ShadowSoldier89
Member
Why would they be limited on that? Mass Effect 3 handled two characters hooking up that were also options for the MC.
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The Kiseki / Trails (of the Sky/Zero/Ao/Sen/Etc) Community Thread: SPOILERTAGS OR DIE
- Thread starter Bebpo
- Start date
Why would they be limited on that? Mass Effect 3 handled two characters hooking up that were also options for the MC.
Just the option to romance someone severely hampers his or her character. Imagine if Kloe was a romance option for Joshua,
It's why Emma will be a 50 years old single lady in Kiseki 26 because otherwise people who romanced her would get mad.
Waifu stuff pretty much destroys/ruins chara interactions most of the time. See also modern Persona, which suffers from the same problem.
you wouldn't get her getting over him, her having a heart-to-hearth talk with Estelle, her getting shipped with Letcher in The 3rd. None of these scenes would have happened because the writers wouldn't be able to, since they would need to consider all the people who romanced her back in FC.
It's why Emma will be a 50 years old single lady in Kiseki 26 because otherwise people who romanced her would get mad.
Waifu stuff pretty much destroys/ruins chara interactions most of the time. See also modern Persona, which suffers from the same problem.
ShadowSoldier89
Member
you are asking for 1 specific type of character interaction ignoring the other gained from having the system
These are mutually exclusive, but having romance options doesn't limit you on having heart-to-heart moments, it just may force the hand some on the effect of them. Meanwhile it opens options on how characters interact within the confines of romantic options.
I would never take romance choice in Trails in the Sky as thats not the story it was telling, likewise I'm just fine with what was done in CS. However CS2 suffered more by having Rean far too central to each character, not because of being able to choose a romance as the guys suffered from the same thing.
These are mutually exclusive, but having romance options doesn't limit you on having heart-to-heart moments, it just may force the hand some on the effect of them. Meanwhile it opens options on how characters interact within the confines of romantic options.
I would never take romance choice in Trails in the Sky as thats not the story it was telling, likewise I'm just fine with what was done in CS. However CS2 suffered more by having Rean far too central to each character, not because of being able to choose a romance as the guys suffered from the same thing.
Hard to disagree here.
A character feels pretty shallow if a block of their development is reserved for optional anything. I haven't played the ME games, but I was under the impression they thrived on player choice, which isn't exactly a staple of the Trails games. You can't pick Rean's gender, either. They're not limited per se, but I'm not wholly confident the writers would even be able to handle that kind of scenario properly anyway, (ie. consistency). Either way, I find that a character who has a very, focused and developed relationship with another character or two is much more interesting than a character who has his or her development spread thin with optional what-if scenarios with many other characters.
Though if you have to ask, Rean totally should've been female.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
"spoilertags or die" huh?
As a rule, I tend to agree that *insert game here* may have been more interesting with a female protagonist since they're not done as often. But I think Rean is an exception for me? CS1/2 spoilers below:
If there's one thing I really like about Rean, it's that he's actually quite an emotional person, and this isn't really done as much with male characters compared to female ones. Sure, they might be upset in a quiet way, but normally they remain fairly stoic as an EMOTIONAL PILLAR for other characters to play off of.
Rean just, straight up, breaks down in front of Towa at the end of CS2. He's an emotional mess, and I don't think it would work quite as well if it was yet another female character in that situation.
The bonding events can feel a bit wish fulfillmenty, male light novel MCish, sure, but I can easily see a scenario in which a female Rean is just "OH SENPAI~" with all the dudes instead, so I'm not sure just changing the gender is necessarily an improvement in that regard.
Rean just, straight up, breaks down in front of Towa at the end of CS2. He's an emotional mess, and I don't think it would work quite as well if it was yet another female character in that situation.
The bonding events can feel a bit wish fulfillmenty, male light novel MCish, sure, but I can easily see a scenario in which a female Rean is just "OH SENPAI~" with all the dudes instead, so I'm not sure just changing the gender is necessarily an improvement in that regard.
