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[Mumei]

Thank you for your concern. As someone once said, he who has felt the deepest grief is best able to experience supreme happiness. We must have felt what it is to die, that we may appreciate the enjoyments of living.

"Only someone who has suffered the deepest misfortune is capable of experiencing the heights of felicity. [...], you must needs have wished to die, to know how good it is to live.

So, do live and be happy, children dear to my heart, and never forget that, until the day when God deigns to unveil the future to mankind, all human wisdom is contained in these two words: 'wait' and 'hope'!"

It's a beautiful sentiment, especially for anyone who has experienced the depths of depression, or a terrible loss.

 

[Loxley]

This is my favourite.

I can image crossing the bridge, walking up the hilly, undulating path, breathing in the sweet fragrance of the cultivated countryside, saying hello to my favourite tree and stepping into my comfy, but not too outlandish hobbit hole, and sitting down for a nice cup of tea.

Thank you for your concern. As someone once said, he who has felt the deepest grief is best able to experience supreme happiness. We must have felt what it is to die, that we may appreciate the enjoyments of living.

Thank you.

I love that one as well, and your description there reminded me just how glad I am that it's finally spring. I've always associated Tolkien with the mid-year seasons, probably because of how much time he devotes to describing the natural scenery in the text. Six years of Boy Scouts couldn't get me to appreciate nature quite in the way that Tolkien did.

So much so, in fact, that I can trace a line from my interest in BBC's numerous nature documentaries straight back to Tolkien's work. Which reminds me, I still need to watch Africa...

 

[Edmond Dantès]

I love that one as well, and your description there reminded me just how glad I am that it's finally spring. I've always associated Tolkien with the mid-year seasons, probably because of how much time he devotes to describing the natural scenery in the text. Six years of Boy Scouts couldn't get me to appreciate nature quite in the way that Tolkien did.

So much so, in fact, that I can trace a line from my interest in BBC's numerous nature documentaries straight back to Tolkien's work. Which reminds me, I still need to watch Africa...

Yes indeed. Tolkien has been labelled as a luddite by some, but he was more of a naturalist in the David Attenborough vein.

One of the great things about where I live is the proximity to two national parks and some of the finest coastline in the UK; Seven Sisters cliffs, Lulworth Cove and Durdle Door being some of the finest examples.

BBC's Africa is an excellent nature series and you'll be pleased to know that the BBC aren't relenting on the nature documentary front. The following have been commissioned:

Oceans (NHU) 6x60’, BBC One, Executive Producer James Honeyborne

In 2001, the BBC led the world with the multi award-winning Blue Planet; now it plans to return to the planet’s oceans. More marine species have been discovered in the past decade than ever before, with an average of 2,000 discoveries per year.

Since Blue Planet, 250,000 new species have been identified in the oceans, including the bizarre-looking blanket octopus – the first ‘live’ male was discovered, which is 300 times smaller and 40,000 lighter than the female; the alarmingly hairy ‘yeti crab’ discovered near Easter Island; and the velvet belly lanternshark that uses a ‘light-sabre’-style glowing spine to defeat its enemies. Scientists are also uncovering new behaviours - such as dolphins that outwit their prey using empty shells as fish traps - and new locations, such as the world’s biggest volcano, just discovered off the coast of Japan; giant underwater waterfalls in Norway; and submerged forests of perfectly preserved ghostly trees.

Drawing on new filming techniques not available at the time Blue Planet was shot - such as a new gyro-stabilised aerial camera system, remotely operated submarines, 4k digital resolution and new marine tracking techniques - we will capture the marvels of the world’s largest living space.

One Planet (NHU) 6x60’, BBC One, Executive Producer Vanessa Berlowitz

A decade on from Planet Earth, it's time for a new experience...

One Planet is a series of spellbinding adventures that introduces viewers to the rules of the game of life as it plays out across Earth's great wildlife arenas. From mountains to deserts, wild islands to man-made cities, each episode selects the most spectacular scenes and stories from around the globe to create the ultimate tour of an iconic ecosystem.

During these immersive journeys of discovery, the viewers experience the physical rules and mighty forces that govern each arena as if through the eyes of the creatures that live there. Groundbreaking filming techniques unite the canopies of the planet's rain forests or the frozen summits of its tallest peaks in a continuous or ''limitless' zoom. Along the way, viewers discover the amazing adaptations that animals and plants have evolved in response to each arena - seeds, squirrels, frogs, lizards, even snakes have all solved the need for flight between rainforest trees but in remarkably different ways. For the first time, a landmark series puts the remarkable diversity of life into the context of its dynamic arenas. And the reveal? You must dare to be different if you want to keep one step ahead on an ever-changing planet...

The Hunt (Silverback) 7x60’, BBC One, Executive Producer Alastair Fothergill

The Hunt takes a totally fresh look at the most dramatic behaviour in nature: the competition between predators and their prey. Across the globe, predators face unique challenges wherever they live, and these different challenges drive the narrative of each episode. Using character-driven stories, the series will dissect the clever and complex strategies predators use to catch their prey, showing viewers how these are some of the hardest working animals in the natural world. Sequences with some of the planet's top predators include polar bears filmed hunting bearded seals for the very first time, using a fascinating aquatic stalking technique; golden eagles and wolves working together to capture mountain lambs high in the Rocky mountains; and a breathtaking hunt where a pack of killer whales chase a humpbacked whale calf for two hours.

Tiger In The House (NHU) 3x60’, BBC Two, Executive Producer Julian Hector

There are fewer than 400 Sumatran tigers left in the wild, and efforts to keep the species going in protected environments are key to not losing them for ever. For the next three months, the BBC Natural History Unit is following the extreme lengths one zoologist and family man is going to in order to help protect them.

Giles Clark, the exotic carnivore keeper at Australia Zoo, is in charge of one precious Sumatran tiger - 5-year-old Kaitlyn. Following the birth of her cubs this month, Giles will be helping them to adapt to their new lives by taking the tiger cubs home to live with his family – his wife, two children and two dogs. For the first week of their lives, the cubs have been nursed naturally by their mum, but now that their eyes have opened, the time has come for them to go home to stay with Giles and his family, in order to acclimatize them to a protected life. At home in suburban Brisbane, the cubs will need round the clock feeds, so Giles has converted the family living room into a tiger crèche and drawn up a 24-hour rota.

He will be sharing feeding duties with his wife Kerry, son Kynan (8) and daughter Alicia (16). Even the family dogs (Caesar and Ruby) have a role to play in helping the cubs adjust to their life with other animals at the zoo. Over three months, the family will learn to share their lives as the cubs grow quickly, graduating from milk to eating meat, learning to jump, climb, swim and stalk prey, before they are old enough to be returned to the zoo.

Alaska, Japan, Patagonia, New Zealand (NHU) 12x60’, BBC Two, Executive Producer James Honeyborne

Four iconic corners of the globe, each stunningly photographed, with a very different story to tell in four trilogies.

Alaska is one of the most seasonal places on Earth, where every living thing - both wildlife and people - must cope with extremes of heat and cold, darkness and light. Viewers will discover the characters of America’s final frontier, with all its huge landscapes, romance and brutality, and reveal their stories of life on the edge.

