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[Blader]

Yeah not really. The joker knows he is different. Did you for get the whole "different class of criminal?" The whole point of the movie is that he and BATMAN are the same, not him and society.

No, the whole point of the movie is that, ultimately, nobody--except Batman--is truly different from the Joker. He says as much several times in the movie, most notably during the interrogation and when he's hanging upside down at the end. If you couldn't get that, then...I don't know what to tell you.

The "better class of criminal" line is just the Joker's way of differentiating himself from the mob, i.e. he's not in it for the money.

 

[Prime crotch]

The Black Glove would make an excelent villain for the third flic, although ZEA Batman would be a bit too much, and considering on Nolan's verse Bruce saw Faust and not Zorro....

 

[Flo_Evans]

No, the whole point of the movie is that, ultimately, nobody--except Batman--is truly different from the Joker. He says as much several times in the movie, most notably during the interrogation and when he's hanging upside down at the end. If you couldn't get that, then...I don't know what to tell you.

The "better class of criminal" line is just the Joker's way of differentiating himself from the mob, i.e. he's not in it for the money.

I am just going to have to agree to disagree. The joker is infatuated with batman because he sees him as an equal. Did you forget the entire police dept. interrogation? "You are a freak just like me, they will turn on you when they no longer need you" "I am nothing like you!" ?

The joker is trying to prove to batman that gotham is not worth saving yes, but he is wrong. Are you trying to say the main theme of the movie is wrong?! It turns out that the people don't blow themselves up. So the whole point of the movie that the people of gotham are just like the joker is false? I really don't think you understand themes and points of movies if you feel this way sorry. :lol

 

[Buckethead]

While I usually find myself debating with our dear Blader, I find 'em 110% correct in this instance.

I still will debate Batman won because the people of Gotham defeat Joker's misguided ideology in the ferry scene. To say Batman lost would be jaded and pessimistic. The end message is "there is hope, people deserve to have their faith rewarded, but at a price".
Batman (and all heroes) have to pay that price.

"These people...will eat each other" says the Joker but then they don't. And you expect the big black convict guy to push the button but then he throws it out the window. Reverses a stereotype and very Hitchcockian and proof why Nolan is no hack.

The Joker WANTS Batman to believe he's like him, but at the end he deems Batman "incorruptible". You could debate that Batman is like The Joker in that they're both outcasts.
But the difference is The Joker is a murderous monster whereas the people hate Batman because they think he's a murderer, but infact he's a true hero. He "makes the choice that no one else will make".

 

[SpeedingUptoStop]

I am just going to have to agree to disagree. The joker is infatuated with batman because he sees him as an equal. Did you forget the entire police dept. interrogation? "You are a freak just like me, they will turn on you when they no longer need you" "I am nothing like you!" ?

The joker is trying to prove to batman that gotham is not worth saving yes, but he is wrong. Are you trying to say the main theme of the movie is wrong?! It turns out that the people don't blow themselves up. So the whole point of the movie that the people of gotham are just like the joker is false? I really don't think you understand themes and points of movies if you feel this way sorry. :lol

I'm sensing some cognitive dissonance here.

 

[brandonh83]

You know it's one thing to say that you didn't like the movie. But to say--given your posting history--that you didn't like TDK, but enjoyed shit like Speed Racer, Indy 4, and the Star Wars prequels is just...I mean, come on.

I said I didn't like TDK? Hmmm. But yeah, it's true that I liked Speed Racer a lot more. I didn't have any problems with it at all and it just gives me a great feeling when it concludes. I think it has way more "heart" than TDK and is a far more enjoyable movie. I'm not one of those filmgoers who puts acting and dialogue on a pedestal. Sure they're very important but there are plenty other aspects about film that I enjoy as well and TDK didn't have much for me beyond the acting and writing. It's a handsome film, very well made and executed but I just simply did not like the story decisions that were made beyond the warehouse part.

Sorry if you have a problem with that or think my opinions are warped. I just don't think it's such a big deal for people to look for or find other things to enjoy about a film than the performances and writing. Yeah, TDK is profound and superbly well-acted and pretty deep in some aspects, but I think maybe it was a bit too serious. It had all of two action sequences and both of them were kinda poor and boring IMO. I'm not afraid to say that because I've seen plenty others complain about Nolan's action direction. The chase in the middle is pretty good but was far from the best action piece I saw this year, and I already expressed my distaste with the ferry/SWAT/Joker sequence at the end. By this point some of you are obviously thinking oh wow, he doesn't care about anything else but explosions, but no, that's utter bullcrap. But when I go to a BATMAN movie, I kind of want more than Joker rambling on about morality.

TDK is a great movie overall but it's also one of the most overrated movies of all time, IMO. Batman Begins actually felt like a Batman movie because it never once lost focus on Batman himself, whereas TDK was focused on other things that I really didn't care much about in the long run.

