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The Official Kobe vs MJ Fight Thread

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levious said:
dude, don't get aggrivated with me, I haven't been participating in this current argument but I don't see it as reasonable to question whether I even watch basketball.

And your constant "he shoots better cause all he does is dunk" thing is stupid. My comment was more about Kobe's often poor shot selection, not that Shaq beats his % by nearly 20.

I agree it is a relevant argument, Shaq is so dominant that people have resort to other moves such as flopping or hacking to stop him. The problem is that these cheap tactics are becoming more effective the older he gets. His FG% is ridiculous, but you also have to factor in his terrible FT shooting (he shoots a crazy amout of FTs each game) and the number of times he picks up cheap offensive fouls because he can't adopt his game (or injuries won't let him). If you only look at the FG% it makes sense to question why Shaq doesn't shoot the ball 70 times a game, but as usual the stats don't tell the whole story.
 
Cloudy said:
I call bullshit on that, Loki. Anyone who actually watches the games will tell you Kobe has been the Lakers MVP this postseason (and season). Anyone with half a brain could tell you the Lakers would be giving up points with Shaq out cos they have no fucking backup center and the teams take that shit to the rack when he's out lol

Don't try to use bogus stats, dude. Why not check who's leading the team in pts (especially 4th quarter pts), assists, steals and ft% this postseason (and the last 2 seasons)?

LOL! The Kobe fans are in TOTAL denial! Denying the value of the +/- stats? Oh man, you guys are hysterical. Mike Fratello, Doug Collins, Larry Brown, Jeff Van Gundy and Rick Carlisle have all said in interviews that the +/- stats are the most important stat when determining the value of a player to a team.


"Bogus stats", he says. LOL I'm seriously dying over here. You're not saying that I made these stats up, are you? You're totally neglecting their significance when you cite such stats as "4th quarter points" etc. Nobody is saying that Kobe isn't infinitely more CLUTCH than Shaq, but he's not more valuable, and he's not what makes this team go.


i wouldn't say that. People have this misguided notion that one guy has to be the reason for an entire team's success. With some very rare exceptions (Jordan's 6th ring, everytime Hakeem laced it up), it is the team that wins the game. Kobe is the best player on the Lakers right now no doubt, but they can't win shit without Shaq. And they will have problems winning without Malone (though as always I still believe). Kobe gets the credit for a lot of the close wins because he is their one and only option in the fourth most of the time, but only a good team would be able to keep it close for Kobe to take over in the fourth.

I've never said that ONLY Shaq is responsible for LA's success, but Konex was saying that Kobe has "carried" LA during the postseason, when the stats CLEARLY show that this isn't the case. Your last two sentences are exactly what I'm talking about-- yes, Kobe will get a lot of credit for LA victories when it's close, because he's undeniably their clutchest player and makes plays in the 4th. Unfortunately for Konex, that's not the only thing that makes a player "better" or "more valuable to a team". Would Kobe even BE in those positions if not for Shaq? The -27.1 point stat when Shaq's off the floor says otherwise. These stats are inarguable, and you really expose yourself when you dismiss them, when most top coaches take them as an excellent indicator of a player's worth and value to a team.


The biggest flaw with that when considering Shaq's game is that Shaq can't even play for an entire 48 minutes anymore and he doesn't play defense or rebound like he should

The +/- stats say otherwise (in terms of the effect this supposed "lack of defense and rebounding" has on those stats). Shaq is also averaging 42 minutes in the playoffs. What were you saying again? SO those +/- stats are for 42 minutes per game. That's enough of the game for him to be a HELL of a lot bigger factor than Kobe based on the +/-. You act as if he's playing 20-25 minutes. Sure, Shaq's +/- would be even LARGER if he was playing defense or rebounding like a couple of years ago, but it's still a 34.9 point differential. Think about that.

the same can be said of your beloved Jordan who could never carry a shitty team, while centers like Shaq, Robinson, and Hakeem have taken crappy teams to the playoffs (Hakeem even won a ring)

This is a joke, right? Hakeem had Drexler, Cassell, Horry, Mario Elie, Kenny Smith, Vernon Maxwell, and Otis Thorpe. That's an absolutely STACKED team-- you're nuts if you think otherwise. Shaq carried a "shitty team" to the title? He had Kobe (nobody is saying he's not incredible), Horry, Shaw, Fox, Harper etc. Again, a loaded team-- at least more loaded than Chicago was, unless you're saying that Pippen > Kobe, which I doubt you are. Robinson? He had Elie, Sean Elliot, Terry Porter, Steve Kerr, Malik Rose (who used to be good), Antonio Daniels, Jerome Kersey, and a little guy named Tim Duncan, who when he finishes his career is going to go down as one of the top 10 players in NBA history. So yeah, David Robinson carried a "shitty" team. You guys make me laugh. Any ONE of those supporting casts are much better than anything Chicago ever had, period.


And if you were talking about merely taking them to the playoffs, well, Jordan carried the Bulls into the 2nd round and eastern conference finals all by his lonesome when they were still decidedly shitty (Pippen and Grant hadn't developed yet). But whatever-- these are tangents, which result from you trying to deflect the OBVIOUS implications of the stats I cited.


