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[Arsic]

Has this genre been in a worse state than it currently is in?

I remember the era between SF3 and until SF4 where it seemed fighting games were a lost cause but the games were still good that came out, lots of soul, and the community was there just waiting.

Lo and behold SF4 comes out and it's a renaissance to the genre. SF4, MK9, Guilty Gear Rev, Blazblue, Smash,Marvel vs Capcom, Tekken, and more just pumping out quality titles. The big chase to fix netcode, but the tournament scene is dialed up to 11!!!! Not major dollars but you can tune in every week all over to see new talent for games you love.

Come Covid and the arcade era truly dies. Locals are a thing of the past. Personalities from the scene die off. And the games? They all become chaotic.

Tekken 8? Chaos. Strobe show of colors. 70% damage combos, wall Carrie's from mid screen. Blazblue? Regulated to a side scrolling mobile rogue like. Guilty gear? Brain dead wall splat break game. Mortal kombat? Repeat bad tiles with whack single player and whack MP, still no improvements to animations, etc.

The passion is all gone. Net codes? Fixed. Cross play very common. The passion, the players, the FUN!? Gone. Pros only play what pays the most, and niche games are just that. Discord fighters galore.

This year alone just look at what is being nominated for fighter of the year… and next year is looking grim.

Now two fighters next year do look good, Tokkon and Virtua Fighter, but man it's hard to get hyped if you've played stuff from the last few years. It's all just watered down and focused on come back mechanics.

/rant

Going back to playing VF5 REVO World Stage. This still feeeeels like a passion made fighting game.

Someone save us.

 

[LavitzSlambert]

Smash Bros is the only fighting game worth playing.

 

[Arsic]

Smash Bros is the only fighting game worth playing.

The game feels like it's in a locked state.

Online netcode/ranked in ultimate is forever a joke. Balance will never be touched. Scene is lessened and a lot of folks in the community confirmed sexual predators.

Melee will always be fine though. Slippy helped a lot, but that games balance is a joke, and it's the same guys in grand finals. Played out.

 

[SupaComputa]

Too many mechanics and over designed. We need a stripped down SC7 with no meter, no come back mechanics and no overly anime BS. This will never happen of course. They could do a SC playhouse spinoff for people who like dressing up dolls and remove that shit from the mainline.

Don't design for streaming, you know like games used to, for fun. If a competitive scene naturally happens then fine, but design games for 80% of the gaming population.
This does not mean to make everything easy to do, the mistake all fgs made in the last decade.

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

fighting games are fine, it's only really MK that's in a terrible state atm.
and put some respect on entropy effect's name, it's an awesome game and was PC exclusive, it's not a "mobile game" just because they ported it in some state to mobile later.

 

[Dacvak]

If Smash had good netcode, it would be unstoppable. Like Arsic said, Slippy is awesome, but at the highest level it's played out.

There are some incredible Project M-based mods that truly make the game worth playing, but without mass adoption, it's hard to give them your time.

I think we just have to hope that somehow the next iteration of Smash has decent rollback netcode. It's embarrassing that Ultimate is still basically unplayable online.

 

[icecold1983]

They catered to the retarded casuals and ruined it for themselves.

 

[Arsic]

fighting games are fine, it's only really MK that's in a terrible state atm.
and put some respect on entropy effect's name, it's an awesome game and was PC exclusive, it's not a "mobile game" just because they ported it in some state to mobile later.

Tekken is in a bad state.
2KXO after years on years launched to meh because they didn't go onto consoles.
Soul caliber is dead.
Garou new title is dead.
MK as you said is bad.

Is SF6 actually good or just the least offensive of the bunch currently with a community behind it because pro players want those dollars. Take away the payout and would it even be this pushed? I doubt it.

Blazblue having other titles is fine but instead they completely abandoned the fighting games. For what?

 

[kevboard]

engless DLS bullshit, barebones main game launches... AND FUCKING AUTO MODES are ruining fighting games.

