MickeyKnox
Member
Finally saw this today, was out of country when it released, caught the 5pm IMAX screening.
Pretty fucking good.
Pretty fucking good.
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The Dark Knight SPOILER THREAD
- Thread starter Costanza
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domokunrox
Banned
Only funny thing the Joker did was the Pencil magic trick. I still hold my ground that the Joker could have been done by another actor and it would have been better.
For example, Johnny Depp. If you saw Sweeney Todd, you know what I'm talking about.
For example, Johnny Depp. If you saw Sweeney Todd, you know what I'm talking about.
SCULLIBUNDO
Banned
domokunrox said:
I don't think you know what you're talking about.
domokunrox said:
What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever read. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this thread is now dumber for having to read it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
Karma Kramer
Banned
domokunrox said:
You are the scum of the earth.
domokunrox said:
I think part of the appeal to the Joker is that Heath Ledger was relatively unknown (compared to a guy like Depp or Nicholson). Nevermind that he completely disappeared into the character anyway.
But that wasn't the only funny thing the Joker did in the film. A lot of the delivery and timing was spot-on.
"Let her go."
Joker: Oh, very poor choice of words!
"You think you can take our money and just walk out of here?"
Joker: Yeah?
"Harvey Dent never made it home. Who did you leave them with?"
Joker: Me? *looks around innocently* I've been right here! *holds up cuffs*
"And you killed six of my friends."
Joker: *mouths* Six?
Joker: Hiii
His waddle-walk as he leaves the hospital.
And then there's all the other things that were great. Little physical touches like what he does when he says "aggressive expansion." Ledger very much made the character his own. I don't see how Depp could've improved on those lines. It'd have to be a different character altogether.
Talladega Knight
Member
What? GTFO. Not just these forums, I mean GTFO out of Earth. Seriously. You're just talking out you're ass now.domokunrox said:
PS- GTFO
ryutaro's mama
Member
domokunrox gets to revel in getting his asinine post quoted over and over w/o bothering to respond.
Bravo.
Troll am complete.
Bravo.
Troll am complete.
Mgoblue201
Won't stop picking the right nation
The pencil trick was more of a script thing. The greatest thing that I think Ledger brought to the role was his utter ruthlessness despite his sort of whiny voice and odd twitches and mannerisms. It's a very hard marriage to make since he kind of plays up the entire clown factor, and yet not for one second did I ever believe that he had any soul. From what I've seen Depp either does the comical thing well or the menacing yet calm evil thing well, and I don't know if he's ever put that together. But then again, I've never watched Sweeney Todd.
Mgoblue201 said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqrhzwu766E
This is one of my favorite scenes from Batman Begins. I love the way Liam delivers his lines ("it was your father's"), as well as the music.
I'm still trying to pinpoint just what makes this scene so different from anything in TDK. I can't put my finger on it.
Karma Kramer
Banned
domokunrox said:
I just have to reiterate my point again... cause this post is just so fucking idiotic on so many levels.
Just kill yourself. Please.
You have proven in this statement that you have absolutely nothing to offer humanity. The air you breath is a waste and just the existence of yourself on this earth is a disease.
Your dis-approval for this movie is akin to starting a mass genocide somewhere on this nation of ours... its evil... and I loath you with all my might and power. You should suck on a tail-pipe or just blow your brains out... You may think this is a joke... like GAF right now is thinking... oh Karma Kramer is being sarcastic here... he's attempting to be funny... but no... suck on a tail pipe... jump in front of a train... just end yourself.
Seriously... you are fucking up my world.
ryutaro's mama
Member
Karma Kramer said:
STOP
FEEDING
TROLL.
Karma Kramer
Banned
ryutaro's mama said:
That's not what I am doing. I hope someone will understand that post. Its hard to get a point across though with text. It would be much easier to understand if I said it in person.
permutated
Banned
It took two viewings (for me) to get that Joker tricked Batman to go for Dent instead of Rachel.
Great fuckin' film.
Great fuckin' film.
Mgoblue201
Won't stop picking the right nation
It is very hard to pinpoint because there is just so much that makes the whole movie experience, and at some level it's impossible to decipher because it all has to go into a complex and working whole. However, I always thought that one of Begin's strengths was in its cohesive narrative in spite of so many displacements. Liam's speech is spread out over several different cuts in this instance. For example, Liam says, "I can teach you to be truly invisible," and then it cuts to a different place where Bale asks, "Invisible?" It reminds me of Citizen Kane when the movie did a scene cut between the lines "Merry Christmas...and a happy new year," except in this instance it's all one long train of thought, with no sense of time and barely a sense of place, except when it returns to the fight, and the brilliance is that Liam is doing different things in every cut despite the fact that on paper his dialog all looks like one whole. Everything is given such perspective with every cut.AniHawk said:
TDK is of course much more "linear", but I say that TDK is much more of a great movie because where as Begins is more of a ravishing audio and visual vista, TDK has so much context to each scene. For instance, the Scarecrow scene tells you quite a bit. You see Batman busting the Scarecrow's small time operation. You see him limiting the options of criminals. It sets up future improvements for the suit. It sets up the copycat element. How Bruce is having to do more and more to become Batman, wasting his nights away, which sets up an interplay between Bruce and Alfred and shows how ill equipped Bruce is when he actually has to deal with criminals like the Joker (despite what he says, Batman does have limits). And it's a cool action scene. Or how you have to pay attention when the Joker gives his different accounts. I'd have to watch it a few more times to pick up more stuff, but this to me just screams Nolan brothers scene composition, where as Begins had much more of a comic book flow to it.
