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[Lostconfused]

Jesus fuck Guilty Gear is an unforgiving mistress. I'm glad to have found people playing it locally but their skill level is so above mine that it's comparable to beating up a training dummy tied to a bed frame.

Sounds about right.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

DansGame

 

[Krackatoa]

Jesus fuck Guilty Gear is an unforgiving mistress. I'm glad to have found people playing it locally but their skill level is so above mine that it's comparable to beating up a training dummy tied to a bed frame.

This is exactly how I learned to play, and it was a huge boon as I developed very few bad habits. The trick is to look at every situation that leaves you getting murdered, and ask them how to escape it/defend against it/counter it. Ask them whether or not it's possible to beat on reaction vs. on a read, or if you have to focus more on not getting put into said scenario in the first place.

You'll work slowly but surely on defense (Proper use of Faultless Defense, when to GTFO of blockstring pressure with a superjump when you spot a gap, when to counterpoke, when Instant Blocking let's you counterpoke, easy Blitz Shield windows). You're going to find that you'll slowly build answers to every situation, but that many situations between characters on offense are actually quite similar.

Offense, depending on your character, almost always involves nabbing the knockdown in some way and setting up a 50/50 mixup of some kind. As long as you have one coinflip to hit them with on knockdown (Preferably one that goes back into knockdown that doesn't leave you punishable), you'll be able to start scaring them once you get in.

Neutral is a bit more nuanced. Movement, using your air options to get them to whiff slower buttons, counterpoking, whiff punishing, using YRCs...

Just ask the right questions, or ask your locals what questions you should be asking.

 

[iluvgames]

i dont have a PS4 yet so no sf:v beta for me.

I am gonna get smashed so hard in SF:V

 

[JayEH]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWd3N5lDWII

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0hrwZHwvLk

Here's a couple of my matches. Biggest problem right now is not really knowing what to do on a knockdown/keeping up the pressure in general. You'll see my back down too much. Overall I play more aggressive in 5 compared to 4 (I love that 5 forces you to play aggressive btw) but I definitely still need to let er rip more often. The 2800 rank cammy was probably the best player (in terms of ranking) that I beat.

Overall really liking Ryu in this game. Very solid and he's been "buffed" since his "nerfs" in beta 2 and 3. Will probably main Ryu and Cammy and play some Gief on the side for some experience with a grappler. All this until Balrog comes...

 

[DunpealD]

https://youtu.be/EL7dm2xknUs

Don't worry about frame data, you can tell over time what's safe and unsafe. Go into training mode and set the dummy to an attack you think is unsafe and find a punish.

No offense, but every time I read this I can only sigh. When frame data is readily available(not correct on multi hit moves) it is not efficient not to use it.
Understanding frame data and ranges, means understanding the ebb and flow of close quarter action, i.e. knowing your options in offense, defense and when "a turn ends".

I am not going to tell beginners to not worry about frame data when they push buttons in disadvantageous situations and not understanding the implications of their button press.

 

[sixteen-bit]

I have a scrub question. About half way through the last SF5 beta I noticed Laura's j.LK crosses up. Is there any reason I should use that instead of j.MK to crossup? The hitstun seems way lower.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

No offense, but every time I read this I can only sigh. When frame data is readily available(not correct on multi hit moves) it is not efficient not to use it.
Understanding frame data and ranges, means understanding the ebb and flow of close quarter action, i.e. knowing your options in offense, defense and when "a turn ends".

I am not going to tell beginners to not worry about frame data when they push buttons in disadvantageous situations and not understanding the implications of their button press.

Please make the post you said you were going to make. We've had great posts on frame data in this thread and and we could always use more!

 

[DunpealD]

I have a scrub question. About half way through the last SF5 beta I noticed Laura's j.LK crosses up. Is there any reason I should use that instead of j.MK to crossup? The hitstun seems way lower.

Same reason why people use Giefs j.lk knees in USF4 instead of body splash. Lower stun means they are susceptible to immediate throws after landing.

 

[CountBlack]

I have a scrub question. About half way through the last SF5 beta I noticed Laura's j.LK crosses up. Is there any reason I should use that instead of j.MK to crossup? The hitstun seems way lower.

Since it has less block/hit stun, it's easier to immediately go into a command throw afterwards.

 

[Krackatoa]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWd3N5lDWII

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0hrwZHwvLk

Here's a couple of my matches. Biggest problem right now is not really knowing what to do on a knockdown/keeping up the pressure in general. You'll see my back down too much. Overall I play more aggressive in 5 compared to 4 (I love that 5 forces you to play aggressive btw) but I definitely still need to let er rip more often. The 2800 rank cammy was probably the best player (in terms of ranking) that I beat.

Overall really liking Ryu in this game. Very solid and he's been "buffed" since his "nerfs" in beta 2 and 3. Will probably main Ryu and Cammy and play some Gief on the side for some experience with a grappler. All this until Balrog comes...

First match, I see a lot of unconfirmed hits into unsafe specials. They do win you the game against that Birdie but you're going to find that it's going to be the death of you against real opponents.

When you get the knockdown, you don't want to just do a meaty cr.MK into fireball either. It's a waste, as Fireball is minus on block, and the default course of action for a good player is to block low. This means your Plan A (cr.MK xx Fireball) is often going to leave you without pressure. You want to confirm a hit off crossup > cr.MP. Go into throw if they block to set the pace of the match if you think they're going to keep blocking. Finish your blockstring if you think otherwise.

