The Guardian: Street Fighter V: victory and diversity in the eSports world final

It was really exciting even I watched it and I can't remember the last SF tourney I watched. Granted I was mainly tuned in to see the MvC trailer that was promised but there is no question the excitement kept me watching continually rather than just checking in every so often.
 
Call it moving goalposts for some (not me as I've been consistent on it since jump street), but I think a lot of people who like the game despite its significant issues see it as a missed opportunity.

Think of what would happen if they didn't botch the launch. Would be significantly bigger, no? Capcom can't have it both ways in terms of growing their base or profile speedily in this demo and providing a subpar package as a whole. Mutually exclusive goals.

The gameplay is good. *The packaging is not.* It's not a death blow but it makes a difference.

As is, I and other players will get a lot out of it but plenty of others won't. Game and community will be fine but I think you're not seeing the entire picture if you don't see this as a missed opportunity.

Not everything is pure success or bomba; sometimes things are just somewhat disappointing for publishers or players alike. Everyone needs to take their claims down to 4/10, oy.

More on topic: solid results but hope they have a plan to grow it. Was a pretty good watch too.

Watch Marvel do numbers if Papa Mickey forces them to get their shit together, have a real plan/package and execute supremely at launch.
 
Really you think there is 800k copies on shelves plus there is many unranked people last time i checked to 999999.

Well, first I'd ask how you even check that. The game doesn't have sort options for the bottom of the leaderboard and there doesn't seem to be a web leaderboard.

The ~600k number I posited came from me encountering a player with 10LP when I started my PC account a couple of months ago. I remember feeling like that rank being only that number was a bad sign for sales. Around the same time, a thread on NeoGAF was posted about how few copies the game had sold between April and September both digitally and physical.
 
I could live to 100 and ill never understand how games like League of Legends and DOTA2 became bigger spectator games than Street Figbter.

Are you bloody kidding me?

These games are way bigger, both casuals and hardcore gamers enjoy it, its fun, require less technical nouns (you have 4 abilities), can run one any computer, most of my friends and family play it and they don't like games, there is a healthy amount of depth to 100+ champs, etc

I could go on, but if you chose to be willfully obtuse and ignorant, then please don't come near Moba threads and moan.
 
I could live to 100 and ill never understand how games like League of Legends and DOTA2 became bigger spectator games than Street Figbter.
I feel like this is akin to pondering why a simple sport like soccer is more popular worldwide than something with more complexity like baseball or football.

It's pretty self-evident. There's a low barrier for casual entry, meaning there's a sizable fanbase made of current or ex-participants. To complement that, higher level play is fairly understandable to the average Joe with a pretty little amount of investment.
 
I feel like this is akin to pondering why a simple sport like soccer is more popular worldwide than something with more complexity like baseball or football.

It's pretty self-evident. There's a low barrier for casual entry, meaning there's a sizable fanbase made of current or ex-participants. To complement that, higher level play is fairly understandable to the average Joe with a pretty little amount of investment.
Except I'd argue that Street Fighter is the Football in this analogy and we live in the horrific alternate timeline where Handegg is a global sport. You can't get a lower barrier to entry than "hit them more than they hit you".
Are you bloody kidding me?

These games are way bigger, both casuals and hardcore gamers enjoy it, its fun, require less technical nouns (you have 4 abilities), can run one any computer, most of my friends and family play it and they don't like games, there is a healthy amount of depth to 100+ champs, etc

I could go on, but if you chose to be willfully obtuse and ignorant, then please don't come near Moba threads and moan.
You really should cool your outrage for a second and read what I actually wrote. I'm not saying that anyone who likes MOBAs is a knuckle-dragging neanderthal (although I am of the opinion that team based competitive multiplayer is the root of all society's woes), just that I think they make for a terrible spectator experience especially going in blind.
 
Well, first I'd ask how you even check that. The game doesn't have sort options for the bottom of the leaderboard and there doesn't seem to be a web leaderboard.

