sixteen-bit
Member
Based 180s
The point - Why The Xbox Is Losing
- Thread starter le.phat
- Start date
Based 180s
Photolysis
Banned
Well thought out.
Microsoft's strategy has always struck me as insane since they first announced it: they're trying to appeal to precisely the sort of person who will most definitely not go out and buy it near launch, and who will be swayed by what their friends are doing.
The hardcore guys are always the first adopters. They're the ones who get your product off the ground, and the ones showing it off and recommending it to friends and family when asked for advice.
Microsoft didn't just ignore the hardcore market, it flat out dismissed them. While their constant backpeddling over their policies and desperate attempts to play catchup are amusing, they're paying the price for a terrible business decision.
Microsoft's strategy has always struck me as insane since they first announced it: they're trying to appeal to precisely the sort of person who will most definitely not go out and buy it near launch, and who will be swayed by what their friends are doing.
The hardcore guys are always the first adopters. They're the ones who get your product off the ground, and the ones showing it off and recommending it to friends and family when asked for advice.
Microsoft didn't just ignore the hardcore market, it flat out dismissed them. While their constant backpeddling over their policies and desperate attempts to play catchup are amusing, they're paying the price for a terrible business decision.
LiquidMetal14
hide your water-based mammals
That hasn't changed.
Haven't you heard, specs don't matter. Anymore. Since the PS4 is more noticeably powerful. Stop looking. Nothing to see here.
Shaunboy97
Member
You can't determine a consoles success on pre-orders!! That's just silly! PS3 had horrible pre-orders. People were buying PS3s just to flip them for more cash. That's not to mention all the people that NEVER pre-order (this is the first year I've ever preordered anything console/game) But we'll see. Competition is a great motivator.
D
Deleted member 752119
Unconfirmed Member
True. But who jumps out to a lead in the first six months to year after launch tends to win the race and we have a pretty good idea of the software lineup in that period.
There could be some major surprise, but I doubt it--especially in terms of something exclusive. In this age of sequelitis the first year or two will mostly be sequels to big franchises in terms of "killer app" type games.
You do realize the PS3 was a Sony money pit for years because it took so long to get a significant install base and the games were so hard to port. In fact it lost the total profits from the PS1 and PS2 era's. It really didn't hit it stride until just a few years ago and mostly because it understood non-english speaking markets better than MS. Even so they sold a lot less software.
The Xbox 360 reveal targeted hardcore gamers as much as the Xbox One reveal --- that is, it didn't do it much.
Using almost more than half of the length of a console's reveal for music performances and showing customization features doesn't really scream "hardcore gaming".
The changes to the Xbox 360 late in the gen was largely in part due to many core gamers owning an Xbox 360 during the time that all of those features were introduced. Targeting the audience that already owns your product doesn't lead to more sales of that product since (obviously) these people already own the product. You gotta branch to other audiences to continue on getting decent sales.
And branching out to other audiences late during a gen isn't anything new when it comes to gaming consoles. The NES, SNES, Genesis, PS1, PS2, and PS3 all did the same. However, the Xbox 360 was really successful with its branching out --- more successful than the usual resurgence that comes late during a successful console's life when the company that makes it does things to cater it to other (non-hardcore gaming) audiences.
highrider
Banned
TimeEffect
Member
Doesn't this just assume that early adopters aren't softcore?
Games like COD, Battlefield, Assassin's Creed, and next-gen sports games are softcore titles with huge dedicated fans. These are the kinds of guys who have parents or money to spend on going all out for next gen.
MS has locked down COD, and on top of that, EA sports to exclusivity rights. Does this not affect anything? Are there not hardcore gamers who are perfectly happy with current gen and are sensible enough to wait to adopt down the line?
Unless preorder numbers are really that slanted towards PS4..
Games like COD, Battlefield, Assassin's Creed, and next-gen sports games are softcore titles with huge dedicated fans. These are the kinds of guys who have parents or money to spend on going all out for next gen.
MS has locked down COD, and on top of that, EA sports to exclusivity rights. Does this not affect anything? Are there not hardcore gamers who are perfectly happy with current gen and are sensible enough to wait to adopt down the line?
Unless preorder numbers are really that slanted towards PS4..
