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The New Board Game Thread (Newcomer Friendly)

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StoOgE

First tragedy, then farce.
The MSRP of Dominion is 45 dollars.

Generally the cost of a game is directly proportionate to the production cost for the publisher.

Not always, but typically you can expect the printing cost to be somewhere around 15-20% of the MSRP... but a whole lot of people have to take their slice between the printer and you buying it.

The artist has to get paid for their artwork, the designer for designing the title.. it has to be shipped freight overseas as most games are made in China or Europe. The publisher will (hopefully!) make a little bit of money, but has to sell to a wholesaler (and pay to ship it to their warehouse) who then sells the game to the store who has to pay rent, salary, taxes, electric bills, etc. Amazon can bypass a lot of that by selling a very high-volume of a lot of things, including board games. Your local store isn't going to sell 100 copies of Dominion this week, Amazon probably will sell a lot more than that.

Most board game stores have a catch 22 that they run into.

You can't stock the 10 "hot" games and only sell those because no one will come to your store. So you have to stock a lot of different sorts of games, which realizing that most of your profit is going to come from a handful of the "hot" titles.

A lot of board game stores also sell comics, miniatures and trading card games, and often the board games are one of their lower margin items.

It's a very interesting ecosystem that exists that I was basically wholly ignorant of until last year.

In order for game prices to drop you have to do one of two things:

1) Print a whole lot of the games so that the cost per copy drops like a rock.
2) Print a really cheap game with really cheap components.

These are the reasons you see Monopoly in stores for 20-25 bucks and TTR and Dominion cost a lot more. They are selling a lot less of those titles and the components are much higher quality.

The more niche a game is, the less it will sell and the higher the MSRP will have to be.

If you double your print run you cost per title can go down 20-30%, which means you can drop the price a bit and make a bit more money... but the risk is a small publisher like myself can't do that or you'll go bankrupt. If I had printed 20K copies of Tammany Hall I probably could have knocked the price to make a copy down about 3-4 dollars a copy and sold it for $50 MSRP instead of $60.

The likelyhood that I could have ever sold 20,000 copies of Tammany Hall at this point is approaching zero, and I certainly didn't have the money for that even after the Kickstarter did so well.

When a publisher prints a game (traditionally, non-KS) they are paying for the game usually 6 months before they can actually sell the game. So cash flow can really kill small companies, which forces lower print run sizes, and drives up the MSRP of the games from smaller publishers. It's also one of the reasons that you see small publishers keep returning to the Kickstarter well. Margins are about the same for Kickstarter and wholesale copies (since you normally have to pay to ship to backers), but because the money is up-front you can release games on a more aggressive time-scale.

I probably *should* have doubled our print run of Tammany Hall so that we could have stock for the next 12-24 months, but we simply didn't have the capital to tie up into the title at the time. So now we are re-printing Tammany Hall again already because we couldn't print what we needed to. This is the reason you see a lot of smaller publishers games sell out so quickly after release. Not to drive up demand, but simply because you can't risk printing 15-20K copies of a title that might only sell 2-3K if it's a dud.
 
Well its dumb to not play the game when you know that customer is just going to go away and buy it on amazon. "I'd rather go OOB than sell my games cheaper" is an irresponsible thing to say.

LFGS should get a better deal than amazon from the distributors anyway, they are basically giving free exposure to their games to the public for free. If you don't at least try to match amazon and OFGS prices then you are going to go OOB sooner or later, end of story. They should try to monetize from other sources.
 
LFGS get screwed in pricing. Usually the wholesale discount they get off the games they sell is around 40%, with larger orders they can get 45-50% at most usually. Only places like minimarket/coolstuff which buy multiple cases of a single game can get competitive discounts. Most stores can only afford to stock one or two copies of a game. They buy the game for 40% off retail from the distributors (and often have to pay shipping if not a large enough order), while they go online and see placed like coolstuff and amazon selling the same game for 30-35% off retail. They can't compete with that. I used to sell games out of my old business and I picked up my product locally thanks to having a distro center nearby, but even shopping around to other distributors, often could not get board games for more than 40% off without making $500+ purchase at once, and that would be like an extra 2% discount only for that.....

Lot of this is really at fault of the distributors though and not so much the publishers themselves, as most board games go through a distributor rather than being purchased direct from the publishing company. The distributors then determine who gets the best price, which of course is who buys the largest amount of a product.
 

