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[Whimsical Phil]

Believe me, if US anime distributors could afford to put out season sets, they would. But they can't because of licensing fees and reluctant Japanese anime outfits. Hopefully the next few years will see a gradual evolution in anime prices, though -- it'll cause a shakeup in the marketplace, but ultimately it'll be better for anime.

You seem to know a lot about this issue, Mr. Fennec. Do you have some sort of inside scoop or something?

 

[Ponn]

What? You're saying that U.S. TV shows on DVD are the exact same as anime shows on DVD? Do you really think that there are as many people in this country interested in buying DVDs of Inuyasha or Urusei Yatsura as there are people wanting to buy Family Guy and Friends? Are you aware of how exceptionally popular TV shows on DVD is nowadays? Anime's popular, but it ain't THAT popular.

Even the most popular anime series is only going to sell a fraction of the Family Guy DVDs. Anime companies need to offset the costs somewhere, so (for now) the consumer has to eat that cost. It sucks for us, but until Ranma starts selling as many DVDs as Futurama, we're gonna have to pay more. In a few years, if anime starts reaching a more mainstream audience, THEN we can say they're the exact same as U.S. TV shows on DVD. Right now, however, "normal" TV shows are huge, anime is niche.

And what anime DVDs are you seeing with only two episodes per disc? I know this was a big problem back in the early days of anime on VHS, but I haven't noticed it being a problem nowadays. Granted, I'm not a huge anime collector, but the few series that I do buy (Full Metal Alchemist, Lupin, Urusei Yatsura, Ranma, etc.) all tend to have 4-6 episodes per disc. That's not a bad deal for $20 (where are you buying DVDs for $30? Shop around, man).

The double dipping Evangelion platinum discs, Inu yasha, Rahxephon, they are out there with only 2 or 3 episodes at 20 - 30 bucks a pop. The point is they are the same as TV series, I never said they were as popular. We are not in Japan, we are in America and Americans do not like to pay that much money for their TV shows, which essentially is what Anime series are. Do you think Seinfeld or Family guy would have sold as well if there was only 2 to 3 episodes per disc at 20 bucks a piece? Hell no. The same goes for anime series, and especially the longer ones like Inu-Yasha and Naruto. I have several friends who love Inu-yasha and got the bootleg season dvds. They all wanted the official ones but it came down to price and the thought of having to spend that much and buy that many dvds since its a long ass series.

The same thing will go for Naruto. If you market your product better it will sell. To blame fansubs for all your sale problems is stupid. Anime fans are still pretty hardcore and love buying merchandise but to ask 150 bucks for 24 or so episodes of something is ridiculous and only Star Trek fans would be willing to spend that. (yea that was a jab at the Star Trek TNG dvd sets). The problem is they are assuming their audience and market is a very small niche market and are trying to get the most profit out of their items which of course is a turn off to alot of people. They haven't even given season sets a chance, the last one I saw was Big-O and from what I saw they were popular. I bought them up because I missed some episodes and wanted to see them all since Adult Swim stopped showing them.

 

[Shouta]

You seem to know a lot about this issue, Mr. Fennec. Do you have some sort of inside scoop or something?

He has a lot of friends in the industry just as I do. He's also working more in the industry nowadays than he used to.

I've talked with Shouta in person about this, and I respect his opinion, but saying it's a non-factor ignores facts and torrent stats.

I didn't say it was non-factor but that they're trying to lay the blame all on fansubs for waning sales. That simply isn't true. If fansubs were really eating into DVD sales, the market growth would've been mucher slower up until this point. However, the market's growth has been rapid the last 3-4 years. The domestic companies were so giddy that they became overzealous with their licensing and release schedules and were putting out more material than the market could handle and that's been eating away at potential sales. You also have to remember fansubbers =/= pirate groups. Fansubbers are groups that do material that isn't licensed in the domestic industry but stop when it is while pirate groups continue doing it or rip domestic releases.

WTF i bought Last Exile for 60€ in France. Distributors just buy the rights, they don't produce the anime, they don't need as much revenue as a Japanese studio to be profitable.

Regional distributors have to buy the rights to the series, then author the DVD, produce the dubs, produce the subs, print the discs, market it, and a number of other things. They do a LOT of work to produce the discs, they don't just buy it and release it.

 

[Excelion]

then explain me why i can buy anime dvds cheaper and sooner in france - a smaller market with high VAT- with pretty much every distributors turning a profit. Sure, it's rare to have dubs (exept when the series is planned to be aired on tv) but they're releasing what anime fans want, that's why it sells well.

Is it the same for manga releases ? i bought Nana vol 1-11+fanbook for 60€ yesterday

 

[Shouta]

That's 60 Euros right? Did you get the entire LE series?

 

[Whimsical Phil]

The double dipping Evangelion platinum discs, Inu yasha, Rahxephon, they are out there with only 2 or 3 episodes at 20 - 30 bucks a pop. The point is they are the same as TV series, I never said they were as popular. We are not in Japan, we are in America and Americans do not like to pay that much money for their TV shows, which essentially is what Anime series are. Do you think Seinfeld or Family guy would have sold as well if there was only 2 to 3 episodes per disc at 20 bucks a piece? Hell no. The same goes for anime series, and especially the longer ones like Inu-Yasha and Naruto. I have several friends who love Inu-yasha and got the bootleg season dvds. They all wanted the official ones but it came down to price and the thought of having to spend that much and buy that many dvds since its a long ass series.

