Support NeoGAF

[WrenchNinja]

A curator from the British Museum has claimed they “have to be careful about using too many” Asian names on exhibit labels, as they can be confusing to teenagers.

The museum was taking part in #AskACurator on Twitter, in which staff at museums around the world answer questions.

Responding to a tweet from the Museum of Applied Arts and Sciences in Sydney asking “How do you go about designing exhibition labels and information that are accessible to a wider range of people?”, the British Museum’s official account answered: “Curators write the labels based on their specialist knowledge and they are edited by our Interpretation department. We aim to be understandable by 16 year olds. Sometimes Asian names can be confusing, so we have to be careful about using too many.”

https://twitter.com/britishmuseum/status/907895235526701056

The tweets, which appear to have been written by the keeper of the Asia department, led to an angry response from other Twitter users

After the statements had begun to be viewed as controversial, the museum issued a further clarification on its Twitter account:

The twitter thread is something else. More in the article.

 

[starchild excalibur]

Seeing as how that tweet was specifically from the person who deals with Asian artifacts, wasn't he just speaking to the specifics of their department?

If I had to guess a general response would be that they try to minimize the abundance of names that could be considered foreign or confusing in order to maintain simplicity at the cost of specificity.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Tough shit for those confused?

 

[Septimus Prime]

I mean, I get it. Having too many names show up in historical text can make the text incredibly dense. It doesn't really matter the origin of those names, though.

 

[pigeon]

Maybe you shouldn't have stolen so many Asian artifacts

 

[D4Danger]

Maybe you shouldn't have stolen so many Asian artifacts

they never even once stopped to think about how Jane would have write the labels

 

[Wulfric]

There's only so much text you can fit on information placards. This is the British Museum we're talking about here, they aren't purposefully trying to mislead people. By all means, read the small description next to the item, but the audio guide and exhibition catalogue are easily accessible ways to learn more about a particular object. Objects need to be described for the widest possible audience, regardless of language or country of origin. I don't see a problem as long as the curator tries to be as concise, and more information is available for those who desire it.

Twitter isn't really the best place for a question that requires a long form answer. I definitely believe she was speaking specifically about her department.

 

[Slayven]

Make bigger cards?

It's a museum, you are there to explain shit

 

[Dyle]

Poorly worded, but shooting for a 9th grade reading level for museum labels is standard practice. Most people look at any individual object for only a couple seconds, and often less for labels. Writing a concise description, 250 words or less, is hard enough as it is and it has to be written as if it were completely independent, because you can't assume that the guest has read any of the other ones in the gallery.

For instance, where I work we have a number of Chinese statues of Kuan-Yin or Kwan-Yin or Guanyin, or Kannon in Japanese. All of these are accepted westernizations of the Chinese 觀音 but we have to determine which one is right. And then we have to explain what Guanyin is, the correct term for the Chinese works is boddhisatva while for the Japanese it is bosatsu, which means one whose enlightenment through Buddhist study has attained Buddhahood. For our audiences, it tends to make the most sense to just call Guanyin "the Chinese goddess of compassion" which is a gross oversimplification of what she represents as an individual boddhisatva, but going into more specifics doesn't make sense for a small subset of objects in a historic building with lots of other, more relevant information to relay to the guests.

There's nothing wrong with what she said, although I can understand how some might misunderstand it.

 

[WrenchNinja]

She could have easily just said "too many names" can be confusing. That she specified asian names in particular is the issue here.

 

[rambis]

I get the point, they didnt have to say asian though. Plenty of cultures have people with multiple names that would confuse westerners.

 

[Dyle]

I get the point, they didnt have to say asian though. Plenty of cultures have people with multiple names that would confuse westerners.

The problem also rises from the fact that Chinese names in particular are very difficult and unintuitive for English speakers to pronounce. Because you have to write labels in simple English, not Pinyin, you really don't have the space or attention span in your guests to explain how to pronounce words, which means that they will have a harder time keeping track of them and will more than likely give up before they fully digest the information on the label.

Add on the fact that there were the Qing and Ming dynasties, Qin, Xin, multiple Jin dynasties, multiple Song dynasties, multiple Zhou dynasties, and it's easy to see how it can get particularly confusing. Asian cultures are not unique in their naming complexity, but they are the most complex and challenging to your average museum goer, so singling them out as being particularly difficult is reasonable.

