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[Porcile]

Sounds like a sweet deal if you can get it. I'll just stick to learning the language as I want to be more of a Swiss Army knife kind of person, with multiple skills and experiences to call upon. Better to be able to open doors yourself rather than relying on someone else, I say.

 

[shanshan310]

This is the route I'm trying to take. I'm conversational but no where near fluent. My Japanese friends told me the best route and jobs for me to look for jobs at multinationals where they operate in English and need English speakers. In this sense, I'm more attractive and not competing with the normal pool of Japanese engineers. Multinationals also are probably more willing to have higher starting wages.

Yeah, I have quite a few friends (mostly IT and Engineering majors) who took this route. They only needed basic Japanese for the position and mainly use English at work (although it's probably important to note that they all did Japanese as a major and are quite proficient).

I think I've mentioned it before but this website http://www.careerforum.net/ and the job fairs they hold often have a lot of those kind of jobs on offer.

 

[I'm an expert]

I'm the guy who actually works those fairs. =/

Though my industry needs bilingual.

 

[shanshan310]

I'm the guy who actually works those fairs. =/

Though my industry needs bilingual.

Oh right! I think you mentioned that before. Ive only heard about it through friends so you're probably in a better position to talk about it than me >< I haven't had enough money to attend as yet but tbh the industries there last year didn't really appeal.

 

[I'm an expert]

I mentioned it in the other thread for someone and their response was 'do I need a suit?'

So yeah.. this forum is not quite the crowd.

Did you end up applying for jet?

 

[shanshan310]

I mentioned it in the other thread for someone and their response was 'do I need a suit?'

So yeah.. this forum is not quite the crowd.

Did you end up applying for jet?

Ah, I see.

I did got an interview too!

 

[I'm an expert]

Good luck. Assuming you win the placement lottery it's certainly as easy as it gets when transitioning to Japan.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

As another example of not needing Japanese to work in Japan, a lot of bigger Japanese game developers hire people from overseas even if they can't communicate in Japanese very well or at all. Places like FROM Software, Bandai Namco, Capcom, Konami (well, probably not so much anymore), Square Enix, etc.

Being highly proficient in a skill that is marketable is almost always far more important than language ability. It's a lot tougher if all you have is your bilingual ability and charming personality when trying to find a job. Doable, but harder. The best combination, obviously, is to be good at something and speak the language really well.

 

[I'm an expert]

Correct, when I went as a young buck the combo for me was jlpt1+ivy league degree+my industry's certification. If it was just jlpt1 they wouldn't even look at me..who cares if some weeb can pass a memorization test.

 

[Porcile]

Correct, when I went as a young buck the combo for me was jlpt1+ivy league degree+my industry's certification. If it was just jlpt1 they wouldn't even look at me..who cares if some weeb can pass a memorization test.

Even with your education and qualification, would you have gotten the job you wanted in Japan if you didn't have JLPT1 though?

Seems to me like if you want to make things happen for yourself, then assuming you have a valuable skillset, then just do what it takes to pass the test and get good at the language. That would put you in a good position in your home country and abroad. That seems like somewhat less of a fantasy than just hoping things fall in place for you.

 

[I'm an expert]

No, in my industry I wouldn't have. There are no entry level positions that don't require Japanese. Had I done something like programming, sure.

Not sure what you mean by having things fall in place. There are some industries where no Jgo is required and some where Jgo is. I didn't choose my job because it did or didn't require jgo, I chose it because I wanted money. It so happened that the being bilingual and cross-certified in my industry = more money. So yay for me.

But like, if people have a 'dream' of working in Japan, there are plenty of paths that don't require Jgo mastery. In a case like mine, there are two people that can fill my position:

1. A Japanese native, highly capable in English, who goes to America to get certified
2. An English-speaking native, highly capable in Japanese, who goes to Japan to get certified

This is what I meant by fighting a native for a job. There are plenty of jobs that are simply need x skill, no jgo required. There you're just fighting other expats.

So there's nothing 'random' in either situation.

 

[Porcile]

Using someone like LorDjidane, who for the sake of the discussion I'm going to assume is fairly good at his job but perhaps doesn't have the years behind him and only has very basic language skill. Seems to me like the most sensible and productive thing for him in this instance is to go crazy hard at Japanese, do the JLPT and get that extra bit of paper. He can shoot for the stars then and be a Swiss Army knife. Fair enough people can get jobs in the field they want without it, but I dunno, what is there to lose really? Five months or less using your method and there's a lot more opportunities in front of you. That's I how would, and am doing it, but maybe I'm just doing it wrong - haha.