The same thing will go for Naruto. If you market your product better it will sell. To blame fansubs for all your sale problems is stupid. Anime fans are still pretty hardcore and love buying merchandise but to ask 150 bucks for 24 or so episodes of something is ridiculous and only Star Trek fans would be willing to spend that. (yea that was a jab at the Star Trek TNG dvd sets). The problem is they are assuming their audience and market is a very small niche market and are trying to get the most profit out of their items which of course is a turn off to alot of people. They haven't even given season sets a chance, the last one I saw was Big-O and from what I saw they were popular. I bought them up because I missed some episodes and wanted to see them all since Adult Swim stopped showing them.

Ah, yes...I forgot about Inuyasha. I have been skipping out on buying that show because of the episode per disc ratio. I did, however, buy the first season box set, which is far more reasonably priced for what you get.

And just because both anime show and U.S. shows are both TV shows, it's not that simple to compare them. Aetlier Iris and GTA: San Andreas are both PS2 games -- should we expect the same sales performance from both of them? Granted, this comparison is somewhat flawed since they are roughly the same price, but I'd bet that GTA drops in price long before Aetlier does.

Anime companies aren't assuming their audience is niche...it just is. If you really think that ANY anime series will sell Family Guy or Seinfeld numbers, regardless of the price, you're being very naive.

We're having a circular discussion here. I'm saying that anime DVD prices will go down when people start buying more, and you're saying that people will start buying more when prices go down. And sadly, that's not just us talking...it's the state of the market as a whole.

One of the two parties (companies or consumers) is going to have to break to end the circle. It's very unlikely that the companies will break, since they definitely need to make money. Those DVD box sets are priced high to offset the cost of licensing the show, translating it, dubbing it, manufacturing it, AND having to deal with the fact that it's not gonna sell nearly as well as any random U.S. TV series (be aware that U.S. shows need not worry about licensing, translating, and dubbing...and they also continue to earn money in syndication). If the anime companies lower their prices, their sets may sell slightly better, but not nearly enough to turn much of a profit (if any). No profits = companies stop releasing shows altogether.

So if the companies won't/can't lower prices, it's up to the consumer to bite the bullet and use their wallets to support their favorite shows. Yes, it sucks, and yes, it can be a strain if you're into a few series, but it's the only way to help generate more money for the industry and eventually lower prices.

You can go back to the videogame industry for this. Games used to be a niche market and thus very expensive ($60-$70). People continued to buy the games (there was no internet to download ROMs from back then), the market grew out of niche status, and game prices fell. If people support anime on DVD, the same will happen in time.

It sounds to me like you're really just trying to rationalize your downloading of anime series. The "I'd buy it if it wasn't so expensive" excuse for stealing copyrighted material is a very common rationalization, and not a terribly effective one. I think cars are too expensive, but that doesn't give me the right to steal one.

But please don't think that I'm attacking you. I'm not. I personally don't care how many series you have on your hard drive. Heck, some of my best friends have more downloaded shows than they could watch in a lifetime...doesn't bother me in the least. Just don't assume that anime companies can radically drop the price of their box sets and they'll magically begin selling as much as something like Seinfeld. John Q. Public doesn't like anime as much as we do.

 

[Whimsical Phil]

You seem to know a lot about this issue, Mr. Fennec. Do you have some sort of inside scoop or something?

He has a lot of friends in the industry just as I do. He's also working more in the industry nowadays than he used to.

I'm actually buddies with Fennec, so yeah, I know. This was kind of a personal shout out to him and his new-ish job.

 

[Shig]

So if the companies won't/can't lower prices, it's up to the consumer to bite the bullet and use their wallets to support their favorite shows. Yes, it sucks, and yes, it can be a strain if you're into a few series, but it's the only way to help generate more money for the industry and eventually lower prices.

I don't really think that would be the outcome. If anything increased sales at current prices would send the message that the current prices are acceptable.

 

[slayn]

If it weren't for fansubs, you wouldn't care about that. But now you do, and as a result you aren't going to buy the DVDs. That is why fansubs hurt anime.

if not for fansubs, he prolly wouldn't even know what naruto is, and still not buy the dvd's

 

[G4life98]

If it weren't for fansubs, you wouldn't care about that. But now you do, and as a result you aren't going to buy the DVDs. That is why fansubs hurt anime.

well if it wasnt for fansubs and their respective fanbases anime in america would still be in the dark ages.

 

[Whimsical Phil]

http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/06/30/184207&tid=168

I see no reason to buy a lot of anime. Most anime is crap, like any other medium. I will only buy anime that is in my top 10 or something I seriously seriously enjoyed but it's not (such as Miyazaki movies, Last Exile, stuff like that).

This is definitely true. But dang it, I loves me some Lupin. And some Urusei Yatsura. And some Full Metal Alchemist.

 

[Whimsical Phil]

if not for fansubs, he prolly wouldn't even know what naruto is, and still not buy the dvd's

I never watched any fansubs, and I know what Naruto is.

I first saw it in Shonen Jump. He'd see it in there or in the graphic novels or when it begins airing on TV. From there he may or may not buy the DVDs. He'd just know about it later than he would with fansubs.

well if it wasnt for fansubs and their respective fanbases anime in america would still be in the dark ages.

I don't know if this necessarily true. Fansubs have existed for ages via 20th generation bootleg VHS tapes that were traded at conventions and college campuses everywhere, and they didn't make the genre as mainstream as it is today.