The ~600k number I posited came from me encountering a player with 10LP when I started my PC account a couple of months ago. I remember feeling like that rank being only that number was a bad sign for sales. Around the same time, a thread on NeoGAF was posted about how few copies the game had sold between April and September both digitally and physical.

Keep on going down below 0 lp then you will see lots of people ranked 999999 repeating until you get sick of it and go out lol.
 
Interesting part about the whole age thing. I've heard interviews with professional Starcraft and Dota players mentioning physically feeling like they can't keep up once they're in their late 20s. Meanwhile, many of the FGC's heaviest hitters are well into their 30s.

I don't know enough about starcraft to comment, but I would definitely say fighters are more demanding in terms of execution/reaction times than Dota, which makes it all the more perplexing to me.
It's more anticipation than reaction when you played fighting games nearly 20 years. Daigo once said he tries to filter his opponents' playstyles into types.
 
Good article. I hope numbers and popularity improves even more next year, when popular and stalwart characters like Akuma, Sagat, "Blanka...lol" make a return.


Yeah Blanka...if any character is a casual bringer...it's the green jungled Brazilian...
 
Ricki and nuckledu at the grand finals felt so perfect to me but I still can't believe infiltration flopped like that. 😧 He got lazy.
 
You really should cool your outrage for a second and read what I actually wrote. I'm not saying that anyone who likes MOBAs is a knuckle-dragging neanderthal (although I am of the opinion that team based competitive multiplayer is the root of all society's woes), just that I think they make for a terrible spectator experience especially going in blind.

Sorry, got emotional all of the sudden (doesn't help that everyone here on GAF is expert on MOBA even though few of them have played it.

Its a great spectator sport. The fact that hundreds of millions of people play it, make it more familiar and familiarity brings understanding to enjoy high-level technical and strategic plays.

Fighting games are niche, whether people ignore it or not is up to them. Its not flashy and it revolves around mashing buttons on situations people don't know unless you play to an high level. MOBAs can be relatable. I have learned so much by just watching (and I am still shite) on another hand, I can never relate to Fighting games pros, because I cannot pull off those moves.
 
Except I'd argue that Street Fighter is the Football in this analogy and we live in the horrific alternate timeline where Handegg is a global sport. You can't get a lower barrier to entry than "hit them more than they hit you".
I mean that's a reductive view of MOBAs, but that still points to my soccer analogy. "Kick the ball in the net more than they kick it in yours." The rulebook for FIFA is like 1/3-1/2 the size of the NFLs, and there's a reason why soccer is popular worldwide, when football is way more complicated in terms of rulesets and way higher in terms of entry.
 
Wow, are we downplaying it already? She fucking crushed Kazunoko 3-0 in the losers final, made amazing comeback all tournament and went for the risky stuff when litterally hundreds of thousands were on the line. Had a good day...
I guess it was too hard to go beyond the first sentence. I don't blame you.
 
I mean that's a reductive view of MOBAs, but that still points to my soccer analogy. "Kick the ball in the net more than they kick it in yours." The rulebook for FIFA is like 1/3-1/2 the size of the NFLs, and there's a reason why soccer is popular worldwide, when football is way more complicated in terms of rulesets and way higher in terms of entry.

I don't know if the ruleset analogy is great here.

The barrier of entry is a bit lower for mobas but the knowledge wall of arcane and arbitrary things to know about the game to get anywhere is just as big as in fighting games. Though unlike in say, SF5, the matchmaking also has a much bigger pool of complete beginners.

In the end, all e-sports are super complicated, even stuff like CS. Which is why most people who watch, especially regularly, have at least some knowledge of what is going on. And why the popular e-sports to watch are usually also fairly popular games.
 
Because more people play those games.

Also they don't make a big enough deal of America winning Capcom Cup. And not only did America win it but it was an all American Grand Finals.

The rest of the world has to HOLD DAT L!!!!

Oh shit, for real? Maybe I should've watched it. Usually someone Japanese or Korean be winning the biggest tournaments lately.
 
