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[Squire]

Yeah

Its a series so comparisons between installments are natural

I suppose that's the case, but I do think there's a balance to strike between fair comparisons based on legacy and judging a work that doesn't suffer from any noticeable identity crisis on its own terms.

They put "Legend of Heroes" on the box, they set an expectation - I totally get it. But it's also crystal clear from reading posts on this thread and just observing casual conversation about FC over the past few years that CS is very much it's own game. It's not FC and not trying to be. So I would be wary in how often I cite FC or the sequel in my criticisms.

 

[Nyoro SF]

Oh, thread is moving.

I just can't identify with "Well, FC/SC..." Seems like that's at the core of a lot of the criticisms.

Not at all. Saying Shahed's nicely explained post is just "well, FC" is very poor manners.

I've already posted tons of my criticisms in this thread so I don't feel like repeating myself, but I do think many things in Steel are really unacceptable from a game design perspective, with a few of them fixed in CS2. Weak characters being the forefront.

I feel like Falcom can do a lot better. And since CS2 provides closure in a lot of ways while leaving a lot of things open, I feel like they've sort of hit a "reset" button of sorts, which will allow them to do better characterization and story progression from CS3 onward.

 

[DrROBschiz]

I suppose that's the case, but I do think there's a balance to strike between fair comparisons based on legacy and judging a work that doesn't suffer from any noticeable identity crisis on its own terms.

They put "Legend of Heroes" on the box, they set an expectation - I totally get it. But it's also crystal clear from reading posts on this thread and just observing casual conversation about FC over the past few years that CS is very much it's own game. It's not FC and not trying to be. So I would be wary in how often I cite FC or the sequel in my criticisms.

Nope its trying to be Persona lol

 

[Squire]

Not at all. Saying Shahed's nicely explained post is just "well, FC" is very poor manners.

There a lot of posts in this thread. I don't know what's possessed you to think I'm singling out Shahed or anyone else for that matter. I'm making an observation and a neutral one at that.

Nope its trying to be Persona lol

OK

 

[Toadthemushroom]

Not a fan of the whole

Spoiler

overly attached little sister with semi-incestuous

undertones. I've seen it often enough in various anime. I can see that they're trying to make it seem adorable or cute at how a younger sister may look at an older brother, but I've always found it annoying and repeated exposure hasn't helped. Even the teasing with Alfin is just eye rolling instead of funny. So yeah that's why I don't like Elise or her relationship with Rean.

Thanks, that's fair enough, as an imouto character Elise doesn't do anything new and instead borrows from the book of clichés, but I think she's a good imouto character despite that. I hope she becomes more significant later on too.

 

[DrROBschiz]

There a lot of posts in this thread. I don't know what's possessed you to think I'm singling out Shahed or anyone else for that matter. I'm making an observation and a neutral one at that.



OK

Im just poking fun man

Me and Shahed went to exhaustive detail on these subjects so Its not like I have a dismissive attitude towards the game

I criticized it harshly in some areas and praised it in others and I think I gave very solid explanations for why I felt the way I did

If you are gonna call out a bunch of posters for unfairly comparing it to FC then address it specifically

 

[coredecepts]

I guess I just don't consume the media that Cold Steel seems to pull from, so I'm not bothered by the use of cliches and common character archetypes.

And man..."horrible graphics"? The visuals achieve what they set out to do. The only thing I'll complain about is the running and basic attack animations. They're serviceable, not great.

 

[Squire]

Im just poking fun man

Me and Shahed went to exhaustive detail on these subjects so Its not like I have a dismissive attitude towards the game

I criticized it harshly in some areas and praised it in others and I think I gave very solid explanations for why I felt the way I did

If you are gonna call out a bunch of posters for unfairly comparing it to FC then address it specifically

I didn't address it specifically because I'm not trying to call anyone out though. Again, I get it. It's cool you like FC, but it seems like bears particular weight in how you've recieved CS. I think that's maybe a little unfair as I explained, but I like I sad at the top, I also haven't played FC. I only know it by reputation. I don't have very to argue with, so I'm not. It a was a neutral observation.