Now, granted, these ancient fansubs may have helped kickstart the rise in popularity of anime in the U.S. After all, when those first couple of companies began releasing shows on VHS, the hardcore fans were eager to pay $30 for two episodes of a show because the quailty of this licensed product was INFINITELY better than the crappy videos that were passed around. As the hardcore fanbase grew, word began to spread and slowly, over the course of a few years, anime became more popular and more and more companies began licensing shows and releasing them over here. Now, Waldenbooks has a huge manga section and Suncoast has essentially turned into your mall's anime/manga/soundtrack/plushie/Pocky headquarters.

The problem now is, thanks to digital technology and the internet, it's much easier to mass distribute bootlegs that are of equal quality to what you would buy in the store. There's no incentive to purchase the legitimate product unless you're a stickler for packaging.

As I've mentioned before, I really have no huge beef with the fansubbers. I don't watch them personally, but then, I'm not nearly as into anime as I was back in the days of VHS. But I can certainly see the corporate point of view (which isn't necessarily the "we're evil; let's rip off the consumer" point of view) and why they would be scared of fansubs hurting/potentially killing their business.

From what I've heard over the years, most arguments for fansubs seem to be shortsighted, self serving, and rationalizations for why someone would rather download a series that's readily (and legally) available in stores.

 

[Whimsical Phil]

I plan on buying the FMA dvds. It's around number 3 or even 2 on my list. That and Gankutsuou, wow, what an amazing series.

This is one of the reasons we need a *real* anime channel. Not just a bunch of adv shit, but I think it would be cool if the distributors air their series on an anime channel and then after it's run release it on dvd. That way, I won't have to always watch fansubs, and having already seen it, I can determine if I want to buy it or not. They need to cross multiple genres and distributors as well, adult swim and the current anime network arent' cutting it. Before they blame the fansubbers they need to grab ahold of the situation and work together so we can have more anime on tv, thus, less fansubbing, and possibly more sales because more advertising. This is what I think. ADV and the other distributors need to make a joint project. But I doubt they would do this.

Yeah, a real anime network would be fantastic. Unfortunately, given the relatively low ratings that anime has been getting on Adult Swim, I can't imagine it happening soon. But seeing anime treated like a "real" TV show would be the ideal situation.

If you can, try to track down the first volume of FMA in the collector's tin. It's darn nice looking.

And hey, not ALL of ADV's stuff is shit. There's always Azumanga Daioh. Any other garbage they shovel on us is forgiven because I now own that sweet, sweet Azumanga.

 

[Ponn]

Ah, yes...I forgot about Inuyasha. I have been skipping out on buying that show because of the episode per disc ratio. I did, however, buy the first season box set, which is far more reasonably priced for what you get.

And just because both anime show and U.S. shows are both TV shows, it's not that simple to compare them. Aetlier Iris and GTA: San Andreas are both PS2 games -- should we expect the same sales performance from both of them? Granted, this comparison is somewhat flawed since they are roughly the same price, but I'd bet that GTA drops in price long before Aetlier does.

Anime companies aren't assuming their audience is niche...it just is. If you really think that ANY anime series will sell Family Guy or Seinfeld numbers, regardless of the price, you're being very naive.

We're having a circular discussion here. I'm saying that anime DVD prices will go down when people start buying more, and you're saying that people will start buying more when prices go down. And sadly, that's not just us talking...it's the state of the market as a whole.

One of the two parties (companies or consumers) is going to have to break to end the circle. It's very unlikely that the companies will break, since they definitely need to make money. Those DVD box sets are priced high to offset the cost of licensing the show, translating it, dubbing it, manufacturing it, AND having to deal with the fact that it's not gonna sell nearly as well as any random U.S. TV series (be aware that U.S. shows need not worry about licensing, translating, and dubbing...and they also continue to earn money in syndication). If the anime companies lower their prices, their sets may sell slightly better, but not nearly enough to turn much of a profit (if any). No profits = companies stop releasing shows altogether.

So if the companies won't/can't lower prices, it's up to the consumer to bite the bullet and use their wallets to support their favorite shows. Yes, it sucks, and yes, it can be a strain if you're into a few series, but it's the only way to help generate more money for the industry and eventually lower prices.

You can go back to the videogame industry for this. Games used to be a niche market and thus very expensive ($60-$70). People continued to buy the games (there was no internet to download ROMs from back then), the market grew out of niche status, and game prices fell. If people support anime on DVD, the same will happen in time.

It sounds to me like you're really just trying to rationalize your downloading of anime series. The "I'd buy it if it wasn't so expensive" excuse for stealing copyrighted material is a very common rationalization, and not a terribly effective one. I think cars are too expensive, but that doesn't give me the right to steal one.

But please don't think that I'm attacking you. I'm not. I personally don't care how many series you have on your hard drive. Heck, some of my best friends have more downloaded shows than they could watch in a lifetime...doesn't bother me in the least. Just don't assume that anime companies can radically drop the price of their box sets and they'll magically begin selling as much as something like Seinfeld. John Q. Public doesn't like anime as much as we do.