Just ignore the above and focus on how to better try to mitigate the conclusions drawn from the +/- stats, which are UNIVERSALLY RECOGNIZED as the leading indicator of a player's worth and value to a team. It's really amazing how you guys try to spin it (particularly Konex). Whatever floats your boat-- and you guys think I have my head buried in the sand? :lol
 
All right, you assholes.

I would split all the Kobe/Jordan vitriol into a separate thread, except there's about 80 billion posts to go through and I'll be damned if I waste my valuable time reading each one. So this is what I'm going to do.

- Rename this thread "The Official Kobe vs MJ Fight Thread".
- Unsticky it. If you want to clown each other from now until Christ's return, you can find this thread and put your commentary in here.
- Create a new NBA Finals thread strictly reserved for NBA Finals commentary and discourse.

The first person - I mean the very first, I don't care how much I like you personally or enjoy your posts - to mention Michael Jordan in the new NBA Finals thread will be banned for six months. No appeal. If I see "MJ, #23, Bulls > Lakers, Kobe > MJ, more rings at age 28"...any of that bullshit, you're gone until December. Try me if you think I'm kidding.
 
These stats are inarguable, and you really expose yourself when you dismiss them, when most top coaches take them as an excellent indicator of a player's worth and value to a team.

Those stats are affected by LA's lack of depth and no interiror defense besides Shaq. When he's out, they get whored in the paint. I don't dispute Shaq's value to the team but he has not meant more than Kobe for a while. I'll even give you equal but Kobe has carried them in this postseason. But hey, I actually watch the games :)

Konex your at WSU and a Lakers fan?!?!?!? You have shamed us

I'm not gonna jump on the wagon now after I ignored them since Hill left :p
 
This is a joke, right? Hakeem had Drexler, Cassell, Horry, Mario Elie, Kenny Smith, Vernon Maxwell, and Otis Thorpe. That's an absolutely STACKED team-- you're nuts if you think otherwise. Shaq carried a "shitty team" to the title? He had Kobe (nobody is saying he's not incredible), Horry, Shaw, Fox, Harper etc. Again, a loaded team-- at least more loaded than Chicago was, unless you're saying that Pippen > Kobe, which I doubt you are. Robinson? He had Elie, Sean Elliot, Terry Porter, Steve Kerr, Malik Rose (who used to be good), Antonio Daniels, Jerome Kersey, and a little guy named Tim Duncan, who when he finishes his career is going to go down as one of the top 10 players in NBA history. So yeah, David Robinson carried a "shitty" team. You guys make me laugh. Any ONE of those supporting casts are much better than anything Chicago ever had, period.

I was talking about Hakeem's first championship team that didn't have Drexler. And notice how well all of those guys did without Hakeem, Hakeem was that entire team if you think otherwise it is you who are delusional. The guy wasn't just their entire offense either, he was their entire defense. I have never seen a guy dominate a game on both ends the way Hakeem did (totally serious here, and I started watching basketball in 84 so I can't comment on guys before Hakeem). And when I brought up Shaq and Robinson, I was talking about how they took lottery teams to the playoffs, Jordan never did that (and don't even try to make it like Pippen and Grant were some sort of lottery rejects that Jordan carried on his back). This isn't taking anything away from Jordan or Kobe, but it is undeniable that big men have a bigger impact on a team then guards do. You stick Hakeem, Robinson, or Shaq on the worst team in the league and they win 50 games the next year. You stick MJ or Kobe on the worst team in the league and with their best effort they might get to 40.
 
Cloudy said:
Kobe shot 44% this season. Find me another star volume shooter (and a perimeter player) who was much better. Hint: You can't

Stop making up reasons why Kobe "sucks", folks...

Ray Allen, 23 ppg (one less than Kobe), 44% from the field. Shouldn't Kobe's FG% be higher than Ray's, seeing as how he's so much "faster and more athletic"? Tracy McGrady averaged 32 points on 46% shooting last year-- is he better than Kobe (as an aside, TMac's performance last year is one of the most obvious reasons why Jordan would be able to average 32+ on 50% shooting nowadays, because Tracy is nowhere NEAR Jordan in terms of offensive skills/physical talent). But anyway, I wasn't making the FG% argument-- Kobe's FG% isn't ATROCIOUS by any stretch of the imagination. Back to those +/- numbers... ;)


And I've never said he sucked at ALL. I've always maintained that he's one of the top 3 or 4 players in the league and the closest thing to Jordan SINCE Jordan. I just take exception to some of the hyperbole thrown around by people such as yourself and all the Kobe > MJ, Kobe = GOAT stuff etc.


I've never taken anything away from Kobe, but neither will I give him credit for that which is not entirely his doing, or more credit than I feel he deserves AT THIS POINT.
 
Ray Allen, 23 ppg (one less than Kobe), 44% from the field. Shouldn't Kobe's FG% be higher than Ray's, seeing as how he's so much "faster and more athletic"?

Now you've really proved you don't watch. Ray played about half the season. Notice he doesn't even qualify for the ppg list...
 