 

[DrROBschiz]

Awww ok

Well its highly recommended!

 

[Squire]

Awww ok

Well its highly recommended!

I do have it! I bought it on sale and played an hour or two, but got distracted by other things releasing at the time. I certainly intend to revisit it.

 

[Taruranto]

They tried to do a "realistic" art-style, but they didn't have either the graphic capacity or the animations for it. (That infamous Laura jump lol)

FC and SC looked more pleasant to the eyes to me.

The portraits especially are very, very ugly. FC and SC portraits are incredible and displayed so many emotions. (Estelle "pissed" face is legendary)

It's Tales of all over again. Vesperia still the most pleasant to the eyes compared to its sequels.

 

[DrROBschiz]

FC took me a long time since it starts so slow and basic

It wasnt till i got past the intro stuff that it hooked me like crazy and i basically marathoned both games

FC is deceptive like that. Comes off as a basic and cheap cookie cutter rpg at first

 

[hosannainexcelsis]

And man..."horrible graphics"? The visuals achieve what they set out to do. The only thing I'll complain about is the running and basic attack animations. They're serviceable, not great.

By going full 3D with Cold Steel, Falcom has inevitably placed themselves in comparison with every other 3D game being released at the same time, and it's not a great comparison. It's pretty amusing how, for instance, in cutscenes every door opens automatically when a character approaches it without any animation for reaching out for the doorknob or anything like that. Still, unlike FC/SC, the environments can actually convey some sense of attractive vistas and the incidental NPCs have more variety in clothing and body types instead of heavily reusing a handful of awkward spirtes, so I can't complain much.

 

[Shahed]

Thanks, that's fair enough, as an imouto character Elise doesn't do anything new and instead borrows from the book of clichés, but I think she's a good imouto character despite that. I hope she becomes more significant later on too.

Thing is as much as we might disagree on our opinion of Elise, I do agree with your last sentence. As long as Elise remains largely on the sidelines and uninvolved, I'll always see her as the annoying imouto. She needs to be portrayed and shown in a more meaningful manner for me to judge her as her own person and not some clingy attachment. I may even like her if that happens and she grows as a character.

 

[DrROBschiz]

Thing is as much as we might disagree on our opinion of Elise, I do agree with your last sentence. As long as Elise remains largely on the sidelines and uninvolved, I'll always see her as the annoying imouto. She needs to be portrayed and shown in a more meaningful manner for to judge her as her own person and not some clingy attachment. I may even like her if that happens and ahe grows as a character.

Well CS2 is around the corner.... And i already know she plays a role so im desperately hoping she doesnt get the shit they gave her in CS1

Lets move forward Falcom

 

[hosannainexcelsis]

FC took me a long time since it starts so slow and basic

It wasnt till i got past the intro stuff that it hooked me like crazy and i basically marathoned both games

FC is deceptive like that. Comes off as a basic and cheap cookie cutter rpg at first

The reason I liked the beginning of FC is simply because it was so mundane compared to most RPGs. You're not saving a princess or fighting a great unsealed evil, you're protecting a farm from animals eating its crops and escorting photojournalists. It makes the world feel more grounded. Even when the stakes escalated substantially in SC, there was still a sense of the world being grounded and individual citizens trying to figure out how to respond to events (e.g., the repair of the Elmo hot springs). Thus I feel a lot more invested in the narrative outcome, because there's people I want to protect.

I do find it amusing how one of the first field study tasks in Cold Steel is an exact copy of one of the first quests in FC - replacing an orbal light by a road.

 

[DrROBschiz]

Oh for sure

I didnt realize at the time but the slow build up was hooking me without realizing it

The build up didnt hit me until i hit the first pay off from the narrative setup and then i was invested and couldnt put it down.

 

[Toadthemushroom]

Thing is as much as we might disagree on our opinion of Elise, I do agree with your last sentence. As long as Elise remains largely on the sidelines and uninvolved, I'll always see her as the annoying imouto. She needs to be portrayed and shown in a more meaningful manner for me to judge her as her own person and not some clingy attachment. I may even like her if that happens and she grows as a character.

