Support NeoGAF

[marvelharvey]

Not going to start a thread for this one stupid question. But as a Mac user, how do I type a small katakana 'i'? As in pa-tei- (party). No matter what keyboard combo I try it doesn't work, and for months, I've just had to use google and copy'n'paste the katakana into whatever email I'm typing.

 

[RevenantKioku]

So what you are saying is that if I just randomly said a word in Japanese you could write it in Kanzi?

Nope. Although I could get lucky.

Or that you could could word for word (a bablefish translation if you will), write out a Japanese newspaper headline in English, after only 3 months?

Nope. But I'm not sure what this has to do with learning to write kanji.

Sorry...I just can't...believe that...

That's good as no one is asking you to! But if you show me a kanji I know it's stroke order entirely. And have a rough idea of what it could mean. And when I learn a new word I don't have to spend time learning how to write the kanji. (Most of the time at least. I still run into the occasional kanji I don't know how to write, but I can pick it up in a few minutes.)

I have done the whole bar/drunk mess with a Japanese person write the kanzi for "rose" thing. Good way to make money, but just because I can and they can't has nothing to do with language ability.

And this is where you're wrong. Unless you're saying writing Japanese isn't part of Japanese. Not to mention knowing the kanji intimately enough to write really helps you learn how to read. It sure is helping me.

Fine. Maybe I am completely wrong. If I am that means that with this method, I could be able to write 3,000 kazi in 1 month just because I already have a head start...

very doubtful...

Please realize that this is 'write' as in just knowing how to write. Like you can learn how to write the entire roman Alphabet in a couple of hours and have it memorized in a few days. Except there are a couple of thousand kanji. And kanji basically have a 'meaning' attached to them.
And since I did have a head start, once I learned kanji that were in words I already knew, it made the attachment of kanji to word completely easy. I see things on TV all the time which, thankfully subtitled, allows me to connect words to kanji quite easily.

The biggest thing this does is break down that 'oh my dear good look at all these foreign characters' barrier. I just have to learn how to pronounce them.

Maybe that doesn't seem like a big deal to you, but it is huge to me.

Not going to start a thread for this one stupid question. But as a Mac user, how do I type a small katakana 'i'? As in pa-tei- (party). No matter what keyboard combo I try it doesn't work, and for months, I've just had to use google and copy'n'paste the katakana into whatever email I'm typing.

xa ぁ
xi ぃ
xu ぅ
xe ぇ
xo ぉ

 

[BudokaiMR2]

Not going to start a thread for this one stupid question. But as a Mac user, how do I type a small katakana 'i'? As in pa-tei- (party). No matter what keyboard combo I try it doesn't work, and for months, I've just had to use google and copy'n'paste the katakana into whatever email I'm typing.

パーティ

I just write out thi and it pops up. Not really sure why but it works.

 

[marvelharvey]

Thanks guys, both of your solutions do the trick!

 

[sasimirobot]

Nope. Although I could get lucky.

Nope. But I'm not sure what this has to do with learning to write kanji.


That's good as no one is asking you to! But if you show me a kanji I know it's stroke order entirely. And have a rough idea of what it could mean. And when I learn a new word I don't have to spend time learning how to write the kanji. (Most of the time at least. I still run into the occasional kanji I don't know how to write, but I can pick it up in a few minutes.)


And this is you're wrong. Unless you're saying writing Japanese isn't part of Japanese. Not to mention knowing the kanji intimately enough to write really helps you learn how to read. It sure is helping me.


Please realize that this is 'write' as in just knowing how to write. Like you can learn how to write the entire roman Alphabet in a couple of hours and have it memorized in a few days. Except there are a couple of thousand kanji. And kanji basically have a 'meaning' attached to them.
And since I did have a head start, once I learned kanji that were in words I already knew, it made the attachment of kanji to word completely easy. I see things on TV all the time which, thankfully subtitled, allows me to connect words to kanji quite easily.

The biggest thing this does is break down that 'oh my dear good look at all these foreign characters' barrier. I just have to learn how to pronounce them.