Cloudy said:
Kobe shot 44% this season. Find me another star volume shooter (and a perimeter player) who was much better. Hint: You can't

Stop making up reasons why Kobe "sucks", folks...

um, argh?

I don't think Kobe sucks, nor was I trying to say so. You were the one pimping his stats, and I merely pointed out that you left out his ugly duckling stat... and I certainly wasn't referring to regular season, since that's not relevant at all at this point.

Please don't project other people's arguments on me. It's not you vs. GA.
 
Cloudy said:
Now you've really proved you don't watch. Ray played about half the season. Notice he doesn't even qualify for the ppg list...

No, I didn't know that. I'll make no excuses-- I don't watch Seattle Sonic basketball. :D


Kobe DID only play 9 more games than Ray did this season, though (65 vs. 56). I think it's a stretch to say that Ray's #'s would've dipped all that much if he played another 9 games; if you do, you'd also have to say the same about Kobe and his 65 games versus other marquee players who played 70+ games.
 
Thank God we have a true NBA thread so I can avoid the Jordophiles when I want to talk about basketball. :D

Seriously people, Jordan's time is over, you all look pathetic hanging on to him the way you do. Find some new hero to worship, or at least make it official and start the Church of Jordan.
 
Wow, I'm surprised he got in 56. I thought it was like 40 something. Plus Kobe played one minute in a game before he got hurt (against Seattle) where his average was 0 across the boards. It really crapped his stats :p
 
I was talking about Hakeem's first championship team that didn't have Drexler. And notice how well all of those guys did without Hakeem, Hakeem was that entire team if you think otherwise it is you who are delusional. The guy wasn't just their entire offense either, he was their entire defense. I have never seen a guy dominate a game on both ends the way Hakeem did (totally serious here, and I started watching basketball in 84 so I can't comment on guys before Hakeem).

WHAT THE FUCK? DUDE WE CAN'T AGREE! YOU HATE HAKEEM! YOU HAVE TO! ARGH! :p
Just kidding dude.




Just for the hell of it...which of these teams would you take (I'll take 8 players from the Bulls first championship run, Rockets two titles, Bulls 2nd run, and Lakers 1st run)

Shut it shinobi, the 99 Spurs didn't win back to back, so they're out of the arguement.

Rockets 94-95 Team
Starters:
Hakeem Olajuwon
Robert Horry
Mario Elie
Clyde Drexler
Sam Cassell
Bench:
Kenny Smith
Vernon Maxwell
Carl Hererra

Bulls 91-93 team
Starters:
Bill Cartwright
Horrace Grant
Scottie Pippen
Michael Jordan
BJ Armstrong
Bench:
Will Purdue
John Paxson
Scott Williams

Bulls 96-98 team
Starters:
Luc Longley
Dennis Rodman
Scottie Pippen
Michael Jordan
Ron Harper
Bench:
Toni Kukoc
Steve Kerr
Jud Buechler

Lakers 2000-2002 team
Starters:
Shaquille O'Neal
Robert Horry
Rick Fox
Kobe Bryant
Derek Fisher
Bench:
Devean George
Ron Harper
Brian Shaw
 
bionic77 said:
I was talking about Hakeem's first championship team that didn't have Drexler. And notice how well all of those guys did without Hakeem, Hakeem was that entire team if you think otherwise it is you who are delusional. The guy wasn't just their entire offense either, he was their entire defense. I have never seen a guy dominate a game on both ends the way Hakeem did (totally serious here, and I started watching basketball in 84 so I can't comment on guys before Hakeem). And when I brought up Shaq and Robinson, I was talking about how they took lottery teams to the playoffs, Jordan never did that (and don't even try to make it like Pippen and Grant were some sort of lottery rejects that Jordan carried on his back). This isn't taking anything away from Jordan or Kobe, but it is undeniable that big men have a bigger impact on a team then guards do. You stick Hakeem, Robinson, or Shaq on the worst team in the league and they win 50 games the next year. You stick MJ or Kobe on the worst team in the league and with their best effort they might get to 40.

Those guys were all noted players both before and after their Houston run. Cassell? Still doing it. Horry? A critical component of several championship teams (doesn't he have 6 rings now?). Mario Elie was always a solid 12-15 ppg scorer and one of the best defenders in the league. Kenny Smith was a good scorer who could run a club. Vernon Maxwell was considered the top bench guy in the league for a long time, and was instant offense (much like how Bobby Jackson is viewed today).

How are you saying that "Jordan never took lottery teams to the playoffs" by himself? He took Chicago to the playoffs, and into the second and third rounds before Pippen and Grant were ANY sort of decent players by ANYONE'S account. If you think Pippen came in as some talented, heralded rookie, you're mistaken. Ditto for Grant. By 1990, they had developed into competent players, but not before.


