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[Carpe Libertatem]

Republicans did the same thing early in Obama's term, actually.

It wasn't until they won majorities (or at least Scott Brown winning) that they actually started obstructing. Which makes sense, how can you obstruct the legislative process when you have no real power in the legislative process?

 

[Nazgul_Hunter]

Symbolic no votes on anything and everything are wastes of the very limited political capital that a minority party has. ).

Yeah voting no on everything Obama proposed really doesn't the Republicans political capital huh

 

[The God]

Don't worry, if enough people change their profile pictures and avatars with "resistance" something good is bound to happen.

don't forget wearing black clothes when you go out

 

[Eidan]

I doubt it but stooping to their level now guarantees it. I also believe that the GOP is far better at messaging and would make the Democrats pay a much bigger price for obstructionism than the GOP ever did. We should pick our battles, use what little capital we have to hit them where they stand to lose the most ground and begin reaching out. It's not about appeasing the GOP, it's about appealing to their voters. Trying to stir up the base seems redundant right now because we're about as riled up and alarmed as we can possibly get.

I think the GOP have the benefit of having both a popular news network and AM talk radio dedicated to spreading their message.

But I think the most effective tactic of Republicans, and one Dems should remember, is that most voters aren't paying attention, and the media rarely calls anyone out. When Republicans were obstructing Obama's entire domestic agenda, headlines didn't read "GOP continues to halt any Obama policy", they read "Congress gridlock AGAIN!" When Republicans filibustered standard items that just helped the government function, the headlines said "Washington isn't working!" The GOP weren't punished, because the tenor of coverage was never "Republican obstructionism", but instead "Washington inefficiency". And when your average voter sees that, they naturally just punish the president's party.

 

[aeolist]

I think the calculus here is that they don't want to look like they opposed everything. That also allows them to focus more attention about the worst of the worst.

But again, I don't think any of that matters, until I googled it yesterday I didn't remember how Republican voted for Obama's cabinet in '09 and none of that shit had any lasting effect.

what you're saying here is that we can't even count on democrats to oppose republicans when it's 100% symbolic meaningless votes against awful things that will happen anyway.

voting as a bloc against all of his cabinet nominees would cost them literally nothing, and they still won't do it. i am absolutely certain that there will be senate defections for every single vote of significance including ACA repeal and SCOTUS appointments.

 

[TheLaughingStock]

Of course. Why do you think Democrats would bend over backwards for the base? Most of you are going to rationally fall in line come election time. Therefore, you can be used, abused, ignored, and taken for granted. There's no alternative.

 

[Eidan]

Republicans did the same thing early in Obama's term, actually.

It wasn't until they won majorities (or at least Scott Brown winning) that they actually started obstructing. Which makes sense, how can you obstruct the legislative process when you have no real power in the legislative process?

Beyond his cabinet nominees, the GOP started lock step obstructionism pretty early. I'm pretty sure the stimulus package received no Republican support.

 

[Kthulhu]

Like I said, completely tone deaf. I want to see democrats who are willing to fight for good as hard as republicans fight for evil. I want to see them call out Nazis for being fucking Nazis.

So much truth in one post.

 

[aeolist]

Of course. Why do you think Democrats would bend over backwards for the base? Most of you are going to rationally fall in line come election time. Therefore, you can be used, abused, ignored, and taken for granted. There's no alternative.

every single democrat who votes for trump nominees needs to be primaried hard. the party needs to burn to the ground before it will be capable of doing the tiniest good for us.

 

[teruterubozu]

The reason why Republicans control everything is for the reason I outlined, and several people in this thread have displayed: a preoccupation with the presidency. Dem voters only show up during presidential elections and ignore midterms.

How do Democrats get voters in the midterms? Honestly the easiest option would be to simply cater more to the inclinations of voters who do show up in midterms: old white conservatives.

Weed on the ballot. Seriously, it's the only thing that gets liberals excited about local elections.

 

[ty_hot]

hey man you cant complain about the democrats, you become a pro-russian-agent instantly.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Bernie and Cenk might have the right idea. You should probably just burn all of D.C. down and start over from scratch.

Yep.

I am officially listed as independent, but i signed up to officially consider myself apart of the Justice Democrats.