Maybe that doesn't seem like a big deal to you, but it is huge to me.



xa ぁ
xi ぃ
xu ぅ
xe ぇ
xo ぉ

oh...I understand now. Stroke order, simple radicals, etc..

If I show you the Kanzi for "thank you" then you could [copy] it perfectly stroke for stroke, but not use it in a sentence...

Ok. I guess I was thinking too deeply about it.

sorry...

[edit]
So basically what you are saying is that, for example, I show the word "ubiquitous" to a Japanese person, and they can write it, with a perfect stroke order, the "u" starting from the left a curve going from left to right, then the b, a down stroke, etc...

this is what you are gettting at? No meaning, no context, no understanding other than how to write it down, in real time (you could write english from right to left if liked and nobody would know), and this is the bomb shit secret that this thread holds?

 

[RevenantKioku]

oh...I understand now. Stroke order, simple radicals, etc..

If I show you the Kanzi for "thank you" then you could [copy] it perfectly stroke for stroke, but not use it in a sentence...

Ok. I guess I was thinking too deeply about it.

sorry...

Yeah, but that almost feels (to me) like it's selling it a bit short. There's a familiarity that is gained with the kanji at the end that's really worthwhile.
I just heard 自主的 on TV, saw the subs, looked it up in my Elementary School dictionary (lal) and bam! New word.

 

[NaughtyCalibur]

This thread is great! Thank you!

I got a DS and am going to be investing in that game you mentioned in the OP. I'm also going to be buying those books over time. This is the second time I've tried studying Japanese before I got bored/burned out and quit (albeit, my study methods were TERRIBLE; watching those horrid "My name is Yan" videos and listening to Pimsleur, while learning one hiragana a week), and this time I'm getting serious about it.

I'm confident to say that I've only been studying for a short while and I already know all of the hiragana (reading and writing), which isn't saying much I know, but I'm really proud of myself for even making it this far. It's strange that when I see hiragana in a book, or in an anime or on a website I can instantly make it out and READ it. I never thought I'd be able to read Japanese, even if it's just a little bit for right now. I think my weakest point at the moment is my vocabulary. I think I know only about 100 words or something? Yeah, I suck... but I just started. :lol

Anyway, I'm really excited to take it to the next level with kanji. Just thinking about being able to play Japanese videogames or watch anime raw (no subs) gives me goosebumps. However, I have to admit that the All-Japanese-All-The-Time method is really hard for me to do. I'm too stubborn to give up all the things I love, which include the shows/movies I watch, the music I listen to and talking to my [American] friends on TeamSpeak for several hours a day. I know for a fact that I'm not getting in nearly enough study time to really learn this language because of these activities, but I seem to lack the discipline to limit myself, let alone eliminate these things all together. Guess I need to lock myself down or something. >_<

Crazy or not, I give the guy who started that site a lot of credit. As much as I want to go the "all Japanese" route, I just can't see myself even coming close. I get burned out on Japanese music after about 100 songs and am itching to go back to English ones. Then, if the option for watching an anime in English dub is there I'll almost always take it, even if the dub is absolutely atrocious. This shit has to stop, and I know it. Nevertheless, this thread has given me a bit of inspiration, and I'm determined to go all the way with learning Japanese, even if it means making sacrifices. I'm not going to let myself give up... not this time.

 

[Zoe]

Another random Windows input question...

Is there any way to get the tenten marks on any kana? You see it a lot in manga when they're trying to place emphasis on the sounds.

 

[LiveFromKyoto]

I can write 2000 kanji after 3 months.

No you can't. Not trying to be a dick, but what you're saying is ridiculous and kind of demeaning towards the amount of genuine effort learning the full 1Q set takes. You might recognize a bunch of them on sight, but that's a whole different ball of wax. And not 2000, sorry, but that's impossible unless you're absorbing more than 20 a day, in which case you can have everything in the kanjiken by the end of the year and just go right ahead and claim your Phd. I know what you're saying is massively exaggerated because even most native speakers can't write all 1900-odd high school kanji on command without checking a few, and that's after a lifetime of being absorbed in them.