And, as the most damning evidence that Jordan "wouldn't have taken a lottery team to the playoffs", or that they "wouldn't win 50 games with him", check out Jordan at age 39, coming to a Washington team that had won 19 games the previous season. Jordan comes in and they win 37, which would have been around 43-46 if Jordan didn't go down with an injury in late February. Let's be realistic here-- that's the worst team in the league, and they would've won 40+ games with a 39-40 year old Jordan. You think a 25-27 year old Jordan wouldn't have taken them to 50 wins, which is only 5-8 more than they would've won with the 40 year old MJ? Be realistic dude. Washington was also in 6th place in the Eastern Conference Playoff race before Jordan got hurt, so there goes the whole "can't take a lottery team to the playoffs" thing. Yes, this is speculation, because he DID get hurt, and WAS out, but I think you'll admit that it is feasible speculation considering what Washington did when he was playing.


Pippen and Grant were garbage before the 1989-1990 season, and any analyst will tell you that. Did Chicago not get into the playoffs before that? Did they not get into the second round before that? Yes, they did.


It's also funny that Jordan is considered the most dominant player of the last 25 years along with Shaq, and is considered by most analysts and coaches to have been the player who's had the biggest impact on his team and the game, and yet you say that a guy like David Robinson had a bigger impact than MJ. lol That's rich.


Hakeem had a few UNBELIEVABLE seasons (and I'm not taking anything away from him-- he was the best player in the world those 2 years). When he was dominant during those championship runs, that was him in his PRIME. You forget that he had about 9 seasons where his name wasn't mentioned in the same BREATH as Jordan's when it came to dominance or impacting their respective teams. Remember that.
 
Jordan was lottery pick and the Bulls were still a lottery pick after his rookie year. Robinson was a lottery pick (Spurs won 19 or 20 games I believe), and they never went below 50 until Robinson got hurt and they picked up TD. I don't recall how Shaq did his first season, but I believe he added like 20 games to his teams win column. I believe the Dream did the same. And Loki, you are seriously insane dude. Just give it up now and start the Church of Jordan. I know how you only selectively see through your Jordan tinted goggles. I forgot about the Wizards, I will give Jordan props for that he almost turned them around (even though he was a terrible GM). AND I gave Jordan props for the 98 championships when he was the only one with anything left, Pippen was past his prime at this point and Jordan beat a few teams better then him by himself. But, you are totally insane (and you obviously are) if you think that Jordan has the same impact overall as a dominant center like Shaq or Robinson, even though he is definitely a better player.

Miguel and of course I take the 2002 Lakers, definitely a better team then any of the Bulls. :D

(Of course Loki will now try and argue that Pippen and MJ and crew would shut down Kobe, forgetting that they were total scrubs and Jordan carried the team by himself. You gotta choose one Loki.....)
 
bionic77 said:
Jordan was lottery pick and the Bulls were still a lottery pick after his rookie year. Robinson was a lottery pick (Spurs won 19 or 20 games I believe), and they never went below 50 until Robinson got hurt and they picked up TD. I don't recall how Shaq did his first season, but I believe he added like 20 games to his teams win column. I believe the Dream did the same. And Loki, you are seriously insane dude. Just give it up now and start the Church of Jordan. I know how you only selectively see through your Jordan tinted goggles. I forgot about the Wizards, I will give Jordan props for that he almost turned them around (even though he was a terrible GM). AND I gave Jordan props for the 98 championships when he was the only one with anything left, Pippen was past his prime at this point and Jordan beat a few teams better then him by himself. But, you are totally insane (and you obviously are) if you think that Jordan has the same impact overall as a dominant center like Shaq or Robinson, even though he is definitely a better player.

Miguel and of course I take the 2002 Lakers, definitely a better team then any of the Bulls. :D

(Of course Loki will now try and argue that Pippen and MJ and crew would shut down Kobe, forgetting that they were total scrubs and Jordan carried the team by himself. You gotta choose one Loki.....)

In Olajuwon's case, you can look at the effect he had on the team coming in (+19 wins) as a result of the fact that Houston now had TWO dominant forces in the middle (Sampson and Hakeem). Sampson was just as dominant back then and had similar, if not better, numbers. When Sampson came to Houston the prior year, they went from 14 wins to 29 wins (+15 wins); then, they went from 29 to 48 wins the year Hakeem was drafted, but this must be put into context-- and that context is that Houston then had two legitimate inside forces which gave teams fits. Hakeem alone wasn't responsible for that 19 game swing imo. He would've had an impact similar to what Sampson had (i.e. 10-15 game improvement) if Ralph weren't there.


In a similar way, the Spurs' 35 game win increase can not only be attributed to Robinson, but also to the fact that they added Terry Cummings (a 22+ ppg scorer) and Rod Strickland (14ppg) that same year. Had they kept the same exact roster, and ONLY added Robinson, the win increase would've been a bit more modest imo, on the order of 20 games.


What significant players did Chicago acquire BESIDES Jordan that year? None. In fact, they LOST a good scorer in Reggie Theus that year. So Jordan's +11 win effect on the team was solely attributable to him. Check the rosters-- there's nobody of ANY note different from the year prior, in contrast to San Antonio's situation (certainly not a 22+ and 14+ ppg scorers like there was for SA).