AstroLad

Hail to the KING baby
I've always thought the game cafe idea was cool. Hope it works out and catches on. Much more friendly than most MTG-centric places.
 
I've always thought the game cafe idea was cool. Hope it works out and catches on. Much more friendly than most MTG-centric places.

That requires hiring actual competent staff. Most game shops are left to be run by kids who are there to play Magic instead of tending to customers. Or they are run by gamers themselves who figured it would be easy, and who have no business sense.
 

Evlar

Banned
I've always thought the game cafe idea was cool. Hope it works out and catches on. Much more friendly than most MTG-centric places.
It's thriving around here. One gaming group I sometimes attend has to make reservations for the private rooms at Cafe Mox weeks in advance. The public bar areas are perpetually packed.
 

AstroLad

Hail to the KING baby
It's thriving around here. One gaming group I sometimes attend has to make reservations for the private rooms at Cafe Mox weeks in advance. The public bar areas are perpetually packed.

When you go to a bookstore that has decent tables and food/beverages, this is exactly what I see. People really do place a premium on a nice space like this.
 
When you go to a bookstore that has decent tables and food/beverages, this is exactly what I see. People really do place a premium on a nice space like this.

Yup. I go to a local game store on Tuesdays. I *try* to buy stuff from there too, but its hard. Their prices range from MSRP to MSRP + 20%. =(
 
I've always thought the game cafe idea was cool. Hope it works out and catches on. Much more friendly than most MTG-centric places.

I work at one, its been pretty successful since we've opened and we do host FNM, but MTG isn't our focus. I teach games and play board games with people who come in, but most of my work involves after school programs. We have a couple hundred games, I know how to play about 90% of them, all the good ones and the bad ones. Oh god.
 
So my girlfriend and I finally got a chance to sit down and play Netrunner two weeks ago. After owning it for a couple months we were both eager to try it out. Unfortunately, we could not get into it at all, it just felt unnecessarily complex to us. Likely going to put it up for trade on BGG.
 

Piano

Banned
It's a fun game if you can get past the initial learning curve. The included instructions are awful - I'd try watching a video guide and then posting any additional questions you have.

It's far from elegant but the asymmetrical gameplay is quite interesting. Not one of my favorites, but definitely a good time.
 

Neverfade

Member
Eclipse is up for iPad. You currently have to go through an existing BDC game like Neuroshima Hex and find it from the Developer's Info.

Intro and interface is slick as goose shit. Looks like the bar has been raised yet again.

Edit: Spoke too soon. Text in tutorial doesn't look like its Retina. Boooooooooooo
 

AstroLad

Hail to the KING baby
It's a fun game if you can get past the initial learning curve. The included instructions are awful - I'd try watching a video guide and then posting any additional questions you have.

It's far from elegant but the asymmetrical gameplay is quite interesting. Not one of my favorites, but definitely a good time.
It's not simple but IMO it's quite elegantly done. Once you spend an hour and a couple plays learning the basics (including the timing charts) the game is a total breeze to play and you can focus all your attention on tough decisions, bluffing, etc. You guys want inelegant try out Call of Cthulhu or even Star Wars IMO (though it's pretty well rated).

All that said I'd never in my life try to teach it to a casual player and don't even play with my wife who's a fairly serious Euro player. The game is perfect for certain contexts and not so much for others. That is true for any LCG though in fairness Netrunner is about as noob friendly as they come (right down to the factions being very well balanced out of the box).
 
Eclipse is up for iPad. You currently have to go through an existing BDC game like Neuroshima Hex and find it from the Developer's Info.

Intro and interface is slick as goose shit. Looks like the bar has been raised yet again.

Edit: Spoke too soon. Text in tutorial doesn't look like its Retina. Boooooooooooo

I've never played Eclipse before, but is the ipad version worth $7.50?
 

mercviper

Member
I've never played Eclipse before, but is the ipad version worth $7.50?

Yes! It's still got a couple bugs, but it's really minor stuff that I stumbled into because I like to break things. Your overall gameplay probably won't be affected. The visuals aren't the BEST EVER but they're very decent and the music is excellent.

If you're still on the fence here's a video review for the iPad version.

http://boardgamegeek.com/blogpost/19078/ipad-video-review-eclipse-new-dawn-for-the-galaxy
 

Castef

Banned
So my girlfriend and I finally got a chance to sit down and play Netrunner two weeks ago. After owning it for a couple months we were both eager to try it out. Unfortunately, we could not get into it at all, it just felt unnecessarily complex to us. Likely going to put it up for trade on BGG.