In Japan, one of the most modern, crowded, urbanised nations on Earth, wildlife and human culture are closely entwined like nowhere else. The very landscapes – exquisitely beautiful and unpredictably violent - dictate all their lives.

Patagonia is all about strangeness and is one of the ultimate lands of mystery – windswept, very remote, and with unusual wildlife grown up over thousands of years, and not always comfortably.

In a joint initiative with NDR, New Zealand is the Great Experiment – an island where nature thrived bizarre and undisturbed for 80 million years. The most recently settled land on Earth still has the most astonishing selection of unique life, but now the experiment continues under the influence of people, and the raft of new animals they brought in.

Countdown To The Rains (Tigress) 3x60’, BBC Two, Executive Producer Dick Colthurst

Countdown To The Rains is a fast turnaround series shot and transmitted at one of the most dramatic and important moments in the calendar of the natural world: the moment the African dry season ends.

More than 75 cameras (The Super Bowl 2013 had 62) will cover everything that happens along a one-mile stretch of African river in the South Luangwa National Park, recognised as one of the richest wildlife areas on Earth.

2013 has been the hottest dry season in Africa anyone can remember. The Luangwa River is barely flowing. The vast herds of elephant, buffalo, hippo, antelope, giraffe and zebra that live here are struggling to find anything to eat. For the predators, it’s the complete opposite. The lions, leopards, crocodiles, hyena and wild dogs are in peak condition and ambushing prey at will. But when the rains come in the autumn, the tables are turned – and the greatest power struggles of all play out across a three-week period – with the cameras there to bear witness.

I'm particularly looking forward to the series focusing on New Zealand and the two flagship series that follow on from The Blue Planet and Planet Earth.

 

[Pai Pai Master]

I'm way LTTP but welcome back Edmond. Your presence here was sorely missed.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

I'm way LTTP but welcome back Edmond. Your presence here was sorely missed.

It's great to be back amongst friends.

 

[The Artful Dodger]

We gonna read the Silmarillion next month for sure?

I already started up but will be more than glad to backtrack if others are up for this!

 

[TheMink]

Just finished The Silmerillion

That makes:

The Hobbit
LOTR trilogy and appendices
The Silmerillion

Completed.


I still dont totally understand exactally what Wizards are (it was vaguely explained at the end of The Silmerillion) more specifically the ranks of them. Which i dont think was explain at all.

Can someone explain it further? And site the source if possible.

Also i have a pretty good understanding of the what all the Rings of Power do, but more explaination would be helpful if possible.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

We gonna read the Silmarillion next month for sure?

I already started up but will be more than glad to backtrack if others are up for this!

Certainly. So far you, Loxley, WanderingWind and MasterBalls who have shown interest and I'm sure other regulars of this thread will be interested, not to mention the general populace who haven't read The Silmarillion. I'll definitely join in too.

 

[Neffarias_Bredd]

I would be in for a Silmarillion read

 

[Edmond Dantès]

Just finished The Silmerillion

That makes:

The Hobbit
LOTR trilogy and appendices
The Silmerillion

Completed.


I still dont totally understand exactally what Wizards are (it was vaguely explained at the end of The Silmerillion) more specifically the ranks of them. Which i dont think was explain at all.

Can someone explain it further? And site the source if possible.

Also i have a pretty good understanding of the what all the Rings of Power do, but more explaination would be helpful if possible.

In Tolkien's Legendarium the highest power is Eru Iluvatar, the equivalent of god.

He created a race of angelic beings known as the Ainu to aid him in the creation of Arda. Middle-earth is a continent on this planet.

The higher ranking Ainu were named the Valar, the equivalent of Archangels, the less powerful ones were named the Maiar, equivalent of lesser angels.

The origin of all evil in Arda is the most powerful of the Ainu; Melkor, who rebelled against Eru and corrupted Mairon who became known as Sauron and the Fire Spirits which took on the forms of Balrogs. He also engineered the dragons, orcs, wolves etc

During the Second age after Melkor's banishment at the end of the First age, a Council of the Valar was held and it was decided that five Maia in the forms of wizards would go to Middle-earth from Valinor, the abode of the Valar, Maiar and highest of all Elves; the Vanyar to aid the peoples of Middle-earth against Sauron who had escaped Melkor's fate.

Much of the above is detailed in various sources, but the info dealing with the Council of the Valar is dealt with in The History of Middle-earth series. The Unfinished Tales also have a specific section dealing with the Istari.

In terms of the Rings of Power, essentially amplifiers of power in various guises, but also to stem the continuing ruin of Middle-earth (in the hands of the Elves), however futile that was.

I can provide a more detailed answer if you want.

 

[CorvoSol]

I'd love to get in on that, but I have to find a copy first, haha.

 

[TitusGroan]

I'm no Edmond Dantes, and I'm sure he'll post a far better explanation, but as far as the wizards go, they're Maiar.

If Eru is the supreme cosmic deity who oversees everything, and the Valar are the more traditional 'pantheon of deities' who run the show on his behalf, then the Maiar are the servants of the Valar with divine powers of their own. In purely Catholic terms, they could perhaps be seen as 'Angels', but the comparison doesn't quite ring true. While the Maiar serve the Valar in a similar way to how Angels serve the Almighty, they also have elements that strongly resemble nature spirits and sub-deities from more pagan religions. Their affinity for elements, and the way different Maiar have different forms that range from beautiful to monstrous (Balrogs are fallen Maiar spirits, for instance).

The Five Wizards were Maiar spirits who were selected to act as emissaries to Middle Earth. They hid their true form by appearing in the guise of old men, and were meant to serve the Valar by acting as inspiration and guides to the mortals. Rather than trying to match Sauron purely by force, they were supposed to play the role of Mr Motivator, giving the citizens of Middle Earth the courage they needed to defeat evil themselves. Two of them journeyed East, and were never heard of again. I believe Tolkien might have said somewhere that they fell to dark ways, but don't quote me on that. They didn't really have 'ranks' as such, more the ordinary sort of hierarchy that happens whenever a group ifs formed of people with varying abilities. Saruman was made the explicit head of the White council by virtue of his knowledge (and his lack of humility), but beyond that, Gandalf was senior to Radagast only in that he took a more active role in events.

As for the Rings of Power, I've always thought it helps to think of them as power amplifiers. Anyone can use them, but you need a minimum level of power to really make the best use of them. The One Ring, for instance, is the most powerful object in existence, yet when we see the Hobbits use it, the total effect is invisibility and sharpened hearing, as well as seeing into the wraith world. However, the books make explicitly clear that if someone like Aragorn, Gandalf or Galadriel were to ever make use of the ring, they would be powerful beyond all reckoning. That's part of why Sauron is scared, and why he wants to defeat Gondor and Rohan so quickly: he doesn't want the chance of someone like Gandalf making use of the Ring and challenging him.

EDIT

Late like an oversleeping Bilbo!

 

[Loxley]

We gonna read the Silmarillion next month for sure?

