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The Legend of Heroes: Trails of Cold Steel |OT| Class Warfare
- Thread starter Dandy Crocodile
- Start date
Yes, this one
edit: they are quite funny, she is the responsible/superior to you, and boss you around, have a dark/sad past and drinks a lot
Glitter and Gold
Banned
I felt that way later on.
In the initial introductions Machias just comes off as an asshole though lol
Oh wow, I can't believe I didn't put that together!
Both characters:
-Are relatively accomplished for women under 30
-Are only about ten years senior to the kids they're advising
-Are exceedingly savvy and capable, especially when shit hits the fan
-Are a little anxious about a lack of romantic prospects
-Have a bit of a drinking problem
Eva is so seminal, I can't imagine Misato wasn't an influence on creating Sarah. I love both characters a ton, too.
Both characters:
-Are relatively accomplished for women under 30
-Are only about ten years senior to the kids they're advising
-Are exceedingly savvy and capable, especially when shit hits the fan
-Are a little anxious about a lack of romantic prospects
-Have a bit of a drinking problem
Eva is so seminal, I can't imagine Misato wasn't an influence on creating Sarah. I love both characters a ton, too.
DrROBschiz
Member
Yeah i wasnt crazy about Machias's unreasonable hostility towards a complete stranger who never instigated.
Its funny because as Jusis gets more interesting Machias just fades into the background..
Shame because i loved using both of them in battle.
Jusis is just the superior character from a writing standpoint. Ill be interesting to see how other players felt as they reach the end
StereoVsn
Member
Yeah, her, Misato, and probably couple dozen anime teacher heroines. She is tropey as it gets. Misato at least was created in the 90s when this shit was a lot less common. Also Evangelion is on whole other level of being a weird weird thing.
I just of another comparison. I dislike MC for Eva just a tad more then Rean. Cold Steel == Evangelion confirmed.
Overall, I disliked Sarah since she was just so archetypical and predictable. Alisa had inane dialogue, background, personality and behavior. Rean seems to be an MC from a bad Anime/Light Novel.
I just don't get what folks here are finding good about them. Well, and the student council president too. Then Macchias was an annoying ass as well.
Anyway, FC/SC are on another level from character perspective. I can't say I disliked anyone there, not to mention half the cast. As I said, I dropped the game after Ch.4, I couldn't take the dialogue and characters anymore. I will make myself finish the game though and hope that everyone is right and CS2 is the payoff (doubt it).
Nose Master
Member
There a trick to
combat? I can't seem to get full advantage.
Horse
skLaFarebear
Member
You're confused why we like the characters when you haven't even made it past chapter 4?
This could be a discussion worth having if you beat it but until that happens...well you're free to like/dislike whatever you want.
This could be a discussion worth having if you beat it but until that happens...well you're free to like/dislike whatever you want.
StereoVsn
Member
I spent over 30 hours on the game (probably closer to 40). You don't see an issue that characters are atrocious this far in? I did not have the issue in FC and SC.
skLaFarebear
Member
I could care less how long you've spent on it or what comparisons you make to FC/SC. Doesn't change that you only made it to chapter 4 and are questioning everyone's opinions about why they like the chatacters/game.
Finish it and maybe you'll see. Or maybe you won't, i dont really care either way tbh.
Edit: the whole "i spent this many hours" with a game is a dumb justification for anything. It shouldn't matter how long you spent with the game. Someone who spent 0 hours playing a game can make a very well thought out piece about it and someone who's spent 100+ can make a shitty piece about it.
I never found a way to. You can still approach from behind and get Single advantage, but if you want Double/Triple you're going to have to get off the horse.
I think it's particularly egregious though, when you're discussing a narrative-focused game that takes 80 hours to get through, on average.
It's one thing if you're not impressed by anything you saw in your 40 hours with the game, but when you're like "I don't get why everyone likes these people" that's silly because you're not accounting for the fact both the characters and the story can change - be it for better or for worse - drastically in the second half of the game that you missed when you put it down.
You don't get it because you're missing half the context.
skLaFarebear
Member
You're totally right that context matters and i probably should've said that.
Yeah, we're diametrically opposed on Rean, but fair enough. Here's my last post on the subject:
http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=212221287
I find Rean to be a great subversion of the usual JRPG MC.