 

[maomaoIYP]

Maybe you shouldn't have stolen so many Asian artifacts

10/10, think of the poor curators.

 

[Korey]

I'm reading the Twitter thread, which they've added several "explanations" about their original tweet, and they still haven't explained HOW it's confusing or what the fuck they meant.

https://twitter.com/britishmuseum/status/907905876660539392

E.g. the Buddhist bodhisattva of mercy is known as Avalokitesvara in India, Guanyin in China, Kwanum in Korea and Kannon in Japan.

Yea, you listed a bunch of aliases of the thing from other languages. How is it confusing.

Edit, lol someone replied to that:

https://twitter.com/bishakali/status/907917132519927808

 

[Maintenance]

Are you fucking serious?

 

[Masterspeed]

Who fucking cares? The whole point of not understanding something is to LEARN to understand it. Museums are there to show us and feed us knowledge, not to take it away from us. Fuck, how can that even be a problem?

 

[erragal]

Signs we've made a terrible mistake and over produced on stupid humans.

 

[Qvoth]

greatly enjoyed my time in british museum when i went there few years ago

 

[TheOMan]

Too many *Asian* names is confusing?


What???

 

[Adaren]

I feel like this says more about headline-reaction culture than the British Museum.

 

[Dyle]

I'm reading the Twitter thread, which they've added several "explanations" about their original tweet, and they still haven't explained HOW it's confusing or what the fuck they meant.

https://twitter.com/britishmuseum/status/907905876660539392


Yea, you listed a bunch of aliases of the thing from other languages. How is it confusing.

Edit, lol someone replied to that:

https://twitter.com/bishakali/status/907917132519927808

Yes they did it in a tweet, but will you remember any of it, did you not have the link to the tweet to go back and reread it? The answer is no, almost certainly not. Writing museum labels is a struggle, at times futile, between conveying information, ensuring that information is actually understood and not glossed over, and managing the precious attentions of your guests. Most guests spend between 15-30secs looking at any individual object, and of that time even less is spent reading labels that can actually provide context and make what they are seeing in an artwork or artifact relevant. While they did present a number of different names for the same deity in a single tweet, do you know why any of that matters? Did it convey anything of what Guanyin means for Buddhists in China, India, Japan, where her appearance and significance is subtly, but distinctly different? Label writing is an endlessly frustrating but important part of museum work and it is far more complicated than even her tweets are letting on.

 

[Aselith]

Too many *Asian* names is confusing?


What???

Yeah, too many names is confusing is the better way to say it since that's always true if you talk about a bunch of people with little context for the audience.

 

[Toa TAK]

Yes they did it in a tweet, but will you remember any of it, did you not have the link to the tweet to go back and reread it? The answer is no, almost certainly not. Writing museum labels is a struggle, at times futile, between conveying information, ensuring that information is actually understood and not glossed over, and managing the precious attentions of your guests. Most guests spend between 15-30secs looking at any individual object, and of that time even less is spent reading labels that can actually provide context and make what they are seeing in an artwork or artifact relevant. While they did present a number of different names for the same deity in a single tweet, do you know why any of that matters? Did it convey anything of what Guanyin means for Buddhists in China, India, Japan, where her appearance and significance is subtly, but distinctly different? Label writing is an endlessly frustrating but important part of museum work and it is far more complicated than even her tweets are letting on.

Maybe they should make separate labels to explain it.

Since it's a museum and all.

Most people who are only looking at each artifact and the accompanying information for 30 seconds at most probably aren't retaining the little information that's there to begin with anyways.

 

[Adaren]

Maybe they should make separate labels to explain it.

Since it's a museum and all.

From the OP:

We are not always able to reflect the complexity of different names for e.g. periods, rulers, gods in different languages and cultures on labels. This is explored in more depth through our public programme — audio guides, tours, lectures, exhibitions, research projects, school sessions etc.

 

[Aselith]

Maybe they should make separate labels to explain it.

Since it's a museum and all.

Most people who are only looking at each artifact and the accompanying information for 30 seconds at most probably aren't retaining the little information that's there to begin with anyways.

A separate label for what?