I already started up but will be more than glad to backtrack if others are up for this!

Certainly. So far you, Loxley, WanderingWind and MasterBalls who have shown interest and I'm sure other regulars of this thread will be interested, not to mention the general populace who haven't read The Silmarillion. I'll definitely join in too.

I would be in for a Silmarillion read

Yep, The Silmarillion read is still planned. I think around the middle of next week (say, the 21st or so) I'll make the thread for it - with a planned starting date of Sunday, June 1st. That should give people enough to time to procure a copy of it if they haven't already.

After that, it's a matter of basically scheduling things out. Ainulindalë and Valaquenta are both short enough that they could each have their own week's worth of discussion. After that, we'll have to get a bit more specific with where to break up the text (would love some suggestions here) since the Quenta Silmarillion takes up the bulk of the book.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

I'm no Edmond Dantes, and I'm sure he'll post a far better explanation, but as far as the wizards go, they're Maiar.

If Eru is the supreme cosmic deity who oversees everything, and the Valar are the more traditional 'pantheon of deities' who run the show on his behalf, then the Maiar are the servants of the Valar with divine powers of their own. In purely Catholic terms, they could perhaps be seen as 'Angels', but the comparison doesn't quite ring true. While the Maiar serve the Valar in a similar way to how Angels serve the Almighty, they also have elements that strongly resemble nature spirits and sub-deities from more pagan religions. Their affinity for elements, and the way different Maiar have different forms that range from beautiful to monstrous (Balrogs are fallen Maiar spirits, for instance).

The Five Wizards were Maiar spirits who were selected to act as emissaries to Middle Earth. They hid their true form by appearing in the guise of old men, and were meant to serve the Valar by acting as inspiration and guides to the mortals. Rather than trying to match Sauron purely by force, they were supposed to play the role of Mr Motivator, giving the citizens of Middle Earth the courage they needed to defeat evil themselves. Two of them journeyed East, and were never heard of again. I believe Tolkien might have said somewhere that they fell to dark ways, but don't quote me on that. They didn't really have 'ranks' as such, more the ordinary sort of hierarchy that happens whenever a group ifs formed of people with varying abilities. Saruman was made the explicit head of the White council by virtue of his knowledge (and his lack of humility), but beyond that, Gandalf was senior to Radagast only in that he took a more active role in events.

As for the Rings of Power, I've always thought it helps to think of them as power amplifiers. Anyone can use them, but you need a minimum level of power to really make the best use of them. The One Ring, for instance, is the most powerful object in existence, yet when we see the Hobbits use it, the total effect is invisibility and sharpened hearing, as well as seeing into the wraith world. However, the books make explicitly clear that if someone like Aragorn, Gandalf or Galadriel were to ever make use of the ring, they would be powerful beyond all reckoning. That's part of why Sauron is scared, and why he wants to defeat Gondor and Rohan so quickly: he doesn't want the chance of someone like Gandalf making use of the Ring and challenging him.

EDIT

Late like an oversleeping Bilbo!

Good thorough explanation.

To add to my post above and yours, to give TheMink plenty to read.

In terms of the Council of the Valar and the diminishment of the Istari while in Middle-earth, from The Unfinished Tales:

Manwë summoned the Valar for a council [Maybe he had asked Eru for counsel] at which it was resolved to send out three emissaries to Middle-Earth and he asked who would go. They would have to lose might and clothe themselves in flesh to win the trust of Elves and Men but this would also imperil them, diminish their wisdom and knowledge and bring upon them fear, the care and weariness of the flesh. Only two came forward; Curumo [Saruman] and Alatar. Curumo was chosen by Aulë among "his" Maiar and Alatar was send by Oromë. Manwë asked where Olórin [Gandalf] was and Olórin just returned from a journey and coming to the meeting asked what he wanted from him and Manwë told that he wished him to go as the third to Middle-Earth. Olórin answered that he meant himself to weak for such a task and that he feared Sauron. Then Manwë said that that was all the more reason why he should go and he commanded him to go as the third. There Varda broke in and said "Not as the third" and Curumo remembered that.

On the Blue Wizards as stated in Peoples of Middle-earth.

The 'other two' came much earlier, at the same time probably as Glorfindel, when matters became very dangerous in the Second Age. Glorfindel was sent to aid Elrond and was (though not yet said) pre-eminent in the war of Eriador. But the other two Istari were sent for a different purpose. Morinehtar and Romestamo. Darkness-slayer and East-helper. Their task was to circumvent Sauron: to bring help to the few tribes of Men that had rebelled from Melkor-worship, to stir up rebellion ... and after his first fall to search out his hiding (in which they failed) and to cause [?dissension and disarray] among the dark East ... They must have had a very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and disarraying the forces of the east ... who would both in the Second Age and Third Age otherwise have ... outnumbered the West.

As for Gandalf and the One Ring, from Letter 246:

Gandalf as Ring-Lord would have been far worse than Sauron. He would have remained 'righteous', but self-righteous. He would have continued to rule and order things for 'good', and the benefit of his subjects according to his wisdom (which was and would have remained great).

Also of interest, the following note to himself published in The Unfinished Tales shows that Tolkien was playing with the idea of making Gandalf and Manwe one and the same. It also reinforces the view of the Odinic influence on the likes of Gandalf (Odin's good traits) and Sauron (Odin's bad traits). The same is also applicable to Manwe and Melkor to an even greater degree.

It also indicates that Sauron and Gandalf were of equal inherent might and less powerful than the Herald of Manwe, Eonwe (who at one time was the son of Manwe before the Children of the Valar concept was dropped).

Who was Gandalf? It is said in later days (when a shadow of evil arose in the Kingdom) it was believed by many of the 'faithful' of that time that 'Gandalf' was the last appearance of Manwe himself, before his final withdrawal to the watchtower of Taniquetil. (That Gandalf said that his name 'in the West' had been Olorin was, according to this belief, the adoption of an incognito, a mere by-name). I do not (of course) know the truth of the matter, and if I did it would be a mistake to be more explicit than Gandalf was. But I think it was not so. Manwe will not descend from the mountain until the Dagor Dagorath and the coming of the End, when Melkor returns. To the overthrow of Morgoth he sent his herald Eonwe. To defeat Sauron would he not then send some lesser (but mighty) spirit of the angelic people, one coeval and equal doubtless, with Sauron in their beginnings, but not more? Olorin was his name. But of Olorin we shall never know more than he revealed in Gandalf.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

Yep, The Silmarillion read is still planned. I think around the middle of next week (say, the 21st or so) I'll make the thread for it - with a planned starting date of Sunday, June 1st. That should give people enough to time to procure a copy of it if they haven't already.

After that, it's a matter of basically scheduling things out. Ainulindalë and Valaquenta are both short enough that they could each have their own week's worth of discussion. After that, we'll have to get a bit more specific with where to break up the text (would love some suggestions here) since the Quenta Silmarillion takes up the bulk of the book.

Here's the Quenta plus the Akallabêth and Of the Rings of Power.

