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[Kurosaki Ichigo]

Although Y's VI stock was crap, do you think it would reach 100k with a better one? I didnt mean that it sold poorly, I mean that those RPGs doesnt reach the mass market, there is a pretty small RPG fanbase if you dont count S-E.

We'll see how Tales of Legendia manages here, it has 3D anime graphics, awesome battle system, 30h length (+25h post-ending characters quest), a little female oriented too....I'd like it to sell over 100k but I doubt it (I know ToS sales, but those are on a Nintendo system without other big rpgs and it was published/promotioned by Nintendo a lot...).

 

[john tv]

See how Y's VI bombed in USA. They want graphics, not superb-gameplay.

And so, most RPGs are sunk in a graphical spiral (my beloved tales included) losing its appeal for japanese and getting very little from USA.

I would blame Ys on poor Konami marketing and handling of the product, rather than the actual quality of the game and its visuals. If Atlus released it, it would've sold twice as much, easily.

 

[djtiesto]

I think there definitely is a market in the US for these types of games, seems everybody I know is into anime, and some of the more heavily promoted games (Tales of Symphonia, SO3), have done rather decently. But I think the 2 biggest hinderances to Japanese RPGs succeeding is their price and lack of advertising. Atlus games, for instance, never drop below $50 and are in such short supply. Granted, you're getting really good value for your money (40-50 hours of gameplay for $50), but if Joe Sixpack goes into EB looking to play an RPG (usually one a year), he'll see Kingdom Hearts and FFX for like $10, and a game with an unfamiliar title like Atelier Iris or Digital Devil Saga for $50, what do you think he'll choose? Plus, most aren't really hyped outside of 1 page print ads in enthusiast magazines. Why not spend some more on promotions or hype? There are a lot of people who are looking for old fashioned, quality RPG times... they just don't know about the games!

And to those who say Western RPGs have been selling well, remember that a lot of them have been hyped to high heavens (Fable, Jade Empire) or shares a major license (KOTOR). Although I can't explain how Morrowind did so well...

 

[shuri]

Morrowind did so well because the game had freedom, as opposed to j-rpgs.

 

[Gamedude]

Didn't Tales of Symphonia sell pretty well in the USA?

 

[Prine]

Sakaguchi has the answer

less random battles, crappy plots and overwords would be a good start (for me)

 

[Hurricane_Chris]

I only played Y's I and II to completetion. I liked them. Are the later games in the series any good?

 

[jarrod]

 

[Hurricane_Chris]

It's a great RPG and much deeper than most give it credit for. Not to mention the fact that online versions of Pokemon or even using the same basic gameplay with a few modifications and different content could make for endless fun that appeals to a larger variety of people....

 

[djtiesto]

I only played Y's I and II to completetion. I liked them. Are the later games in the series any good?

It depends...

III was rather weak, some people like it, it just wasn't my thing. I beat it on Duo, it's short, fairly easy and has dodgy hit detection. It's a sidescroller, different from the other games in the series. The remake for PS2 is also supposed to be average at best.

IV on Duo was a fantastic game, and a lot of fun if you loved I and II on Duo. There's a full translation patch that exists, provided you own the original game CD (not too hard to find off Ebay, and they give you instructions on how to rip the game and patch it and reburn onto another CD). Awesome music and improved graphics over I and II, although the dungeons are a little shorter and less puzzle oriented (overall the game is longer though!). Haven't played the SFC version yet, I hear it's a completely different game, with an all new plot and new dungeons.

V was on SNES, I haven't played it either (still waiting for a translation patch!). But from the looks of it, the graphic style is a LOT different from typical Ys. It's the first traditional Ys game where you can swing your sword, and you can jump... so it's kind of like the in between point between Ys I, II and IV, and Ys VI.

VI came out a few months ago for PS2 and was also out for JP PC. It's a great little game, short at only 12 or so hours long, but an awesome hack and slash. Very quick moving and fast paced, even though jumping feels a bit off (this makes some jumping portions of the game rather annoying). It's still a very good game and definitely worth playing.

Supposedly The Oath of Felghana, which just came out for JP PC, is amazing, like it runs on the VI engine but fixes all its problems. It's basically a retelling of Ys III, except it plays more like Ys VI and the overhead Ys titles instead of a side scroller.

But you really owe it to yourself to play IV and VI.

 

[..pakbeka..]

my prediciton was that next gen there would be less jrpg and more western (meh) rpgs

but I guess I'm partially to blame, since I only bought like 5 rpgs this gen, I just don't have the time anymore

 

[Dragona Akehi]

The future of rpgs?

Needs more

This isn't just a hit and run pimping of the best RPG of the generation, either.

