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The Black Culture Thread |OT19| - You Still Can't Say Tanned

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Izuna

Banned
I had a class once about colonial exploits in Africa/Asia once.
People in that thread probably have no context to how vast and conformist the French Imperial complex's Nationalism propaganda was. When I read about it I was amazed at how they pulled off an all for one attitude, yet kept segregation in plain sight through the social/bureaucratic hierarchy. And the fact that people want a safe space now irks them? They must have no idea.

See this, in particular, is where I have hiccups.

This implies race relations are to be solved through the generations, with grudges and knowledge of injustices passed down. It makes a lot of sense when thinking in a purely linear manner, but then that method has a double-edged sword.

If one of the side-effects, which admittedly deserves to be looked passed, is that descendants of oppressors who aren't told of past tragedies get confused why they're part of the blame... Then what is the end game?

What is the finishing point, like, ultimate plan? Is it when past tragedies are so insignificant that no one cares about them anymore?

Is it when we master education of young people so we're all on the same page? Or is it letting minorities self-segregating into safe spaces?

Because to me, that last one seems like a very short-term fix with the potential to stagnant race relations or possibly harm it for the next generation or people.

What I want is the ignorant, post-racial view I had as a child to be the actual reality.
 
Laaamb..

3888936-8412152677-qv80K.gif
 

Izuna

Banned
Because, and I say this not as an insult.

We don't know you. We don't know how you respond to certain things, said a certain way. We don't have the ability nor are we equipped to explain "Racial inequity 101" to every party. Which is why I suggested books to read (not to insult or push you away but because they are far more comprehensive and in depth than what I can tell you) and can recommend you some.

No, I understand this, it's just that reading a book isn't part of my typical schedule. Reading a GAF is something I enjoy and I look here for that information. I have read a lot fo great stuff here and I'm definitely not suggesting y'all have any obligation to explain shit to me. I figured this was the reaction I'd get.

But at the same time, I'm not lying. It's utterly bizarre to me.
 

hypernima

Banned
See this, in particular, is where I have hiccups.

This implies race relations are to be solved through the generations, with grudges and knowledge of injustices passed down. It makes a lot of sense when thinking in a purely linear manner, but then that method has a double-edged sword.

If one of the side-effects, which admittedly deserves to be looked passed, is that descendants of oppressors who aren't told of past tragedies get confused why they're part of the blame... Then what is the end game?

What is the finishing point, like, ultimate plan? Is it when past tragedies are so insignificant that no one cares about them anymore?

Is it when we master education of young people so we're all on the same page? Or is it letting minorities self-segregating into safe spaces?

Because to me, that last one seems like a very short-term fix with the potential to stagnant race relations or possibly harm it for the next generation or people.

What I want is the ignorant, post-racial view I had as a child to be the actual reality.


You should think about ditching the concept of "self-segregation"

Segregation is something that only benefits the oppressor. When a safe space is made it isn't a permanent example for someone who is being oppressed. I used to think of it in a way when I leave black dominated spaces, that I am going back into the fray, which is the societal view of me being a black man. You don't always get to stay in that space as a minority, and at best it is a temporary refuge.

But why should it be temporary? If society and humanity was perfect it would not be and we wouldn't need spaces. The world would be post-racial but it just isn't reality at this time. The end goal is equity, and oppressors understanding the past transgressions of their own people and not repeating it.
 

Sch1sm

Member
All I can assume is that France is a little better than the UK with race relations, and I think such a thing would be bizarre where I live (and possibly counter-productive).



I'm in this thread because I like learning what I don't know.

"Go read a book" or emoji replies suggest I'm baffling you so much on how wrong I am, and yet I'm going into specifics and explaining why I feel this way with the intention of reading something that will change my mind.

I can be ignorant and very stupid, but I'm not going to change my opinion because it's the popular thing to do. I'd rather wait until I understand.

Aight, bet:

A topic which was brought up in the very movie.

I laughed at the scene when it was posted on Reddit, and I thought that girl was "meant" to be ridiculous. And yet he movie follows her around as if she's the only one who has sense...

Sam isn't meant to be ridiculous, she's portrayed as someone who wants to be a revolutionary. She wants positive change for the black community, and she'll do anything for it. Her goal is to educate, and while her language can be aggressive and abrasive on her radio show, the entire purpose of her in the show is to paint how things can com across to the black community. The reason for this is as simple as quiet people aren't heard, and inaction gets us nowhere.

The movie doesn't follow her around as if she's the only one who has sense, neither does the show. In both cases, they've built her up as leader of their group, but every member, all the way down to Coco, Jo, and Reggie, share a unique narrative of the black experience and contribute something to the cause.