Either way, keep studying. I don't mean to put down your efforts, and people who genuinely make an effort to learn the language in any meaningful way at all - much less read or write - are all too rare.

 

[Deadly Monk]

I've picked up every Kodansha book I could find. They're all worth the price paid.

But yes, exposure is the best thing you can do. I didn't watch or read or play anything in English for months. This pissed off a lot of my friends but it helped a lot.

Also, making Kanji goals every month is a must. I started at 20 a week and moved on to 100 a month. Now, the key is to repeat what you learned the week before EVERY week. It has to become a part of you. Most people forget in a matter of weeks a single Kanji.

Chinese is a lot easier for me now thanks to the Kanji "conditioning" I put myself through.

 

[Blackace]

Yeah, but that almost feels (to me) like it's selling it a bit short. There's a familiarity that is gained with the kanji at the end that's really worthwhile.
I just heard &#33258;&#20027;&#30340; on TV, saw the subs, looked it up in my Elementary School dictionary (lal) and bam! New word.

Not saying your way won't work but you could hear a word and look it up with any method of learning, no?

Dictionaries aren't based on kanji but hiragana (sound). I, as someone who studies in a different method than you, could hear a word and look it up..

 

[sprsk]

For fucks sake the proper romanization of kanji is K-A-N-J-I.

In defense of RK, I have to say that this method is very effective. Not just because it kinda cheats around remembering kanji, but it also reorganizes things so they are a lot easier to remember.

Take for instance &#26085;&#12288;&#26376;&#12288;&#21475; three "primitives" you learn in the first chapter of the book. You don't just learn those three characters then go straight into some other totally unrelated characters. You learn a whole bunch of kanji that are made up of those characters. It makes learning how to write and read these things a lot easier and is much better for memorizing.

Perhaps I have the benefit of knowing a lot of Japanese and knowing a good amount of kanji already, (mind you, "know" means that I can read them sometimes, can't write them though) but I think even if I didn't it would make things so much easier.

What's the point of brute forcing kanji when there's a much more elegant way of learning it out there?

 

[Beezy]

I saw "big ass" and immediately clicked on this thread. Then I saw "japanese".

 

[sasimirobot]

For fucks sake the proper romanization of kanji is K-A-N-J-I.

"Nippon-shiki is considered the most regular of the romanization systems for the Japanese language"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihon-shiki

no need to get rude

 

[sprsk]

"Nippon-shiki is considered the most regular of the romanization systems for the Japanese language"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihon-shiki

no need to get rude

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/kanji

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/kanzi

 

[scottnak]

Hmm. So I'm interested in some Kanji DS honing tools.

I see the one linked in the OP is an 'enhanced dictionary' of sorts.
I'm sort of looking for some kind of quality DS game that sort of quizzes you / tests you / helps you on some. I don't know really how to explain it,

but... I guess to bottom line it, any other quality Kanji DS programs out there? haha

 

[brocke]

For fucks sake the proper romanization of kanji is K-A-N-J-I.

In defense of RK, I have to say that this method is very effective. Not just because it kinda cheats around remembering kanji, but it also reorganizes things so they are a lot easier to remember.

Take for instance &#26085;&#12288;&#26376;&#12288;&#21475; three "primitives" you learn in the first chapter of the book. You don't just learn those three characters then go straight into some other totally unrelated characters. You learn a whole bunch of kanji that are made up of those characters. It makes learning how to write and read these things a lot easier and is much better for memorizing.

Perhaps I have the benefit of knowing a lot of Japanese and knowing a good amount of kanji already, (mind you, "know" means that I can read them sometimes, can't write them though) but I think even if I didn't it would make things so much easier.

What's the point of brute forcing kanji when there's a much more elegant way of learning it out there?

Since you just got started on the book, do you have any suggestions for how many to do per day? I tried 50 per day at first but ended up wanting to kill myself because it was soo hard.

 

[sprsk]

Since you just got started on the book, do you have any suggestions for how many to do per day? I tried 50 per day at first but ended up wanting to kill myself because it was soo hard.