BoFV actually did something with the JRPG genre to make it more interested, at least to me. By making turn based combat more strategic and more akin to SRPGs, and being of a higher difficulty of the average RPG. It has a New Game + that is actually worth playing to boot.

But even a gem like this sold shoddily. :\

I don't know what's in it for Japanese RPG developers. At this rate we're only going to get Dragon Quest, Final Fantasy and Poké, and while I love the former and the latter, it would be utter hell for a gamer like me, of whom the RPG/SRPG genre is what I love best.

Gamers on the whole in Japan have seen slowing sales in general (asides from the above named exceptions). The problem isn't just the RPG genre, it is applying to the entire industry in Japan. Though Drinky was obviously joking, it is obvious that Japan needs something to reignite the love for gaming over there -- not just a lack of RPG sales.

 

[Acosta]

Yeah, I´m mostly agree with Dragona that what happens comes because the situation of the industry in Japan.

It could be really interesting to see Square Enix developing something with the budget of Final Fantasy but that is not Final Fantasy (or include Disney characters), a standard jrpg without any revolutionary feature but with the same spirit of high production values, what do you think would happen?

However, and I´m not an expert as some of you here, but there has been great JRPGs this generation, aren´t you agree? I don´t think it´s a matter of quality afterall.

And JRPGs are not going to dissapear. Adventure never dissapeared, what it happened is that a style of doing adventures passed away, just as text adventures did the same. The core of "adventure" is still there (I reccomend the last Broken Sword, I think Charles Cecile did a great work mixing the essentials of adventure with other genres, I could say the same with Shenmue, that I felt as the future of adventures).

It just need an evolution, I have no doubts that something it´s moving in Japan RPG scene, I can see it in details, in the desire of doing new things. My prediction is that jrpg will have a renaissance in next generation.

 

[wipeout364]

I think they need to tighten things up a bit in Japanese RPGs. I think they should shorten them up a bit. FOr me 40-50 hours is way too long. Personally I don't play RPGs solely for the level grind I play for Story and to enjoy a good combat system.
But even with a good comabt system I don't really want to enjoy over 40 hours of it. It's just too much. If I want to level grind I will fire up WOW on my computer.
Finally the Story, to me RPG's are a way to create an interesting story and memorable characters. I think many RPG's fail at this. They need to get more story into the game and get better writers (professional writers).

 

[Bebpo]

jrpgs these days are very very short. We're talking 15-25 hours these days.

..........................

what?

Besides DDS which is short (25-30 hours) because it's 1/2 a game, pretty much all the rpgs I've played in the last year or two are ~40-50 hours. Even Shadow Hearts 3 which is pretty short will end up being around 35.

Rpgs under 25 hours are like 2% of the total rpgs out there.

 

[Bebpo]

I thought I'd bump this with the early news that Legendia did 190k 1st day vs. Tales of Rebirth which did ~300k first day even when released on the same day as MGS3 which also did ~350k first day.

So once again rpg sales have dropped. In 6 months they've dropped 1/3rd for the Tales series. If this continues and Tales of the Abyss drops to say 100-120k you gotta wonder if even the Tales games are going to start taking these budget hits as they're just not that profitable anymore.

 

[WrathOfOtaibah]

What genre hasn't suffered in one way or another this generation?

 

[Synth_floyd]

FPS, Sports

 

[Shouta]

I don't think the downturn in sales is due to purely saturation. I think it has to do with the fact that the quality of RPGs is going down in general. With such small dev cycles, games are being churned out faster and faster and as a result, the quality of games is going way down. This in turn disenchants the public to the genre and makes them less likely to buy games. If the quality had remained with as many releases as we've had, it might be a different story. I just hope devs and publishers are realizing they really need to take time in making their RPGs and not churn out stuff like what's been released.

 

[Tommie Hu$tle]

For the most part I'm absolutely sick of random enemy turn based combat. It feels so archaic. I don't mind have turn based battles when I can see the enemies on screen and avoid them. But when you don't know when they are coming it gets annoying. Most RPG combat systems are boring, too. I love the combat system in Grandia series, though. My favorite of any RPG.

I agree 100%, the problem with JRPGs is that while the story telling method has improved (that is to say that they have more of it and fancier graphics) the actual game play for the vast majority of legacy RPGs haven't changed since at all. If you look at other genres you will see that they have added life to themselves by incorporating elements from different genres to improve gameplay. For example let's take a quick look at GTA it subtly includes several RPG elements as far as gaining experience and the like it just doesn't beat the player over the head with the concept of gaining experience points. Grandia is another excellent example of what needs to be done in order to improve a player's interest in a game.