Yeah just like better versions of multiplatform games suddenly matter on the PS4 when on the PS2 and PS3 it was something like "meh..who gives a shit about the differences? they are the same games after all". Of course if you reverse that it will apply just fine to the change of tune from the Xbone fans as well.
It's pretty apparent that both sides of the fence are adjusting to the new standards, it's always like that when a new gen is going to start so why are you surprised by the sudden change of priorities?
flyinpiranha
Member
You're going to be in for a rude awakening. Included headset. It will happen. It has nothing to do with PS3 owners supposedly being gentlemen and scholars. It has to do with the base install and EVERY box coming with a way for EVERY person who owns the system to voice their opinion online.
This is actually a pretty solid point.
Outside of a few exclusives, the launch lineup for both consoles mainly consists of games that are mostly attractive to the "softcore" audience.
And while the price plays a role for some, on the flip side many of these "softcore"/"dudebro" (ugh, hate using that term) gamers had no problem with paying for Xbox Live each year when PS3 online was free.
So yeah, this audience is willing to pay more if they feel that it's worth it to have certain features.
CassidyIzABeast
Member
Then they came to E3 and showed nothing but games for a hour and a half. I'm not seeing the dismissal of the gamers.
Captain Tuttle
Member
Yeah, he's not very funny. He made a really good point about the "softcore", I've struggled for a way to describe that huge section of audience. Hold your nose and watch it
ThoughtsOfSpeaking
Banned
Personally, I think the news the Xbox one is only launching in 13 countries, with no firm idea when it will launch else where is now the consoles greatest danger.
Its like Microsoft seem to think platform evanglists only exist in their main markets and only influence the country they are from. I think sony now has the momentum to have their console sell via the greatest marketing tool of all :- Word of mouth.
Ultimately it doesnt matter if the Xbox one has attractive and distinctive features over the PS4. The 360s advantages were not its media apps, kinect or xbox live, not at first. Its advantage was launching first, being easy to develop for and behind cheaper than the competition.
Once they hooked the early adopters, it then went on to increase value of the console for hardcore and casual alike.
With the X1 They tried to sell to the casual first, hardcore second and pretended the softcore didnt exist. Thats their problem and its a problem they are currently trying to address.
It may be too little too late however because unlike Microsoft, Sony can sell on brand power alone. The Xbox brand still does not hold the same weight worldwide as the playstation one. All Sony has to do is improve their market share in the US to a 50/50 spilt and the rest of the world follows.
Its like Microsoft seem to think platform evanglists only exist in their main markets and only influence the country they are from. I think sony now has the momentum to have their console sell via the greatest marketing tool of all :- Word of mouth.
Ultimately it doesnt matter if the Xbox one has attractive and distinctive features over the PS4. The 360s advantages were not its media apps, kinect or xbox live, not at first. Its advantage was launching first, being easy to develop for and behind cheaper than the competition.
Once they hooked the early adopters, it then went on to increase value of the console for hardcore and casual alike.
With the X1 They tried to sell to the casual first, hardcore second and pretended the softcore didnt exist. Thats their problem and its a problem they are currently trying to address.
It may be too little too late however because unlike Microsoft, Sony can sell on brand power alone. The Xbox brand still does not hold the same weight worldwide as the playstation one. All Sony has to do is improve their market share in the US to a 50/50 spilt and the rest of the world follows.
Well that's what I experienced quite often and I was responding specifically to the poster saying XBO will win America because the kids grew up with Xbox. Your post about generalizations doesn't change my opinion on that.
But checking your post history, I can see why offense was taken.
I paid for Gold for 6 years. I didn't enjoy the experience I had with random gamers when my friends weren't online.
Dr Mayonnaise
Member
It seems that everybody is focused on the vocal MINORITY. Has anybody asked the silent majority? I can see the next gen ending just like this one as in both XB1 and PS4 selling about the the same as each other. People on gaming message boards have made up their mind, but its foolish to think that we speak for the millions of people who will buy a next gen console. Out of all my friends that are buying a next gen console less than 1/4 are jumping from MS back to Sony not to say that my small sample represents the market as a whole I just think people don't realize how much of a draw early dlc for CoD or ones gamerscore truly has.
D
Deleted member 752119
Unconfirmed Member
Most softcores will just buy those games on 360/PS3.