 

[I'm an expert]

I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just saying his first inclination was to go for video games. I dont have the energy to convince him the stupidity of that so maybe the better route for him to not waste his time, if his industry allows it, is just get there asap and then he can use that as the catalyst for cleaning up his language learning.

I dont know what weird idea of Swiss army knife you have. When I thought you were an educator it made sense what you were doing. I have no fucking clue what you're doing throwing away months of your life on a company that barely pays you, has loopholes to avoid government program subsidies, and wont even pay your ticket..and isn't even the field you want to work in.

I just didn't have the energy back then to bring it up.

 

[Resilient]

yo expert, do you see many people abuse the JET program - apply, get it, use it to have a sustainable income + ez hours and live in Japan, while in the mean time find a job in the field they are actually qualified in and then bail on the JET placement early?

And no I'm not doing this

 

[I'm an expert]

Yes but they do that with every esl program not just jet. Porcile wants to do the same thing with Interac. The plan is fine, it just takes advantage of the system and students. It's a very 'western' thing to do in a country that operates on a trust system. The issue with most alts is they can't get the jobs they want due to visa/skill issues so they just end up jumping from esl to esl. Jet is the top when it comes to pay but there's no growth and you can't choose locale. A lot of jets I met saved for a year in the inaka then got an esl job in Tokyo or Osaka or whatever, at a pay cut, but knowing in a few years they can advance up to their old pay and of course they live in a major metropolis.

There are schools like kinderkids where you can work up to manager or branch manager so for some esl can be lucrative.

I should add a lot of people with that original plan end up just sticking in ESL because they realize how fuckin easy it is to live in Japan with a good quality of life, no language skills, and a basic salary. It's such an easier time than returning to their home country or trying to find a job in their field that they just say fuck it. Hence, the lifer

 

[Resilient]

I see. Kids cop it the worst then.

I just looked up the JET salary. You say they take a pay cut knowing they'll eventually get back to the JET salary. No comment.

 

[Porcile]

I should know better than to get into a job discussion with you - haha.

No, I know what you mean. In recent times my thoughts about the whole thing have changed somewhat, I'm not so full of stubborn pride that I can't admit that, but I already did the thing months ago so it is what is. Now, for me it's all about what I can practically gain from teaching and what I can give to the students. As someone who doesn't want to fall into the same old traps, I am open to all and any constructive advice, but I am aware that I already fell into one in the first place.

Probably best left out of this thread though.

 

[I'm an expert]

We can talk about it lol. You're rarely going to find people like me who will talk the other side of it in a mature way rather than go for the throat like /r/japancirclejerk does (love that sub).

And just to be clear, Interac knows exactly what you're doing. So did Geos, Aeon, and whatever main companies are out there now. They account for it. With JET, the issue is you're going through a rigorous program to be a public government servant, and then you put them into a really awkward position when you quit because they can't just replace you immediately with any foreigner standing outside.

The plan is fine. I get the plan. I do. I just wish the government and immigration was more stringent with how they dealt with people who specifically enter on one visa and immediately try to get another. But in the end there's such a surplus of people wanting to get in that it makes sense economically to keep the cycle going.

The part that irks me is, like I mentioned above, people who realize they'd be utter failures in their home countries (financially and socially) but because Japan is set up in such a way that it supports people in a lot of ways, that they just say fuck it and stay in Japan. At their own detriment and usually at the detriment of whoever they're working for, or even married to.


Edit: sigh i dont make this shit up lol.. those following other threads know what im talking about

 

[Porcile]

To be fair, it's not like I'm going to arrive and just quit straight away. I have a year contract which runs concurrently with my visa and I'm honest and dedicated enough to give them the whole year. That was always going to be the case, barring some sort of family emergency forcing me to return home early. After that, it's not even my decision whether I get another contract or not. That's no different to JET, so I'm not sure what system I'm taking advantage of in that regard, besides the relatively easy to get job. That doesn't mean I'll take it any less seriously. I'm not sure I can express this enough.

Really the thought of turning up and saying "see ya, suckers" never crossed my mind, but obviously you've seen it happen. After my one year they can offer me another contract and I'll decide there and then if I want to continue for another year. Any decision on how long I continue with them will be down to how much I'm still enjoying the job and making sure I'm in a position to give the students the respect and dedication they rightly deserve from someone given the privilege to be in their classroom. If not, I'll look for a non-English teaching job (not ruling out education entirely) or come back home. Experience banked and no life sentence.

 

[I'm an expert]

I didn't mean you'd go in there ready to job hunt and quit. Most people don't. I believe you'll do your job fine. It's just when that year is done you might realize how much you don't want to leave, and then the easy choice for how to stay becomes evident.