These corporate dems and weak kneed dems are never going to hold the GOP or Trump to account on anything, or resist them, on anything.

Bernie is the only person i've seen since the election even bothering to get up on the stump and call Trump out on the shit he's been doing or holding him to account to claims and promises he made on the stump.

We need to take what is now considered the Democratic party and destroy it from the inside, and reform it. There are progressive elements there that barely get any screentime that need to be the actual party itself

 

[Epsilon-delta]

Yup. Our current DNC are basically toddlers who keep putting their hands on the stove expecting a different result and coming away not learning shit. They don't stand for shit and fall for everything.

This x1000.

 

[Carpe Libertatem]

Beyond his cabinet nominees, the GOP started lock step obstructionism pretty early. I'm pretty sure the stimulus package received no Republican support.

Both Maine Republicans plus Arlen Spector (who later switched parties) voted for the stimulus in the Senate. None in the House.

But either way, we're talking about cabinet nominee votes, not legislation, right now. The GOP let Obama have his cabinet, until they had the power to stop it (and even then they didn't block every nominee). Currently, the Democrats have no power to stop Trump's cabinet. I don't care about meaningless symbolic votes.

Now, if we start getting major defections on things like ACA repeal, sure, I'll be against that. But that hasn't happened yet.

 

[Discotheque]

I think the GOP have the benefit of having both a popular news network and AM talk radio dedicated to spreading their message.

But I think the most effective tactic of Republicans, and one Dems should remember, is that most voters aren't paying attention, and the media rarely calls anyone out. When Republicans were obstructing Obama's entire domestic agenda, headlines didn't read "GOP continues to halt any Obama policy", they read "Congress gridlock AGAIN!" When Republicans filibustered standard items that just helped the government function, the headlines said "Washington isn't working!" The GOP weren't punished, because the tenor of coverage was never "Republican obstructionism", but instead "Washington inefficiency". And when your average voter sees that, they naturally just punish the president's party.

Thats a good point. The average voter doesn't really look into the minutiae of these situations. If something is wrong then it is the president's partys fault. That's it.

Democrats need to be obstructionist now. They'll only be sinking somebody else's ship anyways.

And we really need somebody who captured the zeitgeist like jon stewart did during the bush era too. Republicans are kicking Democrats ass so badly right now on the popular news media front.

 

[OniBarubary]

I'm not sure how much this future political capital is going to be worth when you do not strike and support the current temperament of your constituents who will lose respect and support for you so it isn't there when you need it and actually do start trying to fight back.

Obviously they're trying to play the smart game here but I honestly don't believe Democrats care. They want to see the people they voted for feeling the same way they do and "telling it like it is" and are basically at a very important time seeing the people they expected to fight for them capitulate. It's incredibly demoralizing regardless of if it's the right move or not.

 

[Vincent Grayson]

Follow the money.

This has been my biggest concern since before Trump took office. That he will do a ton of horrible things, but manage to elevate whatever economic indicators necessary for everyone to just ignore everything awful.

Never underestimate how much terrible shit most of this country will tolerate if they can be convinced that the economy is doing well.

 

[Future PhaZe]

But that's exactly the problem - by not looking like the oppose Trump and the GOP, they are implicitly condoning Trump and the GOP. Not only are they sending a signal to the voterbase that they don't have any specific ideology or value that they want to fight for, but also that they are more than fine with putting the fascist/nutjob candidates in power.

It's no wonder people were so apathetic during elections and don't go out when the Democrats are signalling to everyone that it doesn't matter and that they share many similarities with Republicans.

Exactly fucking this. They STILL don't understand the optics here.

 

[Blader]

Democrats have no political capital right now.

That's not true; they have capital for as long as the filibuster remains.

Also, for those who are deeply displeased by the handling of Trump's cabinet nominees, I hope you plan on making phone calls. I'm not kidding.

Absolutely. One of the reasons threads like these rub me the wrong way is because you can tell from their tenor that a number of people who complain about spineless Dems are not actually do anything about it.

I'm not sure how much this future political capital is going to be worth when you do not strike and support the current temperament of your constituents who will lose respect and support for you so it isn't there when you need it and actually do start trying to fight back.

