This dude? http://bit.ly/1pVtQGN
Ugh, I hope not. My voice is a bit deeper, but I'll admit I tend to use a neutral/teaching material type of read when doing this kind of stuff.
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The Big Ass Superior Thread of Learning Japanese
- Thread starter RevenantKioku
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This dude? http://bit.ly/1pVtQGN
Ugh, I hope not. My voice is a bit deeper, but I'll admit I tend to use a neutral/teaching material type of read when doing this kind of stuff.
That's probably why.
bigmit3737
Member
Zefah's sentence flow is amazing and Killrog's pronunciation is top notch. I need some tips to improve my pronunciation.
For sentence flow, I'm assuming "shadowing" is the best way to improve?
For sentence flow, I'm assuming "shadowing" is the best way to improve?
Thank you for the compliment. I'll gladly help you with your pronunciation/accent. I love that stuff, it's so much fun to me (and also a bitch... mostly fun though).
What's your native language? Is it English?
In fact, I'll PM you right now. Check your PM box in a couple minutes.
Zefah's flow is amazing, you're right. I'm envious.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
sound like a couple of guyjin readin romanji to me honestly
PreyingShark
Member
At least they sound better than my classmates in 10th grade Japanese class.
Now that was fucking horrible on the ears. NIHANGODAY ONAYGUYEESHEEMASS
I think he was joking, the way he said it. Unless anything short of perfection is trash to him.
PreyingShark
Member
If I thought he was serious I wouldn't have compared you guys to my 10th grade classmates. lol
I don't even know what 10th grade is, since every country has their own way of counting those, so, sorry, your joke was lost on me
. Heck, in my country we don't have a numbering system at all until high school and then it's from 6th and down. Last year of senior high school isn't even numbered.PreyingShark
Member
10th grade = 15 - 16 year-oldsI don't even know what 10th grade is, since every country has their own way of counting those, so, sorry, your joke was lost on me
Smiles and Cries
Member
I need help with these two phrases
1) "Eve's Rose" is イブのローズ correct?
2) "Can Black Power Cure Sickle Cell Disease?" this is a more difficult phrase due to context
both are for paintings I am working on I tend to write on the paintings in a few languages like French and Haitian Creole or a few different African languages
I had gotten help from this thread a few years ago for other paintings
Sickle Cell Disease in Japanese is something I had written down I had an app Japanese dictionary on my iPhone but my phone recently broke can't access what I saved as the accurate medical translation
I hope someone here can help me with these two
1) "Eve's Rose" is イブのローズ correct?
2) "Can Black Power Cure Sickle Cell Disease?" this is a more difficult phrase due to context
both are for paintings I am working on I tend to write on the paintings in a few languages like French and Haitian Creole or a few different African languages
I had gotten help from this thread a few years ago for other paintings
Sickle Cell Disease in Japanese is something I had written down I had an app Japanese dictionary on my iPhone but my phone recently broke can't access what I saved as the accurate medical translation
I hope someone here can help me with these two
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
Thanks a ton for going through the trouble, man.
First off, your accent is great. Certainly good enough that I can barely hear that you're not a native speaker. In fact, most of it sounds entirely natural to me. Your vocal placement in particular sounds really good to me, better than mine at least - placement has always been my blind spot, even in English.
About ホウ/ホー: yeah, I'm not hearing any difference, sorry. Or if there is any, it tends to be because of the word’s pitch accent, the way I look at it.
As for えい/ええ, I've got to be honest: I don't really hear a difference either. In fact, you're gonna hate me for this, but in the very last thing you said in the recording, ステージに立つ, you actually said て・い even though it's テー
Just for the heck of it, I recorded the same phrases as you, the way I would say them. Tell me if you find any difference betweenえい and ええ in my pronunciation, cause I guarantee you I’m saying them the same way.
https://soundcloud.com/beru_vo/ei-ee
For おう/おお, I’ve taken a few clips from a Natsume Sôseki short story narrated by a Japanese man. Though it’s mostly おう words, tell me if they sound different compared to おお words to you.
https://soundcloud.com/beru_vo/xuzfwqbffpnb
Also, yeah, it definitely feels weird to listen to oneself when you’re not used to it, especially if you have a low-end microphone that doesn’t record the full spectrum of your voice. You get used to it after a while. Everyone hates their voice at first, and I was no exception. Now it’s fine, but I had to get over that to practice voice acting.