Second video: You're not punishing clearly disadvantageous moves like Spiral Arrow. You used disadvantageous moves in reset situations at punishable ranges (cr.HK) when safer options (cr.MK) were available. Random Tatsus will get punished more often than not (You're trying to thread the needle against a character that doesn't have any move that sticks out for extended periods of time like a fireball).

Both players were not playing very well, as they pressed buttons in some pretty obviously bad situations (After air reset, after blocking Ryu cr.MP). Don't read too much into rank, as you're going to develop a lot of false ideas about what's good and what's not.

 

[JayEH]

No offense, but every time I read this I can only sigh. When frame data is readily available(not correct on multi hit moves) it is not efficient not to use it.
Understanding frame data and ranges, means understanding the ebb and flow of close quarter action, i.e. knowing your options in offense, defense and when "a turn ends".

I am not going to tell beginners to not worry about frame data when they push buttons in disadvantageous situations and not understanding the implications of their button press.

I am mean I don't really care if my move is -5 on block. All I need to know is that a blocked sweep is unsafe and not to throw it lightly. I play mostly online so all my punishes are very safe because of the inconsistency of playing there. I know it's useful to know this stuff by heart if I was a serious competitive player but like I said over time of playing you can see what's safe and unsafe and there is training mode to test out your theories. I rather spend time learning by playing than worrying about frame data. That just isn't fun to me.

 

[SolarPowered]

https://youtu.be/dsUDIQlgo40

Just going to leave my second fight against Vampire Savior Sasquatch here. It's a stupid tough fight against this furry snowman, but seeing him hop around like he's on speed will always amaze considering the age of this game. My Hsien-Ko play can be kind of mediocre, but I try. Please feel free to rate how free I am.

I don't believe it does, I've run into one too many Hadokens with it already. qcb+P is the projectile immune one.

Also, I just comboed into super. In a live match. On purpose! On my first attempt at it, too! qcf+HK, P, qcfx2+P I didn't even train it beyond doing the super input multiple times in training. It just seemed like it would work, and it did. That's not normally a thing I do. But I just went for it, and sure enough, boom. My Karin got a lot more scary now. So, don't play slow footsies with a fully loaded Karin. She has one hell of a whiff punish. I actually had to stop playing because I had to hype off, because that was totally awesome.

I have go harvest a few of these replays before the beta ends. Um, you CAN rewatch previous fights, right?

Karin's V-Trigger Guren Ken is awesome. Her left-right mixup lets her combo right into her CA and it's super easy to boot. Normally I can't do 2xQCF supers from the 2P side at all, but it's easy thanks to Guren Ken. I'm so happy. ;_;

I think I've hit my skill plateau.

You just found the next line you've got to cross. Once you look back at all the previous fights and different games you've played all you see are a bunch of lines you've already cross unbeknownst to yourself.

But 200 hours and 2000 fights and it looks like the same thing will continue in SFV.

How long will it take me to get to 200 hours in SFV and will it be worth it? That's my question.

It doesn't have to do with SFV much but in general. At one point I had 1200 pp and now I'm back to nearly 400. Cross ups routinely hit me because I'm not sure if it's a cross up or a regular jump. I lose repeatedly to people who spam taunts. I feel like I have wasted my time and I'm not sure I want to put more time into it. I wanted to get to 2000 pp before SFV but now i realize it's beyond my skill level and to make matters worse I will probably end USFIV with less than 1000 pp. I wanted to put about 50 more hours into SFIV and grind it out and get better but I'm not sure if it's worth it or if I'm even capable of getting better.

This happened to me a lot too lol.

1) You don't have to worry too much about ending SF4 with a low PP count because at this point in the game's life there's nothing but good players left. You would have to grind for several hours a day just to get to a high count, and I've tried doing that and I felt insane at the end of my sessions. Which conveniently leads me to my next point.

2) You've got the wrong mindset. You're too hung up on points and feeling like you're obligated to get above a certain amount, etc. Right now, the best thing to do would probably be to take a break. It's clear that you're bummed out about your progress, and we've all been there. A few days or weeks off is what I usually take if I'm frustrated with a game. I then go do something else in the meantime.

At the very least, you recognize that you've hit a plateau. That's already a good step towards getting better.

Spoiler

plus if us t.hawk mains can gut it out for this long then it shouldn't be a prob for you /s

I'd go a step further and say she might be too hung up on time too. Thinking a little more deeply about what you're doing wrong fundamentally may shave a few dozen hours of frustration right off. It might be simple special conversions off the stray crouching medium kick that could have sealed a win (something I'm struggling with on Karin's kick special), it might be a matter of anticipating the crossup or it might just be something as simple as getting used to an opponent's spammy offense. It's always the little things that add up to something big.

Even beyond the points, I still am not satisfied. 200 hours and 2000 matches and the only skill that I have managed to carry over to SFV, the whole reason I played so much to begin with, is blocking and predicting wakeup DPs. The points don't mean that much, but the points are a manifestation of my failure to learn. I try implementing what I see in the footsies handbook and it never works. I'm not sure if it's worth my time to continue doing this. Will I be a better player if I play 400-500 hours of SFV? At this point I doubt it.

I found playing other fighters in my backlog to be a huge help. Don't know if you have anything like that. It's funny, but I wouldn't play charge characters without Parasoul, grapplers without Cerebella and the idea of pressing a lot of buttons no longer scares me after VSav Hsien-Ko (and I'm HORRIBLE at "technical" characters). Sometimes a change of scenery will inspire new ways of thinking and fighting. Almost makes it sound like I'm trying to explain the... art of fighting haha.

