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[clav]

Yeah, I loved my touch screen Casio word tank for that reason. "Reading the dictionary" was like a game in itself that I could play for hours.

For Palm Users: PADict is OK, but it's really picky how you do your strokes. If you don't follow the exact way, then it won't recognize the Kanji word you are writing. It's a free dict.

I found Kanji Sono Rama for the Nintendo DS to be a bit better for how much it is worth. I still have a physical Kanji dictionary for ones that are not in either of them.

 

[Blackace]

I I had a ball with my ball at the ball.
I'll wring his neck for stealing my ring.
The rock was thrown at the throne.

these are really bad examples about why English is one of the harder langauges to master.

because all langauges have this exact same problem. There are just some many sounds you can make.

 

[BudokaiMR2]

Yeah I might look into the hesig books, but holy shit thanks for that anki program. I am already flying through the JLPT2 cards. Are there any other sites with premade decks or anything? I'm too lazy to make them myself. ;p

Oh and yeah getting a J-J dictionary would probably be a cool idea. Might see what my junior high is using and if they have one i could at least borrow.

 

[Blackace]

Yeah I might look into the hesig books, but holy shit thanks for that anki program. I am already flying through the JLPT2 cards. Are there any other sites with premade decks or anything? I'm too lazy to make them myself. ;p

Oh and yeah getting a J-J dictionary would probably be a cool idea. Might see what my junior high is using and if they have one i could at least borrow.

JHS dictionaries might be ok if you are pretty good in kanji. But if your level of kanji isn't near your speaking level you might want to step back to elementry school

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I started using J-J (kokugo jiten and koujien) at an early stage. I also had an excellent environment, where even when I lived in the United States I was speaking more Japanese in any given day then I was speaking English. I also made a conscious effort to actually think in Japanese and I think this helped me a lot. It became second nature after a while and now I find myself thinking in Japanese more than English. The downfall of this is that I often find myself almost blurting out Japanese words when I am conversing in English, and I sometimes find it hard to think of an English equivalent of a word when doing J -> E translations. It can get really annoying at times when trying to hold a conversation and having to pause to think of a word. Maybe I'm just retarded, though.

 

[RevenantKioku]

Yeah I might look into the hesig books, but holy shit thanks for that anki program. I am already flying through the JLPT2 cards. Are there any other sites with premade decks or anything? I'm too lazy to make them myself. ;p

I'm doing the sentence studying method so it's all self made. It takes a little effort, but it's really not that bad. Especially since you know I am way lazier than you, dude.

I found Kanji Sono Rama for the Nintendo DS to be a bit better for how much it is worth. I still have a physical Kanji dictionary for ones that are not in either of them.

I love Rakubiki Jiten. I bought a second DS to dedicate my older one to it!

 

[BudokaiMR2]

I started using J-J (kokugo jiten and koujien) at an early stage. I also had an excellent environment, where even when I lived in the United States I was speaking more Japanese in any given day then I was speaking English. I also made a conscious effort to actually think in Japanese and I think this helped me a lot. It became second nature after a while and now I find myself thinking in Japanese more than English. The downfall of this is that I often find myself almost blurting out Japanese words when I am conversing in English, and I sometimes find it hard to think of an English equivalent of a word when doing J -> E translations. It can get really annoying at times when trying to hold a conversation and having to pause to think of a word. Maybe I'm just retarded, though.

Nah that exact same stuff happened to me after living in Kansai for a year. It has started happening again now that I immersed completely. It's always really simple shit for me, makes me feel like an idiot.

 

[karasu]

Somebody make one for French!

 

[clav]

My sensei recommended me this book for studying Kanji:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/4893580914/?tag=neogaf0e-20

It's only up to 500 words. Comes in two volumes.

Any other ones besides the Heisig method?

 

[Cheesemeister]

I use this site: http://www.jlpt-kanji.com/

 

[Zoe]

Do people still go for electronic dictionaries, or has the DS cornered that market :lol

I have Rakuten but never got a chance to try it before the bf took the DS away

 

[clav]

Do people still go for electronic dictionaries, or has the DS cornered that market :lol

I have Rakuten but never got a chance to try it before the bf took the DS away

For the price you pay for Rakuten, it's pretty amazing how it can identifying your Kanji letters with/without using the proper strokes.

 

[clav]

I use this site: http://www.jlpt-kanji.com/

Thanks. Looks like I'll have to start from level 3.