Thanks for the reply! I'm not really familiar with vocal placement. Any material (text, video, or otherwise) you can recommend on the subject?
I can definitely tell the difference in your pronunciation of えい/ええ. It's quite clear to me, but after all this discussion, I started to doubt myself. I asked my wife a bit about it (native Japanese from Kansai area) and she agreed that the idea that えい should turn into ええ almost universally is quite crazy. She wasn't as sure about おう/おー though.
From the Natsume Sôseki story, I think I do hear the difference, honestly. Especially in the 頬（ほお） vs 到底（とうてい） words at around 0:07 and 0:07. Again, I may be wrong, and my knowledge of how they are spelled may be causing my brain to hear them in certain ways, but I definitely hear it.
Anyway, you've got great pronunciation (and a pleasant voice to boot!). I think the way you pronounce your verbs （使う、話す、送る、する、行う、立つ） in particular is indistinguishable from a native speaker.
How do you say crystal tiara in Japanese?
Keep that discussion public! I'd love to learn more about the topic.
TheSporkWithin
Member
頰 used to be ほほ, as you're probably aware. I didn't listen to the clip but it seems to be pronounced with a bit of a vocal waver in there to this day, and it might be accentuated here because he's reading classical material.
Another weird one is 場合, a fair number of native speakers seem to pronounce it ばわい which I find really annoying for some reason. I'm playing Steins;gate and the voice actor for Kurisu pronounces it like that and it bugs the hell out of me every time. This is strictly a mispronunciation, to my understanding though; not a cleaving to an older pronunciation.
The Japanese word for "rose" is バラ. I don't think I've heard ローズ used outside of names.
The second one is going to turn into a complete mess that would make native speakers squint in confusion. If you absolutely insist it would end up being something like 黒人の力は鎌状赤血球症を治せるかな？
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
That could be it! But I would still pronounce おおきい differently to とうてい, for example.
ばわい is definitely one of those grating mispronunciations. To me, it's even worse than the 雰囲気 = ふいんき example I mentioned earlier.
Porcile
Member
Assuming I'm understanding the context, I would be inclined to used ブラックパワー rather than 黒人の力 which sounds like too literal a translation, and for me has a different meaning.
TheSporkWithin
Member
Probably right, I don't know if it's a known concept here though. I don't think that either of them would immediately make any sense to a native Japanese person though. And they probably wouldn't be familiar with 鎌状赤血球症 either.
Porcile
Member
Well, they should learn lol.
I'm not sure there's any valid reason to shoehorn weird translations into concepts if there's perfectly valid and academically understood worldwide terms. 黒人の力 just sounds like some sort of black person super strength.
Smiles and Cries
Member
so 1) is イブの バラ
2) I am not really looking for the native speaker to understand the concept as far as putting it as an element of a painting it is a challenge to both non-Japanese and Japanese speakers to seek the meaning
it is a statement I could have easily written in French or Haitian Creole
but due to a 2014 news story that India and Japan were working together at Kyoto University to find new treatments for Sickle Cell Anemia I just want to add the Japanese so the work is as global is the issue (many see Sickle Cell as a Black People disease) so this Art is to deal with that in a play of words
Context http://www.ctpost.com/living/article/Bridgeport-artist-brings-attention-to-sickle-cell-7083936.php
I want to write it at the bottom of this painting when finished
https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/}...2539;サリュート
seems more legit than black man strength
seems more legit than black man strength
Smiles and Cries
Member
awesome
so 2) ブラックパワーは鎌状赤血球症を治せるかな？
did I miss anything?
edit:
1) what of spacing? is it イブの バラ or イブのバラ
thanks again for the help guys
Smiles and Cries
Member
I'll just write Superior Japanese Translation by NeoGAF OT Thread on the back of my canvas to cover myself :3
eh I double check but I do trust you guys know far more than I do about Japanese and how to write down the ideas I am trying to express
Porcile
Member
If you want a quick translation just sign up to lang-8 and post what you want in Japanese and a native speaker will correct it. I think there's also hi native?