Alex s.fp is an overhead, and a fantastic meaty on wakeup.

You mean his 6MP? If it is I'm not surprised by why I use it so much now. It's actually a really good spacing normal. I especially like using it against cornered individuals looking for a way out.

And everyone in 3S has an overhead, thanks to universal overhead (mp+mk).

Dude, I didn't even know this existed. I mean, I've seen the move a bunch in tournament play, but I had no idea what is was. One of the first things I did on the SRK wiki was ctrl+F "overhead" and I found nothing.

Thanks

Hardest part of SFV is breaking my habit of busting out lights. I'm also having trouble with legs being a qcf command now.

That is a bad SF4 habit that a lot of people carry into other games. It can definitely get you blown up. In SFV they don't really lead into anything and in anime they can severely reduce your damage output. Versus style fighters are the only one where starting with easy light confirms doesn't murder your damage output. Working on those medium and heavy hit confirms is a big part of good fundamental play.

 

[Marvel]

I accidentally deleted my Necalli matches footage. So pissed.

Was going to post em here in full for tips I desperately need with him.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

That is a bad SF4 habit that a lot of people carry into other games. It can definitely get you blown up. In SFV they don't really lead into anything and in anime they can severely reduce your damage output. Versus style fighters are the only one where starting with easy light confirms doesn't murder your damage output. Working no those medium and heavy hit confirms is a bit part of good fundamental play.

Can you expound upon the medium to hard hit confirms? I need to break this habit. I'm finding it harder than quitting smoking.

 

[JayEH]

snip

Thanks for the input. Yeah I can definitely tell they weren't great players because of dropped combos etc. I've been told about to stop the random tatsus before but I think I just throw that out when I'm nervous or can't think of anything else to do. Hopefully I can correct everything else you talked about once I get the full game and can actually spend some time working on some knockdown set ups. I can see that I don't do anything worthwhile when I get one and it annoys me a lot. Will definitely work on block strings as well. Have always had a hard time with those.

 

[Warxard]

Any Sadira players in KI? Is c.LK a good opener? I notice it completely changes her hitboxes so she can duck under projectiles

 

[Lostconfused]

I am mean I don't really care if my move is -5 on block. All I need to know is that a blocked sweep is unsafe and not to throw it lightly.

You should care about when you can press a button out of block stun as well. If you just mash every time you block you'll get blown up by counter hits and crush counters. If you don't mash or press a button then they are just free to pressure you forever.

 

[Kuksune]

yes i can host a room on PSN or XBL.

Great!! Sorry i have been inactive for awhile btw.

 

[Tan]

Alright, here's something I've always struggled with. For the longest time I thought it was only m bison, but really he's just a more focused version of my problem.

(Seemingly invincible) moves that travel far quickly and are either safe or cause enough pushback that they cant be punished. The issue being that they put me in the corner incredibly quick, and then I don't feel confident that I can react or ever really press a button. I'm a dudley player and I'm taking specifically about moves like dan and sagats knee and bisons wheel kick.

 

[FACE]

I don't think any of those moves you listed are invicible, lol.

Edit: Ex Scissors might be.

 

[Bizazedo]

I don't think any of those moves you listed are invicible, lol.

Edit: Ex Scissors might be.

Yes, EX Scissors in SF4 have some invincibility (I can't remember if it's projectile only, though? I dunno lol). None of the other scissors do, though, and no Bison is going to do a close-range EX scissors unless it's at the end of a combo.

 

[KRaZyAmmo]

Jesus fuck Guilty Gear is an unforgiving mistress. I'm glad to have found people playing it locally but their skill level is so above mine that it's comparable to beating up a training dummy tied to a bed frame.

are you on PS4? I'm looking someone to train with. and yes I'm also having hard time with Guilty Gear where I'm basically a training dummy to most people. I do a lobby every Saturday night (well try to at least)

 

[BumblebeeCody]

Noob reporting.

Looking for help with killer instinct on xbox one, trying to figure out how to effectively execute combo breakers, so far my two best starts work about 1/8th of the time against hard cpus.(basically i hit the right anolog stick as im getting hit) Ultimately after playing the training i still dont feel ive wrapped my head around how the system works, if anyone could give me some tips it would be greatly appreciated.

Just like Third Strike, you cannot just do a combo breaker because you think it's coming. You have to see it coming. You have to play against a lot of people and see how differently each move looks. The worst habit any KI players has, is just pressing Combo Breaker and hoping for the best. If you're unsure, DO.NOT.BREAK.THAT.COMBO! Just let it rock and take the damage.
I played against my friend who only picked Sadira, as such I read Sadiras moves and see what move came out. The new system put in place where it tells you what move type you tried to break is really handy.

That feeling when you just want to quit playing fighting games. I must be a masochist. Why do I keep coming back?

The satisfaction of winning.

Any Sadira players in KI? Is c.LK a good opener? I notice it completely changes her hitboxes so she can duck under projectiles

It's OK for getting people opening but good for an opener? In KI that's kinda hard to say since a good opener can be pretty much all of her moves.

I'm up late so I'm gonna be messing around tonight on random fighting games from KI to USFIV to Smash (lol) etc. Come join if you wanna play a few friendlies
www.twitch.tv/bumblebeecody

 

[sixteen-bit]

Since it has less block/hit stun, it's easier to immediately go into a command throw afterwards.

