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The Official Kobe vs MJ Fight Thread
- Thread starter DMczaf
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And you still don't respond to any of my FACTS.
Anyways, here's a one more for you:
Right now, Shaq ranges from above average to awesome offensively but defensively, he's a freakin' joke. To say Kobe is shit without Shaq is sheer ignorance. Have you even watched basketball besides these playoffs for the past 3 years? Even Lakers management knows Kobe is their #1 priority but a fan (and pretty casual one from reading your posts) knows better? No offense but LMAO!!!!
edit: What facts?
Anyways, here's a one more for you:
Right now, Shaq ranges from above average to awesome offensively but defensively, he's a freakin' joke. To say Kobe is shit without Shaq is sheer ignorance. Have you even watched basketball besides these playoffs for the past 3 years? Even Lakers management knows Kobe is their #1 priority but a fan (and pretty casual one from reading your posts) knows better? No offense but LMAO!!!!
edit: What facts?
Cloudy said:
I'm pretty sure I didn't say that douche. I'm a huge Shaq fan so I don't know what you are getting at. Are you looking for another Jordan douche to slam you into the ground? Trust me, you don't need that shit. I've watched more bball in my life than you have, so get off my nuts. Go attack someone else, you don't want my shit. Trust me junior.
Is that the best you can do? Why not explain how and why Kobe is shit w/o Shaq and how Kobe would be Pippen to Tmac. And back it up with stats and facts. And you say you've watched more hoops than me. Who knows? Maybe you have but your ignorant comments and inability to refute stats and facts prove you don't watch more than I do now (Note the present tense) 
edit: Oh and if my ftp works tomorrow, I will post visual evidence for you guys regarding Kobe and Tracy
edit: Oh and if my ftp works tomorrow, I will post visual evidence for you guys regarding Kobe and Tracy
Cloudy said:
Oh God. You're not seriously contending that Detroit's been doubling him all series, are you? :lol
Do you even know what doubling is? Hint: it's not when you start your drive and then when you get a step on your man, somebody comes over to help. That's called "help", or "rotations", not "doubling". They haven't even been doing much of THAT on Kobe. Prince has largely held him in check. Don't try to blame Kobe's abysmal shooting performances on things that didn't happen.
Cloudy said:Is that the best you can do? Why not explain how and why Kobe is shit w/o Shaq and how Kobe would be Pippen to Tmac. And back it up with stats and facts. And you say you've watched more hoops than me. Who knows? Maybe you have but your ignorant comments and inability to refute stats and facts prove you don't watch more than I do now (Note the present tense)
edit: Oh and if my ftp works tomorrow, I will post visual evidence for you guys regarding Kobe and Tracy
No it's not the best I can do, but it's the best I care to do. I could care less about your FTP. See I already lost my team, so why should I give a shit about what your team could do. Get your FTP to work, like I give a shit. I'm a Charlotte fan but you don't give a shit. And you haven't watched more bball than me konex. Sorry bro.
It's funny. Kobe fans think I'm against them, and JORDAN fans think I'm against them. Quite the quandry huh.
I hare both of your idols, but if I'm forced to choose, the Kobe fans can go to hell ok? Jordan didn't have anyone close to Shaq. But yet Jordan won 6 titles. Kobe has some work to do.
Loki said:Oh God. You're not seriously contending that Detroit's been doubling him all series, are you? :lol
Do you even know what doubling is? Hint: it's not when you start your drive and then when you get a step on your man, somebody comes over to help. That's called "help", or "rotations", not "doubling". They haven't even been doing much of THAT on Kobe. Prince has largely held him in check. Don't try to blame Kobe's abysmal shooting performances on things that didn't happen.
God. I know you aren't talking about the Piston fans. They won't follow you. Why even bother? Fuck them.
Besides game 1, they've been helping (with Sheed) and doubling Kobe (they "doubled" him almost everytime he had the ball tonight) Maybe you'd have seen it if you actually watched the game
And don't try to dissect my posts if you can't dispute the overall point. The Pistons know which Laker can do the most damage to them and it's not Shaq...
And don't try to dissect my posts if you can't dispute the overall point. The Pistons know which Laker can do the most damage to them and it's not Shaq...