You're comparison does not make sense at all. When Nintendo had no competition they sold games at 60 - 70 bucks a pop because they could. When they got competition their prices lowered. I really can't see how you are coming to if people buy more anime then prices will go down, I don't see how that can effect the industry in any way except tell them that their current prices are ok. And you haven't shown anything to back up that statement whatsoever. I think everyone can agree from a consumer standpoint a season box set of an anime series priced reasonable will be alot more attractive then individual discs at their current price/episode ratio. You can also be assured more sales, more penetration of the market (box sets that are reasonably priced look better on retail shelves) and more readily available too people more willing to take a chance on a series at that point if they can watch them all. If you really like video game comparisons though try the Neo Geo, way overpriced system and games because they thought it was a niche market, but by keeping it that way and never lowering prices or meeting what the consumer wanted they doomed themselves to that niche market.

That's a tanget debate anyways, my original point was pointing the fingers at fansubbers as the cause of low DVD sales. And i'm not trying to rationalize what I watch or download anyways, comparing pirating music too watching fansubs is like apples and oranges. As Shouta said the majority of fansubs are unlicensed series not available in the U.S. When it gets licensed the majority of fansubbers stop, its that simple. I am not taking any money from anyones pocket since none of this is available to me too begin with. And as I stated before I have bought anime I had watched before when it does come out here if I liked it enough. And I have been introduced to anime I may have never seen, Yakitate is a great example. Anime fans are a hardcore group that love their dvds and love buying merchandise but they are just as disconcerting shoppers as everyone else and they know when they are getting screwed on pricing like anyone else. We will see how this all unfolds though come september. I can guarantee Naruto will be a huge showing of the direction that anime is going to take in the States when it premieres. If they continue with no season box sets for Naruto then it will hurt, especially with is still showing on Toonami at the time. If they sell it in a first season boxset at 70 buck or less they will fly off the shelves and you will see the rest of the companies following suit. I'm sure there is some DBZ fans that would love to see that happen.

 

[The Take Out Bandit]

This entire argument is elitist and refuses to see that despite the decrease in anime cost/episode over the past decade...

Elitist?

How anybody can construe that as elitist is beyond me, but the fact of the matter remains; you're a whiny fucking moron.

Anime today is cheaper than it was when I was buying it, and making less money at my job!

If you can't afford to buy anime, find another hobby, or shut the hell up with the petty rationalization of your thievery. You damned milk babies need to grow up. Things cost money and you'll realize this when you are kicked out of the nest and forced to live here in the real world. Buying trivial things like video games or anime is a priveledge, not a god given right. Quit yer bitching!

Fansubbers are groups that do material that isn't licensed in the domestic industry but stop when it is while pirate groups continue doing it or rip domestic releases.

That's a razor blade balancing act Shouta. There are too many fansubbing groups that put out unlicensed stuff that I love, and greatly appreciate them doing; who insist on stepping on the toes of Big Business by providing even more anal retentive fan translated versions of commercial releases.

The problem is fansubbers have too much god damned pride and that's what interferes with their original intent. "Well I can do a better translation of G Gundam than Pioneer!" That's not your fucking job! Get to fansubbing some screwball shit that we've never heard of!

The problem now is, thanks to digital technology and the internet, it's much easier to mass distribute bootlegs that are of equal quality to what you would buy in the store. There's no incentive to purchase the legitimate product unless you're a stickler for packaging.

Bingo!

Bittorrent has made acquiring and distributing fansubs and commercial anime a snap. Which is great for fansubs, and fuckin' awful for commercial companies.

Sort of how the MPAA didn't notice folks trading MP3's over IRC or Usenet, because it took some work and some technical know-how; but along comes Napster and the milk babies / yuppies and then the Witch Hunts begin.

Bittorrent has made it entirely too easy for these milk babies to gain their absurd sense of entitlement to these products. If you had to put up with the shit old school anime fans had to put up with to acquire fansubs, you'd have a great frame of reference.

Acquiring new episodes of your beloved super robot show would require some hobo style back alley blowjobs and groveling to get your mitts on one or two, shit quality, episodes. It was a tremendous pain in the ass.

I thank Bram Cohen for Bittorrent. He's made getting hot and fresh episodes of Gaogaigar a snap!

Stop stealing, or stop squealing!

So far as a potential market collapse goes, I'm not too concerned with it. The anime DVD section of Best Buy is never flooded with old crap, so they appear to have their ordering / stock system down pat. The problem could arise for places like SunMSRPcoast where they are charging MSRP, or slightly above, and product isn't moving.

Y'know - aside from Best Buy, I can't think of a brick and mortar "Big Box" store that carries much anime. I'm completely ignoring shit holes like SunMSRPcoast and your local Comic Shop since they're the ones traditionally raping you.

 

[Hitokage]

Y'know - aside from Best Buy, I can't think of a brick and mortar "Big Box" store that carries much anime. I'm completely ignoring shit holes like SunMSRPcoast and your local Comic Shop since they're the ones traditionally raping you.

Media Play, and they like to charge MSRP too.

 

[SonicMegaDrive]

Believe it or not, my local GAMESTOP is a good place to buy anime. Everything in there is 50% off, as long as its NEW.

True, their selection isn't as good as Suncoast or Sam Goody, but it ain't too shabby, 'specially at that price.

 

[Hitokage]

Himuro: Don't tell him that there are millions getting anime for free on this pirating network they call "TV", and this new program called "DVR" that makes it easy.

 

[bjork]

New cheap domestic boxsets:

L/R (4 disc) = $79
Infinite Ryvius (6-disc) = $59
Silent Mobius = $29
Sadamitsu = $29

We got all of these in today. So it's not really a deal for anything new, but older stuff is coming down in price.