Same reason why people use Giefs j.lk knees in USF4 instead of body splash. Lower stun means they are susceptible to immediate throws after landing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9pePpxU58M
Thanks, y'all.

 

[SolarPowered]

Can you expound upon the medium to hard hit confirms? I need to break this habit. I'm finding it harder than quitting smoking.

I play Karin and people are super free to her cr.MK which she can follow up with all versions of her kick special and her Guren ken in V-Trigger mode. It's a small part of my game, but I noticed over a dozen times when I connected with a cr.MK and didn't follow it up with her heavy kick special. I honestly think I lost a good half dozen fights or more because I missed out on the extra damage or the valuable okizeme opportunity. It's just easier to do the light version of her kick special on pad. As for the heavy hit confirms, I could have done better with cr.HP which she can follow up with her various specials or V-Trigger Guren ken. Those simple drops mean a lot and practicing those versatile hit confirms will do more than worrying about situation dependent double digit combos.

 

[petran79]

one should not worry about PP and losses. Look at the positive. It saved you from dozens of hate messages, spams, harassments, stalkers, trolling, mic screaming etc

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

I don't think I posted this video? Either way, it's old as shit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZigyLlsev0

Final SFIV video.

Bye SFIV.

 

[Crab Milk Mickey]

Stick with it.

Anyways, I've decided to take a break until SFV. I'll be studying SFV match videos, frame data, and playing GG instead.

It was a good ride USFIV. You were the fighting game that made me want to get good at fighting games. I owe you that much.

The break will have a positive effect.

Relevant and sentimental anecdote: I used to binge on vanilla and Super SFIV when they first came out. Multiple hours for most days of the week, on top of watching match videos and the like to add to the pile of information in the back of my head. Sporadic tournaments here and there - less than I would've liked but that's a different story - added fuel to the fire since it was satisfying to test yourself against someone in person, which in turn lead to frequently playing long sets with skilled people just to learn one specific match-up I was sorely lacking in. I was constantly writing down notes after watching my own replays too, almost obsessively even, all because of how demanding Dhalsim can be against someone who's both competent and knows how to handle the said character. It also bothered me how I'd struggle with what I perceived to be easy BnB's or reactions (which they truthfully were) so I'd have regular practice sessions focusing on nothing but that until I passed some arbitrary, self-imposed litmus test.

All of this lead to an eventual burnout because it never was good enough for me, even if other people complimented me without being aware of any of the above, and I called it quits with SFIV and fighting games in general for 4 - 5 years after I considered myself not doing nearly well enough in particular match-ups or against specific re-occurring opponents who (in the mean time) improved their game as well. Was stuck in a negative mindset much like your own back then and I even abruptly swore off other fighting games I enjoyed because I knew the same end result was going to happen eventually, especially if I kept falling for the same traps or gimmicks. Convinced myself I couldn't get any better, yadda yadda, and I never did scratch that itch throughout all that time if said itch came crawling back again for a brief moment.

Fast-forward to the tail-end of 2015 and I picked up USFIV, largely in part because of this thread and your (as well as others') can-do positive attitude being inspirational. Some things I used to struggle with came a lot easier to me now thanks to a more lenient, relaxed attitude and when I looked back to how I used to play prior to the burnout, I noticed changes in my gameplay that were objectively for the better despite the fact I thought I had reached my skill plateau before. This boosted my confidence - at least vs characters I already had experience against - and negated the stressful nature that is USFIV to a degree, so I forced myself into some downtime whenever that sinking feeling came creepin' up on me again. With SFV finally having clicked with me after 4 betas and me making a conscious effort to learning an arcade stick, I feel motivated enough to the point it's making me restless and I can't wait for SFV to hit, which I thought would never happen again. I know I can do better now than I gave myself credit for (due to misplaced pride et al) and there'll be time to catch up now with how everyone will have to start anew one way or another. I'm even considering traveling down to some nearby international tournaments again, which is saying something given how the aforementioned burnout period and my massively introverted nature, partially thanks to the netcode being solid enough for points of references to be carried over offline.

tl;dr to you and anyone else 'new' to self-improvement in fighting games: learn when to take a step back and to reflect on what actually matters. It sure as hell ain't points in a flawed rank system; focus instead on striving for personal goals and on having fun before you turn yourself off from the genre like I did.

I don't know HOW to approach learning a character besides just going in and fighting and seeing what works, what doesn't. I didn't learn a bnb until Sunday.

I know how to read frame data, but using the knowledge is confusing.

Watching videos of pro players and breaking down their actions help when you have a grasp of fundamentals on a mental level. Dissect why they were successful or where they went wrong, then look at your own matches to see if there's any overlap. Training mode to practice specific circumstances also helps, as well as actively trying to recreate those situations in an actual match until you have the muscle memory for it when under pressure.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

The break will have a positive effect.

Relevant and sentimental anecdote: I used to binge on vanilla and Super SFIV when they first came out. Multiple hours for most days of the week, on top of watching match videos and the like to add to the pile of information in the back of my head. Sporadic tournaments here and there - less than I would've liked but that's a different story - added fuel to the fire since it was satisfying to test yourself against someone in person, which in turn lead to frequently playing long sets with skilled people just to learn one specific match-up I was sorely lacking in. I was constantly writing down notes after watching my own replays too, almost obsessively even, all because of how demanding Dhalsim can be against someone who's both competent and knows how to handle the said character. It also bothered me how I'd struggle with what I perceived to be easy BnB's or reactions (which they truthfully were) so I'd have regular practice sessions focusing on nothing but that until I passed some arbitrary, self-imposed litmus test.