Is there no online equivalent of A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar?

I'm really tempted to buy this. Also, I'm taking second year Japanese. How much will the first volume (basic) will cover? I'm wondering if I need to purchase the Immediate level.

 

[tnw]

I started using J-J (kokugo jiten and koujien) at an early stage. I also had an excellent environment, where even when I lived in the United States I was speaking more Japanese in any given day then I was speaking English. I also made a conscious effort to actually think in Japanese and I think this helped me a lot. It became second nature after a while and now I find myself thinking in Japanese more than English. The downfall of this is that I often find myself almost blurting out Japanese words when I am conversing in English, and I sometimes find it hard to think of an English equivalent of a word when doing J -> E translations. It can get really annoying at times when trying to hold a conversation and having to pause to think of a word. Maybe I'm just retarded, though.

Funny, I'm actually making a conscious effort to do the opposite. :lol

I remember the first couple months of being a CIR, I couldn't wait until the weekend when i could hang out with some non-Japanese people and speak English.

Japan and Japanese were important to me, and I did everything that you mentioned too, but Japan isn't really my goal, just something i wanted to do for awhile.

My life has far too much 'J' in it. OMG can anyone on GAf understand that?!?!?!?!?!

 

[RevenantKioku]

Thanks. Looks like I'll have to start from level 3.

Is there no online equivalent of A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar?

I'm really tempted to buy this. Also, I'm taking second year Japanese. How much will the first volume (basic) will cover? I'm wondering if I need to purchase the Immediate level.

I don't regret having both. I still refer to Basic once in a while.
The books are really more like Basic~Intermediate and Intermediate~Advanced in terms of levels.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Funny, I'm actually making a conscious effort to do the opposite. :lol

I remember the first couple months of being a CIR, I couldn't wait until the weekend when i could hang out with some non-Japanese people and speak English.

Japan and Japanese were important to me, and I did everything that you mentioned too, but Japan isn't really my goal, just something i wanted to do for awhile.

My life has far too much 'J' in it. OMG can anyone on GAf understand that?!?!?!?!?!

Interesting. I definitely plan on living in Japan for the rest of my life, so it's not really a problem for me, but it definitely can get annoying when doing translation work. Are you still working as a CIR now? How did you like it?

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Do people still go for electronic dictionaries, or has the DS cornered that market :lol

I have Rakuten but never got a chance to try it before the bf took the DS away

I have the Rakubiki Jiten, but I don't like it that much. It's a pain in the ass to change carts and boot the system up when you just want to look something up quickly. I also don't like the interface very much. I find a good electronic dictionary to be much better. The amount of entries in the Rakubiki Jiten is also fairly slim in comparison to most dictionaries.

 

[tnw]

Interesting. I definitely plan on living in Japan for the rest of my life, so it's not really a problem for me, but it definitely can get annoying when doing translation work. Are you still working as a CIR now? How did you like it?

CIR was a long time ago actually. It was fun, but I'm glad I left when I did and moved to Tokyo. Found a perfect job for me at the time.

 

[brocke]

RK, I read the intro to that Remembering the 漢字and the first chapter. But I still don't get what they mean by a primitive element. Can you or anyone enlighten me on this? Thanks.

And as far as that Japanese All The Time method, how do I find enough listening material to listen to it all the time if I live in the USA?

 

[Rahnter]

Would anyone mind suggesting some DS software that may be helpful for a first year student. Something along the lines of J-E or E-J dictionary, with audio pronunciations (if possible), or a kanji dictionary, that receives a written input. Any suggestions would be helpful.

 

[Xisiqomelir]

I always hear people say this. But why? What makes English so complicated to know?

There's a dearth of syntactic or semantic inflection in English, so you need a much larger vocabulary to handle meanings which in other languages can be conjugated or declinated away. English is very hard for new learners.

On-topic, this thread is awesome. I want to start trying this myself once I get free time later this year.

 

[Shouta]

There's a dearth of syntactic or semantic inflection in English, so you need a much larger vocabulary to handle meanings which in other languages can be conjugated or declinated away. English is very hard for new learners.

On-topic, this thread is awesome. I want to start trying this myself once I get free time later this year.

English is hard for old learners too. =P

 

[clav]

Would anyone mind suggesting some DS software that may be helpful for a first year student. Something along the lines of J-E or E-J dictionary, with audio pronunciations (if possible), or a kanji dictionary, that receives a written input. Any suggestions would be helpful.