DJ_Tet said:
Dude all I asked was for you to support your initial statement of "Kobe is shit w/o Shaq" Seems like you can't so drop it. The FTP stuff is for everyone in this thread (yeah we actually post here and discuss these things in the regular fucking season too
)I'm not a bandwagon fan so I'm not gonna root for a team I don't normally root fot just cos they are in the finals. Plus they are playing (and beating) "my team"
Cloudy said:Maybe you'd have seen it if you actually watched the game
I'd say the Pistons have been giving equal defensive attention to Kobe and Shaq. In both cases, they've trusted their defenders to cover them alone (Prince and Wallace), but they help as best they can if the initial defender gets beat. Kobe has not been "doubled all series". As for what happened tonight, who knows-- I didn't see the game, as you noted. But you did say "in this series", not "tonight".
But you did say "in this series", not "tonight".
It was ON tonight, man. Just read a recap or something. I thought Kobe played under control. He could have forced bad shots (not that he didn't once or twice) but he passed to the open guys and they just kept clanking. He had 27 attempts in each of the first 2 games and 13 tonight btw....
FrenchMovieTheme
Member
hate to say it koney (actually i dont hate to say it) but its true that kobe owes a lot of his success to shaq. now, did shaq somehow help him hit that unbelieveable 3 at the end of game 2? no. would they have even been in a situation to WIN that game without shaq? would they even be in the finals? would they even have beaten the rockets? would they even be a top 6 seed in the west? the answer to all of those questions is no. hate him or fucking despise him, shaq is the key for the lakers. do you know how BADLY the lakers would be abused in the west on defense without shaq in the middle? do you know how easily a team like the spurs or twolves would have put the lakers on complete lockdown without having to guard oneal?
i know you like kobe, but look at this realistically: the lakers ARE NOT kobes team. kobe is pippen, pippen is kobe! that is just the reality of the situation. will kobe ever win a championship when he is the focal point, when he is the "jordan" of the team? time will tell, but i'd be willing to bet against it. he is too easy to shut down when teams make him pass the ball or hound him, imagine how often teams could do that without shaq around.
i know you like kobe, but look at this realistically: the lakers ARE NOT kobes team. kobe is pippen, pippen is kobe! that is just the reality of the situation. will kobe ever win a championship when he is the focal point, when he is the "jordan" of the team? time will tell, but i'd be willing to bet against it. he is too easy to shut down when teams make him pass the ball or hound him, imagine how often teams could do that without shaq around.
Optimistic
Member
DJ_Tet said:
For some reason I find that maxim hilarious.
mightynine
Member
skinnyrattler said:
The sad thing is, he's not the worst analyst I've ever heard. In fact, he can make very good points and the occasions where he's NOT screaming them. In fact, I really enjoy that Old Skool/Nu Skool segment they do on Sunday mornings with him and the other guy whose name escapes me at the moment.
That said, ol' Screamin' came off like he couldn't give the Pistons credit even if they beat the Lakers by 50. At least Greg Anthony was right there the whole time and defending the Pistons, while sounding appropiately flabbergasted that Smith wouldn't give the Pistons some credit.
And who does Jackson pull off the bench to surprise the Lakers now? Dee-troit was ready for Walton in this game...3 fouls in 5 minutes? What do you do against this defense? I admit, I haven't watched much NBA this season, but that defense is impressing me.
FrenchMovieTheme said:
You guys who only watch hoops in the playoffs make me laugh. The Lakers have NOT been Shaq's team for 4 plus years now (They've been Shaq n Kobe's team). If you actually watch the games, you'd know. Giving Shaq credit fot Kobe's clutchness cos he managed to hit a fucking ft? Umm, Shaq BETTER hit that ft cos I'd get 10 kids off the street who would. If Payton didn't score his 2 points in game 3, would the Lakers have been in position to win? I guess that makes GP the reason they won, right? LOL
You say would they have beat the Rockets, Spurs and Pups w/o Shaq? Umm, who carried the team through all 3 of those series (and the entire fucking season) leading them in pts and assists? Who single-handedly got them the 2nd seed on the last day of the season? (don't ask me how, look it up) They both need to play well for LA to win and if you're gonna say Kobe is shit w/o Shaq, you gotta call it the other way as well. Not like Shaq has won shit with anyone else.
Oh and for the misguided folks who make Tmac > Kobe comments. Watch this...
http://www.cs.wayne.edu/~cs3852/ORLvsLAL-03-16/
Pls don't spread the link outside this thread
Wow, DJ and Cloudy, calm down
I can also understand what DJ means, being a Hornets fan since '93 (when I was 5; that's my first memory of them, at least). It was hard seeing us with the great teams (like Zo, LJ, Mugsy, etc.), getting so close to the Finals, but falling short
But hey, that's all a part of the game.