Yeah, she definitely needs time for character growth. It also didn't help that she didn't really appear in many scenes overall, so compared to another recent game with an imouto (Fire Emblem Fates) it is much likely to come across as pandering than anything else. Whereas I can't imagine Elise or Sakura as not being a part of Nohr or Hoshido in those games (even though imouto characters were probably inserted for pandering's sake)

By going full 3D with Cold Steel, Falcom has inevitably placed themselves in comparison with every other 3D game being released at the same time, and it's not a great comparison. It's pretty amusing how, for instance, in cutscenes every door opens automatically when a character approaches it without any animation for reaching out for the doorknob or anything like that. Still, unlike FC/SC, the environments can actually convey some sense of attractive vistas and the incidental NPCs have more variety in clothing and body types instead of heavily reusing a handful of awkward spirtes, so I can't complain much.

This. It's about expectations, really, and it falls short in a few areas. It's nice that they managed to get some shaders and cast shadows from the environment at least, but overall the more natural elements feel stiff and lifeless - particularly animation which feels like the Tales games before Symphonia: DoaNW added true motion capture and lipsync.

 

[Glitter and Gold]

Hardcore Japanese gamers can be just as insufferable and impossible to please as Western ones then, no surprise there I suppose (not that the game couldn't look better for something running on PS3 hardware, even if "horrible graphics" is hyperbolic). To be honest, the strength of Crafts is exactly what I was looking for, as I found both Crafts and S-Crafts underpowered in what I have played of FC so far. Personally, with Rean, I liked both his essential straight man to the rest of the cast status, and yes, even the aspect of

Spoiler

the hidden power, and how wanting to control it led to him taking up the sword, but then dropping from the Eight Leaves school early when he felt that it wasn't helping

. Just so that this doesn't come across as ceaseless fawning, though, I will say that having Emma be so secretive for so long did bug me, and that matters concerning Elise did get awkward.

To say that this is exactly what I had been looking for in respect to an RPG after an entire generation of PS3 efforts being largely disappointing in that regard (with few exceptions) would be an understatement.

Same. I think it ended up putting alot of the meat of the battle system into the specific characters, while in FC and SC the best party members are the ones with the base stats that allow them to make the best make use of the Orbment options. In Cold Steel it's reversed. Arcus is there to enhance the talents of the characters and I prefer it that way.

 

[DrROBschiz]

Even though you could break the game balance pretty fast i still loved the combat

They did an excellent job in that department despite the flaws

I really had fun with it

 

[Gu4n]

I do find it amusing how one of the first field study tasks in Cold Steel is an exact copy of one of the first quests in FC - replacing an orbal light by a road.

One of the first quests in FC - saving the miners - is actually a direct copy (monster designs included) of one of the first quests in A Tear of Vermillion, where you work for the Adventurer Guild.

It's good to see there's an healthy discussion in this thread now. Keep it up guys. <3

 

[DrROBschiz]

I have the trails itch and there is so much meat on the bone for discussion in this series

I could probably do another 100 pages on here lol

 

[Cornbread78]

Now that was a long chapter! I mean, that 45+ min cut-scene last night definitely padded it a little, but ever the map sequences took some time to navigate through to get things done in the story.

Where I really hate the

Spoiler

kidnapping

plot device, I guess it set out what the story was intending to do at that point. There is no doubt in my mind that

Spoiler

the Douche Chancellor Osborne

plays a role in that and is part of the bad guy crew. If I'm wrong, I'd be very surprised, because it's not like they are trying to hide it at all and clearly give that impression from that introduction. Pretty good chapter though. I'm just glad I didn't have too much trouble with those end bosses and the extended time in the dungeon's helped power up my team.

EDIT:
They say the opposite in the beginning of Chapter 5 about

Spoiler

Chancellor Osborne

but I'm not buying it. he's too much of an ominous character...

EDIT2: I knew I was going to get stuck with this midget.....