Essentially, would you ignore names like Kenneth Clark just because he wasn't MLK, despite his presence through the Civil Rights movement?

Don't forget that the film and show are satire, either, things are as exaggerated as a political cartoon at some point. It isn't meant to be black and white.

I keep telling myself "things are different in America". A black only festival in France doesn't compute with me.

I've been to Paris and Cannes, and you have black youth there integrating and mixing in groups of friends more than you do in the UK.

Like, where I work, in the Arndale in Manchester, I get bored and I look out for a group of young boys or girls that have a mix of races. It's been a couple months and I don't see it. "So it's not London", I think to myself. It's bizarre to me, and I don't understand why teenagers are like that here.

Things are different in America, in that racism is significantly more overt than in the Commonwealth or Europe. This has only multiplied with Donald Trump's candidacy and presidency, which has given the alt right a platform and approval from a prominent political figure.

That being said, just because you see in this one show that there's an all black housing unit, and an all black friend group, doesn't mean that this is reflective of every single road in the USA. It's entirely reflective of where you are, the demographic. You're 100% going to find mixed groups in places like New York, or Atlanta, or Miami, but don't forget that Winchester (while fictional) is portrayed as a predominantly white school.

Let's talk demographics of Black people in these countries:

France: 5 million (7.5%), total population of 66.81 million.
UK: 1.9 million (3%), total of 65.14 million.
USA: 42 million (14%), total of over 300 million.

There's a significantly larger population of Black people in the USA than others, which is why it shouldn't be so easy for you to dismiss this show as the be-all, end-all of race relations in the USA.

Don't forget that France is one homogenous as fuck place, though.

When I was a teen, I was in Kensington & Chelsea going to a private school and there was less obvious racism there.

Overt vs covert. Like you said, less obvious, but not nonexistent. The only reason it isn't as noticeable is because it isn't considered acceptable. It could also be as simple as there not being a significant amount of Black people in the UK for this to be a prevalent issue.

If Dear White People is set in an elite college, the closest anecdotes is a relatively elite sixth form. Things have to be way different in the US if that movie is based on reality.

Let's go back to the population stats, right:

France: 5 million (7.5%), total population of 66.81 million.
UK: 1.9 million (3%), total of 65.14 million.
USA: 42 million (14%), total of over 300 million.

Think about this the next time you figure something is based on reality. Populations are diverse.

Also, segregated dormitories are rather uncommon, and HBCUs don't even have the majority of college students in the USA, so.

I can accept that. The race relations are different there. I don't accept that I somehow missed all of that stuff in the UK and was oblivious to it in France.

That's just it, though. You have to accept it, because it isn't nonexistent. You aren't noticing it, or it isn't happening outwardly on a frequent enough basis to be noticed. Your experience is limited to 3 cities alone, and Paris and Cannes probably have larger black communities than your city does.
 

Izuna

Banned
You should think about ditching the concept of "self-segregation"

Segregation is something that only benefits the oppressor. When a safe space is made it isn't a permanent example for someone who is being oppressed. I used to think of it in a way when I leave black dominated spaces, that I am going back into the fray, which is the societal view of me being a black man. You don't always get to stay in that space as a minority, and at best it is a temporary refuge.

But why should it be temporary? If society and humanity was perfect it would not be and we wouldn't need spaces. The world would be post-racial but it just isn't reality at this time. The end goal is equity, and oppressors understanding the past transgressions of their own people and not repeating it.

Like, I want to know the answers. All I know is that Dear White People as a movie didn't make anyone "woke". It pushed people away from being post-racial. I don't care if that's all on white people for not understanding it (or myself for that matter), it isn't helping.

Perhaps I'm thinking too much in 2D, that racism is on a slider and certain actions either move it one way or the other. Maybe if there is a slider, anything above 0% "society is racist" is far too much...

What you describe, about outside the safe spaces being "back into the fray", that helps me understand the need for them. I feel unconvinced that it's that much of an issue here in the UK/France, but I know it isn't for me to say.
 
This is the part where we as nerds need to have an honest reckoning with the fact that black nerds are more susceptible to anti-black fuckshit. Like fr fr, that sort of menaity is why its important to carve out a space in otherwise toxic ass hobbies/communities. Cuz all skin folk ain't kinfolk.

Thank you.

I am probably not quite saying this correctly, but there are a lot of blerds that need to be saved from anti-blackness. I can remember being the only or one of the few in certain spaces (talking black /and/ woman), and the desire to be with the group and blend in is strong, even if it means not standing up for who you are (or standing up for other marginalized groups).