Obviously they're trying to play the smart game here but I honestly don't believe Democrats care. They want to see the people they voted for feeling the same way they do and "telling it like it is" and are basically at a very important time seeing the people they expected to fight for them capitulate. It's incredibly demoralizing regardless of if it's the right move or not.

I would think that even the most cynical, power-hungry view of the Democratic Party should acknowledge that, at the very least, the Democrats would care about taking back Congress and the White House.

 

[royalan]

Yep.

I am officially listed as independent, but i signed up to officially consider myself apart of the Justice Democrats.

These corporate dems and weak kneed dems are never going to hold the GOP or Trump to account on anything, or resist them, on anything.

Bernie is the only person i've seen since the election even bothering to get up on the stump and call Trump out on the shit he's been doing or holding him to account to claims and promises he made on the stump.

We need to take what is now considered the Democratic party and destroy it from the inside, and reform it. There are progressive elements there that barely get any screentime that need to be the actual party itself

Fuck that.

Bernie is another one out there voting to confirm and begging Trump to work with him in every other interview.

He checked his spine in at the door, too.

 

[Lime]

How do Democrats get voters in the midterms? Honestly the easiest option would be to simply cater more to the inclinations of voters who do show up in midterms: old white conservatives.

The Dems can never beat the Republicans in pandering to old white conservatives and in doing so, they burn all the other voter groups along with any hints of leftist ideology on the pyre of pandering to right-winged ideology.

That is exactly the problem and why the Democrats won't ever be a majority because no one will be motivated to vote for them. No wonder people aren't voting in the mid-terms when the Democrats make it clear that they have any actual ideology that addresses the rest of the US.

 

[Malvolio]

Maybe this fantasy that Democrats are the "good guys" will finally be squashed. The majority of them serve themselves just like the Republicans.

 

[Linkura]

Absolutely, and it's completely infuriating that they're STILL doing this when Trump is making fascist executive orders left and right. Almost all of them are useless.

Was extremely disappointed in Warren yesterday. I thought she was better than this. Apparently not. I'll remember this for 2018- but probably still vote for her if no decent primary opponent emerges. No way in fuck I vote R in this climate even if they are "moderate."

 

[Tuck]

I debated over this for a long time but I think breaking, or attempting to break, the atmosphere of hyper-partisanship will be better for the country in the long run than blinding standing in front of every little thing the GOP tries to do. If we don't, do you really expect the GOP to be the bigger man once they lose power again? Finding a middle ground, reaching compromise and having a civil discussion are all things necessary for our democracy to continue to function. If we don't even try to achieve these things, we're essentially doomed.

GOP is a lost cause either way. Appeasing them will do nothing.

 

[Blader]

Bernie is the only person i've seen since the election even bothering to get up on the stump and call Trump out on the shit he's been doing or holding him to account to claims and promises he made on the stump.

Not only is this patently false (although I guess it's also possible the only politician whose appearances and speeches you follow is Bernie), but I wonder how you square that with Bernie's "delighted to work with Trump" remark after TPP was rescinded? Surely that doesn't pass the resist-everything-no-matter-what test.

 

[capitalCORN]

Maybe this fantasy that Democrats are the "good guys" will finally be squashed. The majority of them serve themselves just like the Republicans.

It's a case of the lesser evil. Career politicians will always exist.

 

[shinra-bansho]

What are some things that democrats could realistically block until 2018?

Supreme Court appointments if the GOP are too scared to nuke the filibuster.
And legislation.

These are more likely to be done via threat of filibuster leading to concessions though. Again, unless the GOP gets rid of it.

 

[Pyroclastic]

cabinet nominees rarely ever get rejected. this shouldn't come as a shock.

Now if they don't try and stall any potential crazy ass supreme court nominees positions and and don't pushback on some of the evil shit the republicans did with some of the lesser confirmable positions (like the what they did with Cassandra Butts) then I'll be dissapointed.

even with all that wrote I'll be mad if a single democrat votes for de vos in committee. some things are just beyond the pale >_>

 

[funkystudent]

Its almost as if Brexit was a beta test for the US.

Elect a corrupt government that promotes cutting ties and alliances and stripping civilians rights and selling off infrastructure.