I agree with the fixed relationships thing though. This is one reason why I think in CS2
__Crow__
I'm hovering around that weird boundary between "I like the development near the end of the game with Rean" and "I really don't care about Rean" thanks to getting soured on him so early in CS2, so it's hard for me to agree or disagree. What a conundrum.
The gender change suggestion was just a joke, though. But the direction they took with Lloyd and Rean certainly isn't inspiring much confidence from me for the MC of the Calvard arc. Strange since Kevin is pretty damn wonderful based on his involvement so far in SC. Bonus points for the Kansai dialect.
It would never happen, regardless of the existence of the bond system. Romance between party members is exceptionally rare in JRPGs because the norm is to ship tease every girl with the male protagonist, even if there's a lack of dedicated romance system. Nearly every RPG is guilty of this. Final Fantasy, Chrono Trigger, all of the Persona games, the Tales game, etc. If you were to remove the bond system entirely, every girl would still be "reserved" for Rean, and they'd add shipteasing moments to the main narrative instead of having a romance system. This is why it's pointless to take aim at the bond system; take aim at the needless pandering directed towards the player, and a desire to adhere to the status quo, instead of a system that's completely ancillary in nature.
Also, giving scenes between characters and having them be romantic partners to the main protagonist are things that could absolutely happen at the same time. Persona 5 is a game that is pretty shameful when it comes to romancing women, but the game still had scenes between characters unrelated to the protagonist. I realize i'm strengthening parts of your argument, but there was nothing stopping CS from having moment between say, Emma and Machias, bonding over their studying. They simply didn't do it, and that's absolutely on them for making CS so Rean centric. The romance aspect, which took up an extremely minor section of the bond system did not get in the way of that.
This is patently untrue, and another blatant example of you not being remotely fair to Cold Steel. Establishing characters is something CS actually did really well, arguably even moreso than FC/SC. Each of the characters have distinct backgrounds, established relationships, and clear, discernible wants. This is done throughout the story, instead of it being dumped on you unceremoniously through exposition texts. The game let's you further learn about each of the character's circumstances through incidental dialogue in their respective home towns. Here's a breakdown
The irony is that you mention Emma as a good example of a character with solid establishment, yet she her lack of character establishment is direct plot point in the 2nd game.
I really like Jusis, but I don't think he's anywhere close to significantly outshining the rest of the cast like you're implying. Nor do I think he's the only who received down-to-earth to development, given how Alisa, Machias and especially Ellitot have pretty natural character development. And you're not the only one who wished they did bond events that focused on 2 characters seperate from Rean; they could have come up with some truly exceptional set pieces, FFIX style. That said, I don't think Rean's bond scenes are that generic. Sure, they veer towards him playing therapist, but for the most part they're natural conversations. The best of them are actually quite entertaining.
I wouldn't say they're much, much, more endearing, but the writing on them is undeniably fantastic and general greater than that of CS. It's just completely atypical from your standard JRPG, wherein they feel extremely natural as characters, but also as endearing as cartoon characters. No other game does that for me.
Why? He was already a major protagonist in 2 games. Having him take a step back in CS is more than fine, especially since he already has a huge presence in CS/CS2 as well. (His scenes are extremely memorable). I don't want him to overshadow characters, Ace Attorney 4 style.
No it's fine, because they do a good enough job of establishing that Rean's Devil Trigger makes him really fucking strong/fast and gives him a huge multiplicative boost to his power (see Rean's bond scene with Sara). The idea that Rean could hold his own against Bleublanc (someone who isn't even physically powerful) and Duvalie (the queen of all jobbers) isn't close to being a stretch. Nor is the fact that he outsped the Jaeger guys, considering they're still "normal" humans compared to his supernatural power boost. Man, I can't believe i'm having dorky power level discussions.
It literally wouldn't work if it were anyone else, since Alfin acted his sister's proxy, setting the record straight for Rean on her behalf. Personally, I loved every minute of the Intermission and felt it was one of CS's best sequences. They did a great job of having Rean finally feel confidant in himself.