Eh. One of the best 2 players card game ever, yet I aknowledge it is quite complex, expecially for newbies.

It is not "unnecesarily complex". It is complex. ;)
 
Played through the Eclipse tutorial and a round of a real game. My initial impression is that the app is well done but the UI feels a bit too small. I end up missing some information but I'm sure after a game or two I'll get used to it.
 

mercviper

Member
Played through the Eclipse tutorial and a round of a real game. My initial impression is that the app is well done but the UI feels a bit too small. I end up missing some information but I'm sure after a game or two I'll get used to it.

When zooming, if you zoom without touching any of the tiles on the board (empty space), you can see stats for the remaining hexes and influence borders for the existing civs. You may not actually need to zoom for that, and just have 2 fingers on empty space.
 

AstroLad

Hail to the KING baby
Eclipse on iPad is quite jazzy. Just remember that Big Daddy's has a bit of a wonky async implementation (so check your games every once in a while :)). I've played the game before, but afaict this is quite a nice way to learn a rather complex game. The tutorial gives you all the basics you need, but I'd recommend reading the in-game manual as well (which is actually very well customized for the digital version).
 
When zooming, if you zoom without touching any of the tiles on the board (empty space), you can see stats for the remaining hexes and influence borders for the existing civs. You may not actually need to zoom for that, and just have 2 fingers on empty space.
It's more the information on the sides of the screen, not the board itself. For example, it took me longer than I'd like to admit to find the tech board. It's all good though, I'd rather have a majority of the screen real estate devoted to the main board.
 

Palmer_v1

Member
Zombicide has become our go to board game recently. Even non-gamers take to it pretty easily, and everyone has fun since it's cooperative. I went to Adepticon to play Warmachine, but ended up playing a fair bit of Zombicide too. Seemed extremely popular and we had a lot of random foot traffic stopping to check it out and play when we had open spots. I missed out on the first kickstarter, but managed to get Dave, Nick, and El Cholo from the swag bags people were getting.

Resistance has also been fun recently. How similar is BSG, and did I recently see that there's a new BSG out?
 
Zombicide has become our go to board game recently. Even non-gamers take to it pretty easily, and everyone has fun since it's cooperative. I went to Adepticon to play Warmachine, but ended up playing a fair bit of Zombicide too. Seemed extremely popular and we had a lot of random foot traffic stopping to check it out and play when we had open spots. I missed out on the first kickstarter, but managed to get Dave, Nick, and El Cholo from the swag bags people were getting.

Resistance has also been fun recently. How similar is BSG, and did I recently see that there's a new BSG out?

The new BSG is for the 3rd expansion. BSG is good but far more complex than Resistance.
 
Resistance has also been fun recently. How similar is BSG, and did I recently see that there's a new BSG out?
Resistance is quite a bit different from BSG. The only similarity is there are hidden roles. Resistance is more akin to Werewolf or Mafia than anything else.

The new BSG you saw is for the new expansion. There are two available now and each expansion reflects a different season in the show. This latest one looks like it covers the last season as it gives you updated roles for existing players and a new goal card to reach (small BSG finale spoiler)
earth
. The BSG game is brilliant if you wanted to get a copy. If you are a fan of the show, it's a no brainer, you'll like it. If you've never seen the show you won't get the references in the game but it still doesn't stop it from being a good hidden role game.
 

jstevenson

Sailor Stevenson
Finally played my kickstarted copy of Tammany Hall this weekend.

fucking fantastic game. The only downer was we only had four, and one player didn't get it. It also was a downer because the other shark at the table basically neutralized me at the first election. So then I basically attacked him the rest of the game and helped my wife win, and the player who didn't get it spread his messing around to not just attacking my wife, but the other shark.

I may have only scored 8 points... but my wife won, and now she can't wait to play again.

A successful night, indeed
 
Finally played my kickstarted copy of Tammany Hall this weekend.

fucking fantastic game. The only downer was we only had four, and one player didn't get it. It also was a downer because the other shark at the table basically neutralized me at the first election. So then I basically attacked him the rest of the game and helped my wife win, and the player who didn't get it spread his messing around to not just attacking my wife, but the other shark.