As for the Bulls beating the Lakers, I don't have to choose anything. Pippen matured into a great player after 1990-1991, and Grant was solid. The Bulls would win just because of Jordan's dominance and their collective defense, which was spearheaded by Jordan and Pippen. I never said that they were all "scrubs" in every aspect of the game-- Pippen is one of the best defenders in history. He just tended to disappear in the playoffs offensively entirely too much for my liking; often, all teams had to do was be a little physical with him and he'd crumble. But collectively, they had their strengths, and it was all held together by Jordan's greatness. Don't agree with me? Jerry West does: "He's the best offensive player in the league, the best defensive player in the league, and the best competitor in the league, playing on a team that is by no means a perfect team; he carries this team-- very rarely do players carry teams to wins, much less championships"


Note the word "carry". ;)


Go watch Chicago's dismantling of Orlando in the '96 playoffs in a 4-game sweep for evidence of how they'd handle Shaq and <insert wannabe-MJ superstar of the day here>. :D
 
Some great clips of MJ coming up on ESPN Classic in a minute during the Phil Jackson Sportscentury show. :D


EDIT: Eh, there are a couple of ok clips, but I must've been thinking of a different show.
 
Guarantee Lakers win this game...GUARANTEE!!!!!
 
What the tits? Where is everybody?
 
I think that deafening silence you hear is the sound of all the "Kobe is the greatest of all time" fanboys trying to think of what to say next.
 
-jinx- said:
I think that deafening silence you hear is the sound of all the "Kobe is the greatest of all time" fanboys trying to think of what to say next.

:lol
 
-jinx- said:
I think that deafening silence you hear is the sound of all the "Kobe is the greatest of all time" fanboys trying to think of what to say next.

lol.gif
lol.gif
lol.gif
 
-jinx- said:
I think that deafening silence you hear is the sound of all the "Kobe is the greatest of all time" fanboys trying to think of what to say next.

Isn't Konex the only one that says that? I still think Kobe has the potential, but right now it is only potential and he has to become a much smarter baller to become better then MJ, that is what seperates the two at this point imho.

Seriously, Konex gives Laker fans a bad name!!!!! You can't generalize other Kobe and Laker fans by what Konex says, that isn't fair. That is like generalized what Loki and Sactown say to their respective fanboy base. :D

j/k Loki, before you spaz and break out some videotapes of MJ from 1968. ;)
 
bionic77 said:
Isn't Konex the only one that says that? I still think Kobe has the potential, but right now it is only potential and he has to become a much smarter baller to become better then MJ, that is what seperates the two at this point imho.

Seriously, Konex gives Laker fans a bad name!!!!! You can't generalize other Kobe and Laker fans by what Konex says, that isn't fair. That is like generalized what Loki and Sactown say to their respective fanboy base. :D

j/k Loki, before you spaz and break out some videotapes of MJ from 1968. ;)

Konex != Laker fan. He wants Kobe to go to the Clippers for crissakes. THE CLIPPERS!
 
Bionic-

Hint: It's not only their respective basketball IQ's which separates them, but I digress...;)


I much prefer to let the evidence we have before us presently on the national stage do the talking. :D


EDIT: LOL @ that pic-- I just thought the same thing when it loaded up, naz; I didn't see it earlier. I was like "Wtf!? How'd THAT slip through the moderating team's clutches?" o_O

:D
 
Some of the media, however, think there's something else at work here, whether it's Bryant's off-the-court problems, impending free agency or relationship with Shaq. Bryant shook his head at each suggestion.

"No, there is nothing else going on here," he said. "Jordan hits 17 percent of his shots in a playoff game, and everyone isn't saying there's something else wrong with Jordan."

I don't know if Jordan ever hit only 17 percent of his shots, but in the Eastern Conference finals in 1989 against Detroit, his coaches and teammates were mad at him for shooting too much. Sound familiar?

Jordan, who had yet to win a championship at the time, was 10 for 29 in the opener, nine for 20 in the second game, and after a five-for-15 performance in Game 4, tore up the locker room, got on the team bus while still dressed in his uniform and refused to meet with reporters. Wonder what the L.A. media would've said about that? Upset about being criticized, Jordan took only eight shots in the next playoff game. Sound familiar?

At least Kobe doesn't avoid the press. Wow, MJ at 26 had a pretty shitty ECF didn't he? The way some of you Jordanites talk, you'd think dude never had a bad game lol
 
Cloudy said:
At least Kobe doesn't avoid the press. Wow, MJ at 26 had a pretty shitty ECF didn't he? The way some of you Jordanites talk, you'd think dude never had a bad game lol

Loki: OMG, LOL, KOBE SHOT 20% IN GAME 4. HAHAHA, JORDAN NEVER SHOT BELOW 150% IN ANY GAME IN HIS CAREER LET ALONE THE PLAYOFFS. HAHA, AND HIS SPEED MAN, HE WAS PROBABLY THE FASTEST MAN OF ALL TIME, WHAT YOU DON'T BELIEVE THIS WELL THOUGHT OUT CLAIMS? I HAVE TAPES DAMNIT, TAPES!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Wow, Kobe had the balls to make the comparison with Jordan (and a false one at that-- MJ never shot 17% for a game; 20%, maybe, like say 4-20, but not in a playoff game)? He's hit a new low. Glad to see his ego is still there despite his PITIFUL performance (and, let's be honest, save for a couple of games, his entire playoffs has been subpar).