S'all good!
StereoVsn
Member
No, what you are describing is horrible game design. So what you are saying is that first half of the game is filled with terrible dialogue and bad characterization and the it all gets redeemed by the latter half?
FC had a slow start and yet characters and even dialogue was fine for the most part. I have gone through half of SC1 and it's still terrible. You two think that's a good decision by the developer to leave dialogue and characters in a state which will disincentize players to finish the game and pick up the sequel (well, two sequels)? That's insane and defending this speaks of fanboism (is that a word?) and ignoring pretty bad mistakes on the developer's part.
People bitch all the time about P4 spending a few hours setting things up or DQVII. Shit, this is half the game right here.
I'm not talking about game design and neither are you. We're talking about how narrative functions on the most basic level.
I'm not making excuses for the game and have no interest in doing so. I'm saying that, perhaps, you don't understand what it is others find so great about this story because you have only seen half of it.
StereoVsn
Member
Eh, I made 0 mention about the story. I am not talking about narrative, you are. What I am saying is that dialogue and characterization is terrible. I find the actual story decent to potentially good.
hosannainexcelsis
Member
"It gets better" is always a weak justification for sitting through something that's bad, especially if you have you spend many hours on a story before it "gets good". Sometimes, for whatever reason, that is actually how a story plays out, and you have to decide whether it's worth the investment to sit through the weak parts to get to the stronger ones. I don't think Cold Steel is bad so far, but if someone does hearing "you just need to put in 10 more hours" or something along those lines is probably not going to change their views on it.
This isn't what I said or implied and it's not thinking I subscribe to, either.
One thing this game embodies with its characters is to not read a book by its cover. The whole cast embodies this phrase to varying degrees. I personally enjoyed everyone's growth, from the main cast to the side cast, and to the townspeople and school NPCS.
DrROBschiz
Member
To be fair the second half gets fucking bonkers and some is great and some parts arent so great so yeah
If you have any interest in the series you should at least finish it
I will say that you wont like most of the characters much if you already dont like them now. Some get better moment and scenes... Some dont... Its worth finishing regardless
Its earn its accolades and criticisms though. I consider it the game with the weakest plot and characters but redeemed by its excellent combat, music and world building.
It certainly did justice to bringing the series into 3D and expanding Erebonia. The world itself might be the best "character" honestly though i also have my faves in that department
cj_iwakura
Member
Started finally.
+
Game is gorgeous, easily prettiest on the Vita so far
Combat looks fun
-
Slooooooooow start (expected it though)
XSeed. Guys. Come on. Opening video. Add. Song lyric. Translation. Subtitles. It ain't that hard.
+
Game is gorgeous, easily prettiest on the Vita so far
Combat looks fun
-
Slooooooooow start (expected it though)
XSeed. Guys. Come on. Opening video. Add. Song lyric. Translation. Subtitles. It ain't that hard.
StereoVsn
Member
Yeah, going to have to work through it at some point before CS2 start. I do like the setting, world, most of the story so far, combat, the music and don't mind the visuals and a bit of lag on the Vita.
I guess my greater disappointment was how hyped up I was after FC/SC, and issues with weak MC, and some of the surrounding chars hit even harder. It feels like Falcom decided to throw some Persona in but forgot that characters had to be great as well.
DrROBschiz
Member
Find solace by doing all the events of the character you do like
I went into detail before about how the character building and story really suffers from the persona inspired gameplay.
Ill repost it if anyone is interested but the gist is that by making the events optional it drastically decreases their impact since they cant be incorporated in the main plot in a meaningful way
Dont worry. Its not all bad. Even if the bonding events are filler you still gets some great moments from them here and there
I went into detail before about how the character building and story really suffers from the persona inspired gameplay.
Ill repost it if anyone is interested but the gist is that by making the events optional it drastically decreases their impact since they cant be incorporated in the main plot in a meaningful way
Dont worry. Its not all bad. Even if the bonding events are filler you still gets some great moments from them here and there
Scrooge McDuck
Member
It's not about justifying the game or wanting to change views, I don't think.
Say that everybody is thinking that a certain full course meal is great, with the main dish being a stand out that makes everything worth it. Then somebody went in and say "I've eaten the appetizer and don't understand why people think this full course meal is great."