All of this lead to an eventual burnout because it never was good enough for me, even if other people complimented me without being aware of any of the above, and I called it quits with SFIV and fighting games in general for 4 - 5 years after I considered myself not doing nearly well enough in particular match-ups or against specific re-occurring opponents who (in the mean time) improved their game as well. Was stuck in a negative mindset much like your own back then and I even abruptly swore off other fighting games I enjoyed because I knew the same end result was going to happen eventually, especially if I kept falling for the same traps or gimmicks. Convinced myself I couldn't get any better, yadda yadda, and I never did scratch that itch throughout all that time if said itch came crawling back again for a brief moment.

Fast-forward to the tail-end of 2015 and I picked up USFIV, largely in part because of this thread and your (as well as others') can-do positive attitude being inspirational. Some things I used to struggle with came a lot easier to me now thanks to a more lenient, relaxed attitude and when I looked back to how I used to play prior to the burnout, I noticed changes in my gameplay that were objectively for the better despite the fact I thought I had reached my skill plateau before. This boosted my confidence - at least vs characters I already had experience against - and negated the stressful nature that is USFIV to a degree, so I forced myself into some downtime whenever that sinking feeling came creepin' up on me again. With SFV finally having clicked with me after 4 betas and me making a conscious effort to learning an arcade stick, I feel motivated enough to the point it's making me restless and I can't wait for SFV to hit, which I thought would never happen again. I know I can do better now than I gave myself credit for (due to misplaced pride et al) and there'll be time to catch up now with how everyone will have to start anew one way or another. I'm even considering traveling down to some nearby international tournaments again, which is saying something given how the aforementioned burnout period and my massively introverted nature, partially thanks to the netcode being solid enough for points of references to be carried over offline.

tl;dr to you and anyone else 'new' to self-improvement in fighting games: learn when to take a step back and to reflect on what actually matters. It sure as hell ain't points in a flawed rank system; focus instead on striving for personal goals and on having fun before you turn yourself off from the genre like I did.

Need to frame this.

 

[DunpealD]

Please make the post you said you were going to make. We've had great posts on frame data in this thread and and we could always use more!

Originally it was meant for this old post of yours .

My understanding of frame data is now is "this move is slow, doesn't use it openly and carelessly"

Anyway frame data represents time in fighting games, it is how the speed of moves are measured. It is simple fact, definite and the moves will never deviate from the data.

Examples used: USFIV Chun Li frame data at SRK wiki and practical examples are mirror match. For the sake of preparation for SFV, SFIV exclusive options will be put in spoiler.

Now onto frame data in close quarters:

Most basic information in terms of interaction frame data. Depending on hit or block each gives out a different data to the same move. Usually on hit > on block.

The data is always presented from the view of the attacker.

+ means advantage and your character can start moving before your opponent, when really close to your opponent that means your "turn continues"

- means you are at disadvantage and your character recovers slower than your opponent, when really close to your opponent that means your "turn ends"

Another extra condition for ending a turn is distance between the attacker and the defender. The attacker will eventually be too far to continue the attack and thus it will return to neutral.

Note: There are exceptions to the "turn theory", which will be talked about in the later part of the post.

As an attacker you will want to use moves that puts you in advantage.
In a sense when you are at point blank distance and you managed to land a move that puts you in advantage, you initiate a mixup.

Here is a practical example(Chun vs Chun):
P2 blocks P1s cr.lp and puts P1 in +3 who follows up with a 5 frame startup move. This specific sequence is called a Frame Trap in USFIV. More about Frame Traps later on.

P2s possible defensive options after the first block:

• Keep blocking, continues P1s turn
• Use EX SBK(due to invincibility frames), blows P1 away and ends her turn. If P1 reads and blocks this P2 will have lost 1 bar and face a full punish.
• Spoiler

  Backdash
  (same as EX SBK, but defensive and creates distance)
• Spoiler

  FA/RFA
  (both can be thrown, armor broken or for FA blown up by hitting fast twice)

If P2 tries to push any button she will get a counter hit in her face, due to disadvantage. In a sense P1 plants a short "nerf" on P2.

The moment P1 trains P2 to keep blocking, P1 can use throw to "break" the defense. Second possibility is to use an overhead to break a crouching block and a low to break a standing block.

Consequent strategies and ideas created from previous information:

The Frame trap:

Short example what a frametrap is and how to recognize them.

If Fastest opponent startup(3 frames in USFIV, fastest normals) > startup of your next move - advantage on block. 

AND

startup of next move > blockstun

Your next move will beat all moves except those with invincibility frames, i.e. DP.

This means due to the advantage on block and your continued attack he will be more compelled to block after the first hit. If this happens you throw him, because if he pushes a button he gets a counter hit.
Tl;dr: The moment you get frame advantage and have the moves to utilize it, you can engage into a mixup.

Quick and dirty USFIV Chun Li examples using FATool:
cr.lp, cr.mk
FADC forward, cr.lk/lp

The Block string:

If advantage on block > your next attack startup

Then it is a true blockstring and your opponent can do nothing in between. This means he will autoblock the second attack.