 

[Korey]

Yes they did it in a tweet, but will you remember any of it, did you not have the link to the tweet to go back and reread it? The answer is no, almost certainly not. Writing museum labels is a struggle, at times futile, between conveying information, ensuring that information is actually understood and not glossed over, and managing the precious attentions of your guests. Most guests spend between 15-30secs looking at any individual object, and of that time even less is spent reading labels that can actually provide context and make what they are seeing in an artwork or artifact relevant. While they did present a number of different names for the same deity in a single tweet, do you know why any of that matters? Did it convey anything of what Guanyin means for Buddhists in China, India, Japan, where her appearance and significance is subtly, but distinctly different? Label writing is an endlessly frustrating but important part of museum work and it is far more complicated than even her tweets are letting on.

I don't think anyone's expecting them to list 843 names for every exhibit piece.

What's weird is how the curator singled out Asian names as the thing that's confusing to people. Just say "it's a challenge to balance being concise and choosing which variants of a name to put on a label."

 

[wandering]

The problem also rises from the fact that Chinese names in particular are very difficult and unintuitive for English speakers to pronounce. Because you have to write labels in simple English, not Pinyin, you really don't have the space or attention span in your guests to explain how to pronounce words, which means that they will have a harder time keeping track of them and will more than likely give up before they fully digest the information on the label.

Add on the fact that there were the Qing and Ming dynasties, Qin, Xin, multiple Jin dynasties, multiple Song dynasties, multiple Zhou dynasties, and it's easy to see how it can get particularly confusing. Asian cultures are not unique in their naming complexity, but they are the most complex and challenging to your average museum goer, so singling them out as being particularly difficult is reasonable.

Asian = Chinese?

 

[Dyle]

Maybe they should make separate labels to explain it.

Since it's a museum and all.

Most people who are only looking at each artifact and the accompanying information for 30 seconds at most probably aren't retaining the little information that's there to begin with anyways.

Then you have created two labels when your guests only have the stamina to read one. You simply try to do your best to convey as much information as efficiently as possible. Shortcuts and omissions are always necessary

Also it's worth noting that Guanyin, since we're on the subject, is herself an extremely complex figure with wildly different interpretations that, when presented together are very confusing. Explaining that these two statues are of the same deity requires a dive into Buddhist lore that is most likely too long to justify as a sidenote to an exhibition, but is necessary for the two to make any sense together.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guanyin

I don't think anyone's expecting them to list 843 names for every exhibit piece.

What's weird is how the curator singled out Asian names as the thing that's confusing to people. Just say "it's a challenge to balance being concise and choosing which variants of a name to put on a label."

Chinese = Asian?

Japanese is much more easy for Westerners to pronounce and follow, largely because Romaji is simpler than Pinyin. Thai and Southeast Asian languages are difficult in museum settings too, but I don't know enough off hand to think of any examples. Also the woman who responded to that question is a curator of Asian art, she is specifically speaking about what she is an expert on. If a curator of African art answered the question he would not be wrong in saying that African languages and names are also equally difficult, or Native American, etc. She's talking about what she knows in language that is easy for the public to understand.

 

[BigDes]

Maybe you shouldn't have stolen so many Asian artifacts

Yeah well maybe the people who they belonged to should have defended them better

(Actual defense I have seen people use when this is brought up)

 

[Nickle]

Is there an anime character stronger than Madara Uchiha? And I'm referring to Rinne Tensei Madara Uchiha with the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan and Rinnegan doujutsus (with the rikidou paths ability) equipped with his Gunbai and control of the juubi and Gedou Mazou, a complete Susano'o, with Hashirama Senju's DNA implanted in his chest so he can perform Mokuton kekkei genkai and yin-yang release ninjutsu as well as being extremely skilled in taijutsu and bukijutsu.

 

[Toa TAK]

A separate label for what?

The explanation or exploration associated with the names that may prove too "confusing" for 16 year old high school students who are likely going over this in their world history classes at this point, anyways.

Like, how are Asian names anymore complex than anyone else's?

 

[BigDes]

Is there an anime character stronger than Madara Uchiha? And I'm referring to Rinne Tensei Madara Uchiha with the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan and Rinnegan doujutsus (with the rikidou paths ability) equipped with his Gunbai and control of the juubi and Gedou Mazou, a complete Susano'o, with Hashirama Senju's DNA implanted in his chest so he can perform Mokuton kekkei genkai and yin-yang release ninjutsu as well as being extremely skilled in taijutsu and bukijutsu.

Uh, have you even heard of a man called Vegeta?

Duh.

