-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim |OT| Het Kos Dovahhe
- Thread starter Blue Ninja
- Start date
- Status
I've always wondered about this, and maybe I'm missing something super obvious, but how do you make a game truly open world without level scaling? If you remove it, by default some areas will be off-limits because they're too high level for you. Seems to kind of defeat the point, really. I understand the want for tailor-made unique weapons and gear, but it seems a small price to pay for a game that is completely open.zethren said:
AzureNightmare
Banned
In an open world, I want to have that feeling of danger if I'm going off that beaten path. I want to know that at any moment I could become a smear of blood on a boulder as punishment for going somewhere I shouldnt have.EviLore said:
That's what the difficulty slider is for!EviLore said:
Well, sort of, but there can always be bosses and dungeons that are increasingly difficult as you progress inside of them. Some areas of the map can always have enemies that, despite scaling, are always a step ahead of you.
The story still has some sort of linearity, I would imagine, and will get progressively harder as you make your way through it. The same goes for quest chains (again, speculation).
Scaling doesn't necessarily make the game easy mode no matter what. Granted, I don't know if that's how it's going to work in Skyrim, but I'm just saying that it's possible to make an open world game with scaling and still retain an element of difficulty.
toddhunter
Member
EviLore said:
Exactly..see Dark Souls. There are plenty of places that you shouldn't go to until much later in the game. But if you want, you can still risk it, especially for running in and trying to grab a bit of gear before you die.
All optional, and extremely fun and rewarding to do, especially when you don't realise you are not supposed to be somewhere...but succeed anyway.
nickbreckon
Bethesda Community Manager
Hawkian said:
I'm getting my ass handed to me pretty often in this game and I'm not even on the highest difficulty. Actually, I have a pretty funny story to share if you guys are cool with a spoiler-texted anecdote.
RukusProvider
Banned
PC brethren! Who has the best deal going on for the PC version?
Amazon has $0.45 off of the MSRP!RukusProvider said:
RukusProvider
Banned
Izayoi said:
I want Amazon and the developer to make money on the game though. I doubt they can with such steep discounts.
Actually, the real problem with scaling is difficulty on a whole, not just making it too easy. If it predicts correctly you can maintain a steady challenge, but if it fucks up the game can get extremely easy... or it can get extremely hard. Late game Oblivion was me having to constantly dial down the difficulty slider because enemies were too unreasonably strong/durable, meaning if I didn't adjust it'd be nigh unwinnable.Izayoi said:
Oh, forgot about those.EviLore said:
Yeah, that's probably your best bet if you're really strapped for cash.
I didn't think about that. You make an excellent point.RukusProvider said:
Right, but that was Oblivion. It's entirely possible that they fixed it for Skyrim, right?Eusis said:
While initial impressions may not be too terribly positive, there's always hope!
Eusis said:
But it's also incredibly "strange". When you see bandits with leather armor and later on, glass armor, it totally breaks any illusion of a "real" world the game had. Not to say that a constant challenge can be really tedious at times. You don't necessarily want the player to always have to fight for his life. High and lows are also fun.
Honestly, I'm leaning towards fixed just because of how they simplified it from how it sounds (probably for the best, Fallout's system felt less like having numbers for numbers sake), as it'd be better to have the game get too easy than too difficult due to scaling.Izayoi said:
And... yeah, not constantly fighting for my life IS good, though I imagine they'd have a bunch of easy pushover enemies mixed with tougher ones around anyway, rather than a little imp being as troublesome as a troll.
EDIT: Actually, the "level scaling by area" thing sounds like a good compromise. Places too high for me crush me unless I'm just really damn good, places that are supposed to be pushovers ARE pushovers, and a bit of wiggleroom in between.
I swear Todd said something about returning to old areas and cleaning up and just feeling overwhelmingly powerful.DTKT said:But it's also incredibly "strange". When you see bandits with leather armor and later on, glass armor, it totally breaks any illusion of a "real" world the game had. Not to say that a constant challenge can be really tedious at times. You don't necessarily want the player to always have to fight for his life. High and lows are also fun.
It seems to have sold rather well. Feels good.EviLore said:
I think a new game that adheres to some of its unconventionally hardcore design decisions but with a completely different atmosphere- something not necessarily even scary or dark- would be pretty successful through word of mouth. When I talk to people about Dark Souls it reminds me of how I would talk about Battletoads and Mario 3....
nickbreckon
Bethesda Community Manager
Dresden said:
The system is similar to the one in Fallout 3. You're going to hit scenarios and enemies that get pretty tough, and some that make you feel pretty powerful.
Hawkian said:
Okay, here's a hilarious thing that just now happened to me. More of a unique systemic confluence and less of a real spoiler, but of course don't read if you want to go in 100% fresh.
It was the dead of night and I was trudging west out of Riverwood, winding my way up a small foggy hill and idly lighting plants on fire, when I heard someone screaming in the distance. As I approached the crest of the hill, a roaring campfire lit the unsurprisingly grim scene: a circle of bloodied bodies decorated the threshold of the encampment, the flickering of firelight the only sign of movement.
I approached the periphery of the post and began systematically looting the victims, because that's what you do when you find a murder scene in Skyrim. I stripped the first fellow bare, feeling pretty good about this little find, pocketing gold and a number of other sentimental objects like a thieving undertaker. And then I heard the sabrecat.