1. Of the Beginning of Days
2. Of Aulë and Yavanna
3. Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor
4. Of Thingol and Melian
5. Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalië
6. Of Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor
7. Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor
8. Of the Darkening of Valinor
9. Of the Flight of the Noldor
10. Of the Sindar
11. Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor
12. Of Men
13. Of the Return of the Noldor
14. Of Beleriand and its Realms
15. Of the Noldor in Beleriand
16. Of Maeglin
17. Of the Coming of Men into the West
18. Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin
19. Of Beren and Lúthien
20. Of the Fifth Battle: Nirnaeth Arnoediad
21. Of Túrin Turambar
22. Of the Ruin of Doriath
23. Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin
24. Of the Voyage of Eärendil and the War of Wrath

1. Akallabêth
2. Of the Rings of Power

I'm thinking two or three a day, for example:

Monday - Of the Beginning of Days and Of Aulë and Yavanna
Tuesday - Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor and Of Thingol and Melian
Etc.

 

[TitusGroan]

Excellent stuff Dantes.

The other thing that's worth remembering with the Rings is that, apart from the Elven three, Sauron had a direct hand in making the rest: The Seven, the Nine and of course the One. Part of what made the One Ring so powerful during the Second Age wasn't just the direct strength it conferred on Sauron, but also the fact that it gave him power over the wearers of the other rings. The Nine he was able to exert direct control over through the One, thanks to men having weaker resolve than other races. The Seven he was less able to control directly, but he still was able to corrupt the hearts of the Dwarves who wore them, so that they became greedy and avaricious.

It's less of a direct issue in the Third Age, given that the Nazgul were already Sauron's slaves, and the Seven lost, but back in the Second Age, the fact that Sauron was suddenly able to exert his will over the nine most powerful men and seven most powerful dwarves was a big fucking deal.

Given that he was still able to control the Nazgul without the Ring in LOTR, I've sometimes wondered whether they simply followed Sauron without question, or if someone powerful like Gandalf had taken control of the Ring, whether they would have become his slaves instead. The thought of a fallen Gandalf commanding the Nine to turn against Sauron is certainly an intriguing one...

 

[bengraven]

I'm lame.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

Excellent stuff Dantes.

The other thing that's worth remembering with the Rings is that, apart from the Elven three, Sauron had a direct hand in making the rest: The Seven, the Nine and of course the One. Part of what made the One Ring so powerful during the Second Age wasn't just the direct strength it conferred on Sauron, but also the fact that it gave him power over the wearers of the other rings. The Nine he was able to exert direct control over through the One, thanks to men having weaker resolve than other races. The Seven he was less able to control directly, but he still was able to corrupt the hearts of the Dwarves who wore them, so that they became greedy and avaricious.

It's less of a direct issue in the Third Age, given that the Nazgul were already Sauron's slaves, and the Seven lost, but back in the Second Age, the fact that Sauron was suddenly able to exert his will over the nine most powerful men and seven most powerful dwarves was a big fucking deal.

Given that he was still able to control the Nazgul without the Ring in LOTR, I've sometimes wondered whether they simply followed Sauron without question, or if someone powerful like Gandalf had taken control of the Ring, whether they would have become his slaves instead. The thought of a fallen Gandalf commanding the Nine to turn against Sauron is certainly an intriguing one...

There's a very interesting point made by Tolkien further on in Letter #246 regarding the what might have occurred had Frodo kept the ring:

Frodo had become a considerable person, but of a special kind: in spiritual enlargement rather than in increase of physical or mental power; his will was much stronger than it had been, but so far it had been exercised in resisting not using the Ring and with the object of destroying it. He needed time, much time, before he could control the Ring or (which in such a case is the same) before it could control him; before his will and arrogance could grow to a stature in which he could dominate other major hostile wills. Even so for a long time his acts and commands would still have to seem 'good' to him, to be for the benefit of others beside himself. The situation as between Frodo with the Ring and the Eight might be compared to that of a small brave man armed with a devastating weapon, faced by eight savage warriors of great strength and agility armed with poisoned blades. The man's weakness was that he did not know how to use his weapon yet; and he was by temperament and training averse to violence. Their weakness that the man's weapon was a thing that filled them with fear as an object of terror in their religious cult, by which they had been conditioned to treat one who wielded it with servility. I think they would have shown 'servility'. They would have greeted Frodo as 'Lord'. With fair speeches they would have induced him to leave the Sammath Naur – for instance 'to look upon his new kingdom, and behold afar with his new sight the abode of power that he must now claim and turn to his own purposes'. Once outside the chamber while he was gazing some of them would have destroyed the entrance.

Frodo would by then probably have been already too enmeshed in great plans of reformed rule – like but far greater and wider than the vision that tempted Sam (III 177)5 – to heed this. But if he still preserved some sanity and partly understood the significance of it, so that he refused now to go with them to Barad-dûr, they would simply have waited. Until Sauron himself came. In any case a confrontation of Frodo and Sauron would soon have taken place, if the Ring was intact. Its result was inevitable. Frodo would have been utterly overthrown: crushed to dust, or preserved in torment as a gibbering slave. Sauron would not have feared the Ring! It was his own and under his will. Even from afar he had an effect upon it, to make it work for its return to himself. In his actual presence none but very few of equal stature could have hoped to withhold it from him. Of 'mortals' no one, not even Aragorn. In the contest with the Palantír Aragorn was the rightful owner. Also the contest took place at a distance, and in a tale which allows the incarnation of great spirits in a physical and destructible form their power must be far greater when actually physically present.

Would the Eight have done the same with a more powerful Ring Lord than a mere hobbit? Would they have shown servility to another knowing Sauron was temporarily vanquished, but still capable of return? Would another have had the same control and utter dominance over the wills of the Eight?

The Ring was Sauron, a significant part of himself, while it subsisted, he subsisted and so would his influence over the remaining Nazgul. I think the Nazgul would have played the same game with any other Ring Lord; mock servility, ever waiting for the return of their Master.

 

[maharg]

I really wish more was written about the east. Ever since I first looked at the maps in LotR I wanted to know more about what was off the edge.

 

[TheMink]

Good thorough explanation.

To add to my post above and yours, to give TheMink plenty to read.

In terms of the Council of the Valar and the diminishment of the Istari while in Middle-earth, from The Unfinished Tales:

On the Blue Wizards as stated in Peoples of Middle-earth.


As for Gandalf and the One Ring, from Letter 246:


Also of interest, the following note to himself published in The Unfinished Tales shows that Tolkien was playing with the idea of making Gandalf and Manwe one and the same. It also reinforces the view of the Odinic influence on the likes of Gandalf (Odin's good traits) and Sauron (Odin's bad traits). The same is also applicable to Manwe and Melkor to an even greater degree.

It also indicates that Sauron and Gandalf were of equal inherent might and less powerful than the Herald of Manwe, Eonwe (who at one time was the son of Manwe before the Children of the Valar concept was dropped).

Thanks a lot guys, this really cleared up my main questions.

I guess i missed the fact that the Wizards were in fact Maiar, just like Sauron.

I also didnt realize that (if I'm reading correctly) Glorfindle (spelling is hard) is a Blue Wizard?