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
My only recommendation for you is to just not do it.
Do not ruin your creative work with nonsense that you, nor anyone else will understand.
Whatever you want to say, say it in your own words.
Do not ruin your creative work with nonsense that you, nor anyone else will understand.
Whatever you want to say, say it in your own words.
Smiles and Cries
Member
having trouble loading lang-8 bookmarked
I like asking here because you guys discussed the concept and brought up good points
true a native speaker may have never heard of Sickle Cell Disease just like if I were to post a rare cancers name and asked for the correct spelling unless you look it up it is hard to know for sure
I'm still stuck on correct spacing between Eve's and Rose
I am such a noob after all these years
TheSporkWithin
Member
I missed that question. There's no spacing. The only time you see spaces inserted into Japanese is in picture books and stuff for kids who don't know how to read properly yet.
Porcile
Member
To be honest, I don't quite understand the importance of having Japanese in there, except for cool factor, but whatever. It's not like that kind of art has to make complete sense. It can be figurative. There's a fist punching through some blood cells.
TheSporkWithin
Member
I agree with this. It just seems weird and essentially nonsensical. Like, if you saw a painting by a Japanese artist and it had "Will wabi sabi help to overcome angioimmunoblastic lymphoma?" running down the side, would that add to your appreciation of the piece?
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
It is, though, isn't it?
All these people getting tattoos of direct translations or mistranslations of concepts or words that are important to them, but are absolutely lost on anyone who sees their tattoo. It's always a miserably failure and is just embarrassing to see. Same goes for misused language in other forms of art.
It could all be avoided if people simply understood how languages work, but that's tough unless you are at least bilingual.
Porcile
Member
Do you guys go around commenting on the linguistical accuracy of graffiti with random nonsensical language? Personally, the Japanese thing is not something I would do, but if the artist feels that it expresses the thing they want to express then it's up to them. In this case I think Smiles and Cries probably wants it accurate as possible though, so we are not the best people to ask.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
That's the core of the issue!
The artist thinks they are expressing something, but it's actually an embarrassing failure that will either be seen as total nonsense or misunderstood completely.
Now, if that's the intent of inserting a cringe-worthy sentence into your art piece, then more power to you, but I'm not getting that impression from Smiles and Cries...
Porcile
Member
It's not my art so I won't make too many judgements. I understand what you're saying though, again, not something I would do. If it was I'd find someone who could express it properly.
Anyone see that Reddit thread about the guy who wanted to get the word "fuck" tattooed in kanji? Amazing.
PreyingShark
Member
For art you'd probably want to use the kanji. So イブの薔薇
ファック? Should have just got くそがき.
I personally think it would detract from the images. People will be scratching their heads at the Japanese.
except you almost always see it written as バラ
unless the artist is really trying to question the thought process of the viewer - what are they trying to channel? is this just a rose, or is it a rose that can only be understood by those with a higher level of intelligence; an intelligence that can recognise the original description of this great flower? or maybe they're trying to alienate them by using it, or lead them to believe they are alienating them in order to trigger their internal, core understanding of the rose.
Smiles and Cries
Member
This is a good point but the answer is complicated.
I do understand what you are getting at but you do not see that is the whole point of what I am creating - I fight against that "Our" and "Own" - Ownership idea. Cultures are isolated from each other by language and traditions. This claim as something their own.
I was born in Haiti so is my own words Kreyol? Who would understand it?
I just know what I want to say and I choose a language to say it in on a painting.
Sometimes I use Kreyol sometimes French. Sometimes I need help to say things in languages beyond what I was born around.
I am using words. I know what I want to say so, I see this as my own words. How is Japanese not my own words if I seek the knowledge of how to write and say it correctly? The fact that I seek to learn is enough to drive my creativity. If I fear to express myself I just remain ignorant and stupid. The process of learning is part of my Art. I am not learning it all just bits and pieces here and there to inspire myself and others to explore for more.