 

[hosannainexcelsis]

One of the first quests in FC - saving the miners - is actually a direct copy (monster designs included) of one of the first quests in A Tear of Vermillion, where you work for the Adventurer Guild.

Oh, neat. It's cool to see that kind of continuity across the series. It's too bad there doesn't seem to be any viable English version of the earlier Legend of Heroes games, since the PSP versions are so poor.

 

[Toadthemushroom]

Oh, neat. It's cool to see that kind of continuity across the series. It's too bad there doesn't seem to be any viable English version of the earlier Legend of Heroes games, since the PSP versions are so poor.

Oh boy. My introduction to the series was via the PSP version of Legend of Heroes II. The me of ten years ago happily played through it to the end, though I ultimately found it to be "meh" (especially having played through Tales of Eternia and Phantasia earlier that year on PSP and GBA). Wonder what I'd make of it now.

 

[Taruranto]

^Personally I have a soft sport for the Gagharv. Yeah, the translation is kinda bad (I imagine it's less grating to me because english isn't not my first language), but I really liked the journey themes together with the giant, three-games spawning history.

ToV is probably the worst of the bunch however, and also the least connected.

 

[cj_iwakura]

I'm not sure about this specific instance, but sometimes there are actually licensing restrictions for translating the lyrics even if the song itself is licensed (maddening, I know).

That's insane, and yet strangely unsurprising.

 

[Shin-chan]

I never really liked the whole mundanity of FC. I suppose you can see it as a breath of fresh air but the series is called The Legend of Heroes - it's obviously not going to be small scale and tiny conflicts just based on the title alone. This gave me ideas about the scale of the story and I just found myself wishing it would cut to the chase for a lot of FC.

I've posted in this thread before about how I now appreciate it as the building blocks of a bigger narrative but as a first impression it was slow and boring and felt like the game was stringing me along - where was the legend and where were the heroes? Well we later learn that Cassius Bright was off doing something far more interesting, but I digress.

 

[DrROBschiz]

I never really liked the whole mundanity of FC. I suppose you can see it as a breath of fresh air but the series is called The Legend of Heroes - it's obviously not going to be small scale and tiny conflicts just based on the title alone. This gave me ideas about the scale of the story and I just found myself wishing it would cut to the chase for a lot of FC.

I've posted in this thread before about how I now appreciate it as the building blocks of a bigger narrative but as a first impression it was slow and boring and felt like the game was stringing me along - where was the legend and where were the heroes? Well we later learn that Cassius Bright was off doing something far more interesting, but I digress.

I mean

I only thought it felt slow in the first town. Once I met a certain someone it was a roller coaster

 

[Shin-chan]

I mean

I only thought it felt slow in the first town. Once I met a certain someone it was a roller coaster

I'd hardly call any of FC up until the end of Chapter 3 a roller coaster ... and even then the pacing takes such a huge dip after that with the fighting tournament that I find it hard to praise any aspect of the stories pace.

Again I appreciate that people liked or even loved it but I found the game a chore and it's only redeemed because SC delivers narrative pay offs for everything the first game sets up. I can't see myself ever playing it again.

Edit: the steam sales for SC don't surprise me either since it can take a will of steel to get to the end of FC. But once you get there there's no way you can't not buy the second game.

 

[DrROBschiz]

I'd hardly call any of FC up until the end of Chapter 3 a roller coaster ... and even then the pacing takes such a huge dip after that with the fighting tournament that I find it hard to praise any aspect of the stories pace.

Again I appreciate that people liked or even loved it but I found the game a chore and it's only redeemed because SC delivers narrative pay offs for everything the first game sets up. I can't see myself ever playing it again.

Edit: the steam sales for SC don't surprise me either since it can take a will of steel to get to the end of FC. But once you get there there's no way you can't not buy the second game.

Well I guess what I mean is that I couldnt put it down

So regardless of whether it was a big plot moment or a small section of the game I was enjoying all of it beyond the initial hump.