I want the era back when new characters and major balance changes only happen with major new releases. like Street Fighter 4, Super Street Fighter 4, Super Street Fighter 4 Arcade Edition etc.
but I don't thing this will ever come back, as fighting games now mimic live service games sadly.

with the old model every new entry felt like a cohesive game, not like a hub where you can just pick and chose which characters you own and which you don't.
I don't want to play a fighting game where not every single player has access TO EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER!

 

[Dacvak]

What do serious fighting game players think of modern Mortal Kombat? I more mean 11, and not MK1, since it seems like most people hate that.

I did just buy it on to play through casually on my switch 2, but holy crap that game looks bad on Switch. The fatalities aren't even fun to watch.

 

[kevboard]

What do serious fighting game players think of modern Mortal Kombat? I more mean 11, and not MK1, since it seems like most people hate that.

I did just buy it on to play through casually on my switch 2, but holy crap that game looks bad on Switch. The fatalities aren't even fun to watch.

MK is the B movie of fighting games. stiff and unresponsive controls, awful animations (well MK1 actually improved on that), boring AS FUUUUUCK to watch in tournaments.

 

[Dacvak]

MK is the B movie of fighting games. stiff and unresponsive controls, awful animations (well MK1 actually improved on that), boring AS FUUUUUCK to watch in tournaments.

Yeah that's basically what I figured. It's kind of always been in that category.

So much fun to casually play with the boys, though. Been loving the legacy kollection lately. Had a few great nights with some beers, bros, and brutalities.

 

[kevboard]

Yeah that's basically what I figured. It's kind of always been in that category.

So much fun to casually play with the boys, though. Been loving the legacy kollection lately. Had a few great nights with some beers, bros, and brutalities.

pro tip for crazy SHIT. play the SNES version of MK3, enable all cheat menus, turn on health regen, 2x health, fast uppercut recovery, unlock smoke...
SHIT IS WIIIILD, especially Kabal vs Kabal, or Smoke vs Kabal/Smoke vs Smoke

 

[Dacvak]

pro tip for crazy SHIT. play the SNES version of MK3, enable all cheat menus, turn on health regen, 2x health, fast uppercut recovery, unlock smoke...
SHIT IS WIIIILD, especially Kabal vs Kabal, or Smoke vs Kabal/Smoke vs Smoke

My brother. You just described my entire 90s.

 

[drotahorror]

It's honestly because they never made Darkstalkers 4.

And Killer Instinct should have dropped on PS5 this year for a little revival. I love watching KI tournaments.

 

[Miyazaki’s Slave]

As a life time fighting game player who started playing fighting games at Pizza Hut with Yie Ar Kungfu. I spent countless hours in arcades playing every fighting game released from the west coast to the east coast.

I get several new fighting games a year now, are they all bangers no. Is it better then the absolutely DESERT that existing after SF3 (praise be to the GOAT) collapsed the entire genera...yes it is.

In fact I chalk the success of fighting games from the last 10 years to providing us with the opportunity to play the "better games of yesterday" in a far superior environment than we ever had in arcades.

/end rant

 

[Loomy]

I honestly think Evo getting huge in the 2010s is what got fighting games to where it is now. For better and worse.

Both the ceiling and floor fucking dropped for a lot of games where it was just way to easy, and mastering it takes 0 effort, so you don't really feel like you "unlocked/acomplished" anything. And guess what? 2 million other people also mastered the easy af game, so playing competitive is now somehow both sweaty and unfulfilling.

 

[Punished Miku]

It literally regressed and its pretty much all the fault of the FGC.

2D fighting games are a joke. They were impressive in the early 90s but to think its the dominant type of game in the genre truly blows my mind. We advanced past this with Virtua Fighter 1 literally decades ago. I can't imagine enjoying being stuck on a flat 2D plane. Block up, block down. That's it. Execute retarded combos that are too long or have hyper limited execution windows to keep FGC people obsessed while they are stuck on a 2D plane forever. Cover every game in anime trash and you have the perfect vessel for alienating almost anyone outside of the FGC.

The only real fighting games at this point are Soul Calibur (which is apparently a dead series now, because of course it is), Tekken (which is a deeply flawed game and always has been), and the upcoming Virtua Fighter. Street Fighter is the same shit forever and Capcom never will have the balls to try a new 3D version of it ever. Dead or Alive died a DLC waifu death.