EDIT: And wasn't the criminal in the Scarecrow scene the same guy who was working for the Joker when he burned all that money? If so, it gives the dogs line even more context.
Anton Sugar
Member
AniHawk said:
Excellent scene choice--definitely gives me shivers whenever I see that scene. One of my favorite scenes from the movie.
I agree, the composition is very different from The Dark Knight. The Dark Knight is more linear and straight to the point--very brutal and "in your face", for lack of a better term, but it still manages depth. Batman Begins, and that scene in particular, has these moments of build up through more dramatic dialogue (though less realistic), more cuts, and amazing delivery (Liam Neeson, you are amazing). Batman Begins had flashbacks (something Nolan has ALWAYS been great with, an area where many directors and scripts fail) and utilized more of Zimmer's great score, as well.
Outcast2004
Banned
domokunrox said:
Sorry but you can't top perfectin. So I'm going to agree with the other guy... you don't know what you're talking about.
Why does everyone keep thinking that Joker should be "funny"? That's not his thing. The guy is a PSYCHOPATHIC KILLER... always has been. This is the type of guy who does thing because HE thinks their funny.
Stop thinking the Nicholson version is anywhere close to what the character actually is. Ledger's is way more in the with what the character is meant to be.
SpeedingUptoStop
will totally Facebook friend you! *giggle* *LOL*
Sweeny Todd...The Joker.....domokunrox said:
:lol :lol :lol Oh man, you got me. HAHA, VERY GOOD, MR. LAU
ryutaro's mama said:
There's a solution. Every single post he makes in any other thread, respond with:
Sure, whatever you say. *nods head while walking backwards*
If we all do it, he'll regret it. Hopefully.
The Librarian
Banned
:lol Yeah, right.domokunrox said:
Though, the pencil magic trick has to be the best damn magic trick I have ever seen.
Anton Sugar
Member
jett said:
But there was inane police chatter in Begins AND TDK...
WHO WAS RESPONSIBLE?
domokunrox said:
You won't find a bigger Depp fan than me, but you're just completely wrong. Almost any other actor would have delved into camp or scenery-chewing at some point or another with the role, but Ledger kept it grounded and brilliant. Trying to trivialize it as something any actor could do, and do even better, is probably the most inaccurate statement anyone's ever made. You truly have no idea what you're talking about, and in fact, I'd love to see you back up the argument with any sort of technicalities or details. I know you can't.
Mgoblue201 said:
The pencil trick was not more of a script thing. Ledger's physical acting was flawless during that part, and it needed to be to make it work to the extent that it did. In most other actors' hands, the pencil trick would have been seen as gimmicky and forced, but Ledger pulled it off in an exceptionally slick way.
Darko
Member
Mr. Snrub said:
I was thinking the same thing while watching it, the whole scene in the tunnels
the kids pretending to shoot, then shit blows up
the police "THATS NOT GOOD" "THATS DEFINATLEY NOT GOOD"
nolan didnt write that shit :lol
Zeliard said:
"and its gone" :lol
the delivery is just fucking perfect
fallengorn
Bitches love smiley faces
Thank you! Goyer is a hack.jett said:Yeah he has a "story credit", but considering how utterly useless and worthless he is outside Nolan's Batmans, I really wouldn't put much weight into that.Still, he did not write TDK's screenplay.
Snowman Prophet of Doom
Member
jett said:
I disagree.
The Blue Jihad
Member
On my fourth viewing I kind of felt like I was watching The Usual Suspects. There's this weird Keyser Soze thing going on. Joker's basically untouchable. Particularly at Dent's coin-flip in the hospital. The coin comes up in Joker's favor, after he's talked about being an agent of chaos and how chaos is fair. It's a total "This guy is protected on high by the Prince of Darkness" flavor. He's a mythic warrior.
Anton Sugar
Member
The Blue Jihad said:
That's why he reminds me of Anton Chigurh. He appears, does his shit in an almost invulnerable manner, then disappears.
SpeedingUptoStop
will totally Facebook friend you! *giggle* *LOL*
The way we see the Joker is kind of like how the people of gotham see Batman. He just shows up outta nowhere, rocks our shit, then leaves.The Blue Jihad said:
SpeedingUptoStop said:
Ledger's Joker is so compelling that it suspends our disbelief even when everything constantly goes his way. The lynchpins of his plans are always a building or boat full of explosives and any questions that arise as to the logistics of it are not given serious thought.
Usual Suspects is a good comparison. When I first left the theatre I pointed out a Fight Club vibe. The Joker's 'power' or personal charisma is such that he has a never-ending supply of minions and firepower. Criminals are exposed to him and they want to serve him, even though he'll kill them at any minute.