 

[SonicMegaDrive]

Yeah, I know Central Park Media is about to slash the hell out of a lot of their catalog.

What's with that rumor about CPM going out of business? Any truth to that?

 

[bjork]

I heard about CPM blowing shit out too, but I dunno about them going out of business. Though, the last time this happened was when Raijin was trying to sell off a ton of manga, then they were gone.

L/R is Licensed by Royalty. I've never watched it, but the boxart is cool.

We also got in One Piece beach towels and new Naruto plushies... lots of good stuff today.

 

[The Take Out Bandit]

Don't tell him that there are millions getting anime for free on this pirating network they call "TV", and this new program called "DVR" that makes it easy.

For most of the stuff GAFots watch, it's Cable Television - which last I checked, still required money, and DVR - money again.

But that's smoke and mirrors Hito. The problem with Bittorrent, or widespread / popular file sharing applications, is that it permits immediate access to stuff (movies, anime, music) as soon as it's available or prior to release.

Shit - you want to stretch further, you can always cite those folks using a modern invention called the Library and the casette deck. Personally I prefer the Library and iTunes on my Powerbook.

One of my pet conspiracy theories about America's shit broadband services (availability, pricing, transfer speeds) relates directly to big business's opposition to "file sharing".

I know, I've incurred your wrath for trashing ZOE2. :lol

 

[Shouta]

That's a razor blade balancing act Shouta. There are too many fansubbing groups that put out unlicensed stuff that I love, and greatly appreciate them doing; who insist on stepping on the toes of Big Business by providing even more anal retentive fan translated versions of commercial releases.

We call them asshats.

 

[Whimsical Phil]

You're comparison does not make sense at all. When Nintendo had no competition they sold games at 60 - 70 bucks a pop because they could. When they got competition their prices lowered. I really can't see how you are coming to if people buy more anime then prices will go down, I don't see how that can effect the industry in any way except tell them that their current prices are ok. And you haven't shown anything to back up that statement whatsoever. I think everyone can agree from a consumer standpoint a season box set of an anime series priced reasonable will be alot more attractive then individual discs at their current price/episode ratio. You can also be assured more sales, more penetration of the market (box sets that are reasonably priced look better on retail shelves) and more readily available too people more willing to take a chance on a series at that point if they can watch them all. If you really like video game comparisons though try the Neo Geo, way overpriced system and games because they thought it was a niche market, but by keeping it that way and never lowering prices or meeting what the consumer wanted they doomed themselves to that niche market.

No competition? Nintendo had TONS of competition. This was the days of 16-bit. Sega was a VERY big threat to Nintendo. The fierce competition between those two companies (and to a lesser extent, NEC) didn't keep game prices down. The example I cited was earlier was Thunderforce III (Genesis), which cost $70. Final Fantasy III (SNES), if I remember correctly, was $80. Phantasy Star IV (Genesis) was $90!

Of course, those games (shooters and RPGs) are from niche genres (and RPGs were FAR more niche back then). They cost more than your standard 16-bit platformer to offset the reality that they weren't going to sell as many copies as Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (which "only" ran between $50-$60, if I recall).

You don't see how more people buying something can cause prices to fall? I'll try to explain:

Let's say you have two companies, Company A and Company B, each with a product to sell. These products cost $5 to for the companies to make. Let's also assume for the sake of this example that each company wants to make a profit of $100 dollars by selling their product.

Company A has a product (we'll call it Product A) that EVERYONE wants. Lots of mass market appeal. It knows that it will sell a ton of Product A. So they set Product A's retail price at $7. Since it costs them $5 to create Product A, they're not seeing much of a profit for each one sold...only $2. However, once Product A is on store shelves, they instantly sell 50 of them. With $2 profit each, they've already hit their $100 goal.

Company B has a product (Product B, natch) that is a niche product. There's a small group of people dying for it, but the bulk of the population doesn't even know it exists. Company B has done studies and they're aware of their market's small size. In fact, they estimate that they'll only sell about 10 of their products. So in order for them to make the same profit as Company A, they must price their product at $15. That gives them a $10 profit on the 10 copies that they sell (there's the $100 profit).

Now, Company B doesn't necessarily WANT to price its product $8 more than Company A, but it HAS to in order to make the necessary profit. Company A's market research has concluded that it will only sell 10 of its product, so the company does what it has to do in order to reach it's goal.

Over time, though, Company B's product may become more popular. The 10 people who bought Product B love it and begin telling others to buy it. With sales of Product B increasing, Company B has two choices--keep the price high and continue making a large profit or steadily lower the price to benefit the consumer.

Keeping the price the same may seem like a smart, short term approach for the company. They'll make a lot of money quickly. HOWEVER, by steadily lowering the price, Company B has a stronger potential to lure in even more consumers, who would like to try Product B (they've heard such good things about it, after all), but have been reluctant to because of the high cost.

Lowering the price is better for Company B in the long term since they will continue to draw in more customers while still making the same profit that they were initially. They can then continue making this same profit for years upon years.

Keeping the price the same will earn them lots of money at first, but that pool will soon dry up as they eventually run out of consumers willing to pay that high cost. After a few months, people stop buying and the money stops rolling in.

So a couple months profit versus years of steady profit. Even if the couple of months are more profitable, in the long run, the slow and steady profit wins this race. Does that mean that companies will always choice that path? Of course not. But it's the smart one. Consumer confidence is a valuable thing.