If any of those were next-gen exclusive, it would be a different story.
There really isn't anything exclusive at launch on either platform that is a must buy for softcores.
Forza and Killzone have some mass appeal for sure, but aren't day one system movers.
The Wraith
Member
Feel free to counter with something other than "no". I do like reading other views from people.
The internet forums are the vocal minority. The pre-orders are the silent majority. MS can rightly ignore much of the noise on the net, but they can't ignore people voting with their pocket books. The network effect was a major factor int he 360's success and high attach rate. IF Sony leads at the start once it hits a critical mass then it'll have a stronger position for attach rate and future sales and MS has to spend more to stay int he game. Much like how Sony needed to expend more to recruit customers and keep their customer base last gen. Just compare XBL gold to PSN+ and what you get for the money.
If PS4 blow XB1 out of the water out of the gate MS needs to spend more to keep up.
Anecdotes are very small samples for instance in my circle of friends almost everyone is wait and see leaning towards Sony but waiting for the launch results. They were all 360 last round. However the pre-orders are a bigger sample and seem to be consistent, about 4:1 Sony:microsoft.
Now the interesting part is that the 4:1 ratio isn't a barometer of interest. It SEEMS that it's hard caps. The EB near me is at 190:46. He said 190 was their total allocation of PS4's and they had only a handful of XB1 pre-order units available. Sony may win the 'launch' with staying the course, decent PR, and industrial electronics expertise. It seems they are just cranking out more units and there enough demand to sell them all.
A lot of my son's friends (12-14 year old demographic) grew up with a 360, but are super hyped for the PS4 because they've come over to the house and actually used a PS3 instead of just hearing 360 gamer friends bag on it for years. Mostly I just hear about how much nicer the system menu stuff is, and how they like the look of the PS3 better than the 360.
I wouldn't even want to predict how next gen will play out. If MS pulls some sort of heavily subsidized version of the XBO and Sony doesn't follow suit, MS could win big again in the U.S. I don't know that it would really fly outside of the U.S. tho, or if it's even realistic. Sega tried to go the free subsidized route with the Dreamcast and failed miserably, but that's likely a matter of poor timing, people are used to 2-year commitments as a part of life now in a lot of cases, so it could be a way to push out consoles. I wouldn't do it personally, I hate being tied down to contracts (haven't been in a phone contract for almost 7 years), but I know a lot of people will just do it to lower upfront costs. I don't know that I would consider selling more due to subsidized consoles as a 'win' personally, but I'm sure Microsoft and a lot of people would have no problem making that distinction seeing that it's how we look at mobile sales already.
I wouldn't even want to predict how next gen will play out. If MS pulls some sort of heavily subsidized version of the XBO and Sony doesn't follow suit, MS could win big again in the U.S. I don't know that it would really fly outside of the U.S. tho, or if it's even realistic. Sega tried to go the free subsidized route with the Dreamcast and failed miserably, but that's likely a matter of poor timing, people are used to 2-year commitments as a part of life now in a lot of cases, so it could be a way to push out consoles. I wouldn't do it personally, I hate being tied down to contracts (haven't been in a phone contract for almost 7 years), but I know a lot of people will just do it to lower upfront costs. I don't know that I would consider selling more due to subsidized consoles as a 'win' personally, but I'm sure Microsoft and a lot of people would have no problem making that distinction seeing that it's how we look at mobile sales already.
NullPointer
Member
The reversals are going far to make the console less obnoxious, but there's been little that's a complete positive to wash away the hard feelings. Background matchmaking is nice. The new controller and rumble too.
But that's it really.
There was a time when people laughed at Sony saying they will meet up with Microsoft. I'm not sure about the exact figures, but I think they're both around 70 mil now. I'm not just a "360 guy defending Microsoft", I'm well aware they screwed the pooch for an unveil and are now scrambling to fix it. But two years from now is this going to be an issue? When the new 360s came out, how many people forgot about the RRoD? That was way worse than some policies on used games, that bricked your system! Yet people not only forgave, some shelled out for another console (granted, which Microsoft uses those in their figures when discussing their install base). I think Microsoft will do just fine in the markets they already dominate, but will probably not "expand the brand" in the way they wished they could.