Out from behind one of the tents comes this giant goddamn beast, and immediately I'm thinking about running for it. These things are as large as bears and tough as hell, and it was late and I had places to go. Skyrim has taught me not to be insecure about these decisions. Sometimes I am an orc warrior god; sometimes I am just dogmeat.
I'm about to beat feet when my trusty companion, my beloved Nordic battlegirl, shoots the thing in the eyeball with her bow, draws a glowing sword and charges straight for the bastard. Now I'm in for it, because hey, nobody messes with my girlfriend and doesn't at least get shouted at a little. So I grab my greatsword, down a strength potion and sprint forward, fully expecting to be in for a close fight, if not a reload.
And just as I leap into the fray, right as I'm in mid-power swing, a world dragon drops down from out of nowhere, promptly offs the sabrecat with a flick of its wing, picks me up in its jaws and throws me a hundred yards to my death.
I'm calling that a night.
I approached the periphery of the post and began systematically looting the victims, because that's what you do when you find a murder scene in Skyrim. I stripped the first fellow bare, feeling pretty good about this little find, pocketing gold and a number of other sentimental objects like a thieving undertaker. And then I heard the sabrecat.
Out from behind one of the tents comes this giant goddamn beast, and immediately I'm thinking about running for it. These things are as large as bears and tough as hell, and it was late and I had places to go. Skyrim has taught me not to be insecure about these decisions. Sometimes I am an orc warrior god; sometimes I am just dogmeat.
I'm about to beat feet when my trusty companion, my beloved Nordic battlegirl, shoots the thing in the eyeball with her bow, draws a glowing sword and charges straight for the bastard. Now I'm in for it, because hey, nobody messes with my girlfriend and doesn't at least get shouted at a little. So I grab my greatsword, down a strength potion and sprint forward, fully expecting to be in for a close fight, if not a reload.
And just as I leap into the fray, right as I'm in mid-power swing, a world dragon drops down from out of nowhere, promptly offs the sabrecat with a flick of its wing, picks me up in its jaws and throws me a hundred yards to my death.
I'm calling that a night.
nickbreckon
Bethesda Community Manager
Hawkian said:
Yeah, George Lucas would have loved that moment.
MrBelmontvedere
Member
DX9?!?!
sorry but I just noticed that. $%#^!&# consoles *shakes fist*
hopefully some intrepid modder can fix that (add DX11 shaders that is)
sorry but I just noticed that. $%#^!&# consoles *shakes fist*
hopefully some intrepid modder can fix that (add DX11 shaders that is)
CrocMother
Banned
Calling it, this is going to be one of the fastest growing OTs ever
cpp_is_king
Member
To me, on a philosophical level, level scaling is a sign of poor game design. Any form of level scaling. Part of why you play an RPG is to feel a sense of immersion, and level scaling is one way to remove that immersion. You look at a game like Dark Souls, and all that is required to kill stuff is skill, and sometimes certain abilities / equipment. You can level up all you want but if you aren't good, enemies will always be hard. On the other hand, you can go into some of the hardest areas right off the bat and actually make progress if you're good.
This is what games should be like.
Level scaling is basically the designers saying "we don't want to put in the effort to make a system that is actually somewhat believable because it's too much work". It's a shit concept and I hope it eventually disappears from gaming.
This is what games should be like.
Level scaling is basically the designers saying "we don't want to put in the effort to make a system that is actually somewhat believable because it's too much work". It's a shit concept and I hope it eventually disappears from gaming.
Damn... so much stuff to catch up in this thread.
I'm not worried about item scaling, everything we've heard so far points to the fact that it's similar to Fallout 3 in that respect, and you can find items that are more powerful for your level. That was one of my biggest disappointments of Oblivion, most of the time, loot-collecting and exploration didn't feel as good as it could have been.
That story made me laugh.
Great impressions! Thanks. I know you've only played 6 hours so it's kind of difficult to get a grasp on how the dungeons are, but repetitive dungeons in Oblivion really annoyed me. Have you experienced a varied amount of dungeons here?
Thanks for the impressions and screens. Look so nice.
I'm not worried about item scaling, everything we've heard so far points to the fact that it's similar to Fallout 3 in that respect, and you can find items that are more powerful for your level. That was one of my biggest disappointments of Oblivion, most of the time, loot-collecting and exploration didn't feel as good as it could have been.
nickbreckon said:
That story made me laugh.
Sabre-tooth Cat sound especially mean, but I can't wait for my first actual Dragon encounter. I'm glad Dragon's can pick you up also.
Einbroch said:
Great impressions! Thanks. I know you've only played 6 hours so it's kind of difficult to get a grasp on how the dungeons are, but repetitive dungeons in Oblivion really annoyed me. Have you experienced a varied amount of dungeons here?
Bootaaay said:
Thanks for the impressions and screens. Look so nice.
cpp_is_king
Member
MrBelmontvedere said:
It has nothing to do with consoles. Battlefield 3 came out on consoles and uses DX11. Also, adding DX11 support is far too complex for a modder to come in and do without source code to their engine. It would be a huge overhaul, practically a rewrite of their entire engine.
- Status