Thankfully, the nerd sphere is becoming more and more overtly diverse. But that means that it is even more imperative to carve out the space that you talk about.
 

hypernima

Banned
Like, I want to know the answers. All I know is that Dear White People as a movie didn't make anyone "woke". It pushed people away from being post-racial. I don't care if that's all on white people for not understanding it (or myself for that matter), it isn't helping.

Perhaps I'm thinking too much in 2D, that racism is on a slider and certain actions either move it one way or the other. Maybe if there is a slider, anything above 0% "society is racist" is far too much...

What you describe, about outside the safe spaces being "back into the fray", that helps me understand the need for them. I feel unconvinced that it's that much of an issue here in the UK/France, but I know it isn't for me to say.

Your experiences might just be different than most than personally? I can't speak for UK racism but from what I only hear from other brown/black brothers and sisters say there.

About the bolded, if you don't care that it's all on white people for not understanding it, and that it pushes people away from this post-racial thought you want for society, than i'm just gonna remind you. The post-racial society you want some day is not up to you. It's up to whiteness to change. You can't change whiteness. You're black. DWP isn't perfect but it is a decent perspective of black experiences in PWIs in America and if someone isn't roused to introspection of how they interact with PoC because of it, they probably were stuck in their ways before they even watched it.
 

Sch1sm

Member
Something about the "aight bet" lights the whole thing up for me.

Good stuff lady


---

The idea of France having good race relations when there are cities that tried to ban Muslim women from wearing burkinis, (an alternative to one or two-piece swimwear that looks similar to what a scuba diver would wear) simply because it's Muslim women who wear it, makes me laugh.

There's nothing the French want more than for their people to be exactly the same in everything, without religious or racial borders. The nationalism is strong, and even their approach to immigration is assimilationist rather than integrationist. Their education system is a testament to it.
 
The idea of France having good race relations when there are cities that tried to ban Muslim women from wearing burkinis, (an alternative to one or two-piece swimwear that looks similar to what a scuba diver would wear) simply because it's Muslim women who wear it, makes me laugh.

First thing that came to mind. But what do I know..
 

Izuna

Banned
Sam isn't meant to be ridiculous, she's portrayed as someone who wants to be a revolutionary. She wants positive change for the black community, and she'll do anything for it. Her goal is to educate, and while her language can be aggressive and abrasive on her radio show, the entire purpose of her in the show is to paint how things can com across to the black community. The reason for this is as simple as quiet people aren't heard, and inaction gets us nowhere.

The movie doesn't follow her around as if she's the only one who has sense, neither does the show. In both cases, they've built her up as leader of their group, but every member, all the way down to Coco, Jo, and Reggie, share a unique narrative of the black experience and contribute something to the cause.

Essentially, would you ignore names like Kenneth Clark just because he wasn't MLK, despite his presence through the Civil Rights movement?

I have to immediately admit I have no idea who Kenneth Clark is.

As for the movie, I thought that it was self-aware in that even though she was addressing white people in her words, it was really intended for black people to listen to and feel included within the University. The set-back to that was it brought out more racism towards black people and her invite to the party was a catalyst to expose underlying racism. Black people were hurt by the event and the racists barely felt guilty. It was a net stupid move that didn't solve anything.

I understood that much. But her telling the black Dean that black people can't be racist because [insert her definition of racism here] was bizarre to watch. I'm unsure if we're meant to think she's being ridiculous but then the rest of movie is like... saying that she isn't...

The series I haven't seen, but I felt really unhappy at the "shock" to her interracial relationship.

Things are different in America, in that racism is significantly more overt than in the Commonwealth or Europe. This has only multiplied with Donald Trump's candidacy and presidency, which has given the alt right a platform and approval from a prominent political figure.

It feels like the event (the French one) is claming that it isn't really different. I mean, if France elected Le Pan I would be less confused, but thankfully they dodged that bullet.

That being said, just because you see in this one show that there's an all black housing unit, and an all black friend group, doesn't mean that this is reflective of every single road in the USA. It's entirely reflective of where you are, the demographic. You're 100% going to find mixed groups in places like New York, or Atlanta, or Miami, but don't forget that Winchester (while fictional) is portrayed as a predominantly white school.

Let's talk demographics of Black people in these countries:

France: 5 million (7.5%), total population of 66.81 million.
UK: 1.9 million (3%), total of 65.14 million.
USA: 42 million (14%), total of over 300 million.

There's a significantly larger population of Black people in the USA than others, which is why it shouldn't be so easy for you to dismiss this show as the be-all, end-all of race relations in the USA.

Don't forget that France is one homogenous as fuck place, though.