I think a FF7 remake would do wonders for getting people to talk about rpgs again in the US. But would it get people to start buying other less well known rpgs? Hmmm, maybe.

I'm of the opposite view, from a gameplay POV we have seen remakes of FF7 they are called FF8 and FF10. What really changed between those games? I think the stagnant gameplay is the issue not storytelling. That's the only thing you are paying for in a FF remake.

Didn't Capcom try something similar on Dreamcast? El Dorado something? And more importantly didn't it TANK?

Yeah, and it was sorta tried with .hack and I'm still not sure why Sega didn't finish up Shining Force III (that was a failure of epic levels IMO). I think however it would be worth while for developers to create an 100 hour game but break it up into 5 20 hour games and release it over a period of 2 years or so charge full price for the first game in order to recoup their investment and then release the next 5 games as budget titles. They'd have to make it compelling but the way I see it they are spending the same amount of money on those Five games as they would on one game. They can increase their profit margin as well as spread out the game. That way the game isn't as much as an investment for the player.

I feel pretty much the same. Just like Belfast, I crave for action and direct, real-time input in my games nowadays(and I used to be a huge RPG fan in the 32bit days). This gen is a complete letdown RPG-wise...

I just wanted to quote this becase this is exactly what I'm looking for.

i used to love rpgs but now play them less and less because there are so many average-bad ones i'm not prepared to waste 30-40+ hours of my life playing what becomes a chore. i think this is why jrpgs worldwide are in decline.

rpgs are an unusual beast, no matter how bad they are there is a strong desire to finish them. probably because of what you've invested in it, and here lies boring gameplay. the consequence of this is complete several bad rpgs and you end up saying no more.

Exactly, you are somewhat "guilted" into finishing the game becasue you have already put in so much time. The only reasonable way you can stop playing is if you put the game down for a while and then try to come back to it but have no clue where you left off and what you need to do to advance the game and the idea of starting over only reminds you of why you hated the game in the first place.

another disturbing trend is the angst ridden teenager who moans at the player throughout the game. it's tedious. i don't want to play dawson's creek in a fantasy setting.

Agreed I think this worked when the average player was in some phase of being an Angsty teenager but, today the avg. RPG player is an adult and would like to see more adults. That all IMO.

ffx killed japanese rpgs for me, after this, that was it. life's too short.

Pretty much the same for me. I was like I don't have time for this shit.

Needs more

This isn't just a hit and run pimping of the best RPG of the generation, either.

BoFV actually did something with the JRPG genre to make it more interested, at least to me. By making turn based combat more strategic and more akin to SRPGs, and being of a higher difficulty of the average RPG. It has a New Game + that is actually worth playing to boot.

But even a gem like this sold shoddily. :\

QFmfT

I don't know what's in it for Japanese RPG developers. At this rate we're only going to get Dragon Quest, Final Fantasy and Poké, and while I love the former and the latter, it would be utter hell for a gamer like me, of whom the RPG/SRPG genre is what I love best.

We are going to see more of them becasue on the development side the combat is easy if you take the pretty graphics away we are seeing the same games that we have seen since the Apple IIc days. Nothing has changed it's all a bunch of random number generators stringed together.


I was talking to DarienA about this earlier, what I'd like to see in a RPG is a game that incorporates SRPG in to the RPG. I want a combat system that would be a cross between Grandia, BOFQ, and Powerstone. I want a combat system that is fast paced and also tatical. I want to be able to use my enviroment in the game, I want to be able to run around and flank my opponet, climb a tree and snipe a from a safe height. Or hide behind a box to give myself good cover. I need a game that spends less time on graphics and story and more time with gameplay.


PS - I'd like for the JRPG creators to start thinking about implementing a journal so if I get tired of their boring 100 hour game and come back to it at hour 67 I know what the fuck I was doing.

 

[Ryudo]

Yeah, KoTOR is pretty solid and SMT9 sucks. But the idea is that at least IMO with rpgs, quality has no bearing on sales so I just meant the western gamer picking up the boxes of both games would be more likely to go with the Star Wars one over some weird Japanese title.

In this instance its the wrong game to compare. Kotor is quality through and through from a proven RPG king.

 

[WrathOfOtaibah]

RPGs in general have stagnated since the PlayStation/Saturn era. They managed to evolve from the 8 and 16 bit era. The only reason I think why the first batch of PS2 RPGs did so well was because PS2 was at full swing in terms of hype and popularity. It was no longer such a rare item and these games looked much better than their PlayStation predecessors.

I just don't think the RPG decline has to do with how many RPGs are getting churned out. The problem rests that the whole genre needs a kick in the ass. No, it shouldn't resemble the shit-tacular PC RPGs. It just needs a whole new direction is all.