You want to talk about those games he quoted? Sure. Here's the stats, from this site


Game 1 (the 10-29 performance): 32 points, 11 rebound, 4 assists
Game 2 (the 9-20 performance): 27, 4 and 4
Game 3 : 46 points, 7 boards, 5 assists (the shooting wasn't bad either, or else your reporter would've mentioned it, no?)

Game 4 (the 5-15 showing): 23 points, 2 reb, 4 assists
Game 5: 18 points, 5 reb, 9 assists
Game 6: 32 points, 4 rebounds and 13 assists (also must have been good shooting)


He averaged 29.9 points, 5.5 rebounds, and 6.5 assists for the series, which are all respectable #'s (particularly being the sole focus and also going against 2 of the best defenders of all time-- how many all-defensive teams has Prince been on again? ;)). We can't determine his FG% for the series, because we're missing some games, though I'll take the reporter's word for the games in question.


Look, I haven't been dogging Kobe just because he's shot poorly, but A) because he hasn't done the other things (spare me the "but they weren't making shots" discussion-- I could just as easily say that about Jordan), and ALSO (and this is the big thing imo) because he hasn't been aggressive enough in terms of getting to his spots and drawing fouls to supplement his scoring. Look at MJ's 10-29 performance-- he ended up with 32 points, which means he made between 9-12 FT's that game. Look at the 5-15 game for 23 points-- that means he made between 11-13 FT's. Ditto for the 9-20 showing (which is still better than Kobe's average FG% night during the course of a season, but whatever)-- 27 points, meaning he made between 7-9 FT's. He obviously attempted more FT's than this, unless we're to assume that he made every FT he took. The point being that he was aggressive and found ways to score and help his team even when his shot may have been off (and unless I saw the game, I wouldn't be able to tell if it was his shot that was off, the defense, if he went to the rim a lot and got blocked, or a combination of all of these). You'd have to see the game to make that judgment. Even commentators such as Tim Legler commented after Kobe's game 3 performance that it was inexcusable to have only 1 point in the first half, and how a guy like Jordan would have gotten to the line or done the other things to get himself involved. On the heels of that, Kobe gets only 5 points in the first half of game 4 with no FT's attempted. Inexcusable imo.


But I've actually SEEN these past 4 games, and in all of them Kobe has A) not been able to get clean looks against Prince, B) taken some incredibly forced shots when he didn't have to, and C) settled for a lot of jumpers rather than making his move quickly and having the defense react to HIM rather than vice-versa. I'd never criticize him for simply having a bad shooting night or two (and make no mistake, if Jordan shot < 40% for the entire series in question like Kobe is doing, the reporter would've just stated that, which is why he only focused on 3 games, one of which is still better than Kobe's average FG%) . I criticize him for not being aggressive (you can make a case that he should've had 1-3 more FT's in game 4, but that's about it imo), and not doing the other things that help a team win.


Beyond all this, the comparison is irrelevant because Kobe is not receiving a fraction of the defensive attention that Jordan did with those Pistons, and Prince is not nearly the defensive equivalent of Dumars and/or Rodman (not yet at least); in particular, he has slow feet and often stands nearly upright on defense, which his length compensates for, but which can and SHOULD be exploited by Kobe, but he's been settling for long J's. PLEASE don't try to say that Kobe faced 2 and 3 defenders in that game-- the only time this happened was when he got into the lane and Detroit clogged it; even on pick-and-rolls, which Detroit tended to trap when Kobe was the ballhandler, the original defender did not follow Kobe all the way out, and let the secondary defender (the defender of the "roll" man) herd him out towards halfcourt while Kobe's defender hung back a few steps in case Kobe got around. It wasn't a hard trap. They would've been even MORE effective had they done that, imo, as Kobe seemed doggedly determined to get into the lane HIS WAY at all costs, instead of finding other ways.


But yeah, it's always good to see that his arrogance hasn't subsided after what seemed to be a very humble postgame press conference. He has real nerve even mentioning Jordan in the same breath as himself, and it goes to show you his unabashed hubris. He'll learn when he's on his own team that he's not half the player he thinks he is.


But if Kobe goes off for 38+ the next game with at least 5 assists, and 33+ in game 6 with 6 or more assists, then you won't hear a peep out of me as to his performance. I'll promise you that-- you can quote this. :P Because before you become the GOAT (the acronym), you have to stop being a goat (literal). :D
 
Meh, the refs actually put MJ on the line :p

Hopefully, Kobe gets some respect in game 5 as he leads the Lakers to the biggest comeback in NBA history. I STILL BELIEVE!!!!!
 
Cloudy said:
Meh, the refs actually put MJ on the line :p

Hopefully, Kobe gets some respect in game 5 as he leads the Lakers to the biggest comeback in NBA history. I STILL BELIEVE!!!!!