There's two separate conversations here. What I think of the event, and what I think of Dear White People. I'm going to filter out reference to that movie because I think it'll distract from the real purpose of my post (it was an example based on the fact that I don't understand it).

Every single country is going to have areas with better race relations than others. I know this first hand by comparing London (where I grew up) with pretty much any other city. I have been to uber white non-racist areas, which may be a European thing. I am under the impression that if you went to a place 99% white in the USA it's almost certainly... shady at best.

Overt vs covert. Like you said, less obvious, but not nonexistent. The only reason it isn't as noticeable is because it isn't considered acceptable. It could also be as simple as there not being a significant amount of Black people in the UK for this to be a prevalent issue.

Where I was, couldn't be any less racist without some fake post-racial utopia. I'm not even sure why it was the case, but it was where a lot of international students fom ages 14 to 18 would come and the topic of race was never brought up, even among the worst people in the school.

Well, except the black girl and mixed raced guy who absolutely needed me to know what I was mixed with and that the Timberland logo and KFC are racist.

An aside: Prior to that, the only other time I listened to people talk about race or say racist shit was a black child-minder I had. I think I posted this years ago on GAF, about why the only racism I felt was from black people so far in my life. (she was super fucked up, she claimed white people don't take as many showers and all of my laziness was from my "white" blood).

It's important to note for no other reason than for me to say why I appear adverse to safe spaces. I don't know how the fuck those couple of people came to be that way but that's what I mean by self-segregation. I'm probably grouping it all up, but that lady absolutely refused to be around white people.

Also, segregated dormitories are rather uncommon, and HBCUs don't even have the majority of college students in the USA, so.

I don't think they should exist at all. If there's a problem with some students in that they need to segregate it as a cure, then the problem students should be expelled.

That's just it, though. You have to accept it, because it isn't nonexistent. You aren't noticing it, or it isn't happening outwardly on a frequent enough basis to be noticed. Your experience is limited to 3 cities alone, and Paris and Cannes probably have larger black communities than your city does.

Not to sound argumentative, but as much as I'm unaware of the situation in France as a local, you'd also be.
 

Imm0rt4l

Member
Thank you.

I am probably not quite saying this correctly, but there are a lot of blerds that need to be saved from anti-blackness. I can remember being the only or one of the few in certain spaces (talking black /and/ woman), and the desire to be with the group and blend in is strong, even if it means not standing up for who you are (or standing up for other marginalized groups).

Thankfully, the nerd sphere is becoming more and more overtly diverse. But that means that it is even more imperative to carve out the space that you talk about.
Right, also blerds are carving out their own spaces to escape anti-blackness, even if only for a bit.


http://www.afropunk.com/m/blogpost?id=2059274:BlogPost:1463144

Also this is a thing.
 

Izuna

Banned
Hmm, I think I am aware of this anti-black nerd you speak of.

Is it when a nigga hates [oops] rap, wishes they weren't associated with other black people AT ALL, and would avoid a black woman like she has swine flu?

Oh, and they love anime?
 

Zekes!

Member
---

The idea of France having good race relations when there are cities that tried to ban Muslim women from wearing burkinis, (an alternative to one or two-piece swimwear that looks similar to what a scuba diver would wear) simply because it's Muslim women who wear it, makes me laugh.

There's nothing the French want more than for their people to be exactly the same in everything, without religious or racial borders. The nationalism is strong, and even their approach to immigration is assimilationist rather than integrationist. Their education system is a testament to it.

I've only skimmed this conversation but this was my thought as well. I feel like I always hear some shit about France and Muslims
 

Izuna

Banned
Your experiences might just be different than most than personally? I can't speak for UK racism but from what I only hear from other brown/black brothers and sisters say there.

About the bolded, if you don't care that it's all on white people for not understanding it, and that it pushes people away from this post-racial thought you want for society, than i'm just gonna remind you. The post-racial society you want some day is not up to you. It's up to whiteness to change. You can't change whiteness. You're black. DWP isn't perfect but it is a decent perspective of black experiences in PWIs in America and if someone isn't roused to introspection of how they interact with PoC because of it, they probably were stuck in their ways before they even watched it.

My experience is different because when people see me, they don't see black. I get to hear racist shit about black people because of this. My hair isn't curly enough and my eyes are too slant that they'll see a different race. I shit you not, school principles on multiple occasions see me as Japanese (I don't understand?) before they see black.

edit: my boss thinks I'm half Japanese and I don't have to heart to correct him for the 3rd time. No, my partner is/was, I'm all these other things... Where do I look Japanese?

Also, one time I stop stopped outside the posh school, I just said I'm a student and they walked away and apologised.