I basically marathoned both games

 

[aravuus]

Aside from the ending, FC is hardly a rollercoaster at any point imho. Which is why I loved it so much on my recent replay.

e: well, I suppose in the sense that I couldn't put it down either it was for me too lol. I just wouldn't call that a rollercoaster, if only because there are people here who are planning on playing FC and SC in the near future and I don't want to give them unreasonable, unrealistic or plain wrong expectations of the game lol. Those are what initially ruined TiTS for me, after all.

 

[DrROBschiz]

Sigh

I mean maybe thats the wrong word its just that I was so sucked in and pushed through both games so fast because I just didnt want to stop

Its a metaphor guys

 

[Shin-chan]

Sigh

I mean maybe thats the wrong word its just that I was so sucked in and pushed through both games so fast because I just didnt want to stop

Its a metaphor guys

No problem, and I'm not trying to crap on your opinion or whatever but like the other guy it's easy to get an incorrect impression of the game with words like roller coaster. It's a very muted game that is building the blocks of a much bigger narrative, and I think repeat playthroughs will highlight how well it does this and also be a draw for the game (as well as the world building which as we all know is great). I just have no interest in trying it again for a long time.

For me, the gameplay of FC was also fairly dull. The crafts were pretty boring and I didn't enjoy using either Estelle or Joshua really. I liked it when it switched up the party a lot, because seeing the new characters, their weapons and crafts was my favourite part. The slow unskippable animations didn't help either.

As flawed as CS is, it's leagues ahead of FC in every way (apart from not using the character portraits - what a terrible idea).

 

[DrROBschiz]

No problem, and I'm not trying to crap on your opinion or whatever but like the other guy it's easy to get an incorrect impression of the game with words like roller coaster. It's a very muted game that is building the blocks of a much bigger narrative, and I think repeat playthroughs will highlight how well it does this and also be a draw for the game (as well as the world building which as we all know is great). I just have no interest in trying it again for a long time.

For me, the gameplay of FC was also fairly dull. The crafts were pretty boring and I didn't enjoy using either Estelle or Joshua really. I liked it when it switched up the party a lot, because seeing the new characters, their weapons and crafts was my favourite part. The slow unskippable animations didn't help either.

As flawed as CS is, it's leagues ahead of FC in every way (apart from not using the character portraits - what a terrible idea).

Gameplay wise sure (minus the structure) but story and character wise? Ehhh gonna have to disagree there

The writing was what pulled my through those games and Cold Steel kind of failed me a bit in that department

 

[aravuus]

I'm not trying to crap on your opinion or whatever

Ditto. No hard feelings, rob.

The thing I genuinely missed most going back to FC from CS was actually the fact that the latter shows NPCs on the minimap. It was such a huge help when going around talking to everyone.

 

[DrROBschiz]

Without question Cold Steel is technically and mechanically superior for sure

Now to just get the writing where is needs to be...

Just finished watching some youtube videos of various character events and man...... Rean is straight making me angry lol. Why did they do this to the main character.

 

[Glitter and Gold]

I thought Cold Steel did a really good job with the expressions on the character models as the character portraits. I didn't really miss the hand drawn ones at all.

 

[Menthuss]

Without question Cold Steel is technically and mechanically superior for sure

Now to just get the writing where is needs to be...

Just finished watching some youtube videos of various character events and man...... Rean is straight making me angry lol. Why did they do this to the main character.

I'm only in chapter 2 and reading stuff like this doesn't make me very hopeful. I'm already cringing almost every time Rean opens his mouth.

 

[aravuus]

I'm only in chapter 2 and reading stuff like this doesn't make me very hopeful. I'm already cringing almost every time Rean opens his mouth.

Well if it helps, he doesn't get much worse as the game goes on, either.

 

[coredecepts]

I like how Rean is just a decent guy. He has some personal issues, and the whole "hidden power" thing can be silly, but his earnest enthusiasm is infectious.

But I'm withholding judgment until after finishing CSII, since it's the second half (third?) of the story.