Have the opposition be more worried with infighting and keeping themselves employed then actually being opposition and standing by their ideals.

 

[120v]

i'd rather democrats not stoop to GOP 2009-16 levels of trying to block everything "because fuck you". at least not on fairly routine things like confirmation hearings (save for a few cases). fight the battles that matter, this eye for eye stuff is just petty

 

[SlickWilly223]

Good luck reorganizing guys. RNC kinda reinvigorated itself after Obama got into office with the Tea Party movement. RNC eventually took the house shortly after IIRC and you know the rest.

To echo what I've read in this thread. I don't trust any politicians at all. But in a lot of ways, that's why Trump got elected. Republicans were looking for an uncompromising outsider and they definitely got it with Trump. So be careful what you wish for.

 

[Rentahamster]

Fuck that.

Bernie is another one out there voting to confirm and begging Trump to work with him in every other interview.

He checked his spine in at the door, too.

He sure is!

http://time.com/4622703/bernie-sanders-donald-trump-senate-tweet/

 

[Netherscourge]

I agree.

Harry Reid had the right idea.

"Don't help them. Let them own it."

 

[RPGCrazied]

Just saw this on twitter.

I will take any hope I can get right now.

Brian Stelter ‏@brianstelter 26m26 minutes ago
Last night @CarlBernstein said DC Republicans are raising concerns about Trump's "emotional maturity, stability"

 

[slit]

Symbolic no votes on anything and everything are wastes of the very limited political capital that a minority party has. Just like you can't assemble protests against Trump every day, you need to pick and choose your battles for maximum PR/media impact.

If it wasted time I'd agree but they are going to vote anyway. There is no battle. Yes or no is the vote and at least it shows people that they care. Also what political capital? You think the GOP or its base cares about that? The GOP voted no on almost everything and got rewarded for it. Your theory flies in the face of the political realities of the last few years.

 

[teruterubozu]

Just saw this on twitter.

I will take any hope I can get right now.

eh, we've had this same problem in Maine for a long time now. Nothing happens except more immaturity and more instability, while the hardcore gets more supportive of their crazed leader.

 

[Blader]

He sure is!

http://time.com/4622703/bernie-sanders-donald-trump-senate-tweet/

After Trump signed the order to kill the TPP, Bernie literally said he'd be delighted to work with Trump on similar issues. How is that not a problem for the "block everything, everywhere" crowd?

Just saw this on twitter.

I will take any hope I can get right now.

Those concerns are meaningless as long as they do nothing about it. McCain, Graham and Rubio all had concerns about Tillerson, but they rolled right over.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

every single democrat who votes for trump nominees needs to be primaried hard. the party needs to burn to the ground before it will be capable of doing the tiniest good for us.

That's actually every single Democrat in the Senate, including Sanders. All of them have voted in favour of at least one nominee at this point.

 

[BruceCLea]

Water is wet

 

[Chumley]

American Democracy is over.

The system can't work without trust and integrity. It definitely doesn't work without empathy and altruism.

Trump is basically the logical conclusion to the path we started down after 9/11.

Terrorists win.

Yep.

The Democrats are off to a terrible start with no one on the bench for 2020. It's over. The only thing that can save us is mass protests leading to revolution. Women's march x10 sustained over years.

 

[jett]

Are they? In what way? I don't see any kind of political fall out from any of it.

I also, sadly, don't see how they help with a government that doesn't give a fuck.

What did the Women's march accomplish? International Planned Parenthood is still got defunded a day later.

 

[LegendofJoe]

Authoritarians respond to and respect strength, and a lot of GOP voters lean this way. To win back power the Democratic party has to show strength and anger at every turn. Convince people that you are fighting for them and they will rally behind you. If Democrats continue to act like nothing has changed and the status quo is acceptable then we are screwed.

 

[Carpe Libertatem]

cabinet nominees rarely ever get rejected. this shouldn't come as a shock.

Now if they don't try and stall any potential crazy ass supreme court nominees positions and and don't pushback on some of the evil shit the republicans did with some of the lesser confirmable positions (like the what they did with Cassandra Butts) then I'll be dissapointed.

This is basically where I'm at as well. Focus on particularly bad nominees, like Tillerson and deVos.