But as for fansubbers, I really have nothing against them, so again, don't feel as those I'm attacking you. Back when I was really into anime, I had plenty of bootleg VHS tapes. And yes, there's definitely "good" fansubbers and fansub fans out there (you sound like one of them) who stop once a show gets licenses. Still, there are still the "bad" fansubbers out there who don't follow those upspoken rules, and I can't blame anime companies for citing them as a reason for poor DVD sales.

Then, there's the reality that a percentage of people who have downloaded a series before it was licensed won't bother the purchase the legitimate series when it does get a U.S. release. "I downloaded this series a year ago. Why should I pay money for something that I've been watching for free for months?" That may not be you, but it's more than a few fansub watchers.

Of course, those two fansubber types aren't the only reasons for low DVD sales, but they ARE reasons. Completely writing them off because you happen to be one (albiet the "good" one) counts as rationalization.

Wow, I'm going off on plenty of anime rants today. You'd think I was a bigger fan of the stuff than I am.

 

[.hacked]

Sadamitsu kicks ass

 

[Whimsical Phil]

Goddamn dude! D:

And for the record, Sonic 2 cost 50 bucks. I remember the day my grandma bought that for me.

Sometimes you gotta spell it out for people.

And thanks for the Sonic 2 price. I was certainly there on Sonic Tuesday, but I guess I was too excited about the debut of Miles "Tails" Prower to pay attention to how much money I was giving the dude at Babbage's.

 

[The Take Out Bandit]

I was too excited about the debut of Miles "Tails" Prower to pay attention to how much money I was giving the dude at Babbage's.

And thus began the gradual, and inevitable decline in the greatness of Sega's one and only mascot.

Sonic should have remained Sonic's game, and not become a retardulous parade of freaks for furry fetishists.

Closest Nintendo came to that sort of series ruining bullshit was Super Mario 2, but that game rocked. I can't say any of the fuck clowns Sonic Team added to Sonic has supplemented the game in any way. :/

 

[The Take Out Bandit]

There was a Sonic anime!

Unfortunately, or fortunately, it isn't on ADV's Randy Quaid Crashing His Plane into Spaceships Day sale.

 

[Zaptruder]

Elitist?

How anybody can construe that as elitist is beyond me, but the fact of the matter remains; you're a whiny fucking moron.

Anime today is cheaper than it was when I was buying it, and making less money at my job!

If you can't afford to buy anime, find another hobby, or shut the hell up with the petty rationalization of your thievery. You damned milk babies need to grow up. Things cost money and you'll realize this when you are kicked out of the nest and forced to live here in the real world. Buying trivial things like video games or anime is a priveledge, not a god given right. Quit yer bitching!



That's a razor blade balancing act Shouta. There are too many fansubbing groups that put out unlicensed stuff that I love, and greatly appreciate them doing; who insist on stepping on the toes of Big Business by providing even more anal retentive fan translated versions of commercial releases.

The problem is fansubbers have too much god damned pride and that's what interferes with their original intent. "Well I can do a better translation of G Gundam than Pioneer!" That's not your fucking job! Get to fansubbing some screwball shit that we've never heard of!



Bingo!

Bittorrent has made acquiring and distributing fansubs and commercial anime a snap. Which is great for fansubs, and fuckin' awful for commercial companies.

Sort of how the MPAA didn't notice folks trading MP3's over IRC or Usenet, because it took some work and some technical know-how; but along comes Napster and the milk babies / yuppies and then the Witch Hunts begin.

Bittorrent has made it entirely too easy for these milk babies to gain their absurd sense of entitlement to these products. If you had to put up with the shit old school anime fans had to put up with to acquire fansubs, you'd have a great frame of reference.

Acquiring new episodes of your beloved super robot show would require some hobo style back alley blowjobs and groveling to get your mitts on one or two, shit quality, episodes. It was a tremendous pain in the ass.

I thank Bram Cohen for Bittorrent. He's made getting hot and fresh episodes of Gaogaigar a snap!

Stop stealing, or stop squealing!

So far as a potential market collapse goes, I'm not too concerned with it. The anime DVD section of Best Buy is never flooded with old crap, so they appear to have their ordering / stock system down pat. The problem could arise for places like SunMSRPcoast where they are charging MSRP, or slightly above, and product isn't moving.

Y'know - aside from Best Buy, I can't think of a brick and mortar "Big Box" store that carries much anime. I'm completely ignoring shit holes like SunMSRPcoast and your local Comic Shop since they're the ones traditionally raping you.

Blah di blah di fucking blah.

Anime will only ever continue to sell to niche markets like yourself if you use that kind of rationalization.

For the rest of us, who see anime and TV shows as competition for our dollars, it's relatively easy to ignore anime with its high costs in favour of other DVDs or TV shows which seem to have more value.

But of course, anime is a niche appeal... and even tho the current pricing scheme would make it even more niche... shut out some of the more casual fans that it would otherwise appeal to (and of course the cheaper bastards), it's a business... a balancing act, between balancing the profits per disc and the numbers sold.

 

[The Take Out Bandit]

For the rest of us, who see anime and TV shows as competition for our dollars, it's relatively easy to ignore anime with its high costs in favour of other DVDs or TV shows which seem to have more value.

What the fuck are you sniffing man?

I've got more standard movies and television series in my collection than anime, simply because I'm pretty narrow minded when it comes to anime. Which means I don't want and lot, nor am I required to spend a lot.