We're not saying that they need to eat the main dish and then they'd definitely like it. We're not saying that the appetizer is good the way it is and doesn't need to be improved. We're just saying "well, duh."
StereoVsn
Member
Nah, it's more like you are halfway through the steak and its medium well instead of medium rare. Then when you want to send it back to the kitchen the waiter tells you that the other half is actually cooked correctly and desert is amazing.
Scrooge McDuck
Member
What you don't know is that steak is actually the appetizer.
But seriously, no matter what analogy we're using, if you're wondering why people like it, perhaps it's because people got to see parts you haven't gotten to see. I mean, if you only wanted to discuss the character portrayals of the first four chapters, then fair enough, But if you added a line like "I don't get why people like them" then of course people would point out that your information is incomplete.
DrROBschiz
Member
These analogies are ridiculous
If you are a fan of the series as a whole you should finish it
Flaws and all. If thats killing you on the inside then just read a synopsis ans pile through YouTube videos to prep for the next game lol
If you are a fan of the series as a whole you should finish it
Flaws and all. If thats killing you on the inside then just read a synopsis ans pile through YouTube videos to prep for the next game lol
KuwabaraTheMan
Banned
I'm not sure about this specific instance, but sometimes there are actually licensing restrictions for translating the lyrics even if the song itself is licensed (maddening, I know).
Cornbread78
Member
Holy shit, almost an hour straight of cut scenes in that one section of chapter 4. That's more than the entire game of Star Ocean...
Rean is dense and dumb. You don't
Rean is dense and dumb. You don't
decline a princess' asking you out on a date with her in public.... baka, baka, baka Rean....
I understand coming from SC('s finale) has you adjust to this game's slow pacing. I do think, however, that you're judging the characters a bit too early and/or retroactively changed your opinion of FC characters (Agate was a bad character in FC, period). With 2,5 game of story ahead of you, don't you think you're jumping the gun - especially after having seen how far SC took FC's cast?
I'm not sure I agree on Rean being a subversion just because other characters comment on his dense anime MC tendencies and the game recognizes him for what he is. He never subverted my expectations, pretty much everything I expected to happen, happened.
Well, Rean certainly is an excellent character in comparison to Shittiest Characters of All Time Top 5 candidate Angelica.
What is it that makes Angelica so bad?
Pedophile perv, not funny at all, no subtlety, some of the worst dialogue in the game. She has a couple of good moments but all in all she makes almost all scenes worse by just doing her annoying shtick. What makes her even worse is that her story actually isn't all that bad or at least it has some potential
she's in direct opposition to her family's opinion & position in the growing unrest between the two factions, being forced to quit school and all that
Also if people get the (late game Cold Steel spoilers)
Towa festival dance scene
Toadthemushroom
Member
This is how I found Rean too. Everything about Rean, and his actions and dialogue, was highly predictable. That characters comment on this behaviour doesn't change anything - it's equivalent to a witness name drop or reference. There isn't anything particularly exciting or clever about it, it's just cementing it further for me.
I'm not convinced that he'd be a more believable character than another character that displays a variety of different tropes either (going back to the previously quoted post)
I repeat myself so often, I'm just going to meme it instead.
Even without that, some recent posts have been... Really something. LOL
Rean isn't a subversion of JRPG characters, he's just more of an anime main character than JRPG one. There's dozens of main characters just like him.
He's a bit easier to like than some, at least, though I think that's largely because the game treats the characters he interacts with as people rather than just the various parts of an MC's harem (eventually at least).
The Trails series doesn't tend to subvert the tropes and cliches it traffics in, but it does tend to do them well and often better than most. It usually manages to humanize them simply because the games are so long and you'll spend so long with them. Except Millium, she sucks. Hopefully she gets better in II.
He's a bit easier to like than some, at least, though I think that's largely because the game treats the characters he interacts with as people rather than just the various parts of an MC's harem (eventually at least).
The Trails series doesn't tend to subvert the tropes and cliches it traffics in, but it does tend to do them well and often better than most. It usually manages to humanize them simply because the games are so long and you'll spend so long with them. Except Millium, she sucks. Hopefully she gets better in II.
R_thanatos
Member
I respect your opinion and i respectfully disagree
Angie 's great .. it's easy to reduce her to that ( and only that ) but in CS1 , they already showed and told us that there is more to her character than that "shtick".
