Haha! Not sure why, but I guess I just got the impression that you had some background in linguistics. Maybe it was because you knew a lot of grammatical and pronunciation-related terms.
But, yeah, I think we have the same understanding when it come to how the pronunciation works.
Depending on the word, there is definitely less emphasis on the い or う in standard pronunciation (unless the speaker is stressing each syllable on purpose). Stuff like 先生 (however 先制 in 先制攻撃 would have more emphasis on the い） and ありがとう, but they still aren't *exactly* the same as a double え or double お. 法務（ほうむ）isn't exactly the same as ホーム, for example.
On that note, I imagine a lot of instances of the double お sound are in Katakana words like ホーム、ボール、モール、 etc. Then again, there are verbs like 通る（とおる） and 凍る（こおる）, which are again ever so slightly different compared to 放る（ほうる）...
It's true I like to bandy words about like "pitch accent" and whatnot, but that's more of a byproduct of my formal studying of the language (i.e. majoring in Japanese at school) and a general interest in those things. If people like Dragona - you know, actual linguistics experts - were still around, they would thoroughly hand my ass to me. When push comes to shove, my knowledge of Japanese linguistics is somewhat superficial I'm afraid.
I have an analytical mind when it comes to learning the spoken part of languages. I need to be able to break down the pronunciation, accent, intonation and rhythm of a given language in order to fully grasp all its nuances and improve my accent. I apply the same principle to both English and Japanese.
I think it's largely a matter of position and pitch accent. There are many instances where I do hear a difference, but I'm not sure I hear the difference between 法務 and ホーム for instance. To me, they do sound
exactly the same, and I'm inclined to believe it's because the words are otherwise identical, even down to the pitch accent (first syllable) if Rikaisama is to be believed. The two people in Rikaisama even pronounce both the same way. Maybe some Japanese people would pronounce those differently, I wouldn't be surprised, but I don't think they would ALL do that ALL the time.
How do they sound different to you? If you could record yourself saying them I'd appreciate it.
Do you hear any difference between the え in お姉ちゃん and the い in 先生 or お礼？because I don't. How about てめえ？ おめえ？ すげえ？
I use to think that there was a difference, but on reflection I think it was just a relic of me learning the words in written form and internalizing the spellings.
I hear a difference between お姉ちゃん and 先生 for instance, yeah. The latter is more open than the former (again, much like "è" vs. "é" in French), but whether it's solely a spelling thing or a matter of where the sound is positioned in the word and where the pitch accent falls I'm not sure.
I haven't read the reddit thing, and so I don't know if the basis on which they argue is sound, but regardless, to me it's no surprise that there would be a debate about that stuff. It's very subtle.
Didn't read thread properly.
Edit: I will say that I think native English speakers have issues without saying diphthongs. I definitely did, and my accent most shows with elongated vowels.
They do. Many people whose native language is stress-based (e.g. English, German) will have a problem wrapping their heads around the rhythm, length and pronunciation of Japanese vowels. By contrast, French speakers for instance tend to have an easier time with that. I should know, I'm one of them.
I don't care about reddit, but if anyone in this thread thinks there isn't a difference between ei and ee, or anyone that pronounces words like eiga or teinei as ee instead of e-i.. you're a moron.
My favorite asshole! Good to have you back, man. I was wondering if you got perm'd. Glad you're not.
I can't blame people too much. The difference can be subtle, some people will mark it stronger than others, and, as I said above, it's also a pitch accent/positional thing. In some cases, I maintain that the difference in pronunciation between one and the other is virtually non-existent, if not completely.
That said, while I'll always defer to people like you and Zefah for 99% of all things Japanese - you guys have a much, much better command of the language than I do, let's not kid myself here -, pronunciation and accent is the one aspect where I generally need proof before buying what people tell me, no matter how fluent they are. Sharpening one's ear, mouth, tongue and throat tends to be the trickiest part for most people, even the best. I've seen people as proficient as interpreters struggle in the subtlest ways. While I myself am nowhere near perfect on that front, I largely trust myself over most people when it comes to those aspects.
I'd love to hear in what way(s) you think they're different more specifically. Like, I get that you can pronounce 映画 with a subtle い in there - in fact, I would tend to pronounce it like that myself -, but if you're saying that there are
no Japanese people who would pronounce it ええ, then to me it's just as crazy as saying there
never is a difference between えい / ええ and おお / おう. It really depends on the word and the pronunciation habits of the person, even if they're a native speaker.
In short: it's not as clear-cut as you're making it out to be.
Care to elaborate? I don't mind being proven wrong. I'm just not buying it so far.