CS could have absolutely benefited from more perspective shifts. This is something FC/SC clearly outshines CS in, since those perspective shifts do a great job of making the universe feel bigger.
I don't find it as nearly as rewarding as in CS so I haven't bothered.
***
In brighter news, I got farther in SC and Nier. Hell yea
ShadowSoldier89
Member
my biggest problem with the bond system is that its impossible to see them all in a single playthrough. Too much characterization completely lost. I've heard Millium has surprisingly excellent Bond scenes in CS2, but I wouldnt know.
For the PC release, Ill be looking for (or if it doesnt happen I'll work on it myself) a mod to get max bonding points on initial playthrough.
For CS2, I modded my PS3 save so my buddy could import it and playthrough on NG+ his first go around, while still using his import from CS1 for choices. I feel like he got to have a better experience of CS2 than I did.
For the PC release, Ill be looking for (or if it doesnt happen I'll work on it myself) a mod to get max bonding points on initial playthrough.
For CS2, I modded my PS3 save so my buddy could import it and playthrough on NG+ his first go around, while still using his import from CS1 for choices. I feel like he got to have a better experience of CS2 than I did.
Oh, do we really, now...? I am very certain that his real time to shine will be in CS3.
I mean in the sense of where he came from (Nord), his individual family members (has a full set) and his desires
He's like to most "open" character in the game, lol.
Just reload your save like I did.
He's like to most "open" character in the game, lol.
Just reload your save like I did.
ShadowSoldier89
Member
cant reload enough to see all of the later ones without having enough points for each character. True that wouldve let me see the majority, but thats obnoxious.
On the contrary, removing the bond system would actually open up room for them to write scenes that don't involve Rean. Of course, if they're so insistent on hammering in the fact that the Cold Steel games are about Rean and not Class VII, then sure, I could see that happening, in which case I would've dropped the games off at GameStop for a few bucks. I don't see how it's pointless to blame the bond system though; it's essentially the by-product of wanting to personalize the event scenes for the player through Rean. But to be fair, the whole bond system started in the Crossbell games, so I should be directing my complaints towards them, if anything.
But really, it's not a problem of whether it'll happen or not; the problem is that the fact it exists is limiting in nature in regards to the writing. This extends to the same issue you had with the pandering images in Sky, except, well, I have to deal with the pointless romantic tidbits in-game which I feel, if I were writer, would limit the potential directions I could take a character.
I was under the assumption we're talking about both games combined, not just CS1. Yes, they were established in CS1, but they didn't seem to do much with them in the second. I put Jusis on a pedestal because he has a lot of going on in the second game, which resonated with me despite all the focus Rean was getting. It's not like I was fully sold on him in the first game, either. But him choosing to cuff his own father for his crimes was great. The Rufus reveal at the end of CS2 was icing on the cake. It makes me want to know how he'll deal with these things in the future, how his relationship with his brother and Millium will change, and other things. Him rising to the position of the Duke of the Kreuzan Province is just awesome. That's why he's my most anticipated character in CS3, aside from the Crossbell and Liberl folks.
But maybe I am being unfair to the characters since I'm working on knowledge from a couple years ago. Replaying the games might change my opinions on most of them, probably not for Rean though.
I guess. I don't think it'd be that much of a stretch to see him more considering how much of a busybody he was in Liberl.
Yeah, we're not going to agree here. I personally think it's still a terrible scene, and that isn't going to change.
Crossbell didn't really have the full-fledged bond system we saw in Cold Steel.
It was more like "earning points towards your favorite characters by buying them stuff" like in old VNs.
There were a few scenes where you had to pick a single character and do that event with only them, but it was a pretty rare occurrence.
It was more like "earning points towards your favorite characters by buying them stuff" like in old VNs.
There were a few scenes where you had to pick a single character and do that event with only them, but it was a pretty rare occurrence.