I especially like her reason for attending the academy , the way she choose to
live her life despite her father wishes
PS: and she has 2 of the most awesome quotes in the game.
Millium is the only one I went out of my way to minimize my time with.
R_thanatos
Member
I feel the same way. i expected to dislike millium a lot more , but aside from a super annoying moment in chapter 5 , she was fine ...so i guess i'm ok with it.
She's still the character i maxed the link last...but now i don't mind more of her.
Glitter and Gold
Banned
I'm not saying you're right or wrong, but you're mistakenly confusing your own personal perception and experience for developer intent in design.
I don't really feel like it's a justification, more like an explanation. Personally I feel it's rather dumb to try and have a discussion about the game, or any type of story, without having completed it. If you don't like it and stop playing it that's fine, but I mean if you come into a thread and try to engage people telling them why the game's bad having not completed it, it sort of puts your argument at an unfair advantage. Any proof contrary from later in the game would be spoilers should you choose to continue. So all people can say really is "keep playing". Finish the game and then we can talk on even ground, instead of wasting everyone's time arguing why it's bad without a complete perspective.
Toadthemushroom
Member
I think both this post and the quoted post have a lot of merit when seen together.
The point is, developer intent isn't necessarily correct, and it's moreso more difficult to gauge the players' experiences with a ~150 hour trilogy than it is, say, watching players' faces while they try out an instantaneous experience like Super Mario 64.
The question is how much should a player tolerate to enjoy something that's a product of developer intent. In RPG speak, a trilogy that consists of three, 60 hour games over 180 hours, is a much bigger ask than, say, something like the two connected Golden Sun games, which the player could experience to their fullest after 50 hours.
I wouldn't dismiss someone's thoughts just because they haven't invested over 100 hours experiencing an entire narrative, because developer intent in a genre such as this is going to be largely theoretical. Especially when you consider the large percentage of players - the audience - that don't actually complete games. And the fact that a trilogy as long as this one isn't exactly representative of the norm as far as completion goes.
A good example would be to look at Danganronpa 2: That game is far more convoluted than the first game, with a much more drawn-out, time-wasting narrative that never really makes sense. Until that last chapter and *that* plot twist. That twist was amazing, and makes you realise that what preceded it was entirely planned all along (developer intent).
But does that necessarily make it a better game than the first title, if an (admittedly great) payoff needs 20 or so hours to be realised? On balance, I don't believe so. I think anyone complaining about the preceding 20-30 hours before they reach the twist themselves can feel justified in doing so. I've seen a few people do so, people who don't have as much time to invest playing games as I do, and while I do tell them it gets much better near the end, I can understand why they think what they do up to that point, and it reflects on the game.
DrROBschiz
Member
Man people didnt like Angelica? I guess i understand. Though if you think about every character that even has a passing interest in sexuality they are all written this way.
Crow and even Sarah end up with writting that kind of pushes things into silly territory
Im not about to say Angelica is horrible because the writers struggle with adapting the nuance of sexual expression
Crow and even Sarah end up with writting that kind of pushes things into silly territory
Im not about to say Angelica is horrible because the writers struggle with adapting the nuance of sexual expression
Glitter and Gold
Banned
Well I don't really think there is a "correct" or incorrect when it comes to story telling, no more than there's a correct or incorrect interpretation, reaction or criticism to a story.
What I meant by my quote is to point out that the way StereoVsn was framing his criticism. That his poor experience was a result of deliberate design on the part of the developer. Which isn't the case on any level. Falcom did not intentionally make the game for players to have a bad time in the first half. They made a game in hopes that their users would enjoy it the entire way through, like every developer does.
He just doesn't like what they made. Which is fine.
I'm not dismissing his thoughts or experiences. If he doesn't like it that's fine and he's 100% free to express that here. It just doesn't make sense to be argumentative and confrontational about it with other users.
because there's nothing to talk about. We can't really get into specifics on character arcs or how the narrative unfolds because he may or may not complete it.
All you can say is that the characters change and the story picks up once the building blocks are in place. Then it's up to them to continue or not. There's no real substantive conversation to be had discussing someone's vague criticisms of a game they haven't completed yet besides equally vague suggestions that they might feel different having completed the game. lol