The whole genre literally rests on Soul Calibur and Virtua Fighter to do anything even slightly innovative or modern.

 

[Moonjt9]

Idk man, street fighter 6 is the best fighting game I've played since soul calibur 2, and marvel tokon looks like it will be really fun too. New virtua fighter looks sick as well.

I don't care about niche fighting games so as long as street fighter is good, I'm good.

 

[PeterBazooka]

Hasn't been a better time to be a fighting game fan imo. SF6, Marvel collection, cvs2, new Garou, new Virtual Fighter on the way .Not to mention arcsys adding rollback to older titles like Blazblue and Persona.

 

[bender]

I buy and play Street Fighter out of habit, but I can't say I enjoy 5 or 6 that much. The Capcom Fighting Collections have been a godsend and the only thing I can get my buddy to play. I wish I could get him to play VF5 Revo and I hope VF6 turns out great, but I have my doubts.

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

Tekken is in a bad state.
2KXO after years on years launched to meh because they didn't go onto consoles.
Soul caliber is dead.
Garou new title is dead.
MK as you said is bad.

Is SF6 actually good or just the least offensive of the bunch currently with a community behind it because pro players want those dollars. Take away the payout and would it even be this pushed? I doubt it.

Blazblue having other titles is fine but instead they completely abandoned the fighting games. For what?

Tekken got into a bad state at season 2, but it has been improving since
I don't play riot trash and never will
It's only dead until it isn't, you can just play SC6 until then.
SNK fighters never got to the high of KOF97, not even KOF13 got to that high, they've always had a much smaller audience than the rest, if you had some wild expectations for kof15 or garou that's on you.
MK has had a bad entry
SF6 is good
Sys:celes was well received though I haven't played it myself
Strive is good
Granblue is good
VF6 will probably be good
marvel tokon looks interesting
Avatar could be good
Invicible vs I'm looking forward to

Blazblue didn't "abandon fighting games", because they also make guilty gear, which has simply done better than blazblue, though who knows perhaps they are working on bringing blazblue into the 3d guilty gear style after they are done with marvel tokon.
(also they have zero to do with entropy effect, the only thing blazblue about it is that the developer licensed some characters from the IP for a game the developed and published themselves)

 

[NeverYouMind]

What do serious fighting game players think of modern Mortal Kombat? I more mean 11, and not MK1, since it seems like most people hate that.

I did just buy it on to play through casually on my switch 2, but holy crap that game looks bad on Switch. The fatalities aren't even fun to watch.

Mortal Kombat is not good in competitive sense. Only the gay furry wins the competitions since MKX. MK11 post-Aftermath is pretty great for casual play though.

It literally regressed and its pretty much all the fault of the FGC.

2D fighting games are a joke. They were impressive in the early 90s but to think its the dominant type of game in the genre truly blows my mind. We advanced past this with Virtua Fighter 1 literally decades ago. I can't imagine enjoying being stuck on a flat 2D plane. Block up, block down. That's it. Execute retarded combos that are too long or have hyper limited execution windows to keep FGC people obsessed while they are stuck on a 2D plane forever. Cover every game in anime trash and you have the perfect vessel for alienating almost anyone outside of the FGC.

The only real fighting games at this point are Soul Calibur (which is apparently a dead series now, because of course it is), Tekken (which is a deeply flawed game and always has been), and the upcoming Virtua Fighter. Street Fighter is the same shit forever and Capcom never will have the balls to try a new 3D version of it ever. Dead or Alive died a DLC waifu death.

The whole genre literally rests on Soul Calibur and Virtua Fighter to do anything even slightly innovative or modern.

Soul Calibur has been a shit show since IV. The latest instalment thought it was innovative to interrupt a match repeatedly to play their own version of rock, paper, scissors. Virtua Fighter is a niche within a niche. I love the series but even I cannot play it for long as reactivity requirements are draining. I play Dead or Alive 6 semi-regularly and I cannot say that it evolved in any tangible way beyond Dead or Alive 4's mechanics but I do enjoy its unique offerings.