And if there are Democrats who want to vote against everything so they can run in 2020 and say that they voted against everything the GOP proposed, more power to them.

 

[teruterubozu]

I also, sadly, don't see how they help with a government that doesn't give a fuck.

What did the Women's march accomplish? International Planned Parenthood is still got defunded a day later.

A lot of howling lady memes. At least the right seem to enjoy it.

 

[Glass Shark]

It's the same pearl-clutching mentality of "Oh no, we can't punch Nazis!"

If the Democratic Party wants to get anything done, they need to get mad as hell and FIGHT. Not roll over and retreat back to "think tanks" and politics as usual. Donald Trump is president now, and that's anything but usual.

 

[Ziltoidia 9]

They should be involved and try to sway issues over that they can.

GOP will own it regardless.

 

[Blader]

If it wasted time I'd agree but they are going to vote anyway. There is no battle. Yes or no is the vote and at least it shows people that they care. Also what political capital? You think the GOP or its base cares about that? The GOP voted no on almost everything and got rewarded for it. Your theory flies in the face of the political realities of the last few years.

As I said already, the filibuster - as long as it exists - still grants Dems capital to block legislation or SCOTUS picks they don't like.

"There is no battle" - what? Have you watched any of these confirmation hearings? All of these nominees are going to get out of committee but that hasn't stopped dozens of Dems from tearing into many of their more relatively controversial ones. When you're the minority party and you're already battling for media space with Trump, going full blast in everything, everywhere, is just noise. Concentrate your fire on a few select battles to get the most attention.

And again, the GOP did vote for all of Obama's cabinet picks in 09. Yes, those were much better people than most of Trump's choices, but the power dynamic was the same. The GOP became the party of no with legislation, where they could use the filibuster to their advantage and rally their base in opposition to bills like the stimulus and the ACA. And for now at least Dems still have the power to do the same.

That's actually every single Democrat in the Senate, including Sanders. All of them have voted in favour of at least one nominee at this point.

I think Gillibrand has actually voted no on everyone. She didn't event want to grant Mattis the waiver.

 

[Carpe Libertatem]

It's the same pearl-clutching mentality of "Oh no, we can't punch Nazis!"

If the Democratic Party wants to get anything done, they need to get mad as hell and FIGHT. Not roll over and retreat back to "think tanks" and politics as usual. Donald Trump is president now, and that's anything but usual.

Not voting for cabinet nominees that are going to get approved anyway is absolutely not the same thing as defending Nazis from being punched

 

[Rentahamster]

After Trump signed the order to kill the TPP, Bernie literally said he'd be delighted to work with Trump on similar issues. How is that not a problem for the "block everything, everywhere" crowd?

Bernie's delighted to work on issues that Bernie agrees with, and will fight tooth and nail on issues that Bernie does not agree with. Sounds reasonable enough.

Bernie's been advocating to kill the TPP since forever. He'd look stupid as hell to go back on his principles. If you read what Bernie says and watch what he does, he goes along with issues he agrees with and obstructs issues that he does not agree with.

 

[slit]

As I said already, the filibuster - as long as it exists - still grants Dems capital to block legislation or SCOTUS picks they don't like.

"There is no battle" - what? Have you watched any of these confirmation hearings? All of these nominees are going to get out of committee but that hasn't stopped dozens of Dems from tearing into many of their more relatively controversial ones. When you're the minority party and you're already battling for media space with Trump, going full blast in everything, everywhere, is just noise. Concentrate your fire on a few select battles to get the most attention.

And again, the GOP did vote for all of Obama's cabinet picks in 09. Yes, those were much better people than most of Trump's choices, but the power dynamic was the same. The GOP became the party of no with legislation, where they could use the filibuster to their advantage and rally their base in opposition to bills like the stimulus and the ACA. And for now at least Dems still have the power to do the same.

There is no battle in the sense that them showing up to vote is NOT a battle. They vote, there is nothing else to it for that particular role. Also, if you think Dems didn't get rid of the filibuster because some in the GOP voted for Obama's nominees you're delusional. If the GOP is going to nuke the filibuster they are going to do it because of the Supreme Court. Dems voting yes or no to Trump's cabinet will not play into that.