 

[Flo_Evans]

So the main point of the movie is proven false by the movie? I think now more than ever they should of removed that scene since it has seemed to confuse people.

"Gotham is not worth saving" was already a heavy theme (and also proven wrong) in Batman Begins.

I really don't see how you can walk away from TDK and say the jokers hypothesis that gotham/people are shit and are all evil like him is true or the main point of the film.

 

[Zabka]

The Joker says whatever he needs to make people do fucked up shit.

A lot of what he does in the movie is to make the "good guys" cross the line. He tries to get Batman to kill him, tries to get the boat people to kill each other, and finally succeeds in turning Harvey into a murderer. The best thing about the Joker is that most of these little monologues he gives are bullshit.

 

[Flo_Evans]

The Joker says whatever he needs to make people do fucked up shit.

A lot of what he does in the movie is to make the "good guys" cross the line. He tries to get Batman to kill him, tries to get the boat people to kill each other, and finally succeeds in turning Harvey into a murderer. The best thing about the Joker is that most of these little monologues he gives are bullshit.

I agree, what I am saying is it is already well established at this point (hell 5 min before the boat scene the joker tricks the police into shooting the hostages) and the whole boat scene was unnecessary to the plot and corny.

 

[DihcarEM]

So the main point of the movie is proven false by the movie? I think now more than ever they should of removed that scene since it has seemed to confuse people.

"Gotham is not worth saving" was already a heavy theme (and also proven wrong) in Batman Begins.

I really don't see how you can walk away from TDK and say the jokers hypothesis that gotham/people are shit and are all evil like him is true or the main point of the film.

No, it's called having an opinion, yours isn't more right then anyone elses. What you are stating is what message YOU got from the movie, other people will get something else. But nowhere is it stated that this specific opinion is correct or fact.

I can very easily see how people could walk away with that opinion, because Joker was right in some respect. A lot of the people on the "civilized"-boat showed that they could very easily be evil, they were just too cowardly to follow-up in the act.
Batman was the only character he was truelly wrong about.

 

[cvkpaladin]

"A lot of the people on the "civilized"-boat showed that they could very easily be evil, they were just too cowardly to follow-up in the act.
Batman was the only character he was truelly wrong about.

I don't think the people were cowardly about following up on the act. Instead, the point I got was that they were actually good people and knew that it was wrong to blow up the other boat thus in the end they couldn't do it.

 

[Flo_Evans]

No, it's called having an opinion, yours isn't more right then anyone elses. What you are stating is what message YOU got from the movie, other people will get something else. But nowhere is it stated that this specific opinion is correct or fact.

I can very easily see how people could walk away with that opinion, because Joker was right in some respect. A lot of the people on the "civilized"-boat showed that they could very easily be evil, they were just too cowardly to follow-up in the act.
Batman was the only character he was truelly wrong about.

No shit thats why I said "I think they should of cut the boat scene", which lead to someone saying it was pivotal to the main piont/theme of the movie... which clearly it is not. Opinions can be wrong. The point of the movie is NOT that everyone is like the joker. If thats your opinion fine, but it is wrong. FACT!

 

[DihcarEM]

I don't think the people were cowardly about following up on the act. Instead, the point I got was that they were actually good people and knew that it was wrong to blow up the other boat thus in the end they couldn't do it.

If the vote had gone the other way i would agree, but it didn't, more then half voted yes to blowing up the other boat. They were even giving excuses on why it was ok to do it, the value of a humanlife. Bald dude was the one that came closest to actually pushing the trigger, but even he didn't want that guilt on his shoulders.
And i also wouldn't call them cowardly if the other people had spoken up or atleast tryed to stop anyone else from pulling the trigger, yet they didn't, they stood by quietly and waited for bald dude to do it.

No shit thats why I said "I think they should of cut the boat scene", which lead to someone saying it was pivotal to the main piont/theme of the movie... which clearly it is not. Opinions can be wrong. The point of the movie is NOT that everyone is like the joker. If thats your opinion fine, but it is wrong. FACT!

For the character of the Joker, it would be one of the main-points of his arc.
No, you're still not right, and you have absolutely no say in what is fact or wrong, especially something as simple as the interpretation of a movie, which is in this case left open to the viewer.
And no i don't think that was the main-theme of the movie, but i could understand how other people might think so.

 

[dmshaposv]

the joker character is bigger than ledger's joker.

It is, and I'd like to see more renditions.

But unfortunately, Ledger's joker achieved legendary status the moment he died. Here was a talented young actor who went out with a bang, not a whimper. Not only will the character become part of his legacy, but the joker will become synonmous with Ledger.