The only innovations I have observed in the last decade were in Under Night In-Birth and Injustice 2 (both 2D games). The rest just remixed the same crap. No series of Street Fighter games is the same. That said they have been on a downward trajectory as far as gameplay design and freedom of playstyle since Street Fighter IV.

Tekken 8? Chaos. Strobe show of colors. 70% damage combos, wall Carrie's from mid screen.

Between its release and the TGA Final Fantasy shit show the game was crack. It streamlined a lot of things like chain throws and hit priority system. It was a return to form after the Tekken Tag Tournament 2 tag juggle and 2Desque Tekken Revolution retardation of Tekken 7 with guest IPs. They fucked it all up and continue to dig themselves deeper with every update since.

Smash Bros is the only fighting game worth playing.

If Smash had good netcode, it would be unstoppable.

Smash is not a fighting game. Nintendo still does not know how to create an infrastructure for online play.

P.S. The slow death of E-Sports sponsorship makes me hopeful that it goes the way of the dodo.

 

[Gamer_By_Proxy]

I'm married, the fighting games I play now is the eye roll, hesitate if asked if she looks fat in something, tell her to "calm down", etc.

 

[Variahunter]

Smash Bros is the only fighting game worth playing.

I hope you're not serious.
The only 2 SSB worth playing are 64 and Melee. Rest of the series aren't fighting games, they're party games.
But Melee is one of the most hardcore fighting game ever created.

There's plenty of incredible fighting games worth playing even today, with fightcade there's no limitations anymore.

 

[Jinzo Prime]

MK is the B movie of fighting games. stiff and unresponsive controls, awful animations (well MK1 actually improved on that), boring AS FUUUUUCK to watch in tournaments.

Netherrealm games suck so bad to watch in tournament, it's sad.

 

[NeverYouMind]

Netherrealm games suck so bad to watch in tournament, it's sad.

High level Ultimate Mortal Kombat 3 play is insane though.

 

[Jinzo Prime]

High level Ultimate Mortal Kombat 3 play is insane though.

Never seen it, I guess I'll check it out.

 

[Lambogenie]

Man, I used to say the Super/Turbo update formula was far better than live service. I stand by it.

 

[March Climber]

They catered to the retarded casuals and ruined it for themselves.

This is far, far from true. These companies catered to the sweats, EVO pros, and ladder climbers in the past decade.

The only thing you can claim catered to casuals in the past few years has been the introduction of the auto-combo/newbie controls, which was only made a thing because these franchises were suffering a slow bleed of sales and they wanted to patch it with a bandaid.

Casuals are still not sticking with fighting games and this has been largely discussed before. It's partially due to it being too late and the sweaty players simply taking over everything ruining fun, but the other aspect of this is that these fighting game devs stopped making other fun modes and stopped letting certain characters be different levels of broken.

That's what made the older games more fun. People played Tekken ball, people had fun spamming infinites with characters in Killer Instinct, people had fun unlocking secrets in the krypt, people had fun playing challenge mode in Soul Calibur, people liked quest mode in Tobal No. 1...hell, Rival Schools had tons of side content and broken balancing but people would rave about how fun it was whenever they played it.

The casuals aren't crying about constant balance patches . But you know who is? ...Exactly.

Fighting games used to cater to casuals. They stopped, chased e-sports, and now they are trying to course correct in odd ways to make sure their franchises don't die. Blaming any of this on casuals is very much misdirected anger.

 

[nial]

Smash Bros is the only fighting game worth playing.

Smash Bros. games after Melee aren't even worth playing.

 

[yurinka]

Has this genre been in a worse state than it currently is in?

The genre is better shape than ever has been (I've been in the genre since the late 80s).