If you have no Japanese exp, try 20 a day.

 

[brocke]

If you have no Japanese exp, try 20 a day.

I have taken Japanese for 4 semesters, but in that whole time we went through a total of only 250 kanji. So yeah I will say I have limited Japanese experience. And this process is more about how well your creative memory is rather than directly coordinated to the amount of Japanese experience one has.

 

[sprsk]

I have taken Japanese for 4 semesters, but in that whole time we went through a total of only 250 kanji. So yeah I will say I have limited Japanese experience. And this process is more about how well your creative memory is rather than directly coordinated to the amount of Japanese experience one has.

Don't just read the book btw, you're gonna have to write the kanji out a few times and remember to go back and test yourself. While you're writing out the kanji don't forget to go over the images in your head.

 

[sasimirobot]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/kanji

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/kanzi

so you are saying that the Official-Government romanization (not to mention the International Organization for Standardization) of Japanese is not good enough for you?

lets not get started on how much better si/tu/zi/ha vs. shi/tsu/ji/wa
is from a linguistic angle...

 

[BudokaiMR2]

so you are saying that the Official-Government romanization (not to mention the International Organization for Standardization) of Japanese is not good enough for you?

lets not get started on how much better si/tu/zi/ha vs. shi/tsu/ji/wa
is from a linguistic angle...

What

Except if you ever hear someone say the word &#28450;&#23383;&#12288;THEY SAY FUCKING KANJI! How is it a better linguistic angle when it's fucking useless and no one says it?

I'm sorry but it's just silly. No one says susi in reference to sushi.

 

[sasimirobot]

What

Except if you ever hear someone say the word &#28450;&#23383;&#12288;THEY SAY FUCKING KANJI! How is it a better linguistic angle when it's fucking useless and no one says it?

I'm sorry but it's just silly. No one says susi in reference to sushi.

silly...

nobody says "su-si", or nobody says "su-shi"...

funny how you are so stuck on a romanizaztion that fits your you way of speaking, no matter that Japanese isn't English, lets just fit it into your little world of English letters and "care-ree-o-key"
you are right, it should be easy to read...
for you.

Lets not follow logic, lets make Japanese fit Anime subtitles just because that is how it is (for noobs)

 

[RevenantKioku]

Not saying your way won't work but you could hear a word and look it up with any method of learning, no?

Dictionaries aren't based on kanji but hiragana (sound). I, as someone who studies in a different method than you, could hear a word and look it up..

I think you're missing the point. My point was I didn't have to stop and study any of the kanji in that word as I already knew them.

 

[sasimirobot]

I think you're missing the point. My point was I didn't have to stop and study any of the kanji in that word as I already knew them.

no you don't "know" them, any more than I "know" how to write a smiley face, starting with the left eye, next right eye, mouth, and then circle.

Glad to see the bullshit in this thread be called out.

 

[RevenantKioku]

no you don't "know" them, any more than I "know" how to write a smiley face, starting with the left eye, next right eye, mouth, and then circle.

Glad to see the bullshit in this thread be called out.

Just leave this thread. You're wasting the time of everyone who's making progress and trying to learn.
My Japanese is getting better quickly and I don't have to spend time rote memorizing. If this offends you, I'm sorry but I don't know what else to say.

 

[sasimirobot]

Just leave this thread. You're wasting the time of everyone who's making progress and trying to learn.
My Japanese is getting better quickly and I don't have to spend time rote memorizing. If this offends you, I'm sorry but I don't know what else to say.

whatever. its funny how "everyone who's trying to learn" doesn't include people like me, just because I don't jump into the Kanzi in 4 days camp...

no offended at all, but I'm not gonna sit here and let some gimmick fool people into thinking 3000 kanzi is something that you learn overnight...

 

[sprsk]

whatever. its funny how "everyone who's trying to learn" doesn't include people like me, just because I don't jump into the Kanzi in 4 days camp...

no offended at all, but I'm not gonna sit here and let some gimmick fool people into thinking 3000 kanzi is something that you learn overnight...