 

[Zabka]

I agree, what I am saying is it is already well established at this point (hell 5 min before the boat scene the joker tricks the police into shooting the hostages) and the whole boat scene was unnecessary to the plot and corny.

I see what you're saying, but the hostage scene was different. The police weren't making a choice to kill innocent people, they were being tricked into it. That was just a ploy to buy the Joker time to finish his boat thing.

I think the boat scene was necessary because the city failed during the hospital panic. Batman had to save one Gotham citizen from other citizens. With the boats, the people passed. Batman saved them from the Joker, not each other.

Edit: Jesus Christ that sounds awful cheesy written out like that. I apologize to anyone who reads it.

 

[The Librarian]

I said I didn't like TDK? Hmmm. But yeah, it's true that I liked Speed Racer a lot more. I didn't have any problems with it at all and it just gives me a great feeling when it concludes. I think it has way more "heart" than TDK and is a far more enjoyable movie. I'm not one of those filmgoers who puts acting and dialogue on a pedestal. Sure they're very important but there are plenty other aspects about film that I enjoy as well and TDK didn't have much for me beyond the acting and writing. It's a handsome film, very well made and executed but I just simply did not like the story decisions that were made beyond the warehouse part.

...

Story and characters (so, writing) are the two most important aspects of any movie.

 

[Elfforkusu]

So the main point of the movie is proven false by the movie? I think now more than ever they should of removed that scene since it has seemed to confuse people.

"Gotham is not worth saving" was already a heavy theme (and also proven wrong) in Batman Begins.

I really don't see how you can walk away from TDK and say the jokers hypothesis that gotham/people are shit and are all evil like him is true or the main point of the film.

IMO part of what makes TDK a great movie is its complexity. The Joker wins (Dent), but he loses (the boat). Gotham is worth saving, but at the same time it isn't.

I'm the kinda guy who gets annoyed when a movie is too clean cut with its message and declaration of absolute truth. The real world is complicated, and TDK reflects that.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

No shit thats why I said "I think they should of cut the boat scene", which lead to someone saying it was pivotal to the main piont/theme of the movie... which clearly it is not. Opinions can be wrong. The point of the movie is NOT that everyone is like the joker. If thats your opinion fine, but it is wrong. FACT!

I think he's right, but he's not quite stating it correctly.

The whole point of the Joker's arc is that he's trying to create chaos and anarchy to prove that, in the end, nobody is any better than him, that he is simply the representation of the potential for evil in every person; he even says, "I'm not a monster, I'm just ahead of the curve," which implies that he feels that other people have the same potential for destructiveness and maliciousness that he does, but other people don't act on it like him.

He tries to make Batman stoop to his level and fails for a time, but it can be argued that inadvertently succeeded because he did tackle Harvey off of the building and kill him, thus breaking his one rule (it depends on whether or not you think Batman intended to knock Harvey off).

He tries to make the people of Gotham become chaotic animals by blowing up the other ferry; he fails because none of them have the stomach for it, but he succeeds in the sense that the civilian boat voted to do it (interestingly enough, the decision of the criminal boat actually works as a sort of counter-theme, that even the lowest people of our society have the potential for good and civility).

And, of course, he succeeds in bringing Dent, the "best of us", down to his level. In the end, the Joker won the day and proved that even if people don't always act out their instincts when chaos comes to them, that darkness does exist within them.

 

[numble]

Yeah not really. The joker knows he is different. Did you forget the whole "different class of criminal?" The whole point of the movie is that he and BATMAN are the same, not him and society.

BATMAN
What were you hoping to prove? That
deep down, we're all as ugly as you?
The Joker looks at the clock...
INT. BOTH FERRIES -- CONTINUOUS
The Passengers brace. Look at the clock. Confused...
INT. PREWITTBUILDING -- CONTINUOUS
The smile disappears from the Joker's face.
BATMAN
You're alone.

...

BATMAN
This city just showed you it's full
of people ready to believe in good.

.

 

[Flo_Evans]

For the character of the Joker, it would be one of the main-points of his arc.
No, you're still not right, and you have absolutely no say in what is fact or wrong, especially something as simple as the interpretation of a movie, which is in this case left open to the viewer.
And no i don't think that was the main-theme of the movie, but i could understand how other people might think so.

Again, the joker is not like the people of gotham. He is not like the criminals in gotham. Your right I have no say in the points and themes of the movie, I will defer to what happens in the movie i.e. the people of gotham prove they are not like the joker. The joker proves he is not like the other criminals by burning the money.

The jokers main motivation is causing chaos. The motivation for the people on the boat to pull the trigger is survival. Completely different besides the fact they didn't even pull the trigger! The whole set up was the joker trying to get batman to get pissed and kill him and break his own moral code.