Damn dude that's a good story. I like how Rashid is the hero of the story and it's done organically.
Rashid easily had the best arc of the SFV story. I really hope Capcom continues to ride that high & put him in MvCI as the SFV rep.

As for Ricki, while I was rooting for NuckleDu, I wouldn't have minded her winning. Ricki worked her ass off to get where she got in the Capcom Cup & I look forward to seeing her improve further in Season 2.
 
Nah, SFIV music has always been completely forgettable/garbage. People only remember indestructable and training stage. Worst of the series.

Ninja, you fucking sleep. Them catchy ass character themes. That fucking"Moments in Love" with Dan, the tranquility of Sakura, the intensity of "Crumbling Laboratory", that shit is about to go down shit with Ryu vs Gouken. This dude here.
 
Oh shit, for real? Maybe I should've watched it. Usually someone Japanese or Korean be winning the biggest tournaments lately.

Yeah Japan is having a rough year... EVO champ is Korean... Capcom Cup champ is American. The same just happened for Tekken 7... the EVO champ and now Iron Fist champ is a Korean player as well.
 
Sorry but whoooo caaaaares...I don't!

I don't care about pro players. I don't care about pro tournaments. I just want to enjoy the game I paid $60 for and the $30 or whatever season pass I coughed up a year ago. And I simply have not enjoyed my experience with the game whatsoever.

I think Capcom pandering to the tournament scene has contributed to this game's lukewarm reception. I understand that's a very import crowd to cater to, but not at the expense of the "casual" player...

You clearly care enough to post. Well done for adding nothing to this discussion.

Dunno, MrCarter. There are a lot of people who feel like Barkley's Justice, and as we enter season two, it would be unwise for capcom to overlook them.

The division between 'traditional' gamers and 'Esports' folk is of great concern to me professionally and personally.

I don't get it.

Street Fighter is the one game that has roots in traditional game history. Many 'core' gamers played it in their arcades, or their Sega Genesis, Super Nintendoes, Laundry mats, or local pizza shops. If there's one game that crosses over the generational, cultural, and technological divides, it's Street Fighter, right? Even Madden or any long- running sports game comes with the shackles of jock-culture or understanding material that, for a long time, was counter-culture to most gamers.

Street Fighter was one of the games that, regardless your gaming tastes, you probably owned. It took me a while to understand, but I totally get why the audience that doesn't give a shit about tourneys is so angry at the lack of an arcade mode. Or launching with a package that completely misunderstood the bulk of the game's purchasing audience.

There was a miscalculation, but Capcom is course-correcting in the best way that a giant corporation can.

My concern is that the spectator audience for this game should be much larger.

Of the esports, it seems the easiest to follow. It has history with the gaming audience.

This isn't about how many sold or who is playing the game. I'm wondering why the gaming audience doesn't follow SF like regular people watch football or basketball.

These are the things I try to tackle.
 
Yeah Japan is having a rough year... EVO champ is Korean... Capcom Cup champ is American. The same just happened for Tekken 7... the EVO champ and now Iron Fist champ is a Korean player as well.
Japan has a real young talent problem. There are a few, but they don't have a NuckleDu. Like even Eita is 28 or something and he's sometimes treated liked a newcomer.
 
I don't know why anybody would play ranked and be switching characters constantly without even being able to counter pick. There's no point.
I always figured that the whole point of SFV's character select thing was to force people to pick a main. I can't see any other reason for that implantation.
 
I always figured that the whole point of SFV's character select thing was to force people to pick a main. I can't see any other reason for that implantation.
No, the question is why you even need a character select screen if you don't know what your opponent is going to pick anyway (like SF4 before you had two Ultras). It saves a lot of time this way.
 
I always figured that the whole point of SFV's character select thing was to force people to pick a main. I can't see any other reason for that implantation.

In theory it would also allow for better match-making, since the server can match you up based on your performance with the character you've selected, instead of your overall performance. But I don't think that SFV actually does that.
 
the benefit of having character switch after every match is allowing you to achieve maximum tilt by switching character every time you lose and then getting angrier and angrier when you don't win.
 