That doesn't mean I'm comfortable with plunking down what I plunk down (especially for hentai, boy - you pay the pr0n premium for that shit), but the value of what I'm purchasing has increased over the years.

In 1996 I paid $120 for The Record of Lodoss Wars box set. Fast foward to 2003, or there abouts and I paid $35 for the same series, on DVD, bilingual, and with nifty extras. All I got for $120 back in the day was six vhs tapes and a Deedlit phone card.

Pay attention - companies like ADV and CPM are catering to your cheap asses by providing low budget back catalogue stuff as "Anime Essential" lines and such.

I take it you haven't read the previous discussions about the cost of licensing and translation here? Go up a few posts. Enlighten yourself.

If you've got anime taste, but Friends box set money - that's your budgetary problem. Not mine.

Why are Criterion DVD's $25-35 dollars, when shitty Adam Sandler movies are $5-10?!

Figure it out people.

 

[slayn]

I never watched any fansubs, and I know what Naruto is.

I first saw it in Shonen Jump. He'd see it in there or in the graphic novels or when it begins airing on TV. From there he may or may not buy the DVDs. He'd just know about it later than he would with fansubs.

Theres no way you can convince me that 95% of the people (non-japanese) that watch naruto fansubs would have even heard of it without fansubs.

frankly, I think even knowing what shonen jump is let alone reading it places you into a pretty small minority. The only way anyone would ever have heard of it is when it shows on TV here in which it will probably be stripped down to a kid's show and everyone would have shrugged it off as another generic kid's show.

To think that even half the people that watch naruto fansubs would have bought naruto dvd's instead is moronic.

Elitist?

How anybody can construe that as elitist is beyond me, but the fact of the matter remains; you're a whiny fucking moron.

Anime today is cheaper than it was when I was buying it, and making less money at my job!

If you can't afford to buy anime, find another hobby, or shut the hell up with the petty rationalization of your thievery. You damned milk babies need to grow up. Things cost money and you'll realize this when you are kicked out of the nest and forced to live here in the real world. Buying trivial things like video games or anime is a priveledge, not a god given right. Quit yer bitching!

its extremely elitist to think that just because you are getting what you want that should be good enough for everybody. Its the old, 'well I walked through 5 feet of snow uphill both ways...'

shit can get better and still be shit. And its completely reasonable to not stop complaining until it stops being shit. It's not about what you can afford, its about not letting yourself get ripped off. If you are fine with getting ripped off just because you are not getting ripped off quite as badly as you used to, thats fine, but don't expect everyone else to conform to your low standards.

 

[slayn]

In 1996 I paid $120 for The Record of Lodoss Wars box set. Fast foward to 2003, or there abouts and I paid $35 for the same series, on DVD, bilingual, and with nifty extras. All I got for $120 back in the day was six vhs tapes and a Deedlit phone card.

I didn't get no phone card

 

[slayn]

also, I'd say very few people would argue that there is no difference between anime and US TV when it comes to DVD sales pricing wise, but the fact of the matter is that if anime distributors want anime dvd sales to be as wide spread as other dvd's, they have to be offered at a competitive price. No amount of explaining to the consumer why the price needs to be higher is going to change that.

Until anime dvd prices match 'sane' dvd prices, a lot of people are going to continue to give anime distributors the middle finger because all they see is two dvds, one costing 4 times as much for no good reason (from a consumer perspective)

as for your whole company A/company B thing, when was the last time a video game that started selling immensely well received a price drop? Companies don't lower prices until their product stops selling at the current price.

 

[The Take Out Bandit]

Ease up on the Post Reply button, son.

its extremely elitist to think that just because you are getting what you want that should be good enough for everybody. Its the old, 'well I walked through 5 feet of snow uphill both ways...'

No, the point is it's better than it's ever been and you folks are still crybabies.

If you are fine with getting ripped off just because you are not getting ripped off quite as badly as you used to, thats fine, but don't expect everyone else to conform to your low standards.

And yet we're not getting hammered as badly as the Japanese fans, even after all the licensing and localization costs are accounted for according to fennec. Crybaby.

It seems to be that way with a lot of things in this great nation of ours. It's cheaper for us than it is our neighbors to the east and to the west, but we still piss and moan because we have no perspective.

I didn't get no phone card

No phonecards for cry babies.

 

[slayn]

I'll punch post/reply as much as I damn well please thank you very much =P


its 'better' but still not 'good enough.'

If say, your favorite sports team made it to the playoffs for the first time in a number of years and then got eliminated you'd probably still be pissed off.

if someone that hated you started punching you in the face instead of kicking you in the balls you'd still feel pretty shitty.

just because things have gotten better is no reason whatsoever to just accept it and not want it to be even better.

just because my neighbor is getting screwed worse than me on say... car insurance or some shit is no reason for me to want to stop being screwed on car insurance.


I bought anime 'back in the day' too and it sucked and it still sucks and I'm going to keep saying that it sucks until it stops sucking.

 

[anotheriori]

If the argument is that people buying anime at the current msrp(or near that price) is going to lower cost of anime, the counter example is that, prices haven't lowered (maybe aside from essential anime [adv]) and that anime market is over saturated. So the anime companies instead of lowering prices just flooded with more expensive anime, assuming that everyone is satisfied with the current pricing.