I may have only scored 8 points... but my wife won, and now she can't wait to play again.

A successful night, indeed

For some reason, TH was very confusing for my group to pick up on. My wife ended up winning by having a very clear, non-offensive strategy at the beginning and following it through to the end, but at the end she said she still wasn't really clear how she won, and wasn't interested in playing it again. :lol The rest of us had tried a variety of strategies but it fell apart toward the end, with each of us cannibalizing each other.

Her strategy, by the way, was "get all the orange guys" (Germans). She had a massive pile of them at the end, and got all the late precincts where nobody could even really challenge her because she had so many votes stored away. The last round was a massacre.
 

AstroLad

Hail to the KING baby
For some reason, TH was very confusing for my group to pick up on. My wife ended up winning by having a very clear, non-offensive strategy at the beginning and following it through to the end, but at the end she said she still wasn't really clear how she won, and wasn't interested in playing it again. :lol The rest of us had tried a variety of strategies but it fell apart toward the end, with each of us cannibalizing each other.

Her strategy, by the way, was "get all the orange guys" (Germans). She had a massive pile of them at the end, and got all the late precincts where nobody could even really challenge her because she had so many votes stored away. The last round was a massacre.

I still haven't played TH haha (aiming for this month!) but isn't it basically designed in a way that you have to chop down the leader directly or you have a runaway problem? Maybe you guys were too nice. :)
 

StoOgE

First tragedy, then farce.
Great to hear that people are playing (and mostly) enjoying the game!

If someone has a giant pile of favors you've already failed :p

The "leader" is rarely the person who is leading in points, but typically the person with the most favor chips and set-up to win the immigration group bonuses. It can take a few games to figure out who is actually winning the game at any given time.

You all should have been challenging her in early elections and making her spend some of those favor chips so she didn't have the giant stack at the end of the election. Also, you all should have ganged up on her to take her out. It sounds like what most likely happened is everyone else was beating up on each other while she laid low and won picked up a relatively easy win.
 

parasight

Member
Picking up The Resistance: Avalon and Formula D this week. Wish Zombicide wasn't so expensive in Canada, but I guess I'll just wait for the new one to come out.
 
The "leader" is rarely the person who is leading in points, but typically the person with the most favor chips and set-up to win the immigration group bonuses. It can take a few games to figure out who is actually winning the game at any given time.
This. The immigrant bonuses are huge and can easily be game changers in later rounds. The thing I tell people when we play is, being the mayor may net you bonus points but you a) have the worst job and b) have painted a giant target on your back.
 
I still haven't played TH haha (aiming for this month!) but isn't it basically designed in a way that you have to chop down the leader directly or you have a runaway problem? Maybe you guys were too nice. :)

Well, actually what happened was I took the first round (and became mayor) and got ganged up on for a couple rounds straight. Ignoring the two other players who were amassing huge numbers of immigrant power. So really it seems like more about seeing who is amassing power, not necessarily who has the most points or the title at the beginning.

The "leader" is rarely the person who is leading in points, but typically the person with the most favor chips and set-up to win the immigration group bonuses. It can take a few games to figure out who is actually winning the game at any given time.

You all should have been challenging her in early elections and making her spend some of those favor chips so she didn't have the giant stack at the end of the election. Also, you all should have ganged up on her to take her out. It sounds like what most likely happened is everyone else was beating up on each other while she laid low and won picked up a relatively easy win.

Yup, this exactly. She didn't really confront anybody for the first several rounds, instead getting nearly every token of German support that became available. By the time we noticed what that meant, we were powerless to stop her :p

This is also why she said she wasn't even sure why she won, because her strategy was really just to get the orange pieces, and everything else just went her way automatically. In the last round she won every vote she was in easily, and had favor to spare.
 

blurrygil

Member
I don't know if I can exactly call it a card game like Dominion and Sentinels since those use solely cards. One reason I love War of Indines instead of Yomi by David Serlin is that it also uses a board (a very tiny, kinda cute board, a bigger one will be featured in Devestation) to track placement of the two characters, making spacing and area control also two important aspects of the game and having it closer to simulating digital fighting games.