And if I can't say what is the right or wrong interpretation of the movie what gives you the authority to tell me I'm off base? The theme/point of a movie should not be open to interpretation, it should be clear - again why that scene should be cut.

It's interesting you cling to the one theory of the jokers that turns out completely wrong and backfires on him, while ignoring what he got right - that the people of gotham would turn on batman when they no longer needed him.

 

[Sanjuro]

Jeez at all these people picking apart everything, placing it back together wrong, and then picking apart all over again.

Anyway I saw the new Punisher the other night. It was a better comic book film than the Dark Knight was.

 

[numble]

The jokers main motivation is causing chaos. The motivation for the people on the boat to pull the trigger is survival. Completely different besides the fact they didn't even pull the trigger! The whole set up was the joker trying to get batman to get pissed and kill him and break his own moral code.

Explain why Batman says this about the situation in the script:

BATMAN
What were you hoping to prove? That
deep down, we're all as ugly as you?
The Joker looks at the clock...
INT. BOTH FERRIES -- CONTINUOUS
The Passengers brace. Look at the clock. Confused...
INT. PREWITTBUILDING -- CONTINUOUS
The smile disappears from the Joker's face.
BATMAN
You're alone.

 

[Flo_Evans]

Explain why Batman says this about the situation in the script:

explain what? The joker fails and his theory that deep down everyone is as ugly as him is wrong? That is what I have been saying the entire time! Again, this shows the joker that not everyone is evil there is good in gotham and it is worth saving. This is a continuation of the theme of the 1st movie, not the main theme of the 2nd, and could of been eliminated easily and improved the ending of the movie.

 

[Mike Works]

I'm pretty confident in my claim that no villain can ever be as powerful as the Joker except the Phantasm.

Spoiler

Basically paint Bruce and Andrea to be the perfect couple and then expose her for being a malicious monster who brutally kills her victims.

how would you plan on establishing the importance of her character to bruce when rachel dawes got 2 movies?

 

[Sanjuro]

how would you plan on establishing the importance of her character to bruce when rachel dawes got 2 movies?

Simple...amnesia.

 

[effzee]

It is, and I'd like to see more renditions.

But unfortunately, Ledger's joker achieved legendary status the moment he died. Here was a talented young actor who went out with a bang, not a whimper. Not only will the character become part of his legacy, but the joker will become synonmous with Ledger.

makes all the sense to not wait say another 20-25 yrs to do another joker batman movie.

come right back with a equally talented, or more talented actor (and there are many), and finish the joker vs batman thing.

i did not like the end confrontation. no i dont want some matrix like kung fu but i think batman and joker deserved a better a finish then some attack dogs.

but only if it fits nolan's vision/theme/story for the third. i would hate to find out that they have or come up with a killer story for the third movie with the joker but do not go ahead with it simply because ppl associate the joker with heath now.

 

[numble]

explain what? The joker fails and his theory that deep down everyone is as ugly as him is wrong? That is what I have been saying the entire time! Again, this shows the joker that not everyone is evil there is good in gotham and it is worth saving. This is a continuation of the theme of the 1st movie, not the main theme of the 2nd, and could of been eliminated easily and improved the ending of the movie.

I'm not arguing that that's the main point of the movie, like someone else might have been. I'm just arguing that it's a scene that can't be eliminated because the joker has to fail. Every other element would support his argument otherwise--getting people to want to kill that accountant, killing a good person like Rachel, and corrupting Harvey Dent--would lead Batman to think that Gotham wasn't worth saving.

Batman Begins always started with the premise that Batman thought Gotham was worth saving all along, unquestionably. It was his origin story.

 

[DihcarEM]

Again, the joker is not like the people of gotham. He is not like the criminals in gotham. Your right I have no say in the points and themes of the movie, I will defer to what happens in the movie i.e. the people of gotham prove they are not like the joker. The joker proves he is not like the other criminals by burning the money.

The jokers main motivation is causing chaos. The motivation for the people on the boat to pull the trigger is survival. Completely different besides the fact they didn't even pull the trigger! The whole set up was the joker trying to get batman to get pissed and kill him and break his own moral code. .

You are right, he's a better class of criminal. But the people do have the potential to be that evil, he's just smarter.

Disagree, just because it's survival doesn't make it any more justified. And the fact that the people were making excuses as to why they should blow up the other boat says more then enough about their state of mind.
Everyone on that boat was just as guilty as the bald dude that almost did it. They didn't actually have to pull the trigger all individually, them saying nothing and letting it happen is just as bad as the person doing it himself. Because by your logic, if anyone sees a crime being done, something as severe as rape/murder, and doesn't do/report/get help anything, then he/she wouldn't be guilty in your eyes.