 

[anotheriori]

And yet we're not getting hammered as badly as the Japanese fans, even after all the licensing and localization costs are accounted for according to fennec. Crybaby.

Aren't the companies the crybabies? and its their fault too because they oversaturated the market. Its the companies job to market and sell the product at reasonable prices that will be bought by alot of people for example; piracy is rampant in china, nintendo releases their older game systems at a reasonable price rather then releasing the gamecube and expect people to pay the skyrocketed price.

 

[Whimsical Phil]

Theres no way you can convince me that 95% of the people (non-japanese) that watch naruto fansubs would have even heard of it without fansubs.

frankly, I think even knowing what shonen jump is let alone reading it places you into a pretty small minority.

Well, I can't speak for areas outside the U.S., but NARUTO HAS BEEN RELEASED IN AMERICA. Unless they are very, very out of touch, American anime fans would certainly know about the series because it is now widely available.

I'd say that it's a safe bet that the people who watch Naturo fansubs also visit anime websites, pick up anime magazines, and hang out in bookstores reading manga. If you're downloading fansubs and watching them, you're probably at least somewhat hip to the anime scene. They go into Waldenbooks and see the Naruto manga on the shelf. "Hey, I saw online and in NewType that this is a good series." Inside the manga is an ad -- "Be sure to watch the Naruto anime coming soon to TV and eventually DVD!"

Are you actually suggesting that the only way people who watch fansubs can gather information about anime series is by downloading them? Granted, they might not hear much about something that has little to no chance of being released over here (Ebichu), but if they're even a casual fan, they'll certainly hear about a mainstream show like Naruto from somewhere...it'll just be a few months later than the people watching fansubs.

And yes, knowing what Shonen Jump is DOES place me in a small minority...the same small minority as just about every other anime fan in the country.

The only way anyone would ever have heard of it is when it shows on TV here in which it will probably be stripped down to a kid's show and everyone would have shrugged it off as another generic kid's show.

The quality of the dub is completely irrelevant to this discussion. That's another topic entirely (thank you Philosophy 101!).

To think that even half the people that watch naruto fansubs would have bought naruto dvd's instead is moronic.

And that's exactly what the anime companies are worried about.

as for your whole company A/company B thing, when was the last time a video game that started selling immensely well received a price drop? Companies don't lower prices until their product stops selling at the current price.

That's why I said "steadily lower the price." This isn't a process that happens immediately. It happens slowly over the course of several years. Obviously, Microsoft isn't going to say, "Halo 2 is selling great! Let's cut the price in half!" SNES and Genesis games typically ranged between $50-$80. PS1 and N64 games typically ranged from $50-$60. PS2, Xbox, and GameCube games typically range between $30-$50.

I never claimed that the lowering of prices would be immediate. It takes time and mainstream acceptance (i.e. more people buying the crap).

 

[Hero]

Fansubbing helps promote anime, as I'm sure it also hurts sales. It's a double edged sword.

I'm sorry, but how can they expect people to just plunk down 20 dollars for 4 episodes of a series that they -might- or -might not- enjoy?

 

[slayn]

Well, I can't speak for areas outside the U.S., but NARUTO HAS BEEN RELEASED IN AMERICA. Unless they are very, very out of touch, American anime fans would certainly know about the series because it is now widely available.

I'd say that it's a safe bet that the people who watch Naturo fansubs also visit anime websites, pick up anime magazines, and hang out in bookstores reading manga. If you're downloading fansubs and watching them, you're probably at least somewhat hip to the anime scene. They go into Waldenbooks and see the Naruto manga on the shelf. "Hey, I saw online and in NewType that this is a good series." Inside the manga is an ad -- "Be sure to watch the Naruto anime coming soon to TV and eventually DVD!"

Are you actually suggesting that the only way people who watch fansubs can gather information about anime series is by downloading them? Granted, they might not hear much about something that has little to no chance of being released over here (Ebichu), but if they're even a casual fan, they'll certainly hear about a mainstream show like Naruto from somewhere...it'll just be a few months later than the people watching fansubs.

And yes, knowing what Shonen Jump is DOES place me in a small minority...the same small minority as just about every other anime fan in the country.


The quality of the dub is completely irrelevant to this discussion. That's another topic entirely (thank you Philosophy 101!).


And that's exactly what the anime companies are worried about.


That's why I said "steadily lower the price." This isn't a process that happens immediately. It happens slowly over the course of several years. Obviously, Microsoft isn't going to say, "Halo 2 is selling great! Let's cut the price in half!" SNES and Genesis games typically ranged between $50-$80. PS1 and N64 games typically ranged from $50-$60. PS2, Xbox, and GameCube games typically range between $30-$50.

I never claimed that the lowering of prices would be immediate. It takes time and mainstream acceptance (i.e. more people buying the crap).

The only way any of my friends who watch anime learn about new shows is by me downloading it and showing it to them. They don't care to read about it at all.

And I only find out about new shows by watching episode 1's on animesuki.

I have 8 friends that watch anime and I can gaurantee you that all 9 of us (including me) would have no clue what naruto is without fansubs for me to download.

There is too much crap in anime that people still love for me to want to 'investigate' new shows. Its easier just to watch a few episodes on the rare chance that its good. And if fansubs all dissappeared, I'd prolly just stop watching and buying any and all anime. And without me to show stuff off, all my friends would stop watching anime as well.

Hell, without fansubs, I don't think I'd know what naruto is even after it starts airing on TV.