My mixed raced friend definitely didn't get that treatment, got searched, and they tried hard as fuck to match him to a description. But then they found his weed so, maybe they're just psychic ;P

~~

But as for it being on white people -- I'm not, and I say this unironically, a fighter for social justice because it isn't what I do. Props to those who do and shame on me -- but I feel like Obama has tried his best to explain that the communication needs to be respectful otherwise people will just flip the anger back and side with awful shit just because they don't want to agree.
 
Does anyone else have a negative reaction to the word 'Colored'?

I am currently using the word for an art book (adult coloring book) title but I keep seeing the other meaning in my head.
 

Imm0rt4l

Member
What does it say about us that even in our space we have to explain to black ppl that anti-blackness is detrimental to us, that respectability will NEVER save us. It's a testament to just how far reaching the tendrils of white supremacy is when some of us would privilege the feelings of racist white people over our own liberatory aspirations. Like niggas really out here adhering to whitewashed definitions of racism/segregation. That shit is so fucking insulting to all those that came before us. Props to y'all that are willing to expend the emotional labor, cuz a nigga muhfuckin tide.
 

LotusHD

Banned
Does anyone else have a negative reaction to the word 'Colored'?

I am currently using the word for an art book (adult coloring book) title but I keep seeing the other meaning in my head.

I do. Like Unemployed said, it's just antiquated as fuck, just say people of color instead.

I also dislike when I see people refer to black people as "Blacks" or "The blacks". Even moreso since it reminds me of Trump.
 

Shy

Member
Youngbloods these days. SMDH.
Afternoon BCT
Mornin' everyone.
Sup, y'all..
Hi all! .
Afternoon ladies, gents and horses.
Evening evening.
I live in UK,so many POC are in poor ass areas. You only have to look at London,90% of POC are on the poor outskirts. I am lucky to have a fam that gets decent wages,so don't have to put up with that shit. Hardly any brothers around where I live tho.
IF you don't mind me asking, what about in the UK are you at ?
I LOVE Chris Evans

ZwZbFme.png
gfEicSG.gif

Does anyone else have a negative reaction to the word 'Colored'?

I am currently using the word for an art book (adult coloring book) title but I keep seeing the other meaning in my head.
It's an old slur that people that think they're not being racist use.

Don't use it.
 

Sch1sm

Member
Honestly, Izuna, until you tell us what your definition of racism is, we can't have any constructive conversation with you on the topic of it. I've read your post, I've tried responding to it, but I'm not even sure how to navigate a conversation about racism when it seems that we're operating on two separate definitions.


I'll tell you who Kenneth Clark is, though:

a psychologist who's studies (with his wife, Mamie) helped in the case of Brown v Board of Education. While their names aren't known by everyone, they played a massive role in racial segregation in schools being ended, and were active in the Civil Rights Movement.

The rest of your post is just going to be met with disconnects if we argue it. I'm tapping out.
 

Izuna

Banned
Yeah I see so some people will like it and some will not like it.

:( crap I'm torn

Like, part of my opinion might be because of who I thought originally shared the cover.

I thought it was completely intended on being a pun in some uplifting way, so I'm probably waaaaay off base here.
 

Slayven

Member
"Pushed people away from being Post Racial"

I haven't laughed hard enough in a while. No such thing as Post Racial, and anyone taking it serious is not worth talking too.
 

hypernima

Banned
What does it say about us that even in our space we have to explain to black that anti-blackness is detrimental to us, that respectability will NEVER save us. It's a testament to just how far reaching the tendrils of white supremacy is when some of us would privilege the feelings of racist white people over our own liberatory aspirations. Like niggas really out here adhering to whitewashed definitions of racism/segregation. That shit is so fucking insulting to all those that came before us. Props to y'all that are willing to expend the emotional labor, cuz a nigga muhfuckin tide.

I don't do it much these days.
 
Well I am only using titles I cannot find easily using google so I'll follow the advise here and not used colored for the coloring book series.

Time to look for something else
 

Sch1sm

Member
What does it say about us that even in our space we have to explain to black that anti-blackness is detrimental to us, that respectability will NEVER save us. It's a testament to just how far reaching the tendrils of white supremacy is when some of us would privilege the feelings of racist white people over our own liberatory aspirations. Like niggas really out here adhering to whitewashed definitions of racism/segregation. That shit is so fucking insulting to all those that came before us. Props to y'all that are willing to expend the emotional labor, cuz a nigga muhfuckin tide.

Honestly, I was telling G just earlier. My head's spinning from the gymnastics I gotta do to understand this stuff. I'm gonna take a break, go play some games or something.

People can find me on Discord or PMs if anything. Have good days.
 
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