I need a language for my degree, and I'm trying to decide between Japanese and German. On the one hand I love Japanese culture and cinema, and have always wanted to live there even for a short time. On the other everyone says German is easier, but I'm less interested in it, and don't see myself giving it the time and attention it would require because of my disinterest. The textbooks for both classes are expensive as fuck, so once I decide I'm pretty much stuck. I really don't want to take the "easier" way and regret it.
 
Lol. I grew up on the border of a German speaking country. German is not easy. I'd put Jgo and Dgo at the exact same level of difficulty for everything but reading, honestly.
 
Snaku said:
I find myself at crossroads. I need a language for my degree, and I'm trying to decide between Japanese and German. On the one hand I love Japanese culture and cinema, and have always wanted to live there even for a short time. On the other everyone says German is easier, but I'm less interested in it, and don't see myself giving it the time and attention it would require because of my disinterest. The textbooks for both classes are expensive as fuck, so once I decide I'm pretty much stuck. I really don't want to take the "easier" way and regret it.
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The one that interests you will be easier in the end I think. If you aren't interested you'll lose it. Also, while German is bound to be easier due to it's closeness with English, the grammar is much more difficult than japanese grammar. Follow your heart!
 
shanshan310 said:
The one that interests you will be easier in the end I think. If you aren't interested you'll lose it.
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Exactly this. No language is necessarily hard to learn well if you're passionate about learning it and have the right environment to immerse yourself in it.

Obviously, German is a hell of a lot closer to English, but that really doesn't mean much in the end.
 
I'm an expert said:
For me fluency is really about commanding situations that any adult could in their native culture. Negotiate a car payment, open a utility account, get your boat license, partake in a political process, apply to a vocational school, find the right school for your child, read the fine print, pretend you understand the fine print, discuss miniscule details of a tv show, explain to the doctor why you think you have cancer, know how to act at a funeral.
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Zefah said:
Yeah, this is exactly what I was getting at when I was talking about being able to communicate at a business level. Can you get your business done as an adult without running into huge roadblocks from a sheer language perspective? Fluent.
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Interesting to hear everyone's thoughts about fluency. That's what I consider fluent "for a gaijin." I've done most of those with no problems--not really a daunting task since services tend to be very good in Japan. Receptionists and customer-facing staff are very accommodating and take the effort to explain everything to the last detail. I have a much harder time doing the same things in my own country due to the system and workforce's general incompetence.

My own description of fluent (with no caveats) is nothing short of native level. Like writing a publishable essay or thesis with very minimal edits required, participating in a political debate on live TV, engaging with a Japanese person not only as a client but also as a vendor (selling yourself or your services to a Japanese). Maybe I just have ridiculously high standards.

Arguably, these things might be difficult even for a Japanese person. Especially for writing and being in the position of vendor, a lot of what makes it difficult isn't grammar per se, but 言葉遣い (careful choice of language for the right situation and time). Unfortunately, I don't think this can be taught by any grammar book or TV show. You have to experience it yourself and learn from your (and others') mistakes. That is if you are fortunate enough to realize your own mistakes or have others correct you. Unfortunately the heavily contextual nature of Japanese makes it a virtual minefield when communicating, whether the speaker realizes it or not. That's my main reason for NOT advocating language study without output and feedback.

Resilient said:
what the fuck is this shit
to desu
?

1. have we really reached a point with tech where this is possible?
2. is this guy serious with this shit?
3. should i stop learning Japanese and buy this?

yeah yeah it's probably tweaked/faked/staged (the translations)/exaggerated but that's absolutely crazy??

get that crowdfunding money?
Click to expand...

A few months back, a gaffer posted about working on a Skype instant translator beta and doing hour-long conversations with other staff (English to Spanish and vice versa) and described the experience as smooth. Though the post can't be verified for accuracy, I do expect that automation will replace translation in the not-so-distant future. Even google translate can come up with very usable translations depending on language (like Spanish or Italian) as long as you're not aiming for 100% accuracy. It's still pretty much a crap shoot for heavily context-based languages like Japanese and Korean, but algorithms are being continuously developed and technology grows exponentially year by year. I'd give it a decade at most before human translation becomes borderline obsolete. Toss to that the rapid spread of English as de facto world language. As someone who earns her living mostly by selling language skills, it's not a pretty picture so I need to work on a contingency plan.

Though I predict there would be lesser demand for professional translators/interpreters, I think fluent multi-linguals in specialty fields would still be very much in demand. People still prefer to communicate with other people where it matters. That's why as a multilingual, I always make it a point to communicate in the language (and even accent at times) that is the most familiar to the person I am speaking to. A foreign tongue or unfamiliar accent is like a wall, even when both people speak the same language. It's Psychology 101, but the more I am in tune with the other person's speech, the more they open up to me.
 
Putting aside the fact my example of partaking in a political process inherently implies being able to digest and express opinion on political issues (not sure what tv has to do with it), at this point it just seems like you're being needlessly contrarian - or don't understand Zefah and I were talking about cultural fluency being a large part of linguistic fluency. Your examples seemed to focus on insanely advanced displays of technical knowledge or industry knowledge.