And if I can't say what is the right or wrong interpretation of the movie what gives you the authority to tell me I'm off base? The theme/point of a movie should not be open to interpretation, it should be clear - again why that scene should be cut.

It's interesting you cling to the one theory of the jokers that turns out completely wrong and backfires on him, while ignoring what he got right - that the people of gotham would turn on batman when they no longer needed him.

I'm not telling you that your opinion is wrong, i'm simply saying that you have no right telling anyone else that their opinion is wrong because you think so and that makes it a fact.
I don't believe all movies should be clear cut, i know for myself that it takes lots of the fun away if the creator of the movie treats his/her audience like a 12y old. I'm sure Nolan and everyone else has their own view/interpretation of the movie. But what they gave as as a movie, was left open. This could very well change in part3, if Nolan decides to make it more simplified and clearcut.

No, i'm not clinging to any one theory. I think Joker got several things right, Gotham was in chaos when Joker targeted that dweeb that knew Batman's identity. They played perfectly in his hands and i'm sure seeing the citizens at such a low point wasn't a great moment for Batman to witness.
Even the boats were a win win for both. The prisoners-boat showed like Batman said, that this city was still filled with good people worth fighting for. The other boat, even though it didn't blow up was a win for Joker, imo. Even tough Joker or Batman will never come to know what happend on that boat, those people will still have to live forever with the knowledge of how disgusting,weak and cowardly they were. But i'm sure lots of them will justify it in their own minds someway or another.

 

[jecclr2003]

People seem to hate Begins. No idea why, I consider it on par with TDK. And I honestly didn't buy the obsession in The Prestige:

Spoiler

killing yourself every night so you get applause? The fuck?

Nolan's also said how he doesn't even have a vision for Batman 3 yet. Apparently, Fincher was up for doing Spider-Man but his version was too "out there".

You need to go back and watch the Prestige again, you got the twist wrong.

Spoiler

He wasn't killing himself, he lived every time. He WAS being teleported, but it left a duplicate left behind. Only choice is to kill it

 

[AniHawk]

how would you plan on establishing the importance of her character to bruce when rachel dawes got 2 movies?

It was a clone of Rachel Dawes that blew up.

 

[AniHawk]

You need to go back and watch the Prestige again, you got the twist wrong.

Spoiler

He wasn't killing himself, he lived every time. He WAS being teleported, but it left a duplicate left behind. Only choice is to kill it

Spoiler

Then the real one died the first time since he was teleported and shot.

 

[Buckethead]

how would you plan on establishing the importance of her character to bruce when rachel dawes got 2 movies?

There doesn't need to be two movies to establish that. Bruce in his grief attaches to her and so would the audience. A co-dependent relationship of sorts. As long as they paint her as completely charming and a great person

Spoiler

it'd be crushing when she turns

. In the MOTF movie, the cops are hunting Batman which would fit with the ending of TDK.

And just as Bruce's personal life starts to get back on the up-curve and Batman is starting to be accepted again The Phantasm is on the prowl murkin and skeetin and the blame gets put on Batman and The Riddler(?) is fucking up Gotham. A story about moving on after something bad happens maybe? Paint Batman as on his last leg and re-introduce his humanity into the story a bit.

I don't know where Nolan could take Batman as a character in this plot idea, but it would surely be an emotional look at the Bruce Wayne character. He never has struggled with dual identities in either BB or TDK, so I think it's interesting and uncharted territory. The only moment that this was touched on was in BB when Bruce kicks out his guests.

The reason I like this idea is because one I like the Phantasm but secondly because this would make the story emotional rather than the visceral gut check of a movie that TDK was. Basically if this is indeed Nolan's last stab at the Bats, return the series into some slower, character type storytelling rather than trying to outdo the "bang" of the 2nd entry.

 

[effzee]

i like both ideas...but i think i prefer a riddler angle more...where is working with the cops to catch the batman.

 

[WinFonda]

What I think is the best thing about the Joker is that he's not really a complex character -- he has no real motives or reasons for doing the things he does. As Alfred says "Some people just want to watch the world burn."

It's actually refreshing to have a character who is completely dark and mostly one-dimensional. Exploring the gray areas is nice and all, but even ambiguity can start to feel cliche. The last thing we need is a Joker who was abused as a child and was outcast by society and now he's returned for payback, or whatever. Joker had his "stories" for his scars, but that was all a bunch of bullshit designed to mess with people anyway.

 

[Blader]

I am just going to have to agree to disagree. The joker is infatuated with batman because he sees him as an equal. Did you forget the entire police dept. interrogation? "You are a freak just like me, they will turn on you when they no longer need you" "I am nothing like you!" ?