No one is saying that.

PS wtf at the anime comment.

 

[RevenantKioku]

whatever. its funny how "everyone who's trying to learn" doesn't include people like me, just because I don't jump into the Kanzi in 4 days camp...

no offended at all, but I'm not gonna sit here and let some gimmick fool people into thinking 3000 kanzi is something that you learn overnight...

Here I am saying "Here's a method that helped me." and you're saying "No, it doesn't work."

You're still trying to fight the point that I know everything about every kanji and I'm not saying that at all. I know I have a lot to go with readings. But I have writing done. If you somehow believe that is meaningless more power to you but it has significantly helped me with my Japanese progress.
What do you want me to say?

And it's not a gimmick. It's just a different way of approaching the writing.

And I love how now it's 4 days and then one night. :lol
This method still takes effort, just a different kind. And it's very useful too!

To put things simply I went from the stage of "WHAT THE HELL ARE THOSE CHARACTERS?!?!" to "What's that word?" That's really significant, I feel.

 

[sasimirobot]

Here I am saying "Here's a method that helped me." and you're saying "No, it doesn't work."

You're still trying to fight the point that I know everything about every kanji and I'm not saying that at all. I know I have a lot to go with readings. But I have writing done. If you somehow believe that is meaningless more power to you but it has significantly helped me with my Japanese progress.
What do you want me to say?

And it's not a gimmick. It's just a different way of approaching the writing.

copy. you mean copy

so everyone in the world that know how to write "the" in English knows all the ways to use it? So what?

I can teach my 3 year old nephew how to spell T-H-E, just because English had 26 letters doesn't make knowing all of them a part of being fluent.

 

[RevenantKioku]

copy. you mean copy

Copy would imply that I need to have the kanji in front of me to know how to write it, but I don't. So, again, what?
But sure, if you want to disregard the other things I said, that's fine. Look, you're shitting up this thread more than you're worth.
Yes, everyone knows languages don't happen overnight. Thanks.

 

[sprsk]

copy. you mean copy

so everyone in the world that know how to write "the" in English knows all the ways to use it? So what?

I can teach my 3 year old nephew how to spell T-H-E, just because English had 26 letters doesn't make knowing all of them a part of being fluent.

You don't just copy, you learn the meanings also.

 

[RevenantKioku]

I can teach my 3 year old nephew how to spell T-H-E, just because English had 26 letters doesn't make knowing all of them a part of being fluent.

:lol
What? HEY GUYS WANNA BE FLUENT IN A LANGUAGE? WELL GUESS WHAT? YOU DON'T NEED TO KNOW THE CHARACTERS USED TO READ OR WRITE THE LANGUAGE!!!

 

[sasimirobot]

Copy would imply that I need to have the kanji in front of me to know how to write it, but I don't. So, again, what?
But sure, if you want to disregard the other things I said, that's fine. Look, you're shitting up this thread more than you're worth.
Yes, everyone knows languages don't happen overnight. Thanks.

how am I "shitting up" this thread? Ok OK. Japanese is easy, anyone can do it. Kanzi no problem, play Ouendan for for a few hours, or lean super basic kanzi strokes for moon and get a job a Nintendo no problem

 

[RevenantKioku]

how am I "shitting up" this thread? Ok OK. Japanese is easy, anyone can do it.

Yes. Anyone can do it. Why not?

Kanzi no problem

It really isn't. You don't have to be scared of the big bad kanji.

play Ouendan for for a few hours, or lean super basic kanzi strokes for moon and get a job a Nintendo no problem

Now you're just being silly.
Yes, it takes dedication. Yes, it takes effort. I'm not denying that.

 

[sprsk]

You're shitting up this thread because of completely off-base and insulting remarks like: "play Ouendan for for a few hours, or lean super basic kanzi strokes for moon and get a job a Nintendo no problem."

 

[sasimirobot]

You don't just copy, you learn the meanings also.

nobody in this tread knows the meaning of 3000 kanzi, unless they are Chinese/Japanese.