I think this gen is going to be some Wild West shit and this is the only thing we can count on seeing.
I've asked a while bunch of people in the UK. The COD and FIFA crowd said they are getting PS4 simply because it's cheaper. I also asked a super casual, she said she's not interested In X1 she played Wii and Kinect before, only 360 is connected to the system without Kinect, mainly for Netflix and random games of COD which her boyfriend plays. She says she's happy sticking with 360 for a long time.
This shows MS made a bad decision sticking with the casuals. Price and release date are the key things that will make a system successful.
3rdamention
Member
I honestly always took the reveal, and statements similar to the one I bolded above, to mean that the reveal was for Corporate Partnerships, Marketers, and Advertising Agencies, honestly. Remember after E3 when Microsoft started cancelling almost all their interviews? Remember the reasons why? They said they had too many obligations and meetings to fill with their corporate partners.
Its been pretty obvious, from the beginning, that the number 1 target audience for the Xbox one was not hardcore gamers, or even gamers, it was the corporations and ad agencies that Microsoft wanted to align with to churn higher profits with their new consoles. It was obvious in the messaging and policies (used games can only be traded in at certain retailers = corporate partnership) and really is one of the reasons why Microsoft finds the Xbox One in the state it is today.
What does my post history say? Don't see what that has anything to do with me not agreeing to you summing up a community as a whole that way. But hey, I post in many Xbox threads, and therefore I must be offended since I'm an Xbox fanboy!
Kind of funny since you're using the same silly logic that the people you are criticizing use.
The "randoms" I've played online varied in terms of how they were. For the most part though, many were okay in the majority of games outside of COD.
I think too many people classify the people that play on XBL as a whole based solely on COD. Also, the 360 did come with a headset in every console which gave a voice to all of these people.
PS4 coming with a headset will more than likely do the same when it comes to playing online games on that console (give a voice to annoying preteen racist punks). But hey, we have mute features and party/cross-game chat on both consoles now.
The guy originally said "more kids will buy XBO". My response was "good". I hate playing my online games with kids who frequently act like fucking kids. That's where all this started. You're the one who decided to chime in on a conversation I was not having with you. If more kids buy XBO and I don't, that's only a good thing in my eyes.
Why are you starting an argument with me when I was merely saying I would be happy if most of the kids bought an XBO?
You seem to want to quote and defend every single post that seems to be anti XBO. Why?
shadowstar
Member
No this is just anecdotal evidence. Not saying your final sentence is untrue, but that is not proper proof.
and that was because Xbox360 had a killer feature/game (LIVE/Halo) that let you easily play online against your friends. Something new(er) and exciting at the time.
People tend not to switch unless the other guy has "the next big thing". I really don't see "the next big thing" in either console so far.
I hope I'm wrong because everything about the XB1 rubs me the wrong way.
As long as the Xbox One sells enough for it to be supported by first and third party developes for the next 10 years or so then thats all i care about, the fanboy 'my console sold more than your console' shite is something i have never understood and i don't think i ever will.
Sorry, I thought this was a forum. Didn't know I wasn't allowed to reply to conversations within a thread.
A big reason for Xbox 360 being known for "racist trash talk" is due to every console coming with a headset. Therefore, every racist trash talk gamer that had a 360 was able to have a voice.
Now that the PS4 will come with a headset in every console too, the same will be true for that console.
I mean, the PS4 is doing great in pre orders right? How can what I said above not be true?
"The PS4 is doing great in pre orders, is the cheaper console, has a headset in every box, and has done better in terms of the pre-launch period than its competitors, but no kids are going to buy it and spew racism online! That's only exclusive to Xbox!"
I simply quote and reply to things I don't agree with. FYI, I have posted things critiquing the Xbox 360/One before. Just recently made replies in which I stated how having apps like Netflix/Hulu behind the paywall is silly/outdated, and how I thought that making kinect mandatory for the Xbox one to function was silly. I guess you didn't see those posts though.
The only reason why people don't complain about assholes on PS3 multiplayer games is because you need to buy a mic. With that said as the years have gone on, XBLive has chilled out considerably. The rudest people I've ever encountered have been on TF2 on PC before it went F2P. The PS4 will see the brunt of the influx of kids who are just now getting to be on the Internet unsupervised with mice on the Internet the go around.