The joker is trying to prove to batman that gotham is not worth saving yes, but he is wrong. Are you trying to say the main theme of the movie is wrong?! It turns out that the people don't blow themselves up. So the whole point of the movie that the people of gotham are just like the joker is false? I really don't think you understand themes and points of movies if you feel this way sorry. :lol

I really don't think you understand any of what I've written.

The point of the movie is, very clearly, that the people of Gotham are not all like the Joker. Some, when push comes to shove, can and do cross the line; Harvey Dent is the most blatant example of this. But the Joker tries to generalize that all people are, ultimately, just like him. This is not true, and that's exactly what the ferry scene accomplishes.

You have it backwards. You think (or rather, you wrote) that the point of the movie is that the people of Gotham are just like the Joker, but that's not it. The point is that the people aren't all like the Joker.

It had all of two action sequences and both of them were kinda poor and boring IMO.

Look, you're entitled to your opinions, no matter how "warped" I think they are. =P So the above quote is the only part of your post I'm going to respond to.

Two action scenes? Come on, man, at least be fair. There was the bank heist; Batman attacking the Scarecrow; Batman retrieving Lau; the Joker attacking Dent's fundraiser; the Joker shooting Gordon; Batman attacking Maroni in the strip club; Joker attacking Dent's convoy; the city trying to kill Reese; Batman fighting off both Joker's men and police at the same time; and Dent's killing spree as Two-Face. Now there may not have been any crazy spectacle, like in Speed Racer or Transformers, but TDK is hardly lacking in action scenes.

 

[Blader]

So the main point of the movie is proven false by the movie? I think now more than ever they should of removed that scene since it has seemed to confuse people.

"Gotham is not worth saving" was already a heavy theme (and also proven wrong) in Batman Begins.

I really don't see how you can walk away from TDK and say the jokers hypothesis that gotham/people are shit and are all evil like him is true or the main point of the film.

Because he says that in the movie!

You seem to be the only person confused by the ferry scene.

 

[AgentOtaku]

I said I didn't like TDK? Hmmm. But yeah, it's true that I liked Speed Racer a lot more. I didn't have any problems with it at all and it just gives me a great feeling when it concludes. I think it has way more "heart" than TDK and is a far more enjoyable movie. I'm not one of those filmgoers who puts acting and dialogue on a pedestal. Sure they're very important but there are plenty other aspects about film that I enjoy as well and TDK didn't have much for me beyond the acting and writing. It's a handsome film, very well made and executed but I just simply did not like the story decisions that were made beyond the warehouse part.

Sorry if you have a problem with that or think my opinions are warped. I just don't think it's such a big deal for people to look for or find other things to enjoy about a film than the performances and writing. Yeah, TDK is profound and superbly well-acted and pretty deep in some aspects, but I think maybe it was a bit too serious. It had all of two action sequences and both of them were kinda poor and boring IMO. I'm not afraid to say that because I've seen plenty others complain about Nolan's action direction. The chase in the middle is pretty good but was far from the best action piece I saw this year, and I already expressed my distaste with the ferry/SWAT/Joker sequence at the end. By this point some of you are obviously thinking oh wow, he doesn't care about anything else but explosions, but no, that's utter bullcrap. But when I go to a BATMAN movie, I kind of want more than Joker rambling on about morality.

TDK is a great movie overall but it's also one of the most overrated movies of all time, IMO. Batman Begins actually felt like a Batman movie because it never once lost focus on Batman himself, whereas TDK was focused on other things that I really didn't care much about in the long run.

Well said!

 

[Witchfinder General]

Think I'll rewatch the movie on Blu-Ray today. Hopefully a second viewing will soften the overall shittiness that was everything that wasn't the Joker.

 

[rollingstart]

Just watched it on blu-ray on my 1080p set with superb audio...my god, no wonder this is my favorite movie.

 

[DEAD RABBIT]

I think the Joker in the movie tries most of the time, to prove his existence, or his "raison d'etre" and how justified it is, by showing to everybody the thing that drove himself mad. The injustice and double-standards of the established order. Most likely, that's why he uses the Joker theme, as he finds society a moral joke where rules are set in stone, both logical and illogical from a moral standpoint. Those rules appear chaotic, because we think we have a sense of morale, but our rules of society don't match that sensibility entirely and sometimes, not at all.

It's like the Joker's face scars that scream "keep smiling, don't feel for anything outside the bounds of our morale, even when you want to." He also jokes at his victims about those scars, as if he tries to poke fun with them about how simplistic they feel and think about psychos. The Joker doesn't actually fight against society, he has become insane by his view on society, the inconsistency of the existence of moral and immoral rules, how he thinks its people wrongly claim morale supremacy and justice, and what's fair and what not. In a strive of moral justice, the Joker acts in name of the principles of the established order to disillusion them about what principles actually rule them, the principles that rule his mind, pure chaos and pure order, ordered chaos or chaotic order. It functions both as a way for the Joker to persecute society for its ignorance, to take revenge for his arisen insanity which he blames on society and to justify his means of doing both.