 

[Amir0x]

how about hiring people who arent nerds.

or people who are actually writers.

Hey, yo.

DING DING DING. A WINNER.

I'm a geek, whatever, but I can safely say that if the quality of the writing in RPGs improved significantly I would buy so many more.

 

[Agent Icebeezy]

Battle systems put me off in JRPG's. I love the Grandia battle system. I tolerate Final Fantasy games for the story. I simply abhor the fighting aspect of it.

 

[Mr Gump]

I bought Baten Kaitos for the pretty graphics so i would say give me more pretty graphics.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

Hey, yo.

DING DING DING. A WINNER.

I'm a geek, whatever, but I can safely say that if the quality of the writing in RPGs improved significantly I would buy so many more.

Duckroll was talking earlier about how when they do, sales wilt.

Ziran, Tommy: I agree too, but kinda like westernizing or getting a novelist to pen the tale, having an older man (or woman) is not going to bring in those pimply teens who MUST live vicariously thru a pimply teen...that actually does stuff...in a game. Sometimes, even when a director tries to make a mid-20s male the lead, a angsty metro kid will be forced into the lead. *cough*FFXII*cough*

 

[RevenantKioku]

I'm of the opposite view, from a gameplay POV we have seen remakes of FF7 they are called FF8 and FF10. What really changed between those games? I think the stagnant gameplay is the issue not storytelling. That's the only thing you are paying for in a FF remake.

See, I'm flabbergasted at how one can't see the vast changes amongst the games, but I'm much more meticulous in my RPG playing.
But then again, I'm not too picky when it comes to my games. Very few RPGs do I absolutely hate (Dark Cloud 2 and BoF: DQ but I think I've argued with Dragona on that topic more than enough for a lifetime).
But I just can't get enough of turn based, random battles. Just how I am.

 

[sprsk]

Duckroll was talking earlier about how when they do, sales wilt.

Ziran, Tommy: I agree too, but kinda like westernizing or getting a novelist to pen the tale, having an older man (or woman) is not going to bring in those pimply teens who MUST live vicariously thru a pimply teen...that actually does stuff...in a game. Sometimes, even when a director tries to make a mid-20s male the lead, a angsty metro kid will be forced into the lead. *cough*FFXII*cough*

I dont think that theres necessarily a correlation between writers and sales. I think that the lead character is important though. Square knows they have to appeal to the female gamer because alot of the people who buy FF stuff are women (atleast in america). I think if games have better writing, you know something with substance and depth (maybe something not fantasy?), rpgs will grow as a genre and in sales because people will say "oh, rpgs have great stories and really get me involved". To be honest i havent played a video game with a story that has really engaged me in a very very long time and even then it was probably just a freak accident.

 

[Tommie Hu$tle]

Duckroll was talking earlier about how when they do, sales wilt.

Ziran, Tommy: I agree too, but kinda like westernizing or getting a novelist to pen the tale, having an older man (or woman) is not going to bring in those pimply teens who MUST live vicariously thru a pimply teen...that actually does stuff...in a game. Sometimes, even when a director tries to make a mid-20s male the lead, a angsty metro kid will be forced into the lead. *cough*FFXII*cough*

This I agree with and I'm not saying that we should totally move away from the chosen 16 year old who commands an elite fighting force but, it would be nice if they matured the characters a little bit. As you stated here being able to identify with the character for some helps them enjoy the game a bit more.

See, I'm flabbergasted at how one can't see the vast changes amongst the games, but I'm much more meticulous in my RPG playing.

I've seen the changes but, at it's core (with out turning this thread into a I hate/love FF) the basic stragety of the game has been the same three/four of your charaters vs. three/four for the emeny while they have changed the options between the games I don't see much difference between them as far as gameplay. To me it was all about pressing X until I got to the next plot point, I'd equip whatever I needed to make the battles go faster but, the more I played FF the less interest I had in the battle system to the point that I found it to be an annoyance. I only invested in FF after FF7 to see the story unfold.

But I just can't get enough of turn based, random battles. Just how I am.

See you enjoy that playstyle and there is nothing wrong with that but, tons and tons of random battles annoy the hell out of me. I just feel that there is a better way to do it one that would allow someone like yourself who enjoys random battles to play and someone like me would like to play the game but, not HAVE to worry about being attacked by pissant random battles ever 20 to 30 seconds. Also I enjoy SRPGs over RPGs so that is part of it too.

To be honest i havent played a video game with a story that has really engaged me in a very very long time and even then it was probably just a freak accident.

Sadly I feel much the same way (Killer 7 non-withstanding) but, the traditional JRPGs just don't do anything for me anymore it's all been there done that.