Ok fine. But specifically in response to the guy I was originally quoting. He said more kids will buy XBO than Ps4. His words, not mine. My response is GOOD!
If your contention is that he is incorrect and that more kids will buy PS4, that's fine and I agree that's probably what's going to happen. But if what he said is true and that more kids will buy XBO because that is the brand they grew up with, my response is "good, I'm glad".
AngelsDontBurn
Banned
I guess I expected more from the video from a few people's reactions, but I could hardly stand it. I don't think they're losing at all, they were most definitely in an awkward place where they were forced to make changes to their console. LOL 180 AMIRITE?! I wouldn't really call that losing by any means. Not to mention I've known people that weren't interested in a One before, and now have one pre-ordered. I'm sure the XboxOne and PS4 will both be fine systems.
I just don't have confidence in the Xbox division anymore. Say what you will about Nintendo and Sony but recently they've been definitive on their stances with their platforms. It just seems like now that the Xbox has become a successful and recognizable brand other portions of Microsoft are jumping at it trying to put their own stamp on it.
During the rise of the Wii people kept on questioning if Nintendo was getting out of the business of making core games but now it seems like Microsoft has taken that mantle. Their number one priority certainly isn't games anymore.
During the rise of the Wii people kept on questioning if Nintendo was getting out of the business of making core games but now it seems like Microsoft has taken that mantle. Their number one priority certainly isn't games anymore.
I think the only hypothetical you can put on the table is that MS might take Ohio based on the 2 people you know that have PS3s and the vaguely referenced "just about everyone I know" 360 owners.
I'm in Colorado, and almost everyone I know likes green chile. Hypothetical observations to follow.
Beer Monkey
Member
I sure wish Sony would have done some "backtracking" in 2006 about that $600 launch price.
This so-called "backtracking" is a good thing. It's a company being responsive to their customers and market, something that Sony and Nintendo are generally very, very slow about.
All they have to do now is remove Kinect and I'll seriously consider cancelling my PS4 preorder.
This so-called "backtracking" is a good thing. It's a company being responsive to their customers and market, something that Sony and Nintendo are generally very, very slow about.
All they have to do now is remove Kinect and I'll seriously consider cancelling my PS4 preorder.
Don't see how anyone can say this --- there are many good looking core gaming oriented exclusives coming to the Xbox One.
They spent millions on improving their traditional controller --- something that core gamers will use to play core games.
Focusing on one thing doesn't mean it's impossible to focus on other things as well.
la flama blanca
Banned
lol what? Microsoft isn't backtracking out of any consideration for it's fans. It's purely money.
I was just giving a frame of reference for where my opinion was coming from.
I own every system and am trying to look at this objectively.
My whole point is, it usually takes a Killer feature/game to get people to switch. At this point, price and PR f-ups seem to be the major differences.
I'm sure a lot of 360 gamers don't know or care about the PR mess and will probably just ask for XB1 for Christmas so price isn't an issue.
I'm not sure there is enough features of PS4 for Xbox360 owners to give up their comfort zone of their LIVE account, established friends list, achievements, gamer score, etc....
CassidyIzABeast
Member
Everybody does it for the money.
Captain Tuttle
Member
Well 10 million more people bought a 360 in the USA than ps3s.The general negative feelings on GAF are anecdotal compared to that number.
I'm a 360 only owner and it's likely I'll switch but I'm not ready to make predictions of how the One will sell at the end of the day.
Beer Monkey
Member
LOL WUT WHERE DID I SAY FANS I SAID CUSTOMERS.
What do customers do? They spend money!
If you think any corporation cares about you more than the money you spend, you don't understand the business world.
Spending money is the prime form of communication and feedback between customers and the businesses they patronize.
Not saying that core games won't be on Xbox One, just like Nintendo pumped out a bunch of core games on the Wii. Is it their number one priority? Top five? From their first party investments and output I very much doubt it.
The industry likes to brag on how it's ever growing and expanding but when a major platform holder like Microsoft with the Xbox treat the medium as a mere pillar of a grand set top box scheme I lose faith in their ability to push standards forward.
la flama blanca
Banned
I mean specifically their turnaround on the policies. They clearly don't even know what consumers want or they wouldn't be in this situation in the first place.