Kanji Sono Mama Jiten

It's the only one available.

 

[dark10x]

Heh, I'm sure it's been mentioned, but JWPCE is an awesome program that allows you to look up kanji by radical, store them in a neat format, and then use them with JFC as flashcards (should you be into flashcards, of course).

Along with actual studies, I've also used the "Bebpo method" of playing games and learning from there. Of course, you need to reach a certain level of knowledge before attempting it, but once you're there, you can learn all sorts of new words and remember them. Playing through a bunch of JRPGs with JWPCE by your side for those kanji you don't know is fantastic. Eventually, you'll barely even need to consult the program.

That's not to say games are written with grammar you'd use everyday or anything, but they do help you to learn a lot of characters if you didn't already know them. Some of them are useful, some are not, but even the crazy ass words you'll rarely use can contain characters you will.

Of course, I suppose this is really just an extension of "All Japanese All The Time" (which I had never even heard of till now) in that you just apply yourself to something fun. Works for me, though.

 

[AtomskEater]

Awesome thread. Second semester of Japanese (where we being to learn more complicated grammar) is kicking my ass, so I'll definitely look up some of these learning tools. And I fear kanji from all of this heated discussion about it.

 

[RevenantKioku]

RK, I read the intro to that Remembering the 漢字and the first chapter. But I still don't get what they mean by a primitive element. Can you or anyone enlighten me on this? Thanks.

A "primitive element" is either a kanji, radical or just common combination of strokes which you remember first in order to remember other kanji.

Taking my earlier example:

The primitive elements here are mouth, license and walking legs.
Mouth is on the left side and is an actual kanji (&#21475.
License is on the top of the right side and itself is a kanji (&#20801 made up up of the primitive elements of elbow and human legs. Heisig actually has you learn this kanji right before tempt.
And below "license" is the primitive element for "walking legs". Technically it's a kanji, I guess, but my dictionaries only define it as the winter radical so let's just leave it as a primitive element.
To remember this one, I associated "license" above "walking legs" as a prostitute, in case this combination appears later (which it does). Then "tempt" is just a little bit off if you can imagine a prostitute tempting someone with her mouth.
But as time passes and you keep studying and reviewing, eventually the kanji just "pops" into your head as soon as you see the keyword. You don't have to think out the story like you did the first few times.

Eventually the idea is to go from having English Keyword -> Kanji to Kanji -> readable.

And it does actually work. Budokai was mocking me last night and asking if I knew how to read things like "我慢." But after I looked it up, and having already known the Japanese word and it's meaning, I just had to link everything together in my brain and now when I think "がまん" I 'see' the kanji in my head.

 

[tnw]

I've never heard of radicals being described as 'primitive elements'

 

[RevenantKioku]

I've never heard of radicals being described as 'primitive elements'

Because the pieces he uses are not always radicals. So in his book anything that makes up part of another kanji is a primitive element.

Actually, correct me if I'm wrong, is there anything that isn't technically a radical?

 

[tnw]

the term just sounds mellowdratic. Like something out of a jrpg growth system. Why can't they just be elements instead of 'primitive' elements if the author wants to make that distinction

I'm not 100% sure about radicals, but radicals have more than one shape.

 

[RevenantKioku]

the term just sounds mellowdratic. Like something out of a jrpg growth system. Why can't they just be elements instead of 'primitive' elements if the author wants to make that distinction

My, this sure pisses you off, doesn't it? I don't know why he called them that, but it's irrelevant, really.

I'm not 100% sure about radicals, but radicals have more than one shape.

Ah, well each shape gets a different, yet slightly similar meaning.
Like 思 性 添 each have the 心 radical in different forms, right?
The first one is 'heart', the second is 'state of mind' and the third is 'valentine'. So this is used to help you keep straight which form is used where.

水 is water but like in 涙 it's 'drops of water'

 

[tnw]

sounds (overly) complicated.

but maybe that's just because I already know what those characters mean.

 

[jooey]

the helpfulness-to-bickering ratio in this thread is getting out of hand.

 

[RevenantKioku]

Hey, I fully expected a lot of nay-saying from the Japanese learning veterans when it comes to Heisig. It's just natural. If you're beginning, I honestly recommend you give it a look. Read his intro and give it a shot with the first few chapters. (Hell, they're free.) It really didn't 100% click for me until maybe chapter 4 or 5, but it really worked for me.