Let's make a quick recap of the current state of the genre:

• Street Fighter is in better shape than ever has been.
• Arc System Works are better shape than ever have been with Tokon being super promising, their most recent Guilty Gear being their most succesful internal game ever and with Dragon Ball FighterZ being their most successful game ever.
• Tekken 8 is performing pretty well but not as great as Tekken 7 did.
• After having a huge success with MK11, MK1 seems to be relatively failing.
• SNK revived Fatal Fury with what pretty likely is the best selling game in the series (in nowadays context, continues being a niche compared with the top sellers).
• 2XKO is in early access but really promising.
• Invincible VS seems that despite bad American animations is very fun for Marvel vs Capcom or KI fans.
• Virtua Fighter seems it's going to have a great comeback with a great new title.
• Smash Ultimate (for those who count it as a fighting game, not me) did it better than ever.
• The weebs have several minor anime games, each one with their own nice community.
• There are a ton of cool classic games very well emulated in modern platforms compilated in collections.
• Most games have today a good or at least playable netcode.
• The tournaments scene and the FGC are bigger than ever.
• There are many whiny 'fans' claiming that whatever past game in his favorite series was better, as usual in every single game since the 90s, but that's nothing new or bad.

 

[Arsic]

The genre is better shape than ever has been (I've been in the genre since the late 80s).

Let's make a quick recap of the current state of the genre:

• Street Fighter is in better shape than ever has been.
• Arc System Works are better shape than ever have been with Tokon being super promising, their most recent Guilty Gear being their most succesful internal game ever and with Dragon Ball FighterZ being their most successful game ever.
• Tekken 8 is performing pretty well but not as great as Tekken 7 did.
• After having a huge success with MK11, MK1 seems to be relatively failing.
• SNK revived Fatal Fury with what pretty likely is the best selling game in the series (in nowadays context, continues being a niche compared with the top sellers).
• 2XKO is in early access but really promising.
• Invincible VS seems that despite bad American animations is very fun for Marvel vs Capcom or KI fans.
• Virtua Fighter seems it's going to have a great comeback with a great new title.
• Smash Ultimate (for those who count it as a fighting game, not me) did it better than ever.
• The weebs have several minor anime games, each one with their own nice community.
• There are a ton of cool classic games very well emulated in modern platforms compilated in collections.
• Most games have today a good or at least playable netcode.
• The tournaments scene and the FGC are bigger than ever.
• There are many whiny 'fans' claiming that whatever past game in his favorite series was better, as usual in every single game since the 90s, but that's nothing new or bad.

Disagree with most of the list.

I mean shit I went to steam charts to see what games across the spectrum have a solid player base and only ONE title has it, and it's SF6.

The rest is sub 1000 except tekken 8, some sub 100…

If one title keeps the genre alive is it even a genre?

 

[DaciaJC]

I miss Soulcalibur.

 

[JohnSpartanLee]

SF6 is great but its mental stack is so high you need to be unemployed or paid to play the game to be able to compete at high level (1800+ MR).

 

[Cakeboxer]

As a kid I used to love the genre, especially Street Fighter II and Primal Rage on the SNES + Mortal Kombat 4 on PC. But at some point it all became too much for me with those endless combos. Special moves, a few short three-hit combos and finishing moves- learning them and pulling them off was still fine. But anything beyond that is just not for me. I still watch the finishers on YouTube whenever a new Mortal Kombat comes out, though

 

[Icymanipulator]

GGStrive is great, but I have lost most of my interest in SF6 the drive system just makes the game feel so unlike SF to me.

I still mess around with it from time to time, but only because I grew up throwing hadokens and sonic booms so I get the itch every once in a while but it's nothing more then a casual interest at this point.

 

[archangelmorph]

SF6 is good
Tokkon looks awesome
2KXO looks really promising

 

[KiteGr]

Fighting games feel like Freemium crap these days you actually have to buy to play.

They are the most monetized genre in terms of DLCs. Even the actual Freemium crap at least pretend that everything is accessible by playing the game!
I gave up on them and I'm only buying "Complete Editions" after it's done monetizing.
Even still I remember buying DOA5 3 times on supposed "Complete Editions" on PS3 and PS4 just to find stuff and characters behind paywalls.

 

[Ceallach]

SF6 is really good.
Fatal Fury CotW is fantastic but SNK will never be mainstream in the west
Tekken 8 feels slow.
MK1 was trash but MK has rarely been a serious game.
Fighterz is somehow still going lol
New Marvel looks promising.
Lots of promise in the new VF

I think Fighting games are fine. Idk man, the early 00s were BLEAK. This feels nothing like that.