So a couple more questions then:

If Wizards aren't really Ranked by power why is Gandalfs transformation to White significant? Is it just the "Sauroman as he should have been" line thats the real significance?

Additionally, why is the Witch King more powerful than Gandalf? Same goes for Sauron.
Is it simply because they are taking human forms that weaken them/are choosing to be weaker?

 

[Jacob]

I also didnt realize that (if I'm reading correctly) Glorfindle (spelling is hard) is a Blue Wizard?

Glorfindel is actually just an elf, though he was one of the most powerful Elves both in terms of physical combat and spiritual power. He had been born in Aman (the Undying Lands, abode of the Valar) before going to Middle-earth with the other Noldor to fight Morgoth in the First Age. He was killed during the sack of Gondolin, but was restored to a physical body in Aman later on. The matter of Elvish reconstruction is a really complicated one related to the nature of death in Tolkien's legendarium, but to make a long story short, the souls of Elves cannot leave the circles of the world for as long as the physical universe endures (meaning they can't get to any "heaven", or wherever Eru/God is), so they are often given a new physical body after they die. However, this occurs in Aman even if the elf in question died in Middle-earth, and it is exceedingly rare for an Elf to be allowed to leave Aman and return to Middle-earth, especially after the end of the Second Age. Glorfindel was sent back (probably along with the Blue Wizards) to help out, but that was an exception to the general rule.

If Wizards aren't really Ranked by power why is Gandalfs transformation to White significant? Is it just the "Sauroman as he should have been" line thats the real significance?

There were differences in power between the Istari, largely based on the innate differences between them in their original Maiarian form, and Gandalf definitely seems to have gained new powers when he was returned as "the White". Because these powers are not really combat-related it can be hard to quantify them, though.

Additionally, why is the Witch King more powerful than Gandalf? Same goes for Sauron.
Is it simply because they are taking human forms that weaken them/are choosing to be weaker?

The human forms thing is the main reason. There's an essay about the Wizards in Unfinished Tales that goes into more detail on this (and unfortunately I'm away from my books right now so I'm going on memory), but basically the Valar were concerned about the possibility that one or more of the Wizards might go rogue and start trying to be like Sauron, which of course is what ultimately happened with Saruman. So they sent the Wizards to Middle-earth in real, physical bodies of humans, rather than in a spiritual form simply imitating humans, which prevented them from tapping into most of their spiritual/supernatural powers. Sauron did not have such limitations (though he eventually burned out his shapeshifting abilities).

I don't think it's clear that the Witch-king is more powerful than Gandalf, though. That goofy seen in the Extended Edition of ROTK aside, the extent of the Nazgul's powers are somewhat vague. Much like the Dead Men of Dunharrow, their primary weapon seems to be the fear they instill in mortals. The Nazgul also have a bunch of inconvenient weaknesses, including a fear of both fire and water, though they at least seem more intimidating when they reappear in Gondor than they did when roaming around in Eriador. Gandalf and the Witch-king's confrontation in the book did not include any combat, though when Gandalf fought the Nazgul at Weathertop he defeated them. The Witch-king was also able to be tricked by the supernatural influence of Saruman's voice, though one could debate the significance of that.

 

[The Artful Dodger]

I always took the Istari (Wizards) at about equal (this can be debated) power to Sauron, but were generally forbidden from using their powers to this end. Which is why Saruman's fall was so significant since he aspired to do that which he was expressly forbidden from.

 

[TheMink]

Glorfindel is actually just an elf, though he was one of the most powerful Elves both in terms of physical combat and spiritual power. He had been born in Aman (the Undying Lands, abode of the Valar) before going to Middle-earth with the other Noldor to fight Morgoth in the First Age. He was killed during the sack of Gondolin, but was restored to a physical body in Aman later on. The matter of Elvish reconstruction is a really complicated one related to the nature of death in Tolkien's legendarium, but to make a long story short, the souls of Elves cannot leave the circles of the world for as long as the physical universe endures (meaning they can't get to any "heaven", or wherever Eru/God is), so they are often given a new physical body after they die. However, this occurs in Aman even if the elf in question died in Middle-earth, and it is exceedingly rare for an Elf to be allowed to leave Aman and return to Middle-earth, especially after the end of the Second Age. Glorfindel was sent back (probably along with the Blue Wizards) to help out, but that was an exception to the general rule.



There were differences in power between the Istari, largely based on the innate differences between them in their original Maiarian form, and Gandalf definitely seems to have gained new powers when he was returned as "the White". Because these powers are not really combat-related it can be hard to quantify them, though.



The human forms thing is the main reason. There's an essay about the Wizards in Unfinished Tales that goes into more detail on this (and unfortunately I'm away from my books right now so I'm going on memory), but basically the Valar were concerned about the possibility that one or more of the Wizards might go rogue and start trying to be like Sauron, which of course is what ultimately happened with Saruman. So they sent the Wizards to Middle-earth in real, physical bodies of humans, rather than in a spiritual form simply imitating humans, which prevented them from tapping into most of their spiritual/supernatural powers. Sauron did not have such limitations (though he eventually burned out his shapeshifting abilities).

I don't think it's clear that the Witch-king is more powerful than Gandalf, though. That goofy seen in the Extended Edition of ROTK aside, the extent of the Nazgul's powers are somewhat vague. Much like the Dead Men of Dunharrow, their primary weapon seems to be the fear they instill in mortals. The Nazgul also have a bunch of inconvenient weaknesses, including a fear of both fire and water, though they at least seem more intimidating when they reappear in Gondor than they did when roaming around in Eriador. Gandalf and the Witch-king's confrontation in the book did not include any combat, though when Gandalf fought the Nazgul at Weathertop he defeated them. The Witch-king was also able to be tricked by the supernatural influence of Saruman's voice, though one could debate the significance of that.

Oh i see, the vagueness of Gandalfs power (and everything in general) is one of the most intriguing parts of LOTR and why i love it so much. But if specifics are given i like to know.

I forgot that Combat wasnt part of the Gandalf Witch King encounter. Though i will say i loved that scene in the movie.

The fight on weathertop was awesome because it was only alluded too as far as the details are concerned. But it is a strong point in favor of Gamdalfs true power.

Btw i have read the Silmerillion, so explainations of thing like the Elf life cycle arent needed. But the refresher is appreciated


As long as we are on the subject of movie to book discrepancies, the scene where Gandalf saves Thaodin (sorry spelling again) specifically.
In the movie it shows it like hes banishing Sauroman, but in the book it seems like hes just healing his mind. Am i remembering wrong?

Additionally. At the end of Return of the King it reveals Gandalf as a ring bearer. (The Red one of Fire IIRC) Is there any real significance there? I mean power wise, i was always given the impression that fire was sort of Gandalfs inherit ability. But is that the ring? Or does it just amplify it?

 

[Arksy]

Question...just how readable is The Silmarillion? If you know nothing outside of what you've read in LOTR and the Hobbit from around a decade ago is it something you can just pick up and read or would I need to keybind 'search middle earth wiki' to my left mouse button?