I think so far the game is great. Each character has unique abilities and playstyles from each other, one character controls a small portal he places around the field to try and trap the opponent in, another brute forces himself through attacks to get few shots at the opponent that does heavy damage. The game system is also great, it has no random elements which makes each attack decision important. It is also exciting to know each round if you managed to out think your opponent and correctly predict their attack to counter with yours. There is also quite a lot of variations to play with, the game starts you simple with just styles and bases cards and the character ability. After that you can start adding things like special actions (bursts, finishers, cancels), arenas, tag teams, boss modes with EX and Almighty characters or multiplayer.

Not sure if that managed to sell well but the short story is, if you enjoy fighting games, or if you are after a quick 2 player game with a great system that has depth and is exciting, I seriously recommend War of Indines.

Did I complete the challenge? :p
If not, I can perhaps recommend the review by Tom Vasel of the Dice Tower which sold me on the game and also his preview of Devestation.

Edit: Neat detail for better experience, play your favorite fighting game music in the background. Blazblue soundtrack is my personal choice.

I'll have to have someone host a game with me. Perhaps I'll get a chance to play it at PAX or elsewhere prior to that. I notice you mention it being a "Quick" game, where other impressions have lead me to believe it's not so quick of a game. But I haven't played it, I digress. So I'm doing quite a bit of assuming.
 

Keasar

Member
I'll have to have someone host a game with me. Perhaps I'll get a chance to play it at PAX or elsewhere prior to that. I notice you mention it being a "Quick" game, where other impressions have lead me to believe it's not so quick of a game. But I haven't played it, I digress. So I'm doing quite a bit of assuming.

Well, "quick" being between 15 to 45 minutes depending on how fast people are at making their attack decisions and if you just play 1 duel or 3 duels in a whole match. Not to mention if you decide to play Tag Team battles or 3-fighter teams which can draw out the game even further. :p
 

blurrygil

Member
Well, "quick" being between 15 to 45 minutes depending on how fast people are at making their attack decisions and if you just play 1 duel or 3 duels in a whole match. Not to mention if you decide to play Tag Team battles or 3-fighter teams which can draw out the game even further. :p

Yeah. My base knowledge is coming from owning the UFS card game, mostly Street Fighter. All of that REALLY put me off "fighting" card games.
 

Keasar

Member
Yeah. My base knowledge is coming from owning the UFS card game, mostly Street Fighter. All of that REALLY put me off "fighting" card games.

Haven't played it myself but heard about it from others and it seem to be roughly the same thing, not that good. I will say though if there is anything that I think have managed to get close to a proper fighting experience, it is BattleCON. And from the reaction of the same people who have also played UFS, they seem to agree.
 

blurrygil

Member
In other news:

I simply couldn't help myself. Another day, another Kickstarter backed!

2741909f776e1548c93e84da332a8b2e_large.jpg


7c86c1aac642151341d59347c7180f7c_large.png


http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/370924922/krosmaster-arena-anime-miniatures-board-game

This one is pretty much ready to go and ships in June. I couldn't resist the cute, painted minis and the simplistic ruleset. My gf is going to adore this! I went in for $150 to get all of the expansions. :)

Also: It's LOCAL! Gotta support local companies. :D
 

mercviper

Member
In other news:

I simply couldn't help myself. Another day, another Kickstarter backed!

2741909f776e1548c93e84da332a8b2e_large.jpg


7c86c1aac642151341d59347c7180f7c_large.png


http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/370924922/krosmaster-arena-anime-miniatures-board-game

This one is pretty much ready to go and ships in June. I couldn't resist the cute, painted minis and the simplistic ruleset. My gf is going to adore this! I went in for $150 to get all of the expansions. :)

Also: It's LOCAL! Gotta support local companies. :D

You dastard, the time for it ran out already.

I guess it's better for my wallet that way though. :x
 
That's what it seemed to be. There were reDICulously over-powered character cards and abilities. But the worst part were the added rules you had to keep track of. There were SO many of them and were very complex.

The exclusive promo cards didn't help. Really rare tourny exclusives that were at times clearly unbalanced, forcing them to constantly errata and change rules.
 

Keasar

Member
The exclusive promo cards didn't help. Really rare tourny exclusives that were at times clearly unbalanced, forcing them to constantly errata and change rules.

Heard there was one card that had the ability to have the whole deck as your hand, so some people brought gigantic boxes filled with cards as their "deck".
 

StoOgE

First tragedy, then farce.
In other news:

I simply couldn't help myself. Another day, another Kickstarter backed!