 

[DrROBschiz]

I like how Rean is just a decent guy. He has some personal issues, and the whole "hidden power" thing can be silly, but his earnest enthusiasm is infectious.

But I'm withholding judgment until after finishing CSII, since it's the second half (third?) of the story.

Im trying bro... I really am. But going back through some Cold Steel stuff on the youtubes (filling in gaps since you cant 100% the first playthough) has some seriously cringeworthy dialogue

 

[Gu4n]

But I'm withholding judgment until after finishing CSII, since it's the second half (third?) of the story.

Rean made both omgfloofy cry and me sick in the stomach during CS2. Another scene had me give Rean (actually, Falcom) a standing ovation. He's a great protagonist, but hasn't had the spotlight on him. Yet.

 

[Nyoro SF]

Rean made both omgfloofy cry and me sick in the stomach during CS2. Another scene had me give Rean (actually, Falcom) a standing ovation. He's a great protagonist, but hasn't had the spotlight on him. Yet.

Actually, I was clapping during that scene, because I could finally *spoiler spoiler, spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler*. :^)

 

[DMiz]

They tried to do a "realistic" art-style, but they didn't have either the graphic capacity or the animations for it. (That infamous Laura jump lol)

FC and SC looked more pleasant to the eyes to me.

The portraits especially are very, very ugly. FC and SC portraits are incredible and displayed so many emotions. (Estelle "pissed" face is legendary)

It's Tales of all over again. Vesperia still the most pleasant to the eyes compared to its sequels.

I'm still trying to understand why they went full 3D, considering that there are still 2D elements throughout the game (e.g. Camp Menu portraits). I think there's a middle ground here that they haven't completely capitalized on between 2D and 3D that I feel like the PSX era was better at straddling (probably due to the limitations at the time).

Whatever the case, CS3 is supposed to be their most graphically impressive game to date, according to the director, right? Maybe going full 3D has at least given them enough experience to keep pushing forward with the tech.

 

[Cyframe]

Seeing those Japanese scores was interesting. And I've heard personally that the Crossbell games are the personal favorites of many. I hope we get them eventually, even if it's 2020.

I'm excited for CSII. I hope that this game isn't so rigid with structure this time around. I wanted a bit more town exploration than the school setting, but overall I really enjoy the series.

 

[DrROBschiz]

Rean made both omgfloofy cry and me sick in the stomach during CS2. Another scene had me give Rean (actually, Falcom) a standing ovation. He's a great protagonist, but hasn't had the spotlight on him. Yet.

Im legit excited for CS2

Maybe they can redeem all the characters i had issues including our plucky protagonist lol

 

[StereoVsn]

I'm only in chapter 2 and reading stuff like this doesn't make me very hopeful. I'm already cringing almost every time Rean opens his mouth.

Don't worry, everyone in the thread told me that after the first 4 chapters he is going to get much better.

Spoiler

It's not bloody likely. I am 5-6 hours into Ch. 5 now and it's same old Anime MC Rean.

The good part is that the world and the story are much more interesting than a lot of the characters and combat is pretty good. So there is that.

 

[DMiz]

Seeing those Japanese scores was interesting. And I've heard personally that the Crossbell games are the personal favorites of many. I hope we get them eventually, even if it's 2020.

I'm excited for CSII. I hope that this game isn't so rigid with structure this time around. I wanted a bit more town exploration than the school setting, but overall I really enjoy the series.

I keep hearing this as well. Can somebody comment on what made the Crossbell Saga so great?

 

[Glitter and Gold]

I'm still trying to understand why they went full 3D, considering that there are still 2D elements throughout the game (e.g. Camp Menu portraits). I think there's a middle ground here that they haven't completely capitalized on between 2D and 3D that I feel like the PSX era was better at straddling (probably due to the limitations at the time).

Whatever the case, CS3 is supposed to be their most graphically impressive game to date, according to the director, right? Maybe going full 3D has at least given them enough experience to keep pushing forward with the tech.

There's no more room for growth in their 2D engine

While in the 3D space they've improved immensely from CS1 to Ys 8 from what I hear