It was a little bit a day (maybe an hour, sometimes two) for 3 months and now it's maybe a half hour a day of review. And my kanji skills are just continuing to bloom in terms of reading as well.

But to boost the usefulness of this thread, here's a link of some Japanese classic literature in MP3 form.

http://www.speaking-japanese.com/breaking/

 

[Link1110]

I I had a ball with my ball at the ball.
I'll wring his neck for stealing my ring.
The rock was thrown at the throne.

these are really bad examples about why English is one of the harder langauges to master.

because all langauges have this exact same problem. There are just some many sounds you can make.

For elaboration;
shitai ni shitai desu 死体にしたいです
oresama ga kami to kami no kami da　オレ様が髪と紙の神！

I won't even go into all the goofy female names you can make, just using anything ending in "ko."

 

[BudokaiMR2]

And it does actually work. Budokai was mocking me last night and asking if I knew how to read things like "我慢." But after I looked it up, and having already known the Japanese word and it's meaning, I just had to link everything together in my brain and now when I think "がまん" I 'see' the kanji in my head.

I am definitely not saying it's a useless method. I just don't know how much it will help me.

I believe it has something to do with the fact that you are basically studying your ass off in order to even start the learning process. In a way it strikes me as sort of roundabout although I guess you could also look at it as the most direct route. That and a lot of times it's hard to just pin down a single meaning for a kanji because of the way the compounds can combine(without making very much sense sometimes). I could see that being confusing.

Seems like it would work out to be a crutch that can help you immensely, but just like any crutch it would have such drawbacks.

But what the hell do I know.

For the record I am still contemplating asking mayu to get me this as a valentines present. But for me its more as a sort of trivia thing where I would know kanji that japanese people don't. ;p

 

[RevenantKioku]

That's where the trick of only studying from keyword -> kanji comes in.

Later on when you see the kanji, you won't immediately associate it with the keyword. You might, but you haven't trained yourself on that account. But when you see the keyword, you train yourself to "bring out" the kanji. So eventually you become intimate with the kanji in this matter. Later on you do the same thing in a way but go kanji -> reading.

So it goes like this.

Keyword -> Kanji -> Reading (And meaning in this word/context)

What you're thinking of confusing is doing this:

Kanji -> Keyword then later Kanji -> Meaning/Reading

This is where confusion comes in and why I yelled at sp0rsk earlier.

Like I said, I got a 1級 guy hooked on this method, so obviously it's not all that bad.

 

[brocke]

I don't know why (I read through the 2nd chapter), but this keyword thing is confusing me. What does he mean by identifying by the keyword? Does he mean when I think of the keyword "bird" I will know the kanji?

 

[RevenantKioku]

I don't know why (I read through the 2nd chapter), but this keyword thing is confusing me. What does he mean by identifying by the keyword? Does he mean when I think of the keyword "bird" I will know the kanji?

Eventually. First it's keyword brings out a visual story (which you make based on the primitive elements) and then that story reminds you of the primitive elements and their placement and then you can draw the kanji.
Then with practice you're just remembering the kanji instantly based on the keyword.
Then when you're at my step you're just learning vocab by seeing it in the wild.

The difference is I didn't have to "train my hand" about the stroke orders and all that by writing 100s of times. Just once per kanji when learning and each time it is reviewed.

 

[clav]

My sensei recommended me this book for studying Kanji:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/4893580914/?tag=neogaf0e-20

It's only up to 500 words. Comes in two volumes.

Any other ones besides the Heisig method?

So no objections to the Kanji book I suggested?

Will buy later today or tomorrow.

 

[RevenantKioku]

So no objections to the Kanji book I suggested?

Will buy later today or tomorrow.

I looked at it and it seemed like your generic run of the mill shit, but as you can tell I'm hard for Heisig. *shrug*

 

[Link1110]

Hey, I fully expected a lot of nay-saying from the Japanese learning veterans when it comes to Heisig. It's just natural. If you're beginning, I honestly recommend you give it a look. Read his intro and give it a shot with the first few chapters. (Hell, they're free.) It really didn't 100% click for me until maybe chapter 4 or 5, but it really worked for me.