Meh, he deserved 2-3 more FT's in game 4, that's about it; the other games were officiated fine. I watched them. Kobe tends to cry a lot (literally and figuratively ;)), and so does Phil Jackson, who is putting tremendous pressure on the refs in the media now to bail his team's sorry ass out tomorrow night. :D


EDIT: Oh, and "the refs put MJ on the line"? Have you ever even SEEN the fouls they used to lay on him? It was pretty blatant, unlike Kobe's case. If they didn't call those, they might as well have allowed Detroit to bring hacksaws to the game to deter Jordan from driving. ;)
 
Early in his career MJ was slammed, it was a key cog of the Pistons philosophy. However, later in his career, he was also the benefit of a lot of "superstar" calls that ONLY MJ got. Mostly resulting from jumpers, he still found his way to the line.
 
bionic77 said:
Isn't Konex the only one that says that?

Half the fucking media was saying it a week ago. I couldn't give a shit about Konex, he's nothing but a dumb kid anyway. But when people in the media who you'd think would know better promote this "25 year old Kobe > 25 year old Jordan!!!" garbage, it frankly becomes sickening.

Because before you become the GOAT (the acronym), you have to stop being a goat (literal).

Heh...that was cute.
 
Shinobi said:
Half the fucking media was saying it a week ago. I couldn't give a shit about Konex, he's nothing but a dumb kid anyway. But when people in the media who you'd think would know better promote this "25 year old Kobe > 25 year old Jordan!!!" garbage, it frankly becomes sickening.



Heh...that was cute.

Hey, I think a 25 year old Kobe is better then a 25 year old Jordan too, but that is a pretty worthless achievement. I don't think I saw anyone say that Kobe was better then Jordan in the media, all they did was say there were similiarities and that if anyone could equal or better him it would be Kobe. Ugh, it is going to be a moot point anyways if the Kobe leaves LA and goes to some scrub team like New York (at that point I will make the ludicrous point that Kareem Rush is better then Kobe :D). A lot of people (like Konex), want Kobe to go to another team to improve "his legacy", but as a Laker fan I obviously want him to stand pat, he is obviously the future of the franchise. Stupid Malone, you just had to keep your knee right for 7 more games!!! This just increases my hate for old people. :( "IF" the Lakers lose this series, then the whole team except Shaq and Kobe needs to be blown up and they need to start from scratch.
 
DJ_Tet said:
Early in his career MJ was slammed, it was a key cog of the Pistons philosophy. However, later in his career, he was also the benefit of a lot of "superstar" calls that ONLY MJ got. Mostly resulting from jumpers, he still found his way to the line.

To be fair, like Shaq Jordan was fouled on almost every possession in his prime. Granted Shaq doesn't get the calls anymore, but that is also his fault for not adjusting. Most superstars get fouled on every possession though, not just Jordan. And back when Jordan was going to the line more often so were all the other superstars, the game was called so much cleaner back in the day, now they allow players to get away with so much more contact.
 
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2004/columns/story?columnist=smith_sam&id=1821993

This guy is right on the money. Amazing how fast everyone is out to crucify Kobe again. The only guys who have any right to criticize Kobe on the Lakers are Malone and Shaq. I mean Rick Fox telling Kobe not to shoot the ball too much? That is the sign of a team coming apart. Everyone in LA bitches about Kobe's shot selection, but at the end of the game other then Fish and Shaq, everyone else just throws the ball in to Kobe and runs away. No one else has the heart to take that last minute shot, and great as Shaq can be he doesn't have the ability to hit long range jumpers (and his FTs are a liability at the end).

"Times does a lot of things to people's memory," Dumars said with a knowing smirk. "It makes you think everyone had 40 every night. Mike had some awfully tough ganes in this building, awfully tough games. It's a little unfair to say Michael wouldn't have those games. He wasn't getting 40 in here. He had some good games, but he wasn't getting 40. But he was going to have the ball."

Anyways, really great editorial, guy keeps it in perspective. Of course I am afraid Konex and Loki will take it all out of context and give us their crazy take on reality.

Daring to be great is not just hitting the game-winning shot. It's failing, as well, as Jordan has said many times. And trying. This is what truly separates the great ones. They don't ever expect to miss. Or lose.
 
"There are a lot of similarities," Dumars said when asked about the two. "Kobe is a better shooter at 25 than Michael was. Michael became a great shooter as he got older. Those guys are eerily similar to me. When I watch Kobe play, it's as close to Michael as I've ever seen. It's hard to imagine that. I have the utmost respect for his game. He made a play (in Game 4) I shook my head over, a floater away, kissed off the backboard. That's a hard shot to make."

But, Joe, Michael never took shots like that and had games like that!

"Times does a lot of things to people's memory," Dumars said with a knowing smirk. "It makes you think everyone had 40 every night. Mike had some awfully tough ganes in this building, awfully tough games. It's a little unfair to say Michael wouldn't have those games. He wasn't getting 40 in here. He had some good games, but he wasn't getting 40. But he was going to have the ball."

ROFL. Put that in your revisionist pipe and smoke it, Loko. Come on, bring on the excuses and "IVE SEEN EVERY GAME JORDAN EVER PLAYED..10-29?? ATTEMPTING ONLY 8 SHOTS OUT OF SPITE? BLASPHEMOUS!!!!"
 