No, the question is why you even need a character select screen if you don't know what your opponent is going to pick anyway (like SF4 before you had two Ultras). It saves a lot of time this way.
No. If you just want hop online to experiment with a few characters it was way easier to do so in SFIV for example. The way SFV has it set up is counter intuitive.

It only saves you time if you have a main and are set on grinding with that main.
 
Changing your character in Battle Settings takes less time now than loading in and out of a character select screen would. It's literally 5 seconds.
 
No, the question is why you even need a character select screen if you don't know what your opponent is going to pick anyway (like SF4 before you had two Ultras). It saves a lot of time this way.
Some people appreciate being able to change character on a whim and there's basically no reason not to let them.
 
Changing your character in Battle Settings takes less time now than loading in and out of a character select screen would. It's literally 5 seconds.

Not to mention that you don't ever have to sit around for a minute or so, waiting for your opponent to take their sweet time on the stage (if they hosted) and character select screens.
 
Dunno, MrCarter. There are a lot of people who feel like Barkley's Justice, and as we enter season two, it would be unwise for capcom to overlook them.

The division between 'traditional' gamers and 'Esports' folk is of great concern to me professionally and personally.

I don't get it.

Street Fighter is the one game that has roots in traditional game history. Many 'core' gamers played it in their arcades, or their Sega Genesis, Super Nintendoes, Laundry mats, or local pizza shops. If there's one game that crosses over the generational, cultural, and technological divides, it's Street Fighter, right? Even Madden or any long- running sports game comes with the shackles of jock-culture or understanding material that, for a long time, was counter-culture to most gamers.

Street Fighter was one of the games that, regardless your gaming tastes, you probably owned. It took me a while to understand, but I totally get why the audience that doesn't give a shit about tourneys is so angry at the lack of an arcade mode. Or launching with a package that completely misunderstood the bulk of the game's purchasing audience.

There was a miscalculation, but Capcom is course-correcting in the best way that a giant corporation can.

My concern is that the spectator audience for this game should be much larger.

Of the esports, it seems the easiest to follow. It has history with the gaming audience.

This isn't about how many sold or who is playing the game. I'm wondering why the gaming audience doesn't follow SF like regular people watch football or basketball.

These are the things I try to tackle.

Considering their avenue into e-sports as well as the increased amount of people that have been involved and have watched SFV since SFIV I don't think it's too early to say it's been successful - which is what the main point of this thread is. The sheer passion and dedication from these "hardcore" players from diverse backgrounds is what is being celebrated, and it should be, because they have worked for years to get there.

People who blame the "tournament scene" are simply trying to find something to shit on because they didn't get the attention they allegedly deserve but what they don't realise is that the focus should have been on both the core and casual player. People will keep on playing the game regardless however I do hope they put something together for casuals soon.
 
Of the esports, it seems the easiest to follow. It has history with the gaming audience.

This isn't about how many sold or who is playing the game. I'm wondering why the gaming audience doesn't follow SF like regular people watch football or basketball.

These are the things I try to tackle.

even if it is easy to follow(a health bar) it's not exciting unless I understand the skill and strategy involved. personally I like team games and long matches. short game length is not a positive to me.
 
Good article. I hope numbers and popularity improves even more next year, when popular and stalwart characters like Akuma, Sagat, "Blanka...lol" make a return.


Yeah Blanka...if any character is a casual bringer...it's the green jungled Brazilian...

Other than Akuma all the characters in season 2 are new to Street Fighter, if they're being honest us, that is.

Yeah Japan is having a rough year... EVO champ is Korean... Capcom Cup champ is American. The same just happened for Tekken 7... the EVO champ and now Iron Fist champ is a Korean player as well.