99% of people in any country could not write a 'publishable essay or thesis with very minimal edits required.' Japanese, German, British, whatever. This is a skill acquired through actual academic experience and is something people specifically dedicate their studies to. It's a skill that can enhance and exhibit your cultural or linguistic fluency, but is not something inherent to native language use. So I guess the majority of natives in a culture are not fluent.

Selling yourself or services is an actual technical skill taught in schools, taught in businesses, and learned through life. 99% of people in any country don't know how to properly sell an idea, service, product, or themselves. That is why the position of sales exists. This has nothing to do with cultural or linguistic fluency, it something you can layer on top of those two things to make yourself advanced in a specific field. So I guess the majority of natives in a culture are not fluent.

I'm not trying to purposely be obtuse, I get what your point is, I just think you're purposely stretching your examples to some how show that they require more fluency. They require more technical knowledge, not fluency.

I have actually seen this argument a lot in the real world. Someone tries to defend their language skill by saying something like 'I'm more fluent than that guy, I translate legal documents!' Translating legal documents is surely an advanced skill, but it has nothing to do with fluency. I could hand a 45 year old bank manager a legal document in their native language right now and they would have no clue whatsoever how to interpret it other than (and maybe not even with 100% accuracy) being able to verbally read it out loud. They're not fluent I guess.
 
marimorimo said:
My own description of fluent (with no caveats) is nothing short of native level. Like writing a publishable essay or thesis with very minimal edits required, participating in a political debate on live TV, engaging with a Japanese person not only as a client but also as a vendor (selling yourself or your services to a Japanese). Maybe I just have ridiculously high standards.
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I don't understand how this is fluent. This means that most native speakers of a language aren't fluent. That's nonsense. I think expert has what I would say to that, plus more, covered.
 
marimorimo said:
Interesting to hear everyone's thoughts about fluency. That's what I consider fluent "for a gaijin." I've done most of those with no problems--not really a daunting task since services tend to be very good in Japan. Receptionists and customer-facing staff are very accommodating and take the effort to explain everything to the last detail. I have a much harder time doing the same things in my own country due to the system and workforce's general incompetence.

My own description of fluent (with no caveats) is nothing short of native level. Like writing a publishable essay or thesis with very minimal edits required, participating in a political debate on live TV, engaging with a Japanese person not only as a client but also as a vendor (selling yourself or your services to a Japanese). Maybe I just have ridiculously high standards.

Arguably, these things might be difficult even for a Japanese person. Especially for writing and being in the position of vendor, a lot of what makes it difficult isn't grammar per se, but 言葉遣い (careful choice of language for the right situation and time). Unfortunately, I don't think this can be taught by any grammar book or TV show. You have to experience it yourself and learn from your (and others') mistakes. That is if you are fortunate enough to realize your own mistakes or have others correct you. Unfortunately the heavily contextual nature of Japanese makes it a virtual minefield when communicating, whether the speaker realizes it or not. That's my main reason for NOT advocating language study without output and feedback.
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It's already been posted by Expert and Aizo, but by this definition, just about no one would be fluent in any language. Those are ridiculously high standards.

Also, I don't think anyone is advocating for language study without output and feedback, should that option be readily available. It's not for a lot of people.

marimorimo said:
That's why as a multilingual, I always make it a point to communicate in the language (and even accent at times) that is the most familiar to the person I am speaking to. A foreign tongue or unfamiliar accent is like a wall, even when both people speak the same language.
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Maybe I'm misinterpreting, but the bolded seems like a damn terrible idea to me. If you happen to be proficient in the accent, that's one thing, but trying to mimic the person's accent, especially if they're speaking in a language that isn't their native tongue, could come across as downright offensive.
 
Thanks for the advice guys, I dropped German and got the last spot of the Japanese class. Before I was dreading having to take a language but after making the switch I'm so excited to get started. This is the first semester that I'm actually looking forward to.

The class is using Nakama 1 and the workbook. People have recommended I pick up Genki to supplement that. Thoughts?
 
Snaku said:
Thanks for the advice guys, I dropped German and got the last spot of the Japanese class. Before I was dreading having to take a language but after making the switch I'm so excited to get started. This is the first semester that I'm actually looking forward to.

The class is using Nakama 1 and the workbook. People have recommended I pick up Genki to supplement that. Thoughts?
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Nakama 1 and Genki 1 are going to cover a lot of the same ground, so I wouldn't actually advise that.
 
Some people like to put their own language skill as the minimum bar for what's considered fluency.
I will agree with Expert in that fluency is closer to being able to do certain kind of large purchases, read needed documentation and small print, being able to put your kid in school, etc... Basically what any kind of Japanese person would be expected to be able to do.

I could ask my Japanese wife to read some stuff related to the game development industry and she would be able to read it but not understand it (too many technical terms that I do understand) and I would never consider her less fluent than me, that would be stupid.

So yeah...
 
Didn't know you had gotten married, Mik!

Might have been a long time ago, but congratulations!
 
Hi everyone! I've taken 3 semesters of Japanese and will be starting my fourth next week. So far we've gone through the first 15 chapters of the Genki textbooks and I was wondering, for self-practice would it be better to practice the N4 or N5 tests at my level? I love studying but when I'm not in a class I get a little lost on where to practice and usually just do the practice problems in the textbooks but I was wondering if it would be better to practice the JLPT?
 
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