I'm not writing it in Japanese just to write it in Japanese for Otaku's sake. It is part of the concept I had for that painting. Black Power gets lost in translation, it loses some of the weight it carries. It changes somehow. At least in my mind I see the shift of power, the volume is muted a bit until you seek to learn the meaning. The whole journey of learning to read it gives it shape.
The whole point of it is to explore outside of what is 'Your Own' native born into understanding. To explore a world outside beyond what I know. To poke at my own ignorance and seek meaning. What better language than the moon language pictograms of Kanji to fit this expression?
I have a whole series of work that mixes Japanese and Haitian Art elements it is not trying to fake it but just putting a puzzle together where both sides have to do a little work to find meaning and see that we are Human with many things in common. Earthquakes, Suffering, Pain, Life and Death.
The translation process is to prove that even in Japanese there is a way to say 'Black Power' even if the concept is foreign - this is what makes the painting my own journey. The whole process takes time, energy, to seek out teachers, helpers to guide you towards the goal of saying exactly what you want to say to both sides of the written words.
That is the whole point of the work, if I take the easy way out it is not worth putting on canvas because I would have lost the whole concept of learning and inspiring others to learn something new and different. This is my take on learning and discovery, exchange of ideas, languages and puzzles is part of what I love to create.
Here is "Eve's Rose" in progress in the background,
it already has some text in Arabic a language I do not read - it is part of what I like to do with my work - it represents to me that I am still illiterate, it is a challenge to learn, ask question, seek meaning in what seems to be 'nonsense' there are hidden concepts
I posted that on twitter and someone from Riyadh Saudi Arabia retweeted and tweeted at me in english saying that he liked the photo because he understood the hidden words that would have little meaning to me before I researched it for that part of the painting.
The power of language is huge, in some places on this planet what you write can get you killed even what I wrote there could be troublesome with the wrong attention and viewpoints. One guy in Riyadh likes it but many others could see it as something I should be hurt for expressing. So why is it part of my painting at all? It represents a major event in my life part of my journey as a person, as a painter. If the viewer knows what it says it opens up a lot of questions and answers. A whole new area to explore just because of a few words hidden only with language as the lock and key.
Just asking you guys on here is part of the creation process asking another human being what words and symbols mean. The idea is suffering is universal so I need elements I myself have to work at understanding. I could have written Eve's Rose in english but Japanese adds another layer of exploration and meaning about the work and the artist.
In the same way I drew a series of chemical structures on a few paintings the other day I had to research and ask around for that as well
this is Valine but there was a few ways to draw and write it. Which was the correct one for what I am trying to say?
I had to go back and cover up a few things that represented L-Valine and not natural DNA Amino Acid Valine which is what I wan't to represent
It is part of the fun of creating my work ask around seek knowledge, make errors and correct them. It adds layers upon layers of exploration and meaning to my work. For me it is just the fun of asking questions ad finding different answers and putting the correct one that fits what I wanted to say.
It is part of learning and growing if I use the language enough I feel someday they all will become easier to understand it keeps me open to learning and accepting that there is something outside of my own knowledge that is just outside my reach. I got to take the steps and ask others to help me understand it.
If after this Journey the viewer still sees nonsense and not a challenge to discover and learn something new, I can see right away they are not the types of people I would sell my painting to.
I hope that made some sense of why I wanted to ask this here. I have a long history with this website and studying Japanese on and off so I kept it as part of the rotation in my work. It keeps me curious and motivated to keep at it.
Porcile
Member
I don't think anyone is questioning your artistic integrity or your overall concept as anything other than sincere, except jokingly perhaps. It's the the idea of "Can Black Power Cure Sickle Cell Disease?" as a metaphor or whatever, is one which is not so easily translated to Japanese because that same kind of metaphor may be expressed completely differently from the direct translation. "ブラックパワーは鎌状赤血球症を治せるかな？" might just seem straight up weird to a native speaker.