 

[Sarek]

How is it weird when she is the keeper of the Asia department answering a question about her own department? This issue feels like a serious case of very forced outrage, and most people in seem to only read the headline.

 

[wandering]

Then you have created two labels when your guests only have the stamina to read one. You simply try to do your best to convey as much information as efficiently as possible. Shortcuts and omissions are always necessary

Also it's worth noting that Guanyin, since we're on the subject, is herself an extremely complex figure with wildly different interpretations that, when presented together are very confusing. Explaining that these two statues are of the same deity requires a dive into Buddhist lore that is most likely too long to justify as a sidenote to an exhibition, but is necessary for the two to make any sense together.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guanyin

Bruh, that has to do with cultural context, not "Asian names"

Also lmao at your previous post's "China has similar sounding dynasty names"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_French_monarchs

 

[starchild excalibur]

What's weird is how the curator singled out Asian names as the thing that's confusing to people.

The tweets, which appear to have been written by the keeper of the Asia department...

You're right that they should have been more general. But the person who specifically responded to the question was speaking to the specifics of their department, which is understandably what caused the problem.

 

[ShaggsMagoo]

The explanation or exploration associated with the names that may prove too "confusing" for 16 year old high school students who are likely going over this in their world history classes at this point, anyways.

Like, how are Asian names anymore complex than anyone else's?

Probably familiarity. In my experience, it's easier for an English speaker to recognize and remember the name John than the name Jun. Just because we have heard the name John numerous times. I'm not a linguist though, I could be wrong.

 

[Toa TAK]

Then you have created two labels when your guests only have the stamina to read one. You simply try to do your best to convey as much information as efficiently as possible. Shortcuts and omissions are always necessary

Also it's worth noting that Guanyin, since we're on the subject, is herself an extremely complex figure with wildly different interpretations that, when presented together are very confusing. Explaining that these two statues are of the same deity requires a dive into Buddhist lore that is most likely too long to justify as a sidenote to an exhibition, but is necessary for the two to make any sense together.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guanyin

Then it would absolutely be worth it to make a video or an additional piece to explain it.

If there's any issue beyond the blunder of an answer, it's the actual guests visiting the museums who likely aren't absorbing most of what they're seeing to begin with. Museums should take the time to teach people these things since I doubt they're getting exposure to it anywhere else, high school kids or otherwise.

 

[Chaos2Frozen]

Is there an anime character stronger than Madara Uchiha? And I'm referring to Rinne Tensei Madara Uchiha with the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan and Rinnegan doujutsus (with the rikidou paths ability) equipped with his Gunbai and control of the juubi and Gedou Mazou, a complete Susano'o, with Hashirama Senju's DNA implanted in his chest so he can perform Mokuton kekkei genkai and yin-yang release ninjutsu as well as being extremely skilled in taijutsu and bukijutsu.

Saitama

 

[Aselith]

The explanation or exploration associated with the names that may prove too "confusing" for 16 year old high school students who are likely going over this in their world history classes at this point, anyways.

Like, how are Asian names anymore complex than anyone else's?

The problem isn't a problem of complexity but just lack of familiarity. And while that is certainly a failing of the audience you still have to work within reality.
Like talking about Liu Bei vs Liu Shan (Dynasty Warriors ho!) people may find them hard to keep track of due to lack of familiarity with similar names and stuff

I think part of the issue is that people have some trouble even sounding out names properly sometimes with more difficult constructions which certainly plays into a lack of being able to remember or connect them in your mind. Stuff like Xu Huang isn't terribly complex but it can be a challenge to figure out how to pronounce it properly even if that pronounciation is only in the mind.

(Sorry to keep using Dynasty Warriors characters but that was a place I knew I could find lots regionally Asian names to use for reference )

 

[Dyle]

I don't think anyone's expecting them to list 843 names for every exhibit piece.

What's weird is how the curator singled out Asian names as the thing that's confusing to people. Just say "it's a challenge to balance being concise and choosing which variants of a name to put on a label."

Asian = Chinese?

Bruh, that has to do with cultural context, not "Asian names"

Also lmao at your previous post's "China has repeated dynasty names"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_French_monarchs

Yes, but people in England know how to pronounce French names. Anyone can tell you that Louis XIV came after Louis XIII due to the simplified use of numbers and names that can be pronounced intuitively. Talking about Chinese dynasties requires bringing up more dates, which along with the names being less intuitive, muddies things and makes it more difficult for laymen to quickly grasp. Successfully conveying such information in the course of two paragraphs is much more complicated than you understand, because guests in a museum do not have a Wikipedia page open on their phones to reference. You have to write labels so that they can exist completely on their own as if someone walked in from the street with no knowledge of Chinese art or history, which is very very difficult

Then it would absolutely be worth it to make a video or an additional piece to explain it.