 

[elrechazado]

Question...just how readable is The Silmarillion? If you know nothing outside of what you've read in LOTR and the Hobbit from around a decade ago is it something you can just pick up and read or would I need to keybind 'search middle earth wiki' to my left mouse button?

I read it at nine yrs old, you'll be fine, and it is fantastic.

 

[hunnies28]

Just last week I said I needed to re read the Silmarillion and now you guys are planningto do so. I really hope I manage to get a copy in time. I don't post here much but I always appreciate the knowledge you share with the rest of us.

The last time I read the book was many years ago and in Spanish. I want to read it in its original language.

 

[The Artful Dodger]

Man, I am sooo excited for this to happen.

 

[TitusGroan]

As long as we are on the subject of movie to book discrepancies, the scene where Gandalf saves Thaodin (sorry spelling again) specifically.
In the movie it shows it like hes banishing Sauroman, but in the book it seems like hes just healing his mind. Am i remembering wrong?

Not at all. The books were much more subtle than the film's The Exorcist spin. In the books, Theoden is pretty much in a bout of depression, caused by the death of his son, and Wormtongue convincing him he's weaker than he really is. At no point does Saruman ever possess Theoden, nor is it really implied at all that there's anything supernatural at play.

Additionally. At the end of Return of the King it reveals Gandalf as a ring bearer. (The Red one of Fire IIRC) Is there any real significance there? I mean power wise, i was always given the impression that fire was sort of Gandalfs inherit ability. But is that the ring? Or does it just amplify it?

The fire that the Narya, the ring Gandalf bore, had power over wasn't literal fire. but the fire of courage. Gandalf used the Ring to inspire hope and bravery in the men around him, enough to stand up to the forces of Saruman and Sauron. You'll notice in the books that the majority of the time, Gandalf isn't doing any magic at all- he's inspiring the Men of Middle Earth to fight.

 

[TUSR]

HOLY FUCK im so happy to see Edmond back.

 

[peanutbutterlatte]

Yeah I'm all up for a Silmarillion reading, been meaning to get round to finishing it since I was like 12

 

[Edmond Dantès]

Question...just how readable is The Silmarillion? If you know nothing outside of what you've read in LOTR and the Hobbit from around a decade ago is it something you can just pick up and read or would I need to keybind 'search middle earth wiki' to my left mouse button?

The Silmarillion represents the start of a timeline. A timeline that eventually leads into the events of The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings, which in themselves are mere chapters in a grand overarching narrative that spans all the ages of Arda. If anything, reading The Silmarillion will give you a better understanding of The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings; references and allusions to the past will become all the more clearer. Although, some of the mystique of the past ages may well be lost to you.

In terms of the nomenclature, pronunciation and the sheer abundance of names, you may well find it slightly overwhelming at first, but you need not fret, you'll have the support of the more experienced Tolkien readers in this thread to help you out, if need be.

 

[TheMink]

Not at all. The books were much more subtle than the film's The Exorcist spin. In the books, Theoden is pretty much in a bout of depression, caused by the death of his son, and Wormtongue convincing him he's weaker than he really is. At no point does Saruman ever possess Theoden, nor is it really implied at all that there's anything supernatural at play.



The fire that the Narya, the ring Gandalf bore, had power over wasn't literal fire. but the fire of courage. Gandalf used the Ring to inspire hope and bravery in the men around him, enough to stand up to the forces of Saruman and Sauron. You'll notice in the books that the majority of the time, Gandalf isn't doing any magic at all- he's inspiring the Men of Middle Earth to fight.

Aha i see! That clears it up thanks

Subject change! When i read the story of Luthian and Beren recently for the first time, i couldn't get over how incredible that story was. And truely touching. Huan the Dog is one of the most compelling characters,

Spoiler

the fight between Huan and Sauron is incredibly awesome. It seriously gave me shivers reading it.

I would love a movie adaption of that story.



Ok next question:

Let me see if this is right, the Two Trees created by the Valar are basically the Moon and the Sun correct? Because

Spoiler

when they were destroyed the world got dark like full on Anor Londo style

And so the Silmarills

Spoiler

(being taken from the tree)

had the power to... What exactly? Bring them back?

Spoiler

I felt like when the Valar who extracted the sap and made the luminaries in the sky it sort of negated the importance of the Silmarills.

I'm being a little more careful with spoilers for these questions.

 

[Red Mage]

The human forms thing is the main reason. There's an essay about the Wizards in Unfinished Tales that goes into more detail on this (and unfortunately I'm away from my books right now so I'm going on memory), but basically the Valar were concerned about the possibility that one or more of the Wizards might go rogue and start trying to be like Sauron, which of course is what ultimately happened with Saruman. So they sent the Wizards to Middle-earth in real, physical bodies of humans, rather than in a spiritual form simply imitating humans, which prevented them from tapping into most of their spiritual/supernatural powers. Sauron did not have such limitations (though he eventually burned out his shapeshifting abilities).

One small correction. Sauron didn't burn out his shapeshifting ability, it was lost when

Spoiler

Numenor was destroyed by Eru

. (Silmarillion Spoilers.) Whether it was a result of being at ground-zero of the event or something more supernatural is never explained.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

Aha i see! That clears it up thanks

Subject change! When i read the story of Luthian and Beren recently for the first time, i couldn't get over how incredible that story was. And truely touching. Huan the Dog is one of the most compelling characters,

Spoiler

the fight between Huan and Sauron is incredibly awesome. It seriously gave me shivers reading it.

I would love a movie adaption of that story.



Ok next question:

Let me see if this is right, the Two Trees created by the Valar are basically the Moon and the Sun correct? Because

Spoiler

when they were destroyed the world got dark like full on Anor Londo style

And so the Silmarills

Spoiler

(being taken from the tree)

had the power to... What exactly? Bring them back?

Spoiler

I felt like when the Valar who extracted the sap and made the luminaries in the sky it sort of negated the importance of the Silmarills.

I'm being a little more careful with spoilers for these questions.

To answer your questions, I first have to ask what is Light in Tolkien's mythos?

1. After the great wars between the Valar and Melkor, and Melkor's defeat. There is a need at this point when order has been restored, that light as the necessary concomitant of a generative world is introduced. Yavanna (essentially mother earth in aspects) says "there was need of light". In Middle-earth as in real life, there can be no fruition without light, it is fundamental and the starting point for this analysis.

To quote The Sil:

"...Aulë at the prayer of Yavanna wrought two mighty lamps for the lighting of the Middle-earth which he had built amid the encircling seas. Then Varda filled the lamps and Manwë hallowed them, and the Valar set them upon high pillars, more lofty far than are any mountains of the later days. One lamp they raised near to the north of Middle-earth, and it was named Illuin; and the other was raised in the south, and it was named Ormal; and the light of the Lamps of the Valar flowed out over the Earth, so that all was lit as it were in a changeless day."

This is the first light and doesn't seem far from the primal light of god as conceived in the command in Genesis, "Let there be light". This light is constant and brilliant, there is not dark or night. The light is ever present and all illuminating. However, Melkor returns and destroys the Lamps. The world changes again, the uncontained light and heat are too intense, destroying what they touch. Thus the first light is quenched and cannot be renewed.