 

[Bernkastel]

Sadly Dead or Alive is dead and Koei Tecmo killed it.

 

[cireza]

Creativity is totally dead in the genre, and only sequels are green-lit. On top of this, nothing is better in terms of gameplay than games we were playing 20 years ago.

Totally dead genre.

Hopefully the next Virtua Fighter will take some risks and move the genre a bit forward.

 

[Kyo]

I've been a huge fighting game fan since the early '90s, starting with SFII then on to KoF, SamSho and VF.

I think the genre has been shaped by a number of bad influences over the decades:
* The "it's not worth playing if you can't unlock anything" mindset popularized by Tekken.
* The "press A for awesome" approach popularized by Tekken.
* The drive to make things welcoming and winnable to button mashers without a clue, including PvP matches (this got really bad with SC).
* The focus on complex systems and tiny adjustments that only matter in tournament-level play (this is more from the last ~15 years, I guess).
* The ever more complicated (multi-)meter systems (this got really bad with SF IV).
* The annoyingly increasing focus on combos. No, I don't wanna feel like a puppy trained to pull off complex controller motions every time I hit an "opener".
* Air juggles. Ugh. The whole idea is stupid to begin with. Nobody falls to the ground long enough to catch multiple hits on the way down. And gameplay-wise it ruins the usual risk/reward system as even rather risk-free moves can end up in combos that take a massive chunk of your opponent's health while he can't do anything about it. There is nothing good about this.

All of that crap is obvious when you play one of the big modern titles. I really wish we could get a modern title that focuses more on the basics with a real sense of progress.

What should've been explored instead:
* Samurai Shodown had weapons that you could lose and then pick back up, adding a great strategic element. Only Soul Edge picked up on that (a bit half-heartedly). If the only result of fighters having weapons in your game is that some are much slower or have wider reach, you're really not trying hard enough.
* Interactive environments. VF has been exploring this a bit, with uneven floors in VF3 and wall throws in later games. This is the right direction. DoA did it more superficially with a focus of cinematic moments. It would be great if we could get a game that feels like one of these Jackie Chan fight scenes with all kinds of objects being utilized for attacks.
* Move-specific block animations instead of generic ones with limbs going through bodies because the animation just continues playing anyway.

 

[Saber]

I still to this day play SF4. Great game that respects your learning process.
The rest? Brain dead games dumbed down because little John wants to play but find hard and don't want to train.

 

[Pejo]

Granblue VS Rising is the best fighting game since SF4. The game is built to turn novices into intermediate and beyond players just by how its systems work, the characters are all unique and have that whimsy that you rarely see in designs/movesets these days, many archetypes, lots of training that's actually interesting, great single player content and side collection content, etc. Its biggest problem is the small playerbase because online tends to be the same 5-6 players per session. Absolutely high quality game though.

Their system with specials is so damn novel, I'd love to see more games pick it up. Essentially, they map most of a characters specials to a single button + direction, or you can do the traditional motions (think SF fireball/dragon punch motions). Each move has a short cooldown before you can use it again, so you have to plan ahead and you can't spam without making yourself wide open. The cooldown itself is slightly longer if you're using the one-button method opposed to the full inputs, so it encourages you to learn, but doesn't punish you if you're bad at inputs or new to the genre. In addition, most specials can be powered up with meter to give them better properties (more hits, stronger, less recovery, more travel, invincibility, etc.) It's just such a good way to put people on a semi-level playing field and encourage learning.

Not to mention it has such diversity of play. Neutral, rushdown, trap play, etc, and all are viable. It's a Japanese fighting game, so of course there are combos, but even if you can't combo well or consistently, the damage scales properly and is front loaded so you can still win matches just by playing the basics well.

But yea, to your point OP, I agree. In general the magic is gone. Too many people concentrate on tier lists and ultra top level play and nobody's willing to lose a few rounds or play just to have fun. Not sure how that can be solved tbh, I'm guilty of getting pissed at a particularly painful loss and Alt+F4'ing the game. The best time I ever had in fighting games was as a teen in a room full of friends, playing like shit but having fun, which is hard to replicate online.