Example:
cr. lk chain cancel into cr.lk
cr.lp, cr.lp


The Hit confirm:
Important 3S video about hit confirms

[B]The Combo[/B]
Hit stun > startup of attack

The hit confirm is either a frame trap or a "block string", the important part is that each attack has to be able to combo into each other. Also the latter hits should be special cancellable to ensure optimum pay off.
tl;dr: If it hits you get a combo, if it gets blocked you are safe.

Important note:
You DO NOT try to confirm every single hit. You commit to the sequence and watch for the first hit. To train this in training you put the dummy on random block and do your hit confirm combo/sequence.

The Tick Throw

When in advantage

The Tick Throw is a psychological strategy. Force the opponent to block and throw them when they don't expect it.
Important for a grappler like Zangief, due to big range on lp. SPD.

Note: This forces them to decide between throw teching and blocking. When you trained your opponent to tech the throw you can hit them in the face for counter hit.

The Meaty

When the opponent is knocked down and you hit them on wake up, preferably on your last active frame

Forces the opponent to block on wake up or he gets hit in the face, unless he risks an invincible or armor move. Supposedly in SFV armor does not activate first frame, so that would mean meaties even blow up armored moves.

When hit on last active frame you will have more advantage, possibly enabling new combo opportunity

Example:
SFV: Meaty last active frame Ryu b.HK enables link to at least st.mp, this can lead to HK Tatsu which puts you into another meaty opportunity.
Non-meaty only lets you combo into st.LK, which leads to LK or MK Tatsu.

The Reset

Successful hit and combo, but forcing into a quick reaction situation

Commonly seen as finishing juggle with a light attack, forcing them into air recovery, into dash under for a quick ground cross up. A reset is preferable done to make your next attack hard to block or even forcing a guess.


Extending block pressure

Advantage while you reposition yourself into close up again

As in the description. You skip your opponents turn and keep pressuring.
No universal examples.

Specific examples:
In SFIV:
When Chun has trained the opponent to block, she can use FA into DC to keep pressuring, utilizing the fastest attack after the dash, due to it being +1. Yes, 1 frame can mean a lot.
Seth projectile FADC forward.
In SFV:
Dictator: Psycho Inferno, V-Trigger



Bonus information:

The trade:

When both attacks are active on the same frame

It is a trade.

In SFV this doesn't apply if one attack is "stronger" than the other it will beat the weaker one.

The counter hit:

When you get hit in startup

He gets a counter hit on you.

Obviously there are other things like punishes, etc. But those are pretty apparent.

There might be more, but that should be the gist of it. Just make sure you use your own critical thinking and maybe mix and match things.

If I got anything wrong feel free to correct me. Since I have been sitting a little long on this post .

 

[Astarte]

This is exactly how I learned to play, and it was a huge boon as I developed very few bad habits. The trick is to look at every situation that leaves you getting murdered, and ask them how to escape it/defend against it/counter it. Ask them whether or not it's possible to beat on reaction vs. on a read, or if you have to focus more on not getting put into said scenario in the first place.

You'll work slowly but surely on defense (Proper use of Faultless Defense, when to GTFO of blockstring pressure with a superjump when you spot a gap, when to counterpoke, when Instant Blocking let's you counterpoke, easy Blitz Shield windows). You're going to find that you'll slowly build answers to every situation, but that many situations between characters on offense are actually quite similar.

Offense, depending on your character, almost always involves nabbing the knockdown in some way and setting up a 50/50 mixup of some kind. As long as you have one coinflip to hit them with on knockdown (Preferably one that goes back into knockdown that doesn't leave you punishable), you'll be able to start scaring them once you get in.

Neutral is a bit more nuanced. Movement, using your air options to get them to whiff slower buttons, counterpoking, whiff punishing, using YRCs...

Just ask the right questions, or ask your locals what questions you should be asking.

Yeah, I ask a lot of questions. I'm just not at the level where I can handle all of the shenanigans that all of the characters have right now, so my Bedman gets blown up but I'm still having fun and learning a bit more every week. Run up wild throw still gets me errytime.
Thanks for the advice though, I need to be more hardy on applying FD because lord knows my Bedman setups/escapes aren't 100% safe.

are you on PS4? I'm looking someone to train with. and yes I'm also having hard time with Guilty Gear where I'm basically a training dummy to most people. I do a lobby every Saturday night (well try to at least)

I play on PC, but I do have a copy of the PS3 version so I'd be down to play. I play Bedman for fun, but I'm the most competent with Ky. Ain videos really help.

 

[KRaZyAmmo]

Yeah, I ask a lot of questions. I'm just not at the level where I can handle all of the shenanigans that all of the characters have right now, so my Bedman gets blown up but I'm still having fun and learning a bit more every week. Run up wild throw still gets me errytime.
Thanks for the advice though, I need to be more hardy on applying FD because lord knows my Bedman setups/escapes aren't 100% safe.



I play on PC, but I do have a copy of the PS3 version so I'd be down to play. I play Bedman for fun, but I'm the most competent with Ky. Ain videos really help.

Okay. I'll be trying to get better with Ky. So maybe some critique and stuff could if I face another Ky player.

 

[LakeEarth]

You mean his 6MP? If it is I'm not surprised by why I use it so much now. It's actually a really good spacing normal. I especially like using it against cornered individuals looking for a way out.

Dude, I didn't even know this existed. I mean, I've seen the move a bunch in tournament play, but I had no idea what is was. One of the first things I did on the SRK wiki was ctrl+F "overhead" and I found nothing.