DJ_Tet said:
I can also understand what DJ means, being a Hornets fan since '93 (when I was 5; that's my first memory of them, at least). It was hard seeing us with the great teams (like Zo, LJ, Mugsy, etc.), getting so close to the Finals, but falling short
But hey, that's all a part of the game.I am sick of the Kobe haters and the Kobe debates, start some other thread for that. It should go right next to the Jordan Love thread, because for whatever reason Jordan love goes hand in hand with Kobe hate. Anyways, it is time for Phil to start to coach the Lakers and it looks like Malone might be done (he should be if he can't play). You can't hurt the team by keeping someone on the floor who can't win. Phil Jackson will come back with an inevitable adjustment Sunday to get Kobe and Shaq more open and hopefully he can free up the offense, it is time for him to earn those big bucks. You could just see the Lakers had no clue on what to do against the Pistons scheme last night, big props to Larry. And for all the talk about whether Kobe or Shaq is more valuable, I actually think Malone is the MVP for the Lakers this year. Whenever he is playing and healthy they are a totally different team. But, no time for excuses (unlike all the bitches who populate this forum who would have been complaining if the Lakers had the sort of FT advantage that the Pistons have, of course I won't sink to that level I will give the Pistons the props they are due). Time for Shaq and Kobe to put up or shut up. I also think that D Fish should stay benched unless he is at least 80%. It sucks because K Rush can't handle any pressure, but that is up to Phil to coach and figure something out not to whine about his players being injured. Fish and Malone were hurting their team last night more then they were helping, moreso Malone then Fisher, but you can tell Fish isn't ready to play these days. I still think Slava can do a decent job on Rasheed who is dumb enough by himself to take himself out of the game. The Lakers really only have one PF now so Slava and Shaq have to be really careful about picking up any fouls. Still, as always I believe. Seen too many Laker miracles to not have any faith. Really, the Lakers only need to win one game in Detroit and get their shit together in LA. And as always.....
I BELIEVE!!!!!
I BELIEVE!!!!!
http://www.cs.wayne.edu/~cs3852/kobe3ptMIX_BDG.wmv
Me too, man. Everyone thought they were dead against SA as well. Hell, I remember them getting blown out by 33 in the 2000 finals
Cloudy said:http://www.cs.wayne.edu/~cs3852/kobe3ptMIX_BDG.wmv
Me too, man. Everyone thought they were dead against SA as well. Hell, I remember them getting blown out by 33 in the 2000 finals
It is up to Phil now man. Not that it is the most impossible task in the world, he has two of the greatest players of all time on the same team. He should be able to think of some way to get the Lakers to score. I don't doubt Phil. Like I said, the Lakers only need one. Two would be nicer though.
Just so Konex doesn't have any illusions about who has been carrying whom during these playoffs, allow me to quote the most frequently looked at stat by coaches and analysts in determining a player's value to a team, the +/- stats:
For the 2004 playoffs:
Kobe:
On-court: +4.4 (Lakers outscore their opponets by an average of 4.4 points when Kobe's on the floor)
Off-court: -9.1 points (LA has been outscored by their opponents by an average of 9.1 points when Kobe's off the floor)
TOTAL +/- : +13.5 points
Shaq:
On-court: +7.8
Off-court: -27.1
TOTAL +/- : +34.9 points
Let's look at that again:
Kobe's +/- : +13.5 points
Shaq's +/- : +34.9 points
13.5 vs. 34.9....now who is more valuable to the team? Who "carries" whom?
Just so you know. The +/- isn't the only important statistic, but it's the one that most good coaches tend to look at when comparing players' value to their respective teams, as heard in numerous interviews.
For the 2004 playoffs:
Kobe:
On-court: +4.4 (Lakers outscore their opponets by an average of 4.4 points when Kobe's on the floor)
Off-court: -9.1 points (LA has been outscored by their opponents by an average of 9.1 points when Kobe's off the floor)
TOTAL +/- : +13.5 points
Shaq:
On-court: +7.8
Off-court: -27.1
TOTAL +/- : +34.9 points
Let's look at that again:
Kobe's +/- : +13.5 points
Shaq's +/- : +34.9 points
13.5 vs. 34.9....now who is more valuable to the team? Who "carries" whom?
Just so you know. The +/- isn't the only important statistic, but it's the one that most good coaches tend to look at when comparing players' value to their respective teams, as heard in numerous interviews.