Smiles and Cries
Member
The accuracy of "Eve's Rose" is less important simple katakana is ideal for where I was going to place it - it helps convey my own level of ignorance of the language
if you were reading Eve's Rose in a game targeted at a child the simple way of writing it would be accurate.
I really enjoyed reading all of the viewpoints about what I am doing
the absurdity of it is the kinds of reactions I expect to see the most
This is says what?
Art is about context, experience, and expression.
I'm Black, I live and fight with Sickle Cell Disease it just makes sense for me to express myself that way. There are just subjective ways to view art. It does not need to make sense but there is always a story and experience driving the creation of it
really I am not a revolutionary, I just want to express myself in my own way.
I was asking you guys for help because I know you value the language I wanted to use.
Why is it my way? Because I thought it was a good idea to write it in Japanese while another artist would have said nonsense!
The fact I made that choice makes it my own expression.
Smiles and Cries
Member
the whole statement is weird, I just wanted to get it as accurate as possible for that one since the medical term is higher level than I tend to use in my work.
it really was enjoyable to read the feedback
just wanted to thank you guys for helping me get close to what I wanted to say.
as far as Kanji on the face of the lady in "Eve's Rose" is suppose to be made up of layers of black Kanji not spelling out anything just using single Kanji that of course have meaning alone but together the all make up her face when you look closely at a detail of the face you will see she is made up of the layers of these different meaningless shapes
I'm looking for something I used in Art / Design School these font and text rub-ons just sheets of letters printed on plastic you could rub on paper to place the text to create design ads before the digital age - I was looking for Kanji version of this stuff to use in my work.
the whole idea of using language is to add a layer of puzzle and discovery
The theme of my Sickle Cell Work is Genetic Editing - Codes - Errors - Error Correction - Puzzles - Power -
so weird phrases is exactly what I would like to have fit in there if the native speaker has a puzzle to work out it is even better as it works for the concept I have set out to create
Porcile
Member
Taking Zefah's example:
If I was to take "Will wabi sabi help to overcome angioimmunoblastic lymphoma?" seriously, as a native speaker this could mean any number of things to me and maybe doesn't mean the thing which Zefah actually intended to express. You're wanting to turn an abstract concept into objective language without any form of irony, and it doesn't work as intended. Hence why you should find a native speaker to localise the expression, not translate it.
If I was to take "Will wabi sabi help to overcome angioimmunoblastic lymphoma?" seriously, as a native speaker this could mean any number of things to me and maybe doesn't mean the thing which Zefah actually intended to express. You're wanting to turn an abstract concept into objective language without any form of irony, and it doesn't work as intended. Hence why you should find a native speaker to localise the expression, not translate it.
PreyingShark
Member
Both are just as accurate. The kanji is just sometimes used in the name of things to add a sense of sophistication. At least, that's the only way I've seen it used. The katakana's just as accurate if you aren't trying to go "Look guys, I'm sophisticated!"
Smiles and Cries
Member
the pipe
I wan't this exact level of irony
I want it to read exactly what I stated in Japanese
"Can Black Power Cure Sickle Cell Disease?"
there is a level of Irony I am going for in asking this. I have a history with the community I am asking the question. Yet they never seem to understand the question when asked in english.
The idea is with all the wealth, power, celebrity, in my community this disease should have been cured long ago. Irony what if a Japanese scientist finds a cure for Sickle Cell? This is all Context http://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/he...sickle-cell-anaemia-remedy/article6366920.ece
the art will not spell it all out like that
old macbook spinning beachball of death
Smiles and Cries
Member
YES I WANT TO AVOID that that part of the reaction
simple is fine
Porcile
Member
Your question "Can Black Power Cure Sickle Cell Disease?" is loaded with all sorts of cultural subtext and implied meaning, much of which wouldn't translate to Japanese directly. It's not so much the translation is the issue, but what the translation as a concept would mean to a Japanese person. You want Japanese people to understand it, right? I have no idea if a Japanese person would understand your question as it is, as an abstract idea or otherwise. You'd have to ask an actual Japanese person.