On a different note, I didn't like TDK as much as I wanted to, but I thought the Joker was the best performance of any psychotic villain ever. I left the theater mesmerized by him and was stuck with this emotion for several days before the effects wore off completely.

 

[Flo_Evans]

I really don't think you understand any of what I've written.

The point of the movie is, very clearly, that the people of Gotham are not all like the Joker. Some, when push comes to shove, can and do cross the line; Harvey Dent is the most blatant example of this. But the Joker tries to generalize that all people are, ultimately, just like him. This is not true, and that's exactly what the ferry scene accomplishes.

You have it backwards. You think (or rather, you wrote) that the point of the movie is that the people of Gotham are just like the Joker, but that's not it. The point is that the people aren't all like the Joker.



Look, you're entitled to your opinions, no matter how "warped" I think they are. =P So the above quote is the only part of your post I'm going to respond to.

Two action scenes? Come on, man, at least be fair. There was the bank heist; Batman attacking the Scarecrow; Batman retrieving Lau; the Joker attacking Dent's fundraiser; the Joker shooting Gordon; Batman attacking Maroni in the strip club; Joker attacking Dent's convoy; the city trying to kill Reese; Batman fighting off both Joker's men and police at the same time; and Dent's killing spree as Two-Face. Now there may not have been any crazy spectacle, like in Speed Racer or Transformers, but TDK is hardly lacking in action scenes.

I think we just have a misunderstanding. I do not think that the the point is that people are all like the joker, quite the opposite! I was saying the boat scene proves that the people of gotham are not like the joker, but in the grand scheme of things this is not the main point and that scene could of been eliminated.

 

[ThatCrazyGuy]

Just saw the movie for the first time. I absolutely love the Joker performance. Every time he was on screen, I felt this creepy uneasiness. Great, great acting. I love the whole movie. Maybe after multiple viewings it will wear off, but man, its so damn good!

 

[mrkgoo]

I think we just have a misunderstanding. I do not think that the the point is that people are all like the joker, quite the opposite! I was saying the boat scene proves that the people of gotham are not like the joker, but in the grand scheme of things this is not the main point and that scene could of been eliminated.

Yes.

The boat scene is simply a part of the story. The overall arc is the transformation of Harvey Dent, and the Joker trying to say that anyone can fall from grace - even the White Knight of Gotham.

 

[Screenboy]

how can the Phantasm be a good villain for the next movie? alot of the Phantasm storyline elements were used in BB, so itd just seem unoriginal. The villains that'd work well would be The Riddler with a non-DeVito Penguin being vaguely involved. I think The Riddler would be able to test Batman mentally rather than physically ie. setting traps, puzzles, intricate ironic situations in a sort of Jigsaw fashion although not torture porn etc. There can be the obvious backlash of the police and the mobsters to do the physical parts with Gordon trying to subdue them both in the background without causing suspicion.

Depp for Riddler!

 

[Fady K]

I said I didn't like TDK? Hmmm. But yeah, it's true that I liked Speed Racer a lot more. I didn't have any problems with it at all and it just gives me a great feeling when it concludes. I think it has way more "heart" than TDK and is a far more enjoyable movie. I'm not one of those filmgoers who puts acting and dialogue on a pedestal. Sure they're very important but there are plenty other aspects about film that I enjoy as well and TDK didn't have much for me beyond the acting and writing. It's a handsome film, very well made and executed but I just simply did not like the story decisions that were made beyond the warehouse part.

Sorry if you have a problem with that or think my opinions are warped. I just don't think it's such a big deal for people to look for or find other things to enjoy about a film than the performances and writing. Yeah, TDK is profound and superbly well-acted and pretty deep in some aspects, but I think maybe it was a bit too serious. It had all of two action sequences and both of them were kinda poor and boring IMO. I'm not afraid to say that because I've seen plenty others complain about Nolan's action direction. The chase in the middle is pretty good but was far from the best action piece I saw this year, and I already expressed my distaste with the ferry/SWAT/Joker sequence at the end. By this point some of you are obviously thinking oh wow, he doesn't care about anything else but explosions, but no, that's utter bullcrap. But when I go to a BATMAN movie, I kind of want more than Joker rambling on about morality.

TDK is a great movie overall but it's also one of the most overrated movies of all time, IMO. Batman Begins actually felt like a Batman movie because it never once lost focus on Batman himself, whereas TDK was focused on other things that I really didn't care much about in the long run.