Tekken was always a Korea game though, losing SF is something else. This was supposed to be their forte.
 
even if it is easy to follow(a health bar) it's not exciting unless I understand the skill and strategy involved. personally I like team games and long matches. short game length is not a positive to me.

for the past 5 years, i've been talking to friends about a 'what if' scenario where SF is team-play only at tourneys. Something like Korea's CRASH 3v3 format. It adds a whole new element of strategy. You could steal the concept of 'picks and bans' from MOBAS, and even copy traditional baseball where you can alter your starting line-up or rotate out depending on the situation.

I'd go so far as having the year of tourneys be scouting grounds for points and teams, where at the top of the season, like every sport, you can even have a player draft.

Basically, I'd shake-up SF in a major way. Teams offer a sense of regional pride or spectator ownership. There's camaraderie, and great drama. Use 1v1 games throughout the year as players work to get picked up by teams. The big 'premiere' events are team-based only.

Those are my suggestions. Then again, I"m the insane dude that wants Capcom to have a career mode that allows you to play in the FGC working your way up to sponsored player and fighting sim a.i versions of the top players. Update stats regularly. FGC Player profiles, rivalries, mains, and info in game. All leading towards Capcom Cup.

Ultrachen does commentary. Replay analysis. etc. Let ESPN pay for some to so it can be an ESPN production with ESPN graphics everywhere.

And yes, casuals still get their Arcade mode.

But I'm insane and very much in the minority.
 
Rashid easily had the best arc of the SFV story. I really hope Capcom continues to ride that high & put him in MvCI as the SFV rep.

As for Ricki, while I was rooting for NuckleDu, I wouldn't have minded her winning. Ricki worked her ass off to get where she got in the Capcom Cup & I look forward to seeing her improve further in Season 2.

He was a rep for that FF cross over so I could definitely see him in Marvel.
 
Damn dude that's a good story. I like how Rashid is the hero of the story and it's done organically.

Thanks for saying that! I too liked how Rashid was first introduced in the story and then slowly becomes the hero. It really surprised and sort of touched me when John Takeuchi said that he started playing Rashid purely because of the story, because he was this character who was so utterly loyal to his friend. Good stuff!

And this is why representation matters.

You feel like part of the club, and you see people with different backgrounds as less of an "other".

At some point it won't matter, hopefully, because fiction will be better in this way by default. But for the time being, characters like Rashid represent something important, even if all Capcom's primary intent was, "let's make a cool character. How about wind powers?"

I super hope you are right! When I was young, I was so sure this is how we would advance. Things recently feel dire, but it's mostly likely me realizing that this "better time" isn't actually going to happen in my own lifetime, or at least to the extent I hoped.

I would looooove to know how Capcom comes up with new characters. I imagine two Wheel of Fortune-like devices; one of non-sequitor ideas, the other of skin colours - except, you know, green is on that wheel.
 
Top 32 was the bomb. Was on the edge of my seat for a lot of it.

Despite not playing the game, I love watching it being played at a high level.
 
Are you bloody kidding me?

These games are way bigger, both casuals and hardcore gamers enjoy it, its fun, require less technical nouns (you have 4 abilities), can run one any computer, most of my friends and family play it and they don't like games, there is a healthy amount of depth to 100+ champs, etc

I could go on, but if you chose to be willfully obtuse and ignorant, then please don't come near Moba threads and moan.

this isnt a moba thread tho
 
Except I'd argue that Street Fighter is the Football in this analogy and we live in the horrific alternate timeline where Handegg is a global sport. You can't get a lower barrier to entry than "hit them more than they hit you".

More like MOBAs are Football and Street Fighter is UFC/Boxing. Team sports will always be more popular , regardless if the 1v1 sport is easier to understand.

But there is always something about that 1v1 aspect , maybe if everything went right with SFV and it was handled better by a better management it could achieve that. eSports in general need to be more mainstream for something like FGs to pick up. Right now it is still very much relegated to the same audience that buys their game.

Traditional sports on the other hand is followed by tons of the people who dont actively "play" that sport. And right now Dota and League have a much bigger player base than SF. Especially when countries like China which have HUGE Moba playerbase dont really play Fighting games all that much. F2P is a major thing over there.
 
Top Bottom