Anyway, it's not like I disagree with what you're doing, but this is the crux of the issue, and obviously one which many people learning languages struggle to get over. It's easy to talk objectively about something (kore wa pen desu) but a lot harder to talk in abstract ideas because most of those will only be relevant to the culture.
Anyway, it's not like I disagree with what you're doing, but this is the crux of the issue, and obviously one which many people learning languages struggle to get over. It's easy to talk objectively about something (kore wa pen desu) but a lot harder to talk in abstract ideas because most of those will only be relevant to the culture.
who cares if they understand it or not? they can just learn it, no? you said so yourself a few pages back.
until an hour ago i had probably seen the words Sickle Cell like...3 or 4 times in my life. Smiles wrote the sentence, i googled it to actually see what it was and i educated myself. "Can black power cure sickle cell disease" did not make any sense to me before. now it does, cause i went and looked it up.
nobody, native japanese or not, is gonna know what that means until they read it, think about it, look it up even. then after that, they'll understand it.
is that not the entire point of why Smiles said he wants to write it? it doesn't matter whether it translates well into Japanese (or any other language for that matter). it's a question. if you don't understand it right away, that doesn't mean it's a bad sentence.
until an hour ago i had probably seen the words Sickle Cell like...3 or 4 times in my life. Smiles wrote the sentence, i googled it to actually see what it was and i educated myself. "Can black power cure sickle cell disease" did not make any sense to me before. now it does, cause i went and looked it up.
nobody, native japanese or not, is gonna know what that means until they read it, think about it, look it up even. then after that, they'll understand it.
is that not the entire point of why Smiles said he wants to write it? it doesn't matter whether it translates well into Japanese (or any other language for that matter). it's a question. if you don't understand it right away, that doesn't mean it's a bad sentence.
TheSporkWithin
Member
I want to preface this by saying that I mean no disrespect, and that ultimately it's all up to you as an artist. It doesn't affect me one way or another, and if it makes you happy or leaves you feeling satisfied to insert things like this (not said dismissively, just generally) into your work, that's absolutely fine.
I think that the reason that there's this weird pushback going on, is that translation is always a delicate business, and really it's incredibly personal. As people deep in the language learning process (and for such a radically different language with so many different aspects to it) we're all very familiar with this idea of subjectivity when it comes to translation, and so we react to this sort of thing with strange, inexplicable discomfort, like a cat being pet backwards.
The translation I posted and which you seem to have accepted as "accurate" is phrased as a musing question, but you could also posit it as a more direct question. Or you could do so with a more assertive voice, implying that it might be possible. Or a more doubtful voice, implying that it's not possible. Or more polite. Or more brusque. All of these would be accurate translations of that sentence, none of them would really make any more sense. And none of them would be "exactly what you want to convey" because you're unable to understand and create the sentences yourself.
This isn't meant as a slight against you or your ability. My point is that you could just as easily have typed that sentence into Google Translate and used that output, as I and the other posters on here have as much direct insight into your work and your art as Google Translate does. It may be more grammatically correct than whatever Google would have farted out, but it's no more artistically correct.
I think that the reason that there's this weird pushback going on, is that translation is always a delicate business, and really it's incredibly personal. As people deep in the language learning process (and for such a radically different language with so many different aspects to it) we're all very familiar with this idea of subjectivity when it comes to translation, and so we react to this sort of thing with strange, inexplicable discomfort, like a cat being pet backwards.
The translation I posted and which you seem to have accepted as "accurate" is phrased as a musing question, but you could also posit it as a more direct question. Or you could do so with a more assertive voice, implying that it might be possible. Or a more doubtful voice, implying that it's not possible. Or more polite. Or more brusque. All of these would be accurate translations of that sentence, none of them would really make any more sense. And none of them would be "exactly what you want to convey" because you're unable to understand and create the sentences yourself.
This isn't meant as a slight against you or your ability. My point is that you could just as easily have typed that sentence into Google Translate and used that output, as I and the other posters on here have as much direct insight into your work and your art as Google Translate does. It may be more grammatically correct than whatever Google would have farted out, but it's no more artistically correct.
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