If there's any issue beyond the blunder of an answer, it's the actual guests visiting the museums who likely aren't absorbing most of what they're seeing to begin with. Museums should take the time to teach people these things since I doubt they're getting exposure to it anywhere else, high school kids or otherwise.

Videos are nice, but are more expensive, fill the gallery with potentially unwanted noise, and more than anything, take up more time that most guests will be unlikely to spend. Where I work, I struggle to give two hours tours because I can, and honestly want to, geek out all day telling every little detail about everything, but that's not what guests want and ultimately is not the most effective way of getting them to retain what they learn, because if you dump too much on people at once they will struggle to remember much of it.

 

[Dr.Acula]

Sounds like they're saying it's confusing using "too many names" of the same people in different languages which happen to be Asian languages because of cultural overlap.

It would be like saying there's a need to avoid too many romance language names because that could be confusing.

 

[VeeP]

How about, the British return the treasures and artifacts it "received" from other countries.

The British Empire literally invaded and killed, exploited countries, and took their artifacts and now put it on display. And not they can't even give these artifacts the type of respect they deserve because "too confusing". Fuck off.

 

[Tomohawk]

Im south asian and i hundred percent understand, since we can have some long ass names. Museums are like gateways to introduce people to history and if people tune out when they see foreign names it would be wise for the museum to try to make things more simple and hope it gets people interested enough to dig deeper. The fact that people tune out might say something about the visitors, but hopefully its just more unfamiliarity and less racism. As long as the lessons of history are imparted the names arent as important.

 

[F!ReW!Re]

Lol outrage at nothing once again.
If you have a Chinese statue of a Buddist goddess, would you really have to have all the names from all the different countries in Asia because they name her differently.

"Gyuianab, Chinese naming, approx 1452, this statue was found bla bla bla bla."
or
"Gyuianab, Chinese naming (known as asfdlhjkl in Japanese, uwyrwu in Japanese, ..., ... , ... , ... , ... , ... , ...,) approx 1452, this statue was found bla bla bla bla."

Isn't she just saying she needs to draw a line somewhere when using the second method?
Calm the fuck down.

 

[Lil'DigiOp]

Lets put it this way

How you gonna take the artifact and not accurately represent the culture? Foolish

 

[Pixieking]

Make bigger cards?

It's a museum, you are there to explain shit

This is both obvious, and not done more than you think. We went round The Louvre last year, and the amount of cards that were massive, but only had French text was pretty insane considering how famous a museum/gallery it is.

 

[Wulfric]

How about, the British return the treasures and artifacts it "received" from other countries.

The British Empire literally invaded and killed, exploited countries, and took their artifacts and now put it on display. And not they can't even give these artifacts the type of respect they deserve because "too confusing". Fuck off.

That would involve finding an institution with the skill and resources to house these new objects. It's on the receiving institution to process the receipt of new materials. That's not cheap at all when you are dealing with international borders and shipping.

And where do you get the idea that they aren't respecting their artifacts? There's a finite amount of space in the galleries and you need to be able to communicate to the broadest amount of people. Dyle has already attested to this. I'm sure the curators can talk all day about their work, but you need to be concise when it comes to public facing materials (placards, videos, audio guides). You only have a museum guest's attention for so long.

 

[ShdwDrake]

Maybe they should make separate labels to explain it.

Since it's a museum and all.

Most people who are only looking at each artifact and the accompanying information for 30 seconds at most probably aren't retaining the little information that's there to begin with anyways.

So make people no wanna go to the museum? Welp close the museum.

 

[Slayven]

Is there a chinese musuem that just has Charlemagne, King Henry, King Richard, and Prince Charles just under one name?

 

[RinsFury]

How about, the British return the treasures and artifacts it "received" from other countries.

The British Empire literally invaded and killed, exploited countries, and took their artifacts and now put it on display. And not they can't even give these artifacts the type of respect they deserve because "too confusing". Fuck off.

I've always felt this way about western museums displaying plunder from other countries.