I understand where you're coming from Brandon But to be honest, for me, what elevates the Dark Knight into the unbelievably amazing film status to me, is the fact that it takes itself very seriously, and succeeds. I usually go to a Batman (or any comic book film) to see the action in the very same way Iron Man and Spider-Man 2 showcased very very well. But the Dark Knight, in the end, wasn't a comic book film to me, it was a dark drama that went above and beyond what a comic book movie is about - to be honest, I personally think its unfair to even consider it a comic book film because of the Batman IP. I never gave much of a damn about the Batman IP or the Gotham Universe. Nolan and Goyer's re-shaping of Batman into what eventually became Batman Begins, and ultimately, the Dark Knight made me fall in *love* with Batman now.

For instance, I know how you were disappointed at the final showdown between the Joker and Batman, i was expecting something completely different myself. But in the end I was left even more satisfied because it wasnt anything from what I would come to expect from Hollywood - it was a lot more, and that final discussion between the 'hero' and the 'villain' was so superbly done on many levels. The thing is, the stuff the Joker rambles about morality made so much sense, even if twisted, that it felt downright real.

Another gripe I noticed you have is with Two Face. First time I saw the film that was one of the things I wasnt sure about. But upon my second, third, and other viewings, I ended up feeling that Dent's transformation was actually a very crucial aspect of what makes the Dark Knight such an amazing film. I see the transformation and I believe it, i understand why he has gone nuts the way he did. And that last scene before he gets killed gives me the chills at how well done it was. The plot elements of betrayal, corruption, our inner dark side, love - they all blend in very well in this film.

After eight (!) viewings, the one thing I felt was a little less-impressive than the movie was the ferry scene, it was a little slow. But it fit in the overall amazing plot, which ultimately is what made the Dark Knight the greatest film I have ever watched.

 

[SA-X]

I'm not one of those filmgoers who puts acting and dialogue on a pedestal.

I think I understand what your saying but I just found this sentence rather cute. :lol

 

[brandonh83]

Two action scenes? Come on, man, at least be fair. There was the bank heist; Batman attacking the Scarecrow; Batman retrieving Lau; the Joker attacking Dent's fundraiser; the Joker shooting Gordon; Batman attacking Maroni in the strip club; Joker attacking Dent's convoy; the city trying to kill Reese; Batman fighting off both Joker's men and police at the same time; and Dent's killing spree as Two-Face. Now there may not have been any crazy spectacle, like in Speed Racer or Transformers, but TDK is hardly lacking in action scenes.

when I say action sequences, I don't mean 15 second bits of random action. I mean action sequence by the classic definition. and it may have had plenty of quick and sporadic action quips, but none were terribly exciting to me aside from the big chase in the city halfway through. I wouldn't say that Batman Begins had any great ones either to be fair but I thought the sequence in the League of Shadows headquarters was pretty great (though short) and the climax on the tram was pretty good.

I REALLY hate sounding like I was disappointed with the movie. I wasn't at all. It's great. Fantastic in most parts. I mean I ran out and bought it as soon as I could. Just upon rewatching it I was reminded why I didn't walk out as totally blown away as most were. I walked out loving it, to be sure, but... loving it with some reservations. and it's definitely the best movie featuring the Joker and Two-Face that will EVER be made, by a long shot.

p.s. the action in Transformers sucks because the cinematography and editing is all over the place and Michael Bay is a fucking douchebag who puts in the dumbest shit he can possibly imagine.

For instance, I know how you were disappointed at the final showdown between the Joker and Batman, i was expecting something completely different myself.

Well to be honest I was mainly disappointed with the scenes that revolved AROUND that scene. The last scene between Joker and Batman is absolutely incredible, it has my favorite camera angle in the whole movie. I was just disppointed I guess with the way Batman got to the Joker, the ferry stuff as well, and I'm just not a huge fan of the last scene with Two-Face. But, certainly, the actual climax with Batman and Joker basically rocks.

 

[effzee]

the ending dialogue/monlogue/exchange between batman and gordon is the best part of the movie i think.

just the way they show how the theme of lying to restore faith/deserving more with the flashbacks just works really well.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

Part of me feels like Joker didn't even really care about the ferry stuff, like that was mainly a distraction to keep Batman from finding out about Dent going crazy (which was, I think, his real goal, to prove that even the best of them could be corrupted).

Maybe I'm reading a bit too much into it, but there's something about the smug sort of way that he tells Batman about Dent that seems to betray a certain smugness, like that was his main objective.

 

[SpeedingUptoStop]

Part of me feels like Joker didn't even really care about the ferry stuff, like that was mainly a distraction to keep Batman from finding out about Dent going crazy (which was, I think, his real goal, to prove that even the best of them could be corrupted).

Maybe I'm reading a bit too much into it, but there's something about the smug sort of way that he tells Batman about Dent that seems to betray a certain smugness, like that was his main objective.

Joker always has a plan b

and c

and d

and e
and f
and....