No . just no

 

[sasimirobot]

For fucks sake the proper romanization of kanji is K-A-N-J-I.

this is an insult

 

[sprsk]

this is an insult

No, it's spelling.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

nobody in this tread knows the meaning of 3000 kanzi, unless they are Chinese/Japanese.

No . just no

What? You need to be Chinese or Japanese to understand the meaning of Kanji now? I beg to differ.

Besides, a hell of a lot of Chinese and particularly Japanese people do not know the meaning of many individual Kanji. They learned them through context and most people who are not linguists do not care to study the meanings.

 

[sasimirobot]

No, it's spelling.

how do you spell "chicken curry" in Thai?

Doesn't really matter, unless you use the native language. The spelling of Japanese is arbitrary, but "Kanzi" is the most linguistic/logical way to do it, no matter how you want to spin it.

 

[sprsk]

What? You need to be Chinese or Japanese to understand the meaning of Kanji now? I beg to differ.

Besides, a hell of a lot of Chinese and particularly Japanese people do not know the meaning of many individual Kanji. They learned them through context and most people who are not linguists do not care to study the meanings.

Go back to watching haruhi lol.

 

[Lelielle]

I'm self taught and for the basic characters it was rote memorization, but the language itself learned by listening and watching various Japanese shows and studying culture, knowing the culture made it a lot easier and it is fun analyzing the language after you learn a bit, the puns, and such. For Kanji I'm just trying to recognize more characters then I will move on the writing, unfortunately my speaking sucks, but thats more to do with my lack of confidence when it comes to speaking in general. I feel a sense of accomplishment being able to look at all those squiggly lines and be able to read it, or see inconsistencies/errors in fan subbing. best thing to do is make Japanese part of your everyday however you feel comfortable with it, whether it be reading kids manga or learning cooking recipes.

 

[sprsk]

how do you spell "chicken curry" in Thai?

Doesn't really matter, unless you use the native language. The spelling of Japanese is arbitrary, but "Kanzi" is the most linguistic/logical way to do it, no matter how you want to spin it.

I would like for you to explain why kanzi is the most linguistic logical way to spell kanji.

Explain to me how a Z sound is closer than a J.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

how do you spell "chicken curry" in Thai?

Doesn't really matter, unless you use the native language. The spelling of Japanese is arbitrary, but "Kanzi" is the most linguistic/logical way to do it, no matter how you want to spin it.

Well you both have a point. Kanzi is definitely acceptable from a Japanese perspective on romanization, but this is a thread primarily for students of Japanese and the primary language happens to be English. In English, the word is "k-a-n-j-i".

 

[sasimirobot]

Well you both have a point. Kanzi is definitely acceptable from a Japanese perspective on romanization, but this is a thread primarily for students of Japanese and the primary language happens to be English. In English, the word is "k-a-n-j-i".

no

 

[RevenantKioku]

no

Okay, I'll be sure to correct all my Japanese friends who I've also never seen write 'kanzi'. Now let's get back to how I'm not learning Japanese by methods that are improving my Japanese!

 

[sasimirobot]

I would like for you to explain why kanzi is the most linguistic logical way to spell kanji.

Explain to me how a Z sound is closer than a J.

it is not a "z" sound anymore than "el nino" is a "nee-no" sound. your bunch of roman letters vs. my bunch of roman letters..

let it go

 

[Deleted member 17706]

no

What the hell do you mean "no"? Are you denying that you both have a point? Are you denying that Kanzi and Kanji are both acceptable forms? Are you denying that this is primarily an English forum and this thread is primarily for students of Japanese? What the hell is wrong with you?

Hey, aren't you the guy who bragged about working for the Yakuza and overstaying your visa in a thread from a while back?

 

[sasimirobot]

What the hell do you mean "no"? Are you denying that you both have a point? Are you denying that Kanzi and Kanji are both acceptable forms? Are you denying that this is primarily an English forum and this thread is primarily for students of Japanese? What the hell is wrong with you?

Hey, aren't you the guy who bragged about working for the Yakuza and overstaying your visa in a thread from a while back?

yes