All of this works together to create an all-too mortal villain and yet he can do no wrong.
Mgoblue201
Won't stop picking the right nation
I knew who got the credit, but Begins stands out so much on Goyer's Wikipedia page that I thought it was odd. And Begins felt different enough from TDK that I was wondering if the difference in the script was perhaps Goyer himself.jett said:
You could say the same thing for anything that Ledger did. The Joker would have completely fallen apart in the hands of many other actors. The difference is that Ledger's performance was so good in some spots that he made ordinary dialog instantly quotable and otherwise narrative building sequences instantly memorable. Where as the pencil trick was quite a good bit of writing that simply needed to be exploited by Ledger. In other words, it was designed to be an amusing sequence within the script. So when domokunrox proclaims that it's the only funny thing that he did, I was simply trying to communicate that it was so because it was built to be that way and not because Ledger magically made it so based solely on what he did, and then I tried to tell him why he had it backwards. I'm obviously just splitting hairs, but there is a difference between superb writing that Ledger leverages and stuff that Ledger completely makes legendary by his performance, and that's what I'm trying to say.Zeliard said:
It seemed that from the movie Joker either used people from Arkham or like Soze gained leverage over other criminals so that they had almost no choice but to do what he wanted.Dyno said:
The Blue Jihad
Member
Dyno said:
Definitely. Best illustrated by the scene with Gambol's pool table. Gambol's got big, burly mobsters with him. Joker's got teenagers, pretty much. The looks in the teens' eyes were unsettling as hell, because of how much they clearly worshipped Joker. They were genuinely excited to be working for him.
I might go see this movie again tonight...
Mgoblue201 said:
Oh, gotcha. I agree completely.
I think possibly the best example of Ledger making something special out of something ordinary is his "hiii" to Two-Face when he meets him in the hospital. That was a good bit of writing, since it was basically the perfect response, but Ledger's hilarious delivery of such a simple everyday word is what made it so memorable. Or better yet, his "yeah" reply to Gamble asking "you think you can just come in here and take our money?"
Ledger also completely improvised the part where he's in the jail cell clapping sardonically when Gordon becomes Commissioner. That was so brilliantly in-character.
Anton Sugar
Member
Dyno said:
Bingo. I thought this was the most successful part of the movie, although criticism seems to indicate otherwise: Nolan successfully translated comic book-like disbelief into a film. When do the Joker's schemes/plots make sense in the comics? He just sort of...makes it happen. And you don't know how or why he managed to time out the bus escape, how he successfully planted a bomb into a minion and stitched him back up, how he planted explosives in a hospital and ferries undetected, etc. But I didn't care. I just believed that he was capable of doing it, through the performance and the writing. That's one of the strongest points of TDK, for me.
The Blue Jihad
Member
Mr. Snrub said:
The red light! There's a gap because the other buses in line were stopped at the red light in the foreground.
Mr. Snrub said:
This is where I think the Anton Chigurh/Joker parallels are the clearest. It's never really explained how Anton Chigurh does anything that he does, and in fact, many people tried to criticize the film by saying that it's too "unrealistic" how Anton finds everybody so easily and always gets away.
But that's precisely the point - both Anton and Joker run through their respective films like buzzsaws. They appear seemingly out of nowhere, and before anyone can really do anything, they're already gone after having wrecked complete havoc. From the perspective of Batman/Gordon and Sheriff Ed Tom Bell, respectively, the Joker and Anton Chigurh are basically spectres, practically omniscient, unstoppable and with no clear motives. The fact that nothing that Joker and Anton do is ever really explained is completely deliberate and is supposed to make the audience see things from the perspective of the good guys, who are overmatched and by the end, completely lost.
Keyser Soze completely fits that bill, too.
Anton Sugar
Member
The Blue Jihad said:
mrkgoo said:
...
Yeah, I realize there COULD BE/IS an explanation. What I'm saying is the improbability of a bus backing through a bank and leaving at the exact time, and the improbability of the Joker finding a surgeon who could open up a human body, plant a bomb, sew it back up, AND be sure to bring that goon along with him while he planned to be caught...didn't bother me. I didn't even have to wonder "why or how", it just was/is.
The Blue Jihad
Member
Mr. Snrub said:
I'm not getting on your case or anything. I just love how there's a subtle explanation for the timing of the bank school bus escape. Like Joker checking his watch in the bank. Or "school's out" from the bus driver. Or how some traffic lights operate on fixed timers, which can be tracked and logged.
It's very cool how you can watch TDK either way. You can watch it in the "it just was/is" mindset and enjoy it, or you can watch it for those little details and it becomes that much cooler. Either way it's bad-ass.
I found myself believing that he'd have a huge number of henchmen because of all the money he'd been able to steal. The Joker at one point makes a reference to all the mob bosses he's ripped off, so I assume he has millions piled up - before the bank heist at the beginning. With that kind of money, and a demonstrated ability to avoid repudiation by the mob, he can buy all the help he needs and then some.Dyno said:
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