Maybe. Bond scenes are super trivial to create and implement. There's barely any strain on the resources, and it really comes down to just writing these fun little "out of the way" scenarios for a given character. Hell, there's nothing stopping them from having non-Rean interactions using that exact same model! (wouldn't that be swell). There's an even easier way of fixing your problem without cutting the bond system though. Just have characters interact without Rean. A good example is during Nord when Rean and Alisa have their heart to heart. Switching the perspective to Jusis and Emma and having them build on their relationship would be nice.
Tell me exactly how bond events are limiting for characterization when the focus is on incidental events at best? The meat of the character development was always going to happen in the main narrative. Or hell, the best bond events are sometimes even follow ups on the character development that happens in the main narrative.
If we're talking about CS2 then yes it's another thing entirely, because Class VII (with Alisa in particular) got shafted pretty hard in the character moments (you were right Scrooge). It's pretty apparent after going through SC, which is loaded with moments where the entire cast gets focus. This is because of the system (forced characters) + the generally superior character unique dialogue. On that note I agree completely.
I think you might shortselling CS1 a tad. There's a lot of genuinely good character moments here.
True, but I mean from a meta sense. A brand new subseries should let the new protagonists take center stage. This is why Ace Attorney 4 was so disappointing to many, since Phoenix basically overshadowed the game's main protagonist (Apollo).
Though ideally, CS3 will deliver on Olivier goodness.
Well yeah, the entire point was that there needed to be more non-Rean interactions and less Rean involvement, where it makes sense. Giving the MC the "handy-man" role never really sits well with me in any kind of narrative.
Well, for one thing, bond events are the only times you get to see mingling between different parties on a personal level. In CS1/2's, this is typically going to be Rean and character x, with maybe the occasional third party like Millium popping up. So clearly Rean's going to build some rapport with every character given that the bond events will always involve him. This in turns adds to his characterization, to the other character's characterization, and the characterization of that dynamic between the two. But what about like Jusis and Fie? Or Machias and Laura? Or Alisa and Elliot? Outside of the little snippets of their time together when they're grouped up for the school excursions and occasional exchanges throughout the game, there isn't really much I can say about their characterization besides being classmates in the same class and the initial problems they had with each other (assuming they even had one).
Compare it to a typical high school class, for example. It's normal for people to group together for various activities and be on good terms, but there will always be individuals in that group who will gravitate to the people they're closer with in the same group. I think that's just a normal, but natural instinct for people. While I do see some of that in Class VII, it doesn't really feel like it's there. Sure, Laura/Fie, Fie/Emma, Alisa/Laura, Elliot/Gaius, Jusis/Machias, Jusis/Millium, and a couple others exist, but their characterization is lacking since there isn't any focus on them. This is what the bond events should've been utilized for. I'm not saying they should cut down on Rean development, so they just need to strike the right balance given development costs and whatever. You could argue that the characterization happens off-screen and you should assume it is, but I don't think that's the kind of storytelling that contributes to a colorful cast of characters in a world as big as Trails.
I mean, look at Agate and Tita. If their development was as shallow as the interpersonal relationships in Class VII, I would've just wrote them off as just a bracer that happened to protect the girl when she was younger and now they're teaming up for reasons in Cold Steel 3! But we obviously know their relationship isn't that simple.
I think very trivial exchanges between two characters (not Rean) when given focus can add a lot to characterization. This is where bond events would shine best, I feel. A fun example from the Cold Steel cast, actually, is Jusis and Alisa. I remember there were a few moments where he would mess with her and those were pretty funny. He definitely had a better handle on her than Rean did, to say the least. Jusis making fun of Rean and Alisa after their chat in Nord was also another notable example.
clay_ghost
Member
For all we know Rean will die in CS3
So that the others can move on.
to join crow
And chapter 4 done. I'm a real sucker for family relationships that are expanded on in any capacity and
Definitely can see why Cassius took it hard when the tragedy happened.
With this and the second season of Uchouten Kazoku over, I think I've got my fill of familial love/drama for the rest of the year!