Loki said:
The biggest flaw with that when considering Shaq's game is that Shaq can't even play for an entire 48 minutes anymore and he doesn't play defense or rebound like he should. No doubt that a big man makes more of a difference, the same can be said of your beloved Jordan who could never carry a shitty team, while centers like Shaq, Robinson, and Hakeem have taken crappy teams to the playoffs (Hakeem even won a ring). It will always be a big man's league, the only problem is there are not that many true big men left anymore. And seriously, we need a Kobe thread.
I call bullshit on that, Loki. Anyone who actually watches the games will tell you Kobe has been the Lakers MVP this postseason (and season). Anyone with half a brain could tell you the Lakers would be giving up points with Shaq out cos they have no fucking backup center and the teams take that shit to the rack when he's out lol
Don't try to use bogus stats, dude. Why not check who's leading the team in pts (especially 4th quarter pts), assists, steals and ft% this postseason (and the last 2 seasons)?
Don't try to use bogus stats, dude. Why not check who's leading the team in pts (especially 4th quarter pts), assists, steals and ft% this postseason (and the last 2 seasons)?
Cloudy said:
i wouldn't say that. People have this misguided notion that one guy has to be the reason for an entire team's success. With some very rare exceptions (Jordan's 6th ring, everytime Hakeem laced it up), it is the team that wins the game. Kobe is the best player on the Lakers right now no doubt, but they can't win shit without Shaq. And they will have problems winning without Malone (though as always I still believe). Kobe gets the credit for a lot of the close wins because he is their one and only option in the fourth most of the time, but only a good team would be able to keep it close for Kobe to take over in the fourth.
Ninja Scooter
Member
i too am getting tired of the Kobe/Jordan debates, but i will leave them with these two points:
1)Why the Kobe haters (and even the fanatics i guess) seem to feel that Kobe's path towards potential greatness (even possible GOAT status) goes strictly through Jordan. People always will bring up Jordan's stats to compare his to point for point to Kobe, FG%, scoring, assists...WHY? Jordan seemed to acheive it without scoring as much as Kareem, without dominating as much as Wilt, without winning as early or often as Magic or Larry. He built his legacy in his own way. I mean, i guess i can kinda see it because of all the Jordan comparisons, but i guess its because i was never one of hte people that felt Jordan was FAR AND AWAY the goat. I always put him in the upper pantheon of NBA greats, alongside Wilt, Magic, Larry, and Kareem. They are all in the same company imo, and if Kobe has 10 more years of playing the way he has been, there's no doubt he can reach that status as well.
2) For all those who say "imagine if Jordan had a bigman like SHaq", if you think for one second that Jordan and his SEars Tower sized ego would have deferred to Shaq for as long as Kobe has (when, realistically, he could have demanded a trade and gone to his own team when he was 21), than i don't know what to say to you. Its a moot point to say how great Jordan would have been playing alongside Shaq, cause it never would have happened.
1)Why the Kobe haters (and even the fanatics i guess) seem to feel that Kobe's path towards potential greatness (even possible GOAT status) goes strictly through Jordan. People always will bring up Jordan's stats to compare his to point for point to Kobe, FG%, scoring, assists...WHY? Jordan seemed to acheive it without scoring as much as Kareem, without dominating as much as Wilt, without winning as early or often as Magic or Larry. He built his legacy in his own way. I mean, i guess i can kinda see it because of all the Jordan comparisons, but i guess its because i was never one of hte people that felt Jordan was FAR AND AWAY the goat. I always put him in the upper pantheon of NBA greats, alongside Wilt, Magic, Larry, and Kareem. They are all in the same company imo, and if Kobe has 10 more years of playing the way he has been, there's no doubt he can reach that status as well.
2) For all those who say "imagine if Jordan had a bigman like SHaq", if you think for one second that Jordan and his SEars Tower sized ego would have deferred to Shaq for as long as Kobe has (when, realistically, he could have demanded a trade and gone to his own team when he was 21), than i don't know what to say to you. Its a moot point to say how great Jordan would have been playing alongside Shaq, cause it never would have happened.
Cloudy said:
dude, don't get aggrivated with me, I haven't been participating in this current argument but I don't see it as reasonable to question whether I even watch basketball.
And your constant "he shoots better cause all he does is dunk" thing is stupid. My comment was more about Kobe's often poor shot selection, not that Shaq beats his % by nearly 20.
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