 

[Porcile]

I see. It's just you responded to Resilient's posts about people leaving their positions early which I assumed to mean breaking their contracts mid way through their placement, and then implicated me straight up in those shenanigans. After one year it's fair game for everyone involved, employees and employers alike.

Anyway, I'm trying to do the shit everyday to make sure I don't have to take the easy choice, but at this point there's not much more I can do other than prove it I suppose.

 

[I'm an expert]

You a crooked ass muhfucka Porcile. I smell it.

 

[Porcile]

bro, pls. i will slice you.

I don't mind having these discussions, but I'm pretty damn tired of having to do it under the veil of internet anonymity and forum personas. This ain't about games and shit now. If you ever meet me in real life then you can get the whole picture and call me out for real if needed, but till then there's not much more I can say on the subject.

Spoiler

I'm sure it'll happen though.

 

[I'm an expert]

It's not like I'm personally attacking you. I don't care about you. You're some text and an avatar. Totally imaginary to me. Without the fleeting nature of the internet these convos wouldn't be as fun. I'll never meet any of you in real life. Never lol. Real life is totally different than on here. You don't want the veil taken off.

 

[Porcile]

True. It'd be sad day to see some guy turning up in his Nissan Cube and it ending up being you. The point I was trying to make was that the conversation can't really go on without a bit more context. At the moment it's just an endless back and forth. I did try to steer it early on towards something more practical relating to Japanese/living in Japan, but I guess that got lost along the way.

 

[I'm an expert]

You're not too far from the truth.

I'm not in a back and forth at all, just talking. Like this is as boring of a convo as it gets. Nor sure why you think it's some exciting offense/defense.

 

[Resilient]

damn. was totally hoping i was gonna get to a robot restaurant with Expert. don't let my dream die. i need something to live for.

 

[I'm an expert]

Robot restaurant..lol

 

[Porcile]

Egh, I have no emotional investment in it either. I just come here when I'm bored and type shit and read responses, doesn't mean any of it matters to me. Except this time we reached the bottom of the barrel in a Japanese learning thread of all things, even by pointless message board standards that's sad stuff. haha

 

[I'm an expert]

This thread is basically just us 3 weebs. what's you guys' fav anime?

i like oniisama he. Im sure you guys have never heard of it.

 

[RangerBAD]

This thread is basically just us 3 weebs. what's you guys' fav anime?

i like oniisama he. Im sure you guys have never heard of it.

Didn't take you for a shoujo guy.

 

[I'm an expert]

It's why i'm so comfortable with my emotions.

 

[Porcile]

I don't watch anime. I only watch Yasujiro Ozu films.

 

[Resilient]

I have too many to list. If you wait a while I'll upload a photo of my figure shelf and wall scrolls. You will be impressed.

 

[bryanee]

My New Years Resolution last year was to start giving blood and I do. My New Years Resolution for this year is to start learning Japanese for no reason other than I'd just really want to. Kinda daunting though.

I've read the first page and I'm not sure where I a complete noob to this should start. Any kind of classes are kind of out of the question for me.

 

[Laevateinn]

My New Years Resolution last year was to start giving blood and I do. My New Years Resolution for this year is to start learning Japanese for no reason other than I'd just really want to. Kinda daunting though.

I've read the first page and I'm not sure where I a complete noob to this should start. Any kind of classes are kind of out of the question for me.

Your best bet is to just spend some time every day trying to learn Hiragana. If you can wrap your mind around that, it will still be difficult to do without the motivation of a class but you'll at least have proved you have the discipline to start learning the language proper.

 

[shanshan310]

Oh boy, shojo anime. I tried to repress those embarrasing high school memories of using up my family's bandwidth waiting for hours to watch marmalade boy.

Good luck. Assuming you win the placement lottery it's certainly as easy as it gets when transitioning to Japan.

Thanks! It seems like a pretty fun job too. I honestly wouldn't be too fussed living in the inaka though, I grew up in a little village anyway.

My New Years Resolution last year was to start giving blood and I do. My New Years Resolution for this year is to start learning Japanese for no reason other than I'd just really want to. Kinda daunting though.

I've read the first page and I'm not sure where I a complete noob to this should start. Any kind of classes are kind of out of the question for me.

If you're into podcasts, Japanese pod 101 seems fairly decent. They have structured lessons with PDFs to follow, like a real class. Learn some basic expressions and vocabulary first, then you can jump into hiragana. I wouldn't start rote learning that before you know how the language sounds at least.