Good stuff. And the voice acting really adds to the experience. Hearing Estelle's voice crack is bad for the heart, especially when she gets emotional.
the dream with Lena and Cassius hit me hard like a brick.
With this and the second season of Uchouten Kazoku over, I think I've got my fill of familial love/drama for the rest of the year!
Good stuff. And the voice acting really adds to the experience. Hearing Estelle's voice crack is bad for the heart, especially when she gets emotional.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
Maybe if their only experience with Trails is Cold Steel? From what I've gathered it's only like Trails in the sense it is pretty story heavy (what Falcom game isn't these days?) and has the bonding/relationship stuff. Apparently the writing is a weaker than Trails, and the action RPG gameplay is a weaker than Ys.
Really? I thought TX's soundtrack was by far its strongest point, and one of modern Falcom's best soundtracks. Ys VIII's is attached to a far better game, though.
As for the game itself, yeah, what's said above is pretty much correct. It feels like a Persona-like plot premise with Kiseki-like writing (good, but not quite as good) and an improved version of CS's bonding system. The gameplay is definitely not as good as Ys, though - a fair amount of the dungeons and bosses are kind of bland, although there are some standouts as well. The Vita version is also too easy, even on Nightmare.
If you want to play the game, definitely wait for eX+ - the substantial new additions are absolutely worth it.
The steam page for Cold Steel is up. It lists July as the release month so we'll probably hear a date soon.
Wishlisted.
Too hype to lock my bonding points to infinity and to cruise at 4x through Nord lol.
Dragoon En Regalia
Member
Better yet, new fast travel option for Nord Highlands - Northeast...pretty please? I hope this hooks to Cheat Engine correctly if not.
This had better be a late July release with plenty of marketing like what 3rd got (nothing spectacular, but more active and substantial/nagging than what SC and FC on PC had).
This had better be a late July release with plenty of marketing like what 3rd got (nothing spectacular, but more active and substantial/nagging than what SC and FC on PC had).
Yup, finished it last year and I think I'll replay it as soon as its out. No matter what I'll buy it day one to encourage Xseed anyway
Well maybe I'll appreciate it when I play the game, but yeah not feeling it right now.
This year is already packed, so TX goes on the when it goes on sale wishlist.
I finished Cold Steel recently and I might double dip on this PC port as well.
Seems like they are targeting toasters with their requirements. It asks for an Intel Atom X7 and 4 GB of RAM (essentially a GPDWin), while promising 720p 30 fps with portable settings.
Scrooge McDuck
Member
ResourcefulStar
Neo Member
For reference, the Steam page for the 3rd went up on the 7th of April, and the game was released on the 3rd of May, a bit less than a month after that.
Really excited to play this for the first time, thanks to Star Door 8. Spoilers for the TitS trilogy:
Really excited to play this for the first time, thanks to Star Door 8. Spoilers for the TitS trilogy:
I hope Ouroboros doesn't completely hijack the plot at Osborne's expense. I found Weissmann and the Enforcers to be a downgrade from Richard, and I doubt that the Erebonian Ouroboros cell measures up to the chancellor.
Scrooge McDuck
Member
There's a cover already? Oh god this is really happening.
And hey, at least the Japanese CS2 cover rightfully acknowledges Jusis.
CrimsonFist
Member
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ShadowSoldier89
Member
Way too much focus on new characters for part 3 of a sub series...
?
It's the same lead character and happening a year later. It's really not that different from (Sky spoiler)
Joshua being away from Estelle for at least 70% of SC.
way too much focus on the characters you are going to be using most of the game*
Just gonna keep Juna and Musse in the party
as well as Fie/Laura when we reach their point in the story
Maybe keeping
Agate
he's too much of a softie and a bro
I'll keep Agate in my party for reasons. If I can make a party of Rean, Olivier, Tita and Agate you better be damn sure that I'll keep that one (With maybe Musse and Fie as backup)
Come on, you can do better than that.
I really dig Annabelle's new, cooler outfit.
KuwabaraTheMan
Banned
Annabelle and Kenneth better wind up hooking up at some point in this game.