It was a little bit a day (maybe an hour, sometimes two) for 3 months and now it's maybe a half hour a day of review. And my kanji skills are just continuing to bloom in terms of reading as well.

But to boost the usefulness of this thread, here's a link of some Japanese classic literature in MP3 form.

http://www.speaking-japanese.com/breaking/

I've been looking at it (since I suck at kanji,) it seems pretty good, but if you start well enough into learning Japanese as I have, the keywords are a bit hard to swallow because half the words you already know in Japanese. I'm giving the sample a good shake, because the book seems cheap enough used on Amazon, so I'll have to see how it goes.

Just one gripe, he uses 吾 for the I keyword? 私　seems like it would be a more common kanji for that, even 俺 is used far more often than 吾, and even then, whenever I've seen "ware," it's always been written as 我. [/nitpicking]

 

[RevenantKioku]

私 gets 'private' which actually makes more sense.
Just roll with it. I had been studying for years and my 1級 buddy even longer and I got through the book fine and he's doing well too. It doesn't seem obvious now but the keywords aren't as important as you'd think. They help but it's more about getting really familiar with 2000 kanji and remembering them.
You gotta believe!

 

[clav]

私 gets 'private' which actually makes more sense.
Just roll with it. I had been studying for years and my 1級 buddy even longer and I got through the book fine and he's doing well too. It doesn't seem obvious now but the keywords aren't as important as you'd think. They help but it's more about getting really familiar with 2000 kanji and remembering them.
You gotta believe!

Question though. So you are just remembering the English meaning, not the pronunciation?

I mean, wouldn't it be beneficial to learn Chinese first? With Chinese, you would know the meanings of the smaller characters, and build your understanding how other ones fit from there.

Edit: Ok ok. I'll give it a try from now until the end of the summer. This thread changed my mind.

http://forum.koohii.com/viewtopic.php?id=1055&p=1

Edit 2: The author claims this book is detrimental to classroom Japanese study. Um...?

 

[Kildace]

I've been working on my Japanese for a little over 3 months now. I'm using a french beginner book that, while okay, is nothing spectacular either and I'm almost done with it.
There's a second volume in that series but before I dig into it I was wondering if anyone had advice on a quality book for beginners. I'm probably going to try out the Heisig method for Kanjis but I want a solid vocabulary / grammar book to complement it. Does anyone have any advice for beginners?

 

[RevenantKioku]

Question though. So you are just remembering the English meaning, not the pronunciation?

When I was studying kanji before Heisig I was learning the English meaning, the writing, several on/kun readings and some examples of usage. That was all that information at once.
Heisig's method is seperating it. Learn those 2000 kanji writing/'one meaning' first. Then move on to reading. So yes, a lot of kanji right now I only know an English keyword and how to write it. But I'm slowly discovering through context how to read them. And it's sticking very well.

I mean, wouldn't it be beneficial to learn Chinese first? With Chinese, you would know the meanings of the smaller characters, and build your understanding how other ones fit from there.

You've got time to learn Chinese? Go ahead! :lol

Edit: Ok ok. I'll give it a try from now until the end of the summer. This thread changed my mind.

Good luck! It takes some effort, for sure but I've found the payoff to be well worth it.

http://forum.koohii.com/viewtopic.php?id=1055&p=1

Edit 2: The author claims this book is detrimental to classroom Japanese study. Um...?

I wouldn't say detrimental but it doesn't really work in classroom study. You couldn't use Heisig's book as a textbook for a class because the book is designed for you to go at your own pace, use your own mental imagery and so on.

 

[tnw]

I mean, wouldn't it be beneficial to learn Chinese first? With Chinese, you would know the meanings of the smaller characters, and build your understanding how other ones fit from there.

Not really. I started japanese in Junior high, then took Chinese in high school and then switched back to Japanese in late high school/college.

The Chinese writing system is different, and whether you're learning traditional or simplified characters, they can be totally different sometimes.

As I mentioned earlier, some characters and kanji combinations have totally different meanings in their respective languages.

 

[sprsk]

There is a program called Wakan that I hear is pretty cool. If you are interested in a good way to practice Kanji you should check it out.

 

[brocke]

There has to be more japanese podcasts out there. Anyone find anything?

 

[Askia47]

theres jpod101 and japancast, those are the only two i know.

 

[brocke]

No i don't mean those types of podcasts. I'm looking for longer podcasts all in japanese so i can listen to it as background noise.