It's also useful to start seeing the language in context while you're learning, to reinforce what can seem abstract at the time. Are you interested in any kind of Japanese media? If you try watching something like a Ghibli film you'll find they use a lot of basic expressions and you'll find yourself understanding bits sooner than you think

 

[Resilient]

The first post is a bit dated, and the methods everybody are using now all vary. Having said that; like the others mentioned Hiragana is probably the best place to start. Then Katakana once you feel good. Make sure you find a good resource that shows you the stroke orders, will help to get it right at the start. Then after that see how you feel about it all; decide what you want to use the language for and come ask some questions. The thread is active and even though we are all doing different things, there are people who can help for whatever it is you're trying to achieve. Don't be a stranger!

 

[bryanee]

Thank you for the suggestions people. Time to check out the podcast and Hiragana.

 

[I'm an expert]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1165685

I think I just need to accept this is reality.

 

[shanshan310]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1165685

I think I just need to accept this is reality.

It's really interesting to see different people's understanding of fluency and proficiency. Personally I hate both words, whenever I talk about language study monolingual people always ask "so are you fluent?" and it's so awkward to answer. I have no idea how fluent fluent is supposed to be.

 

[RangerBAD]

.

 

[Resilient]

Well why would they post here when they be fluent already &#9786;&#65039;

 

[I'm an expert]

It's not that I doubt anyone's ability, I wouldn't expect anyone to believe a word I say either. It's just in a good decade in Japan I've met maybe 20-30 people I'd think of as 'fluent' and I've already expressed my opinion on that description. Yet here on this random site I've found a truck load of people willing to self-identify as that. Maybe I shouldn't think of GAF as a random site anymore. It's obviously not the tiny forum I joined way back when.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I think there are a lot of people who define it as simply being able to have a basic conversation without hitting a wall. That's why you see so many people claim fluency, but not at a business level. Not being to communicate at a business level implies a strong lack of fluency by my definition, but I understand there's some subjectivity involved.

 

[Resilient]

I can hold a conversation and with the study I've done over the the past couple of months, I can probably understand and express myself quite a bit. But I would in no way define that as fluent. I don't see fluency happening for another 2 years minimum. Fluency to me is being able to hold a conversation without pause, without having to think about what the other person has said again. Without sounding like robot. Just natural. And being able to converse with anybody, with any type of dialect.

If someone says they're fluent tho, good for them. I don't care enough about they're abilities to doubt it.

 

[bryanee]

I've bought these two books to help me start out.

Hiragana Book

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1568363893/

Katakana Book

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1568363907/

God I hope they're ok. I've read they're ok for self study.

 

[I'm an expert]

I wouldn't necessarily include business in fluency, because obviously there's so much technical jargon for any industry. I agree general polite forms and grammar carry across, but I wouldn't expect someone to be able to speak hospital talk or stock broker talk etc. I'm sure I know what you mean, being able to work in a real workplace setting, just wanted to be more granular.

Also, for dialects, there are plenty of natives who cannot understand dialects of other natives. Would you call them not fluent? That's something literally everyone has to learn from experience.

For me fluency is really about commanding situations that any adult could in their native culture. Negotiate a car payment, open a utility account, get your boat license, partake in a political process, apply to a vocational school, find the right school for your child, read the fine print, pretend you understand the fine print, discuss miniscule details of a tv show, explain to the doctor why you think you have cancer, know how to act at a funeral. I realize there are a lot of adults who cant even do these things in their native cultures. Half of GAF admitted to not knowing how tax brackets worked. Stupidity in the general population is understood. I would just expect the same level of basic stupidity in another country NOT BECAUSE OF LANGUAGE BUT BECAUSE OF EXPERIENCE before you call yourself fluent.

If that makes sense. Being able to carry a convo about your boring weekend without pausing and correctly aizuching does not make someone fluent in a language.

 

[Resilient]

Lol that's a pretty good way to put it. When I mean dialect I mean being able to understand the core of the conversation, but my only experience with dialect comes from Italian so maybe it's different in Japan. The way I see it; if somebody says they're fluent they shouldn't care if someone raises an eyebrow or questions it. If I was fluent I wouldn't give a shit what anybody else thought, cause I would know I was. I wish I could work my way through a Japanese game with some elbow grease tho.
Why you gotta assume my weekend was boring?

 

[Deleted member 17706]

For me fluency is really about commanding situations that any adult could in their native culture. Negotiate a car payment, open a utility account, get your boat license, partake in a political process, apply to a vocational school, find the right school for your child, read the fine print, pretend you understand the fine print, discuss miniscule details of a tv show, explain to the doctor why you think you have cancer, know how to act at a funeral.

Yeah, this is exactly what I was getting at when I was talking about being able to communicate at a business level. Can you get your business done as an adult without running into huge roadblocks from a sheer language perspective? Fluent.