Then another attempt to illumine, but the quality of the light is changed and its brightness diminished. It is Yavanna who calls forth this light, but her specialty is nature and growing things rather than the air and fire that are the provinces of Manwe and Varda. The light is different from the primal, fiery element that lit the Lamps. Yavanna brings into being Laurelin (gold) and Telperion (silver). The light that emanates is gentler and dimmer, not as fierce or illuminating. This is a single effort, rather than the effort of multiple beings. The Trees represent diminution, one of the key themes in Tolkien's work. The Lamps lighted all of Middle-earth, the Two Trees only shine in Valinor. They give of a softer light of gold and silver rather than the brilliant and constant light of the Lamps.

Dimmer though the light may be, there still is no absolute darkness.

Tolkien had this to say:

"The Light of Valinor (derived from light before any fall) is the light of art undivorced from reason, that sees things both scientifically (or philosophically) and imaginatively (or sub-creatively) and says that they are good - as beautiful. The light of Sun (or Moon) is derived from the Trees only after they were sullied by Evil."

There is now light in Valinor, but Middle-earth is robbed of the light of the Lamps, save for the light of the stars, but those points of light are dim, inaccessible and beyond the reach of those who look for the light.

We then move swiftly onwards to Feanor and his Simarils. Out of the mingled gold and silver light, he creates the three Silmarils. The diminution then continues with the destruction of the Two Trees by Ungoliant at the behest of Melkor. Thus, the jewels become the focus for all the impulses, desires, and conflicting emotions that are seen by Tolkien as responses to the Light. The last pure light before it was sullied by Evil.

In the end, the last of the light, the star of Earendil, the last of the Simarils, not lost to the world, appears to the sight of the inhabitants of Middle-earth at morning and evening. It's no longer a pervasive presence, the light is but a promise, a reminder, a sign of what once was and what may yet come.

2. The Silmarils indeed, had the power to rejuvenate the Two Trees of Valinor, but Feanor would have to destroy his creation for this to come to pass. Here follows the full dialogue between Feanor and the Valar:

Yavanna spoke before the Valar, saying: "The Light of the Trees has passed away, and lives now only in the Silmarils of Fëanor. Foresighted was he! Even for those who are mightiest under Ilúvatar there is some work that they may accomplish once, and once only. The Light of the Trees I brought into being, and within Eä I can do so never again. Yet had I but a little of that light I could recall life to the Trees, ere their roots decay; and then our hurt should be healed, and the malice of Melkor be confounded.

Then Manwë spoke and said: 'Hearest thou, Fëanor son of Finwë, the words of Yavanna? Wilt thou grant what she would ask?'

There was long silence, but Fëanor answered no word. Then Tulkas cried: 'Speak, O Noldo, yea or nay! But who shall deny Yavanna? And did not the light of the Silmarils come from her work in the beginning?'

But Aulë the Maker said: 'Be not hasty! We ask a greater thing than thou knowest. Let him have peace yet awhile.'

But Fëanor spoke then, and cried bitterly: 'For the less even as for the greater there is some deed that he may accomplish but once only; and in that deed his heart shall rest. It may be that I can unlock my jewels, but never again shall I make their like; and if I must break them, I shall break my heart, and I shall be slain; first of all the Eldar in Aman.'

'Not the first,' said Mandos, but they did not understand his word; and again there was silence, while Fëanor brooded in the dark. It seemed to him that he was beset in a ring of enemies, and the words of Melkor returned to him, saying that the Silmarils were not safe, if the Valar would possess them. 'And is he not Vala as are they,' said his thought, 'and does he not understand their hearts? Yea, a thief shall reveal thieves!' Then he cried aloud: 'This thing I will not do of free will. But if the Valar will constrain me, then shall I know indeed that Melkor is of their kindred.'

Then Mandos said: 'Thou hast spoken.' And Nienna arose and went up onto Ezellohar, and cast back her grey hood, and with her tears washed away the defilements of Ungoliant; and she sang in mourning for the bitterness of the world and the Marring of Arda.

He refused of course, already putting his own pride and desire before the needs of the majority.

Further on, his refusal to bring the Silmarils to the festival of the Valar, serves as the catalyst for all the strife that follows.

The Ages pass and we find ourselves with Frodo in Torech Ungol, with the last remnants of the pure Light, in the form of the Phial of Galadriel; light derived from the Silmaril that Earendil took possession of. This light hurts Shelob, and allows Frodo to escape momentarily. It also comes to Sam's aid in vanquishing Shelob. Even in diminished form the Light illumines the dark recesses of the world.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

A thread dedicated to the upcoming release of Tolkien's Beowulf translation will be up tomorrow.

 

[Loxley]

A thread dedicated to the upcoming release of Tolkien's Beowulf translation will be up tomorrow.

Yay

 

[Fireblend]

Oh man, I'm so LTTP but I just realized Edmond is back. I saw his name on the thread and my eyes lighted up. Welcome back! Sign me up for the reading group if we're doing that, too

 

[The Artful Dodger]

A thread dedicated to the upcoming release of Tolkien's Beowulf translation will be up tomorrow.

Awesome.

 

[TheMink]

Really appreciate the answers Edmond and Others.

I really like having a firm grasp on one of my favorite universes.

 

[Jacob]

One small correction. Sauron didn't burn out his shapeshifting ability, it was lost when

Spoiler

Numenor was destroyed by Eru

. (Silmarillion Spoilers.) Whether it was a result of being at ground-zero of the event or something more supernatural is never explained.

Hmm, I suppose it's not explicitly stated, but I think we can put together the pieces from various sources to come up with a pretty solid explanation of why Sauron lost his shape-shifting ability. In Letter 211, Tolkien has this to say about Sauron's experience: "Sauron was, of course, 'confounded' by the disaster, and diminished (having expended enormous energy in the corruption of Númenor). He needed time for his own bodily rehabilitation, and for gaining control over his former subjects." I think this explains the statement you allude to, found in Appendix A to LOTR, that Sauron was "unable ever again to assume a form that seemed fair to men". This interpretation is also in keeping with the theme of decreasing spiritual power by (over)using it, which is what happened to Melkor/Morgoth in the First Age (cf. Morgoth's Ring).

 

[Veelk]

Edmond, I have a question about Ungoliant.

Eru created the Valar, of which Melkor was the greatest of, and when he defected, he created all the evil within Tolkien's world.

So what about Ungoliant? No one knows who created her, I got that much, but if it wasn't Melkor, and it almost certainly wasn't Eru, does that imply there are other powers similar to Eru that created her, or that maybe she is even simply an deity that always existed like Eru?

 

[TitusGroan]

I was always given to understand that Ungoliant was a corrupted Maiar spirit, similar to the Balrogs. It would explain why Spiders are so large and terrifying in Middle Earth, as well as how they can speak, as they're all descended from Ungoliant, and would have some of her Maiar heritage in their veins.

 

[whatsinaname]

Glad you are back, Edmond, I don't post much but I always enjoy reading your posts.