2741909f776e1548c93e84da332a8b2e_large.jpg


7c86c1aac642151341d59347c7180f7c_large.png


http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/370924922/krosmaster-arena-anime-miniatures-board-game

This one is pretty much ready to go and ships in June. I couldn't resist the cute, painted minis and the simplistic ruleset. My gf is going to adore this! I went in for $150 to get all of the expansions. :)

Also: It's LOCAL! Gotta support local companies. :D

This Kickstarter is very odd to me.

The game exists in France and has for a while as a miniature game with random mini draws... but they are selling it in the US in pre-packaged sets and removing all rarity from it.

I don't know the relationship between the original publisher and the company bringing it to the US, but it seems like some enterprising French players could save a lot of money by simply importing figs from the US.

Also, from what I've heard the really expensive Kickstarters (the giant minis) were super-rare tournament prizes in Europe.

There were a lot of not very happy Frenchman last I looked into it.
 

blurrygil

Member
You dastard, the time for it ran out already.

I guess it's better for my wallet that way though. :x

Oh sorry! Haha...I should've posted that the backer time had expired. But no worries, it'll be available really soon, I'm sure. It's already finalized and everything, just needs to go to production.

Heard there was one card that had the ability to have the whole deck as your hand, so some people brought gigantic boxes filled with cards as their "deck".

Wait....wat?! Please enlighten us. 0_o;

The game exists in France and has for a while as a miniature game with random mini draws... but they are selling it in the US in pre-packaged sets and removing all rarity from it.

What do you mean by this? Like blind-box expansions?

I don't know the relationship between the original publisher and the company bringing it to the US, but it seems like some enterprising French players could save a lot of money by simply importing figs from the US.

Also, from what I've heard the really expensive Kickstarters (the giant minis) were super-rare tournament prizes in Europe.

There were a lot of not very happy Frenchman last I looked into it.

Interesting. I know about it being a French game. But personally, I'm glad they're trying to simply bring it over to the States (or anywhere outside of France). I didn't dive into the oversized characters simply due to the fact that they're not worth it to me.
 
Heard there was one card that had the ability to have the whole deck as your hand, so some people brought gigantic boxes filled with cards as their "deck".

I used to run tournaments for the game, and folks would leave the venue if you were giving out specific character prizes since they "sucked", they would then go around to other stores to see if the good characters were being up for prize. Everyone analyzed the characters for what was the most broken hence the most rare of character promos and would only play if you were giving them as the prize. Even free, they wouldn't bother with some. Lot of the promo prizes were simply not tested with current or future sets so when they came out players would break the game in half and they constantly had to try and fix things. And of course it was highly competitive to get these unique rares that they could flip on ebay for tons of money.

As a tourny organizer I got tons of free loot and actually made a ton selling off my freebies, it essentially paid for my card purchases. But the game quickly turned into a mess with the balance and the community.

Was a cool game that would be better in prepackaged LCG like format.
 

-tetsuo-

Unlimited Capacity
Anyone have some good experience with Game of Thrones? Watching this season makes me want to play and the last thing I picked up was The Lost Legion for Mage Knight. Me and my group love the long, complex games.
 
Anyone have some good experience with Game of Thrones? Watching this season makes me want to play and the last thing I picked up was The Lost Legion for Mage Knight. Me and my group love the long, complex games.

If you have 6 people, Game of Thrones (board game) is awesome, and really shines once everyone understands the game and can do some serious planning. In my experience the first playthroughs are kind of a mess because people don't realize they should be trying to get support vocally, so it ends up criminally underused.
 
I got to play Vinhos with a friend today, we were mostly just testing and learning the rules.


That game is so god damn confusingly simple it makes my head hurt. If people know the rules, I dont see why a 4 player game couldnt easily get done in 30 mins, haha.

It seems like a decent game, I was just really underwhelmed by it.
 
I got to play Vinhos with a friend today, we were mostly just testing and learning the rules.


That game is so god damn confusingly simple it makes my head hurt. If people know the rules, I dont see why a 4 player game couldnt easily get done in 30 mins, haha.

It seems like a decent game, I was just really underwhelmed by it.
Vinhos is great. Confusingly simple is a great way to describe it. No action in that game is really that hard. It's just that each action is a tiny piece in a larger engine and if you aren't straight on how you want your engine to produce then you'll have a hard time doing anything. I also like how you only get 12 actions total in a game. It makes you plan every action and not waste a single one.
 
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