Shinobi said:
Half the fucking media was saying it a week ago. I couldn't give a shit about Konex, he's nothing but a dumb kid anyway. But when people in the media who you'd think would know better promote this "25 year old Kobe > 25 year old Jordan!!!" garbage, it frankly becomes sickening.

Is Joe Dumars credible enough for you, Shinobi?

"Kobe is a better shooter at 25 than Michael was. Michael became a great shooter as he got older. Those guys are eerily similar to me. When I watch Kobe play, it's as close to Michael as I've ever seen. It's hard to imagine that. I have the utmost respect for his game. He made a play (in Game 4) I shook my head over, a floater away, kissed off the backboard. That's a hard shot to make."

But, Joe, Michael never took shots like that and had games like that!

"Times does a lot of things to people's memory," Dumars said with a knowing smirk. "It makes you think everyone had 40 every night. Mike had some awfully tough ganes in this building, awfully tough games. It's a little unfair to say Michael wouldn't have those games. He wasn't getting 40 in here. He had some good games, but he wasn't getting 40. But he was going to have the ball."

Who wants next?
 
bionic77 said:
To be fair, like Shaq Jordan was fouled on almost every possession in his prime. Granted Shaq doesn't get the calls anymore, but that is also his fault for not adjusting. Most superstars get fouled on every possession though, not just Jordan. And back when Jordan was going to the line more often so were all the other superstars, the game was called so much cleaner back in the day, now they allow players to get away with so much more contact.


That's true. I thought about that as I wrote my comment. The same touch fouls that Jordan used to milk are no longer called for anyone. And even worse, there is a TON more contact on jumpers allowed than there was in Jordan's day. I long for a game that is actually called cleanly.

Although I agree that athleticism has helped defenses immensely, I don't think the 80's was as inept on D as some would have you believe. Sure, the Denver teams didn't play defense by design, but I saw Bird, Michael Cooper, Dennis Johnson et al. make a lot of great defensive plays.

Players then played the BALL, and didn't reach because they knew it would be a foul. Now, contact is encouraged by the refs, and the physical style involves play on the PLAYER, not the ball.

It's too bad really.
 
he's nothing but a dumb kid anyway.

I'm probably as old as you are LOL (23 btw)

A lot of people (like Konex), want Kobe to go to another team to improve "his legacy"

I'd leave if I were him. Dude carries them through the playoffs but has a few bad games and everyone's trashing him? Kobe2Clippers!!!!!
 
HalfPastNoon said:
ROFL. Put that in your revisionist pipe and smoke it, Loko. Come on, bring on the excuses and "IVE SEEN EVERY GAME JORDAN EVER PLAYED..10-29?? ATTEMPTING ONLY 8 SHOTS OUT OF SPITE? BLASPHEMOUS!!!!"

Loki already responded to this post...
Game 1 (the 10-29 performance): 32 points, 11 rebound, 4 assists
Game 2 (the 9-20 performance): 27, 4 and 4
Game 3 : 46 points, 7 boards, 5 assists (the shooting wasn't bad either, or else your reporter would've mentioned it, no?)

Game 4 (the 5-15 showing): 23 points, 2 reb, 4 assists
Game 5: 18 points, 5 reb, 9 assists
Game 6: 32 points, 4 rebounds and 13 assists (also must have been good shooting)

And Dumars is the one smoking crack and I'm guessing you passed the pipe? And no one ever claimed Jordan hasn't had a bad game, it's just that he's never had a series as poor as the one Kobe is having (at least in the Finals).

1989-1990 Eastern Conference Finals
Game1: 34 pts, 7 rebs, 5 assists
Game2: 20 pts, 7 rebs, 7 assists
Game3: 47 pts, 10 rebs, 4 assists
Game4: 42 pts, 4 rebs, 9 assists
Game5: 22 pts, 4 rebs, 8 assists
Game6: 29 pts, 2 rebs, 10 assists
Game7: 31 pts, 8 rebs, 9 assists
 
HalfPastNoon said:
Is Joe Dumars credible enough for you, Shinobi?



Who wants next?

Dumars CLAIMS Kobe was a better shooter and yet Jordan had the better shooting percentage at that age AND was scoring more points...hmm. In 1989 Jordans regular FG% was .526, he scored 33.6 points per game. His playoff stats for that season: .514 FG%, 36.7 PPG. Then again Dumars also said Jordan wasn't getting 40 against the Pistons which, as I've shown, is wrong.

edit: Misread what Dumars said. Kobe might've been the better pure shooter, but his stats don't support Dumars statements because Kobe ain't much of a pure shooter anyway. And Jordan, while mainly a driver and slasher at the time, had an excellent jump shot unless you think he got all of those points on drives alone.

edit: Some more.
Against Dumars and the Pistons:
http://www.sportingnews.com/archives/jordan/defenders.html
"He scored 61 points in an overtime win against the Detroit Pistons in 1987 and added a 59-point effort in 1988.
 
but were those 40+ performances IN detroit? That's what Dumars was claiming right?

And of course he's not credible... he was a literal career Jordan hater.
 
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