I wanted to chime in and say that last year I discovered the BBC radio adaptation of LOTR, and it is fantastic. This is the one where Ian Holm plays Frodo and Bill Nighy plays Sam. In many ways it is more faithful to the text than the movies, and yet it is remarkably similar to them in other ways (I think that Ian McKellen and Sean Astin, among others, must have studied this version when they were getting into character). Anyone who hasn't listened to this, I really recommend it. It's roughly twelve hours long and extremely engaging. If you have a mindless office job like me and can listen to headphones, the time really flies.

I listened to this on a recent road trip. Made the drive a lot easier. I loved Theoden, Faramir, Eowyn and Denethor's voices. The songs and verses were brilliant as well.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

Edmond, I have a question about Ungoliant.

Eru created the Valar, of which Melkor was the greatest of, and when he defected, he created all the evil within Tolkien's world.

So what about Ungoliant? No one knows who created her, I got that much, but if it wasn't Melkor, and it almost certainly wasn't Eru, does that imply there are other powers similar to Eru that created her, or that maybe she is even simply an deity that always existed like Eru?

It's one of those mysteries that Tolkien placed in the Legendarium. Just as there a missing links in conventional real world myths, so Tolkien did the same for what was essentially an attempt to give England a myth story on par with Welsh, Celtic legends, not mention the Northern myths etc.

As there is no definitive answer, many theories have been put forward. The following is one that I prescribe to as it certainly makes sense considering how Tolkien envisaged creation.

It also deals with Tom Bombadil too.

That Ungoliant was a byproduct of the initial weaving of Arda when Melkor's discord directly opposed Eru's will. Melkor's theme took precedence the second time out of the three occasions hence Ungoliant was created (the very antithesis to light; the darkness that consumes light). Then Eru rebounded and his wrath was known to all the Ainu and his chords triumphed over Melkor's discord hence Tom was created (the antithesis of the dark; the light, incorruptible).

To reinforce this, one must look to the statement in The Lord of the Rings about there been creatures in the depths who are old beyond measure. What are these? Nature spirits? Possibly. What are nature spirits? Remnants of the Music of the Ainur possibly. Products of the initial creation.

 

[Megalosaro]

I was always given to understand that Ungoliant was a corrupted Maiar spirit, similar to the Balrogs. It would explain why Spiders are so large and terrifying in Middle Earth, as well as how they can speak, as they're all descended from Ungoliant, and would have some of her Maiar heritage in their veins.

I dont think she was a maia. She was too powerful. After all, she was able to bind morgoth

 

[Veelk]

It's one of those mysteries that Tolkien placed in the Legendarium. Just as there a missing links in conventional real world myths, so Tolkien did the same for what was essentially an attempt to give England a myth story on par with Welsh, Celtic legends, not mention the Northern myths etc.

As there is no definitive answer, many theories have been put forward. The following is one that I prescribe to as it certainly makes sense considering how Tolkien envisaged creation.

It also deals with Tom Bombadil too.

That Ungoliant was a byproduct of the initial weaving of Arda when Melkor's discord directly opposed Eru's will. Melkor's theme took precedence the second time out of the three occasions hence Ungoliant was created (the very antithesis to light; the darkness that consumes light). Then Eru rebounded and his wrath was known to all the Ainu and his chords triumphed over Melkor's discord hence Tom was created (the antithesis of the dark; the light, incorruptible).

To reinforce this, one must look to the statement in The Lord of the Rings about there been creatures in the depths who are old beyond measure. What are these? Nature spirits? Possibly. What are nature spirits? Remnants of the Music of the Ainur possibly. Products of the initial creation.

Interesting theory, but doesn't that slightly contradict Tolkien's theme of diminution? Everything that is made from evil is lesser than it's creator. Orcs are a poor man's elves, Trolls are a poor man's Ents, Saruman is a Sauron-lite, Sauron is a Melkor wannabe, and so on...but Ungoliant at one point managed to overpower Melkor, who would have died if not for the assistance of his balrogs. If she was his creation, doesn't that mean she should have been weaker than he is?

 

[TitusGroan]

I dont think she was a maia. She was too powerful. After all, she was able to bind morgoth

Yeah, Dantes' explanation makes much more sense.

It's a shame. In the greener days of my youth, when the rivers ran clearer and the winds blew fresher, I was a Tolkien scholar to rival Dantes. I had read all the books, owned the Illustrated Guide To Tolkien, and even had an encyclopaedia of Middle Earth Flora and Fauna which I read cover to cover. I could list all the names of the Valar, tell you the difference between a Harfoot and a Fallohide, and even write out all the Dwarvish runes. Now I am but an old oak, my Tolkien lore crumbled away like leaves in autumn.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

Interesting theory, but doesn't that slightly contradict Tolkien's theme of diminution? Everything that is made from evil is lesser than it's creator. Orcs are a poor man's elves, Trolls are a poor man's Ents, Saruman is a Sauron-lite, Sauron is a Melkor wannabe, and so on...but Ungoliant at one point managed to overpower Melkor, who would have died if not for the assistance of his balrogs. If she was his creation, doesn't that mean she should have been weaker than he is?

After the destruction of the Two Trees he was locked in his phyical raiment, he hadn't yet drained his immense might in dominating his minions (although the process was underway), but in physical form he was vulnerable. A large humanoid form, that Sauron in time would replicate.

Ungoliant after devouring the stolen works of the Noldoli increased in size and her appetite became insatiable, even demanding the Silmarils that Melkor had stolen. So one can understand how he found himself overpowered, greatly underestimating the effect the Silmarils would have on Ungoliant.

 

[maharg]

After the destruction of the Two Trees he was locked in his phyical raiment, he hadn't yet drained his immense might in dominating his minions (although the process was underway), but in physical form he was vulnerable. A large humanoid form, that Sauron in time would replicate.

Ungoliant after devouring the stolen works of the Noldoli increased in size and her appetite became insatiable, even demanding the Silmarils that Melkor had stolen. So one can understand how he found himself overpowered, greatly underestimating the effect the Silmarils would have on Ungoliant.

Also in your theory I don't think that makes her the creation of Melkor, exactly. At no point could Melkor or even all the Ainur combined create the entire world/universe, except through Iluvatar. Everything created through their song was created with his power.

I like that theory btw. Interesting to think of Ungoliant and Bombadil being poles of each other, that had never occurred to me.

 

[898]

I think I only posted a few times but lurk whenever there is new discussion.
Good to have you back Dantès; and good to have the thread flowing.

-snip-

I'm thinking two or three a day, for example:

Monday - Of the Beginning of Days and Of Aulë and Yavanna
Tuesday - Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor and Of Thingol and Melian
Etc.

Regarding the Silmarillion read, I think the daily scheduling may be too aggressive for casual/first time readers. When you get behind its harder to gain momentum and the number of involved readers may drop off as peoples' schedules don't align. Giving a more lenient schedule will also give more time for digestion and thought during discussion.
I say all this as someone who started the Silmarillion over 10 years ago and didn't get 1/4 way through and never participated in a book club outside of school.

Perhaps larger chunks 2-3 times a week for those who have commitments?