Thanks

No, I mean Alex standing fierce punch, the one that looks like this:

Glad I could help though.

 

[McNum]

I'm going to add to the choir of saying this thread is awesome. Instead of getting frustrated in why I lose so much, I could record a few replays and actually get advice on things I hadn't noticed. Like my habit of jumping out, when the actual thing to do is learn Karin frame data so I can unleash a torrent of attacks until the knockback has separated us too much for that to work anymore. (Or if I finished a combo with a move that separated us.)

Speaking of frame data, I get it now. I was never sure if +1 or -1 was the good one. But it's the straightforward answer. +1 is advantage. (I thought it could have been -1 is faster).

So, yeah, I'm going to credit this thread for encouraging me to give Street Fighter V an honest push. I mean, this is no free ticket to awesome, I have to do a lot of the hard work myself, but it's really nice to have somewhere to compare notes with, you know? I think my big goal will be to get to the level where I can start helping people who want to learn, but to do that, I have to learn it myself first.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

Glad you're getting good stuff out of this thread. It was my intention when I made it to help others grow so the community can grow together.

Originally it was meant for this old post of yours .



Anyway frame data represents time in fighting games, it is how the speed of moves are measured. It is simple fact, definite and the moves will never deviate from the data.

Examples used: USFIV Chun Li frame data at SRK wiki and practical examples are mirror match. For the sake of preparation for SFV, SFIV exclusive options will be put in spoiler.

Now onto frame data in close quarters:





Obviously there are other things like punishes, etc. But those are pretty apparent.

There might be more, but that should be the gist of it. Just make sure you use your own critical thinking and maybe mix and match things.

If I got anything wrong feel free to correct me. Since I have been sitting a little long on this post .

I have roots in Japanese turn based rpgs. So I should think of the turns like a turn in an rpg and be prepared to block on continue depending on the move?

Thanks for the amazing post. You guys are just amazing people.

 

[Joule]

Okay. I'll be trying to get better with Ky. So maybe some critique and stuff could if I face another Ky player.

I also play Ky so I'll try to join your lobbies when they're around.

 

[DunpealD]

I have roots in Japanese turn based rpgs. So I should think of the turns like a turn in an rpg and be prepared to block on continue depending on the move?

Thanks for the amazing post. You guys are just amazing people.

Yes, knowing when it is your turn to push buttons is important and frame data helps you with that. Obviously your opponent will change things up or even do stupid things, but that is the unknown variable inside the "logic". The flow is not definite, but knowing the hard data helps you know your options, when and how you can cash in the risk as the player.
In short don't forget among all the data that there is still human psychological element of taking risk(i.e. sneaking a super or DP into a frame trap), reading opponents, implanting doubts and having a gut feeling.

Like Daigo vs Gamerbee at Dreamhack Winter 2013, Daigo vs Momochi at Stunfest 2015 ,Mike Ross in recent EP. 97 of Excellent Adventures or even just recently Sanford at TKONY.

This is also why I don't really agree with the simplification triangle of strike->throw->guard, when there are a lot more elements at work depending on the game.

Also from Daigo himself:
Source MMcafe: "Daigo Umehara hilarious interview on JP Radio":

Daigo: I think that fighting games aren't all about logic because they happen in real time and there's something like an instinct which is really important. It makes you sense things like "this guy, I swear he's trying to go for that move" from their subtle movements.

 

[McNum]

Glad you're getting good stuff out of this thread. It was my intention when I made it to help others grow so the community can grow together.

I have roots in Japanese turn based rpgs. So I should think of the turns like a turn in an rpg and be prepared to block on continue depending on the move?

Thanks for the amazing post. You guys are just amazing people.

That turn based stuff for frame advantage is good stuff for me, too. I'm in an XCOM mood right now since the sequel comes out in two days, so it just clicked. "Wait, getting your turn extended is stupidly powerful in XCOM, and you're saying that this is what frame advantage is in fighting games?"

I mean, I bet it's a gross oversimplification, but I can work with the idea of if I do the right moves, I can keep my turn going for a while longer. I just have to respect when it's the opponent's turn. Just like leaving a soldier out of cover on the alien turn in XCOM is bad, so is sticking out limbs when it's the opponent's turn in Street Fighter.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

Yes, knowing when it is your turn to push buttons is important and frame data helps you with that. Obviously your opponent will change things up or even do stupid things, but that is the unknown variable inside the "logic". The flow is not definite, but knowing the hard data helps you know your options, when and how you can cash in the risk as the player.
In short don't forget among all the data that there is still human psychological element of taking risk(i.e. sneaking a super or DP into a frame trap), reading opponents, implanting doubts and having a gut feeling.

It's said in this video that there are three types of fighting game players.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qn6FHt2RCV0

I'm Heart, for the most part. I rely on reads even if my muscle memory isn't up to par on everything yet.

I'd like to be more scientific and Brain in my play.

How can I get the most of Brain-type play (tutorial mode). When SFV drops I know I'm going to be needing to spend most of my time in training, but i feel like I'm done with training mode within 20-30 minutes of training session. I know some people who can be in there all day. What can I do to be more like that and be less afraid of the lab?

That turn based stuff for frame advantage is good stuff for me, too. I'm in an XCOM mood right now since the sequel comes out in two days, so it just clicked. "Wait, getting your turn extended is stupidly powerful in XCOM, and you're saying that this is what frame advantage is in fighting games?"

I mean, I bet it's a gross oversimplification, but I can work with the idea of if I do the right moves, I can keep my turn going for a while longer. I just have to respect when it's the opponent's turn. Just like leaving a soldier out of cover on the alien turn in XCOM is bad, so is sticking out limbs when it's the opponent's turn in Street Fighter.

Yeah, it sounds like Press Turn in MegaTen. You're always trying to get your turn extended in those games. And if the enemy extends their turn, it can be game over. I like this line of comparison.

 

[DunpealD]

It's said in this video that there are three types of fighting game players.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qn6FHt2RCV0

I'm Heart, for the most part. I rely on reads even if my muscle memory isn't up to par on everything yet.

I'd like to be more scientific and Brain in my play.

How can I get the most of Brain-type play (tutorial mode). When SFV drops I know I'm going to be needing to spend most of my time in training, but i feel like I'm done with training mode within 20-30 minutes of training session. I know some people who can be in there all day. What can I do to be more like that and be less afraid of the lab?

That really depends on what you are training for. I can spend an hour doing Deejay 1-frame link FADC combos, or spend time on set ups like SFV Ryu meaties.
Imo, in general rather than thinking about the work you need to put in when doing this, you should look forward to the reward that you reap when doing them successfully in actual matches netting you the wins. Training hit confirms and combos obviously also falls into that, because it helps you to be more consistent.

This also applies to "theory fighter". You put on a thesis on how to apply something and test it out in actual matches. When you get the Q.E.D. You do this:

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

That really depends on what you are training for. I can spend an hour doing Deejay 1-frame link FADC combos, or spend time on set ups like SFV Ryu meaties.
Imo, in general rather than thinking about the work you need to put in when doing this, you should look forward to the reward that you reap when doing them successfully in actual matches netting you the wins. Training hit confirms and combos obviously also falls into that, because it helps you to be more consistent.

This also applies to "theory fighter". You put on a thesis on how to apply something and test it out in actual matches. When you get the Q.E.D. You do this:

I need to start approaching the game like an RPG. In RPG's I get very analytical. But I'm not as analytical with fighting game characters I play for some reason. Getting a stick will, I think.

It's going to suck getting a stick the day of SFV because that will limit my progress and there's a tournament the weekend of release and I want to place as well as I can.

So when SFV drops, I'm thinking of concentrating on only one character. I want to level up all elements of my play.

 

[Crab Milk Mickey]

How can I get the most of Brain-type play (tutorial mode). When SFV drops I know I'm going to be needing to spend most of my time in training, but i feel like I'm done with training mode within 20-30 minutes of training session. I know some people who can be in there all day. What can I do to be more like that and be less afraid of the lab?

I overheard Juicebox bring up a good point for someone who was similarly turned off about the notion of spending time in training mode, and as to how to make it a more enjoyable affair.

Basically it boiled down to always going into the lab with a clear, defined purpose. Preferably right after a match concluded if there was something that left you scratching your head. Like whether or not you could've used anything in your arsenal to punish or outright beat a particular move / special attack you've been repeatedly struck by. What the furthest distance is where you can whiff punish against x character. How tight of a window a certain combo or frame trap might be. Examining priorities and how far a move can be pushed against y character. Et cetera.

In other words: always have an objective in mind.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

I know how to use training mode effectively.

But when it comes to a new game, not so much. When I started using training mode in SFIV, I had already accumulated multiple dozens of hours of play already. But when just starting out a new fighter fresh out of the box, I'm drawing a blank.

 

[Ardenyal]

I know how to use training mode effectively.

But when it comes to a new game, not so much. When I started using training mode in SFIV, I had already accumulated multiple dozens of hours of play already. But when just starting out a new fighter fresh out of the box, I'm drawing a blank.

In the first days of 5 there will be plenty of people spamming certain moves. Checking how safe they are and how to punish should prove to be pretty useful =)

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

In the first days of 5 there will be plenty of people spamming certain moves. Checking how safe they are and how to punish should prove to be pretty useful =)

So a good plan of action would be:

1. Master BNB.

2. Make sure you're comfortable with all Anti-Air options.

3. Learn which moves everyone's is spamming and find ways to beat/punish them.

4. Find ways to combo into Super to maximize damage.

Is it dumb that I want to become adequate with most of the cast? Am I biting off more than I can chew?

 

[ShinMaruku]

The worst Cammy in the world returns with a shitload of recordings.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0Ui0bXbRbc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_0FfLa2GZw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rx7DsYeXo_E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlJOksA9pc8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E30xvJUcW04

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHZ96PJG69I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2upLUUscsw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWNJbk5yz60

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

I guess since I'll be breaking in a new stick, I should try as many characters are possible (do all of their story modes) to get used to stick, but my main focus should be my main.

 

[ShinMaruku]

Try many kinds of inputs so you break into the stick. Also prepare for the month of silliness until the one day it just fits.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

The worst Cammy in the world returns with a shitload of recordings.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0Ui0bXbRbc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_0FfLa2GZw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rx7DsYeXo_E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlJOksA9pc8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E30xvJUcW04

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHZ96PJG69I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2upLUUscsw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWNJbk5yz60

Big tip with Cammy. On round starts, see if they do the first move and react. She's good for that. If they throw out an fb, back hand that that shit. If they walk back or forward to increase/decrease space spiral arrow them and punish their walk. Cammy is really great at punishing reactions or bad plays and throwing out backhand at match start without much if any reason to can get you hit with a shoryuken, especially against a Ken.